Labor Shortage

[RiverDog]

National Guard is good for putting down civil unrest...but the many encounters/situations our police handle?

I would imagine that the National Guard wouldn't be responding to calls rather assisting and acting as backups vs. walking a beat, but you're right, they are not trained for conventional police work. The union chief is likely in hot water and is likely going to get de-certified as he's explicitly calling for what amounts to a work stoppage and is placing public safety in danger.

Seattle's mayor put in her budget for counsel review and the counsel is already saying they want less than half for the police. Seattles Chief of police said that would severely hurt training new officers to replace those who have already left the force...but hey..Seattle is looking for new business to come to the city...hope you feel safe. I guess the city counsel would think even warehouse security would deter our growing crime rates.

Yea, Seattle is a frigging mess, shows you what you get when you let liberals control the agenda. Sure glad I don't live there.

[Hawktawk]

Cops are some of the biggest resisters although it’s the leading cause of death among them by a mile . As for losses in the medical community for every freedom fighting anti vax idiot quitting their job there’s at least 2 burned out ICU workers tired of watching unvaxed idiots die that are quitting . When federal mandates officially kick in we will see how the anti vax idiots like flipping burgers . My biggest peeve is these religious exemptions some companies are issuing to everyone . They will burn hotter than Charles Manson . Not sure what religion espouses selfishness, stupidity ,aware disbelieving science and disobeying government . As a former pastoral major who’s preached the word and read the book many times I know what it says .
Greater love hath no one than to lay down their life for another . In as much as you have done it for the least of my brethren you’ve done it for me . Love your neibor as yourself . Render unto Caesar what is his and unto the lord what is the lords . Of those who have been granted much will much be required. There is very little about a self aggrandizement or self promotion in any religion I’m aware of . Looking at people like this police chief actively encouraging officers to endanger themselves and the citizens just shows we have become a funny farm .

We’re America . We can adapt . Bring in the guard temporarily . Drop testing truck drivers for small amounts of THC and probably port workers and lots of other industries . Hire less workers. pay more get more qualified workers and see possibly improved productivity compared to minimum wage idiots . I’ve proved it works long before Covid .salaried Managers plan on long hours . It’s the new normal.

[RiverDog]

More labor shortage problems:

WSF plans to reduce sailings on nearly all of its routes starting Oct. 16 due to "severe" staffing shortages brought on by COVID-19 cases, quarantines and a shortage of qualified maritime workers as many WSF staff retire.

System-wide crew shortages have plagued the state ferry system since earlier this year. The cancellations of hundreds of sailings, even in the last two weeks, has stranded countless passengers and left riders with few options.

Nearly every route will be down at least one boat to accommodate the dwindling number of crew members. The only crossings not impacted by the new cuts are Point Defiance and Port Townsend.

https://www.king5.com/article/news/loca ... fc4c23d350

Anyone still think that all will be back to normal once the pandemic ends?

[Hawktawk]

No. It’s the new normal . My guess is a lot of these ferry employees making great money with great retirement and benefits will recalculate when the checks start bouncing and the various government agencies and major employers will wind up de hiring lots of them . But it’s a new reality . Build kiosks . Self driving trucks. Robotics . Lead the world. Too bad we didn’t do it the last year of Cheetos term in that critical period of time . Screwed the whole planet .

[RiverDog]

Cops are some of the biggest resisters although it’s the leading cause of death among them by a mile . As for losses in the medical community for every freedom fighting anti vax idiot quitting their job there’s at least 2 burned out ICU workers tired of watching unvaxed idiots die that are quitting . When federal mandates officially kick in we will see how the anti vax idiots like flipping burgers . My biggest peeve is these religious exemptions some companies are issuing to everyone . They will burn hotter than Charles Manson . Not sure what religion espouses selfishness, stupidity ,aware disbelieving science and disobeying government . As a former pastoral major who’s preached the word and read the book many times I know what it says .
Greater love hath no one than to lay down their life for another . In as much as you have done it for the least of my brethren you’ve done it for me . Love your neibor as yourself . Render unto Caesar what is his and unto the lord what is the lords . Of those who have been granted much will much be required. There is very little about a self aggrandizement or self promotion in any religion I’m aware of . Looking at people like this police chief actively encouraging officers to endanger themselves and the citizens just shows we have become a funny farm.

I'm not real well qualified to speak to religious exemptions as I'm not a deeply religious person, but I do know that if you're a practicing Christian that it's going to be damn difficult to find a passage in the Bible that would support not getting the vaccine.

An interesting saga is playing out in Pullman where WSU head football coach Nick Rolovich has applied for a religious exemption from the vaccine mandate that expires this weekend:

To continue coaching, Rolovich needs three things to happen: have his exemption request decided upon (which is no sure thing); have it approved; and if that happens, have his supervisor, WSU Athletic Director Pat Chun, determine that Rolovich can effectively do his job while keeping the public safe.

WSU employees were encouraged to make exemption requests by Oct. 4, but there is no guarantee that all requests will be processed by Monday. WSU employees still waiting for their exemption request to be ruled upon when the mandate takes effect will be unable to work until it is decided upon — and approved.

https://www.chronline.com/stories/with- ... eek,275374

We’re America . We can adapt . Bring in the guard temporarily . Drop testing truck drivers for small amounts of THC and probably port workers and lots of other industries . Hire less workers. pay more get more qualified workers and see possibly improved productivity compared to minimum wage idiots . I’ve proved it works long before Covid .salaried Managers plan on long hours . It’s the new normal.

I don't think it's that simple. There's not that many truck drivers that are let go due to small amounts of THC. Paying people more will encourage some to leave lower paying jobs for higher paying ones, but there's no one to backfill their vacancy.

We're going to have to get used to major inconveniences, such as those that live in the Puget Sound area that rely on the ferry system are experiencing. Get used to shortages, longer wait times, and more expensive products.

[c_hawkbob]

Not buying the vaccine mandate effect on the labor shortage as anything other than a talking point from the political right. Virtually every entity effected by the mandates is reporting 98% or better vaccination rates. They're just separating some of the chaff.

The mandates are posing a big problem for businesses and institutions simply because many, including hospitals, are already struggling with filling positions and adding mandates to the equation complicates their problem, but I agree that it probably has a minimal effect on the overall labor supply.

However, I will take issue with the claim that "virtually every entity affected by the mandate is reporting 98% vaccination rates". Although they are somewhat effective, they're not anywhere near 98%. I just got through reading this week old article on the status of our armed forces:

For instance, 90% of the active-duty Navy is fully vaccinated, whereas just 72% of the Marine Corps is, the data show, even though both services share a Nov. 28 deadline. In the Air Force, more than 60,000 personnel have just three weeks to meet the Defense Department’s most ambitious deadline.

https://www.stripes.com/covid/2021-10-1 ... 91964.html

In Chicago, where homicides are on the rise, the head of their police union is urging his members to defy the mandate, which expires today, claiming that half of the officers will not show up for duty if they try to enforce it:

Chicago Police Union president John Catanzara has urged officers to ignore the midnight deadline to report their vaccine status to the city. If the city tries to punish officers for not complying, only half will show up to patrol city streets, Catanzara predicted.

On Friday she (Chicago mayor) took matters a step further, announcing the city’s Law Department has filed legal action seeking court intervention against the FOP and Catanzara “for engaging in, supporting, and encouraging a work stoppage or strike.” The union is not allowed to strike.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/ch ... uxbndlbing

There's even talk of calling in the National Guard to take the place of police officers that refuse the vaccine, and mind you, this is a liberal big city in a deep blue state. Although I fully support them, the mandates are having a significant effect on businesses and institutions.

I stand corrected, I should have said corporations (I went with entities because I wanted to include hospitals), military and police are traditionally pretty solidly Republican, which explains their statistical aberration.

[RiverDog]

I stand corrected, I should have said corporations (I went with entities because I wanted to include hospitals), military and police are traditionally pretty solidly Republican, which explains their statistical aberration.

I've seen some airlines, like United, that have reached as high as 98% compliance, but other corporations? I saw that Tyson, a big employer in my area, is at 91%, but there's a lot of large companies, like McDonald's and Walmart, that are only requiring it for their office workers and not their store employees.

Other companies such as Walmart, Disney, and McDonald's have issued vaccine requirements but only for office staff and have stopped short at the mandate for frontline workers.

https://www.thestreet.com/business-of-c ... ccinations

And in your old stomping ground, hardly a bastion of conservativism, Boeing has kicked up a hornet's nest with their vaccination requirement:

EVERETT, Wash. (Reuters) -Waving signs like "coercion is not consent," and "stop the mandate," some 200 Boeing Co employees and others staged a protest on Friday over the planemaker's COVID-19 vaccine requirement for U.S. workers.

https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/boe ... 26431.html

Politics is obviously a factor in vaccine hesitancy, but not the only one. I can assure you that my former employer is NOT solidly Republican yet they can't get their vaccination rates in their processing facilities above 50% despite offering a $150 bonus. It's truly a sad situation.

[Aseahawkfan]

Not buying the vaccine mandate effect on the labor shortage as anything other than a talking point from the political right. Virtually every entity effected by the mandates is reporting 98% or better vaccination rates. They're just separating some of the chaff.

It is merely one of many possible factors affecting the overall situation. I would not count it as high on the list, but it is real and not politically driven as some of the largest groups avoiding vaccination is Americans of African descent who mostly vote Democrat and a certain segment of Republicans that are likely strongly in the low income bracket or very uneducated and into conspiracy theories. It crosses the political divide.

They shut down some school bus routes in Seattle, a 100 or so, due to having to let workers go due to the vaccine mandates. The police and Department of Corrections are going to be short a lot of people if they let them go due to vaccine mandates. At least one fire department has unified their workers in refusing the vaccine mandate. I'm not sure how far the union lawsuits have gone or what side these agencies unions are going to fall on.

But I wouldn't think the lower wage worker labor issues are due to vaccine mandates as most of the restaurant and service industry isn't mandating vaccines yet. Though I'm not sure about airlines yet.

The entire labor situation and supply chain problems are multifarious problems with no quick solution. It's going to take time to sort it all out.

[Aseahawkfan]

The U.S. Social Security Administration said Wednesday that it will boost the cost-of-living adjustment for benefits in 2022 by 5.9% -- the most in nearly four decades, as rising inflation puts a big dent in the purchasing power of those on fixed incomes.

Inflation is another factor to deal with.

There is a tremendous amount going on. No one is currently able to predict how this will play out. It will be years before anything you predict will even be known. And even longer than that given how companies are building technology specifically to decrease their reliance on labor.

[Aseahawkfan]

Yeah this right here^^^^^^Top heavy compensation which has ballooned obscenely since the 60s and a stagnant minimum wage (which stagnates the whole pay scale). I find it sort of humorous all these people who were gonna go bankrupt if the minimum wage goes up suddenly are willing to pay well above minimum to get help. Its funny in a way to see these sweat shop owners scream bloody murder about 300 extra dollars to the people they have stiffed their entire time in business. Meanwhile the Fed made a commitment to invest AT LEAST120 BILLION PER MONTH into the markets during the pandemic which is over 2 TRILLION DOLLARS into the markets. Then we learn the people involved in administering the biggest welfare for the rich's program ever were trading in the stocks they were boosting. Now they are giving the signal they will be pulling back on this stimulus well after the 300 for the little guy went away.

I agree with the take about people moving up from service work into better jobs. I think more of these jobs will open up as the boomers retire. And speaking of labor shortages they will be made far worse as the average boomer with the old school work ethic and skill goes away. I'm 62 and gonna have to do something for a while longer but at my age wracked with arthritis I can outwork any 3 of the employees we have. During Covid at age 60 I maintained 140 acres of golf BY MYSELF in excellent condition during the 2 month shutdown. plenty of 15 hour days riding multiple machines etc . Fortunately it wasn't July and August but point being when I leave they aren't replacing me with 1 guy.

I always hear "anyone's replaceable" Yeah you can throw a body at anything but having spent 36 years in the biz I have never met anyone like me, anyone who could replace me in this industry. There's lots of old school boomers like me that will go away. I cant wait. How about the people screaming about labor shortages and 300 dollars want us to erase the starving Haitians on the border who want to work? Frankly America could solve a lot of problems if they would come out of their god damn corners and think.

I know some don't want to admit this but companies have worked immensely hard to increase the size of the labor pool to reduce wages aka labor costs. Immigration, outsourcing, automation, and the like have all put downward pressure on wages.

In a supply-demand market, labor shortages are good for the worker in the same way labor surpluses are good for businesses. Same as any shortage or surplus is positive for a particular group and negative for another. Housing right now the shortage is positive for sellers and negative for buyers.

Nothing increases wages and benefits faster than a labor shortage. I hope workers take advantage while they can. This is how market economics workers.

[RiverDog]

I know some don't want to admit this but companies have worked immensely hard to increase the size of the labor pool to reduce wages aka labor costs. Immigration, outsourcing, automation, and the like have all put downward pressure on wages.

In a supply-demand market, labor shortages are good for the worker in the same way labor surpluses are good for businesses. Same as any shortage or surplus is positive for a particular group and negative for another. Housing right now the shortage is positive for sellers and negative for buyers.

Nothing increases wages and benefits faster than a labor shortage. I hope workers take advantage while they can. This is how market economics workers.

Yes, companies aren't standing still regarding the labor shortage. One of the things about rising wages is that it makes automation easier for a company to cost justify. Companies finance capital projects based on the amount of annual savings they can recoup from the investment. If the annual labor expense of a certain job that last year was $250,000 per year to replace a worker with a machine suddenly rises to $300,000 per year, then it's easier to justify the installation of a labor saving device.

All workers should be taking advantage of this labor shortage. Even if you're in a job that you like, you should be reminding your boss that you could easily get another higher paying job and use that fact to leverage a raise. I'm hoping that the shortage results in greater retirement benefits and less reliance on SS as a means of retirement income.

[RiverDog]

The U.S. Social Security Administration said Wednesday that it will boost the cost-of-living adjustment for benefits in 2022 by 5.9% -- the most in nearly four decades, as rising inflation puts a big dent in the purchasing power of those on fixed incomes.

Inflation is another factor to deal with.

There is a tremendous amount going on. No one is currently able to predict how this will play out. It will be years before anything you predict will even be known. And even longer than that given how companies are building technology specifically to decrease their reliance on labor.

So exactly what is it that I'm predicting? All I'm saying is that the labor shortage that we are dealing with today is going to be something that we're going to have to learn to live with for the foreseeable future. The pandemic didn't create the problem, it accelerated it. It will remain with us long after the pandemic has past. You're right, it will take years for companies to respond by utilizing technology to decrease their reliance on labor. And in the meantime, the consumer will have to deal with the consequences of having to wait those years for various industries to modernize and adapt to the new environment.

Inflation is going to hurt people on fixed income. Yes, they gave SS recipients a 5.9% raise, but the cost of the types of goods they buy are going up at a faster rate than the overall inflation rate. Plus they haven't determined the Medicare premium increase yet. All SS recipients have their Medicare premiums deducted from their SS checks automatically. Those poor suckers that are relying solely on SS for their retirement income are going to be hurting. Look for more old people flipping hamburgers again.

[RiverDog]

It (vaccine mandates) is merely one of many possible factors affecting the overall situation. I would not count it as high on the list, but it is real and not politically driven as some of the largest groups avoiding vaccination is Americans of African descent who mostly vote Democrat and a certain segment of Republicans that are likely strongly in the low income bracket or very uneducated and into conspiracy theories. It crosses the political divide.

I agree completely. Politics is just one component of vaccine hesitancy. Race, ethnicity, education, and age are all part of the equation.

But I wouldn't think the lower wage worker labor issues are due to vaccine mandates as most of the restaurant and service industry isn't mandating vaccines yet. Though I'm not sure about airlines yet.

For the most part, companies that employ lower wage jobs aren't mandating vaccines to those workers. As previously discussed, there's no one to backfill a vacancy in a low wage job so companies are extremely reluctant to impose mandates that might cause a large turnover. Many if not most of those jobs are occupied by minorities and the uneducated, groups that are large components in the vaccine hesitancy equation. A lower wage job is easier to give up. Many didn't count on it as a long term occupation anyway, just something to hold them over until something better came along.

Airlines don't employ very many low wage workers so it should be no surprise that they are amongst the highest vaccinated industries.

[Aseahawkfan]

Yes, companies aren't standing still regarding the labor shortage. One of the things about rising wages is that it makes automation easier for a company to cost justify. Companies finance capital projects based on the amount of annual savings they can recoup from the investment. If the annual labor expense of a certain job that last year was $250,000 per year to replace a worker with a machine suddenly rises to $300,000 per year, then it's easier to justify the installation of a labor saving device.

All workers should be taking advantage of this labor shortage. Even if you're in a job that you like, you should be reminding your boss that you could easily get another higher paying job and use that fact to leverage a raise. I'm hoping that the shortage results in greater retirement benefits and less reliance on SS as a means of retirement income.

May be why we have all these stories of people quitting. If labor were in a surplus and jobs hard to find, people will hang on to even crap jobs longer. Back when the 2008 crash happened, we had a bunch of high quality workers that we wouldn't normally have had due to the lack of jobs.

[RiverDog]

Yes, companies aren't standing still regarding the labor shortage. One of the things about rising wages is that it makes automation easier for a company to cost justify. Companies finance capital projects based on the amount of annual savings they can recoup from the investment. If the annual labor expense of a certain job that last year was $250,000 per year to replace a worker with a machine suddenly rises to $300,000 per year, then it's easier to justify the installation of a labor saving device.

All workers should be taking advantage of this labor shortage. Even if you're in a job that you like, you should be reminding your boss that you could easily get another higher paying job and use that fact to leverage a raise. I'm hoping that the shortage results in greater retirement benefits and less reliance on SS as a means of retirement income.

May be why we have all these stories of people quitting. If labor weren't in a surplus and jobs hard to find, people will hang on to even crap jobs longer. Back when the 2008 crash happened, we had a bunch of high quality workers that we wouldn't normally have had due to the lack of jobs.

Plus we've given them 3 stimulus payments and extremely generous unemployment benefits. They aren't desperate.

Speaking from my experience of having worked with low wage earners, those folks are used to being laid off and out of work. It's not novel to them like it is with people in higher paying jobs. They don't fear it like others might. Take me for example. I'm a college grad and since leaving college, I changed employers just once in 40 years. Getting fired or laid off was horrifying for me to think about.

[Aseahawkfan]

So exactly what is it that I'm predicting? All I'm saying is that the labor shortage that we are dealing with today is going to be something that we're going to have to learn to live with for the foreseeable future. The pandemic didn't create the problem, it accelerated it. It will remain with us long after the pandemic has past. You're right, it will take years for companies to respond by utilizing technology to decrease their reliance on labor. And in the meantime, the consumer will have to deal with the consequences of having to wait those years for various industries to modernize and adapt to the new environment.

I don't agree with the part about the general labor shortage maintaining at this level. This is all very weird.

Take Seattle for example. I work in the heart of Seattle. This place isn't near as busy as it was pre-pandemic. Multiple restaurants have closed. Office buildings are still empty. The bus traffic is still lower than it ever has been in the entire time I worked in Seattle. Pre-pandemic, this place was crawling with people and very active. On the weekends when I was going home, the clubs were bumping music, restaurants and bars were full. The place was packed on weekends. Sporting events were packed. Show as the 5th Ave Theater and Benaroya Hall all the time. Lots of huge conventions. All shut down or way less than before. It's picking up, but nowhere near what it was. This isn't occurring just here, but everywhere except maybe places like Florida, Texas, and Kansas.

Now after we open back up, suddenly there are tons of shortages in local clinics, restaurants, airlines, and the like that weren't there pre-pandemic even with the labor shortage. These were not jobs held by old people retiring. I'm not sure where the people who occupied these jobs are which is why I listed the app economy and living at home with parents as some factors in this labor shortage.

It's a very strange situation. I don't expect to live with this level of a shortage into the future. I see it more as we shut down a ton of stuff, furloughed or laid off a ton of workers, pumped unprecedented stimulus into the economy, and took all types of measures never done before in a modern global economy. You don't get to just turn it back on like flipping a light switch expecting everyone to come back like nothing happened. So we're getting this very strange slow ramp up of labor with lots of shifting by workers and companies and figuring out how to get things going again. Once we're able I expect us to bring in more people and fill lots of spots using immigration as we have done before once we get our house in order and see what this mess looks like once we fully ramp back up. Right now, this environment is very strange and unprecedented.

I'm 100% certain the number of jobs in the city have not returned. I know that from just looking around compared to pre-COVID. How many jobs shifted to working from home? How many companies moved from the city to somewhere else? How active are factories? How many people are still riding out unemployment even without the stimulus bonus because they're waiting to get called back?

This is not at all a good picture of the level of labor that will exist once this gets sorted out. I don't expect the shortages you're predicting once we fully ramp back up. I mainly think it's not as easy as people think to turn all of this back on and get moving again. We're seeing the results of turning so much of the economy off and now trying to turn as much back on as fast as possible in an environment that had so much money pumped into it causing this inflation. Until that is sorted out, I don't expect the doom and gloom you're painting of short clinics with tons of people trying to get access.

This labor situation seems to be occurring worldwide, not just here. It is for the same pandemic related reasons.

[Hawktawk]

Here in America I don’t know the exact number but a larger than usual number of people are going out early at 62 due to the pandemic . It’s not much but a 400 a week backstop and maybe something part time is enough bit to have to slave away . Many of these people worked in service industries . Clearly there will be a worker shortage that will only accelerate . In the supply chain trucks are in the biggest demand with a shortage of 70k drivers . Those who didn’t quit are hauling 7 days a week and buried with phones blowing up. We may need robotic trucks and they are already being developed . Ag tractors as well as turf mowing equipment for golf courses . We need millions of immigrants . I always hear there’s too much resistance from red necks . Ironically my best friend , a multimillionaire Resturant owner with a partner of 7 McDonald’s constantly complains they are 150 employees short and were before the pandemic . But he despises Biden and screams about the border. He’s also retiring in a few weeks at 62. But when I tied the two issues together for him it took him back a peg . When I pointed out these are desperate people who will separate from their kids hoping at least they can make it to America . Why don’t we have a deft enough politician to be able to do that ? Link the issues in the same context . A public that can’t get their Amazon stuff for Christmas , supply chain blowing up inflation might be receptive . It won’t be Biden as he can’t read off a teleprompter . America needs a charismatic leader and I really don’t see one on the horizon in either party

[RiverDog]

I don't agree with the part about the general labor shortage maintaining at this level. This is all very weird.

Take Seattle for example. I work in the heart of Seattle. This place isn't near as busy as it was pre-pandemic. Multiple restaurants have closed. Office buildings are still empty. The bus traffic is still lower than it ever has been in the entire time I worked in Seattle. Pre-pandemic, this place was crawling with people and very active. On the weekends when I was going home, the clubs were bumping music, restaurants and bars were full. The place was packed on weekends. Sporting events were packed. Show as the 5th Ave Theater and Benaroya Hall all the time. Lots of huge conventions. All shut down or way less than before. It's picking up, but nowhere near what it was. This isn't occurring just here, but everywhere except maybe places like Florida, Texas, and Kansas.

Now after we open back up, suddenly there are tons of shortages in local clinics, restaurants, airlines, and the like that weren't there pre-pandemic even with the labor shortage. These were not jobs held by old people retiring. I'm not sure where the people who occupied these jobs are which is why I listed the app economy and living at home with parents as some factors in this labor shortage.

It's a very strange situation. I don't expect to live with this level of a shortage into the future. I see it more as we shut down a ton of stuff, furloughed or laid off a ton of workers, pumped unprecedented stimulus into the economy, and took all types of measures never done before in a modern global economy. You don't get to just turn it back on like flipping a light switch expecting everyone to come back like nothing happened. So we're getting this very strange slow ramp up of labor with lots of shifting by workers and companies and figuring out how to get things going again. Once we're able I expect us to bring in more people and fill lots of spots using immigration as we have done before once we get our house in order and see what this mess looks like once we fully ramp back up. Right now, this environment is very strange and unprecedented.

I'm 100% certain the number of jobs in the city have not returned. I know that from just looking around compared to pre-COVID. How many jobs shifted to working from home? How many companies moved from the city to somewhere else? How active are factories? How many people are still riding out unemployment even without the stimulus bonus because they're waiting to get called back?

This is not at all a good picture of the level of labor that will exist once this gets sorted out. I don't expect the shortages you're predicting once we fully ramp back up. I mainly think it's not as easy as people think to turn all of this back on and get moving again. We're seeing the results of turning so much of the economy off and now trying to turn as much back on as fast as possible in an environment that had so much money pumped into it causing this inflation. Until that is sorted out, I don't expect the doom and gloom you're painting of short clinics with tons of people trying to get access.

This labor situation seems to be occurring worldwide, not just here. It is for the same pandemic related reasons.

I didn't say that the labor shortage would maintain at its current level. There's no doubt that the pandemic has thrown a huge monkey wrench into the labor market and that to some degree, it will right itself in the course of time. But you're kidding yourself if you think that it will return even to pre pandemic levels. The pandemic pushed a lot of people into early retirement. They aren't coming back. The shutdown forced many to leave their comfort zone and into other, higher paying jobs. Restaurants can't get their waitresses and cooks to come back even though they have plenty of customers. The stimulus and unemployment benefits allowed them to go back to school and get more training, gave them time to ponder their futures, forced their hand. School enrollments have declined. There aren't enough high school students to fill all the entry level positions that are open. Plus new jobs are projected to be created at a rate of about .7% a year.

As you noted, it's going to take time for companies to adjust. And in the meantime, we're going to have to deal with canceled ferry sailings, clinics that are only open on certain days, we'll have to endure shortages of food stuffs that require cheap labor to produce, and most of all, have to deal with rising prices.

[RiverDog]

Here in America I don’t know the exact number but a larger than usual number of people are going out early at 62 due to the pandemic . It’s not much but a 400 a week backstop and maybe something part time is enough bit to have to slave away . Many of these people worked in service industries . Clearly there will be a worker shortage that will only accelerate . In the supply chain trucks are in the biggest demand with a shortage of 70k drivers . Those who didn’t quit are hauling 7 days a week and buried with phones blowing up. We may need robotic trucks and they are already being developed . Ag tractors as well as turf mowing equipment for golf courses . We need millions of immigrants . I always hear there’s too much resistance from red necks . Ironically my best friend , a multimillionaire Resturant owner with a partner of 7 McDonald’s constantly complains they are 150 employees short and were before the pandemic . But he despises Biden and screams about the border. He’s also retiring in a few weeks at 62. But when I tied the two issues together for him it took him back a peg . When I pointed out these are desperate people who will separate from their kids hoping at least they can make it to America . Why don’t we have a deft enough politician to be able to do that ? Link the issues in the same context . A public that can’t get their Amazon stuff for Christmas , supply chain blowing up inflation might be receptive . It won’t be Biden as he can’t read off a teleprompter . America needs a charismatic leader and I really don’t see one on the horizon in either party

Yup, 10-4 to all of that. You're making my point for me.

But there's too many people like that restaurant owner friend of yours that you eluded to. They can't put 2 and 2 together and see that our labor shortage requires low paying jobs to be backfilled by someone, and if we don't have enough young, native born adults entering the market to fill those jobs, who else are you going to get if you don't bring in immigrants?

There's too many people that have such an intense fear and paranoia of people that don't look or talk like them, a fear that Trump drew out and made them think that they are normal emotions that are shared by their peers. If the immigrants were at the Canadian border, white and spoke English, they wouldn't raise an eyebrow. You can't reason with those types until they deal with that fear. I don't see that changing overnight.

That was by far my biggest problem with Trump, his Demonization of immigrants. He filled people up with so much misinformation and outright lies about immigrants that it's going to take decades for people to overcome their paranoia. Now our economy needs them more than ever.

[NorthHawk]

Trump seemed to prey upon those who fear they will no longer be in the majority - specifically white bigots and of course the requisite neo nazis and others who are
primed to take advantage of their fears. It's happening in all free countries to some extent from electing politicians who believe in an "illiberal democracy" to having
pockets of anti immigrant support. In our latest federal election we had a far right party that got more votes than the Green Party. The didn't get any seats in Parliament
but they did get just less than a million votes.

[RiverDog]

Trump seemed to prey upon those who fear they will no longer be in the majority - specifically white bigots and of course the requisite neo nazis and others who are primed to take advantage of their fears. It's happening in all free countries to some extent from electing politicians who believe in an "illiberal democracy" to having pockets of anti immigrant support. In our latest federal election we had a far right party that got more votes than the Green Party. The didn't get any seats in Parliament but they did get just less than a million votes.

It's mainly the under educated and less intelligent (I'm reluctant to say stupid) folks that harbor those feelings. They are naturally insecure because they are more vulnerable, their jobs easier to replace, and they suffer from an inferiority complex because of their shortcomings. They rationalize their failings by Demonizing others, including women. They employ a subconscious ego defense mechanism to protect their self image: It's their fault that I'm picking chit with the chickens, not mine. They lack the ability to comprehend and reconcile differences in language and cultures. Because they tend to be of lower income and fewer means, they are less likely to have traveled to foreign countries. We fear most what we understand least. And yes, it's not limited to Americans.

[RiverDog]

Anyone still want to argue that there isn't a labor shortage?

An employee shortage with the WSDOT could make winter travel extremely hazardous for Eastern WA drivers.

https://keyw.com/wsdot-employee-shortag ... jHYZKNeEzU

These aren't minimum wage jobs or migrants picking apples, they're good paying government jobs that have outstanding benefits and used to be hard to come by, but they can't find enough drivers to man the snowplows.

[Hawktawk]

I’ve heard 77 k truck driving jobs were wiped out by the new drug testing laws passed in 20. Half were for weed. That’s ridiculous . Time for a reconing america

[Aseahawkfan]

Anyone still want to argue that there isn't a labor shortage?

An employee shortage with the WSDOT could make winter travel extremely hazardous for Eastern WA drivers.

https://keyw.com/wsdot-employee-shortag ... jHYZKNeEzU

These aren't minimum wage jobs or migrants picking apples, they're good paying government jobs that have outstanding benefits and used to be hard to come by, but they can't find enough drivers to man the snowplows.

I didn't hear of anyone claiming there isn't a labor shortage. Not sure why you're even making a statement no one is disputing.

The only disagreement is why it is occurring, how long it will last, and what's going to happen with the economy ongoing with all the crap going on which you seem to only be touching the tip of an iceberg. We have so much crap going in the economy right now that foreseeing how it will play out is like seeing through a mountain.

Inflation, labor shortage, supply chain issues, COVID protocols differing depending on nation, housing supply shortage, tax shortages, massive debt, Fed keeping interest rates low until end of 2022 keeping liquidity high likely leading to more inflation, cryptocurrency regulation, spending bills, upcoming 2022 elections. I think things are going to be absolutely nutty next year given the sheer amount of economic issues affecting the nation.

And you're focused on arguing your particular view of the labor shortage while we have far more than a labor shortage to worry about economically.

[RiverDog]

Anyone still want to argue that there isn't a labor shortage?

An employee shortage with the WSDOT could make winter travel extremely hazardous for Eastern WA drivers.

https://keyw.com/wsdot-employee-shortag ... jHYZKNeEzU

These aren't minimum wage jobs or migrants picking apples, they're good paying government jobs that have outstanding benefits and used to be hard to come by, but they can't find enough drivers to man the snowplows.

I didn't hear of anyone claiming there isn't a labor shortage. Not sure why you're even making a statement no one is disputing.[

The only disagreement is why it is occurring, how long it will last, and what's going to happen with the economy ongoing with all the crap going on which you seem to only be touching the tip of an iceberg. We have so much crap going in the economy right now that foreseeing how it will play out is like seeing through a mountain.

Inflation, labor shortage, supply chain issues, COVID protocols differing depending on nation, housing supply shortage, tax shortages, massive debt, Fed keeping interest rates low until end of 2022 keeping liquidity high likely leading to more inflation, cryptocurrency regulation, spending bills, upcoming 2022 elections. I think things are going to be absolutely nutty next year given the sheer amount of economic issues affecting the nation.

And you're focused on arguing your particular view of the labor shortage while we have far more than a labor shortage to worry about economically.

I wasn't directing my comments at you or any other regular poster. Some people, perhaps not in present company, are under the impression that the problem is that we're not paying people enough, that if they raise wages, employers problems will be solved. President Biden said as much. That's why I posted this article. Labor shortages have never affected the government sector. State and federal governments have always had plenty of applicants, so many that they have been able to give preference to veterans, etc.

It's also manifesting itself in different ways. People, especially those on the lower end of the pay scale, are no longer afraid to lose their jobs, which has contributed to vaccine hesitancy. It's a lot easier to quit when even lower end jobs are paying upwards of $20/hr. IMO this same phenomenon is going to result in poorer quality work. Employers will be more reluctant to discipline their workers because they're afraid they'll quit. Better to have an under performer than no performer.

Of course, there are other factors driving our economic problems, specifically the supply chain problems caused by the pandemic, but they're interrelated. We can't get the supply chain problems ironed out due to the labor shortage, not enough warehouse workers and truck drivers to get goods off the ships and to retailers. Overly generous unemployment benefits and too many stimulus payments also contributed to the shortage/inflation.

Get ready for 5 years of inflation pushing 10% a year and don't be surprised when you have your airline flights canceled, bus service interrupted, your favorite restaurant closed, and long waits to see a doctor or get the oil changed in your car. It's here to stay.

[RiverDog]

It's been a couple months since we've discussed the labor shortage.

Jan 5, 2022, Craig Torres and Alex Tanzi, Bloomberg News

Scarce Labor Is Likely to Squeeze U.S. Business Long After Covid

The labor force is projected to grow by just 6.5 million workers through 2030, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics. That’s down from almost 10 million for the ten years ending in 2019, and even bigger numbers in previous decades.

A combination of slower population growth inside the country and fewer migrants arriving from outside -– both exacerbated by the pandemic, but also pre-dating it –- suggests that in periods of strong or even steady economic growth, companies could have trouble finding people for entry-level jobs.

“Call it a crisis if you will, but it’s been building,” says William Emmons, an economist at the St. Louis Fed. “We have a problem. Where are the workers going to come from?”

Along with falling birth rates and higher death rates, trends that got worse after the financial crisis and again in the pandemic, “immigration is probably going to be lower and slower,” Emmons says. “This safety valve that enabled us to continue to operate an economy based on an unending supply of low-cost, low-skilled labor -– that is probably not going to be viable.”

But net migration flows are falling along with domestic birth rates. There’s a pandemic shortfall of almost 1 million work visas. Last month’s announcement by the Department of Homeland Security of an additional 20,000 permits for seasonal guest-workers barely dents that. And migration is entangled in politics, making it hard to open the gates again.

https://www.bnnbloomberg.ca/scarce-labo ... -1.1703270

This article re-iterates what I've been saying for well over a year now, that the labor shortage may have been made worse by the pandemic, but it wasn't created by it, thus it will not end with the end of the pandemic. It is going to be with us for the foreseeable future until our economy adjusts. So get used to sustained inflation of 5-10% a year, more food shortages, quality of work will suffer as people change out of their current job for a higher paying one and employers are afraid to discipline their workers for fear of them quitting, and so on.

The liberals only solution is to pay workers more money and the conservatives are too paranoid about immigrants to solve the problem by liberalizing entry requirements.

[Aseahawkfan]

It's been a couple months since we've discussed the labor shortage.

Jan 5, 2022, Craig Torres and Alex Tanzi, Bloomberg News

Scarce Labor Is Likely to Squeeze U.S. Business Long After Covid

The labor force is projected to grow by just 6.5 million workers through 2030, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics. That’s down from almost 10 million for the ten years ending in 2019, and even bigger numbers in previous decades.

A combination of slower population growth inside the country and fewer migrants arriving from outside -– both exacerbated by the pandemic, but also pre-dating it –- suggests that in periods of strong or even steady economic growth, companies could have trouble finding people for entry-level jobs.

“Call it a crisis if you will, but it’s been building,” says William Emmons, an economist at the St. Louis Fed. “We have a problem. Where are the workers going to come from?”

Along with falling birth rates and higher death rates, trends that got worse after the financial crisis and again in the pandemic, “immigration is probably going to be lower and slower,” Emmons says. “This safety valve that enabled us to continue to operate an economy based on an unending supply of low-cost, low-skilled labor -– that is probably not going to be viable.”

But net migration flows are falling along with domestic birth rates. There’s a pandemic shortfall of almost 1 million work visas. Last month’s announcement by the Department of Homeland Security of an additional 20,000 permits for seasonal guest-workers barely dents that. And migration is entangled in politics, making it hard to open the gates again.

https://www.bnnbloomberg.ca/scarce-labo ... -1.1703270

This article re-iterates what I've been saying for well over a year now, that the labor shortage may have been made worse by the pandemic, but it wasn't created by it, thus it will not end with the end of the pandemic. It is going to be with us for the foreseeable future until our economy adjusts. So get used to sustained inflation of 5-10% a year, more food shortages, quality of work will suffer as people change out of their current job for a higher paying one and employers are afraid to discipline their workers for fear of them quitting, and so on.

The liberals only solution is to pay workers more money and the conservatives are too paranoid about immigrants to solve the problem by liberalizing entry requirements.

The speculation is it reached this level due to early retirement due to the pandemic. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-10-22/covid-early-retirees-top-3-million-in-u-s-fed-research-show#:~:text=More%20than%203%20million%20Americans,force%20from%20pre%2Dpandemic%20levels.

And the cut down on immigration due to shut borders and bans on movement.

So we'll see. It might not have much relief for a while until we're pretty sure we're not allowing COVID to spread everywhere by bringing in immigrant labor and older folks feel comfortable at their jobs.

I know anecdotally speaking some of the first people cut at employers were older employees. I know one friend's mother who did not want to quit, but her company pretty much said retire or be fired. The oldest employees are often the most expensive. She worked for a cruise line which got slammed during COVID and still isn't operating at full capacity.

I think the supply shortages may also have been due to people not spending on travel and things they couldn't spend on buying lots of things at the same time once these bans were lifted. Which caused an artificial increase in demand that will abate and normalize as that money moves through the system.

We're still a ways away from being clear with Omicron spreading and other countries such a huge part of the American supply chain now with different COVID protocols like Australian who shuts down if even one case shows up.

[RiverDog]

The speculation is it reached this level due to early retirement due to the pandemic. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-10-22/covid-early-retirees-top-3-million-in-u-s-fed-research-show#:~:text=More%20than%203%20million%20Americans,force%20from%20pre%2Dpandemic%20levels.

And the cut down on immigration due to shut borders and bans on movement.

So we'll see. It might not have much relief for a while until we're pretty sure we're not allowing COVID to spread everywhere by bringing in immigrant labor and older folks feel comfortable at their jobs.

I know anecdotally speaking some of the first people cut at employers were older employees. I know one friend's mother who did not want to quit, but her company pretty much said retire or be fired. The oldest employees are often the most expensive. She worked for a cruise line which got slammed during COVID and still isn't operating at full capacity.

I think the supply shortages may also have been due to people not spending on travel and things they couldn't spend on buying lots of things at the same time once these bans were lifted. Which caused an artificial increase in demand that will abate and normalize as that money moves through the system.

We're still a ways away from being clear with Omicron spreading and other countries such a huge part of the American supply chain now with different COVID protocols like Australian who shuts down if even one case shows up.

There have been some workers that retired early when the pandemic broke out that, thanks to an increase in demand and higher wages, have returned to the work force, but it's not in great enough numbers and won't last long as they'll re-retire for good in another year or two. It's also not in great enough numbers to have a significant effect on the problem. Same with immigration. Once the borders open up, we can expect to see more immigration but again, not in enough numbers to make a huge difference. And immigration is still a hot button political issue with a lot of folks.

One possible solution is in automation. With the increase in wages, the incentive for business to automate becomes more attractive, makes the purchase of labor-saving devices easier to cost justify. I can see a day in the not too distant future where a McDonald's restaurant will be run by one or two machine operators/techs, robotic hamburger flippers, voice activated kiosks at the drive up window to take your order, etc.

But until then, we're going to have to get used to higher prices and fewer services. I worry that an increase in wages and prices will re-ignite the inflation of the 70's and early 80's that was a living nightmare for me as I entered the workforce. A 10.4% raise, the highest I ever received, was swallowed up by 13% inflation. As a retired person on fixed income, inflation is a threat to those like me that have retired under a different set of circumstances. They increased Social Security payments by 5.9%, which sounds adequate until you account for the rise in Medicare premiums and deductibles that take it down to a little over 4%, and the fact that the costs of the products and services that seniors are more likely to buy has risen higher than the average drives it down even further.

[Aseahawkfan]

There have been some workers that retired early when the pandemic broke out that, thanks to an increase in demand and higher wages, have returned to the work force, but it's not in great enough numbers and won't last long as they'll re-retire for good in another year or two. It's also not in great enough numbers to have a significant effect on the problem. Same with immigration. Once the borders open up, we can expect to see more immigration but again, not in enough numbers to make a huge difference. And immigration is still a hot button political issue with a lot of folks.

One possible solution is in automation. With the increase in wages, the incentive for business to automate becomes more attractive, makes the purchase of labor-saving devices easier to cost justify. I can see a day in the not too distant future where a McDonald's restaurant will be run by one or two machine operators/techs, robotic hamburger flippers, voice activated kiosks at the drive up window to take your order, etc.

But until then, we're going to have to get used to higher prices and fewer services. I worry that an increase in wages and prices will re-ignite the inflation of the 70's and early 80's that was a living nightmare for me as I entered the workforce. A 10.4% raise, the highest I ever received, was swallowed up by 13% inflation. As a retired person on fixed income, inflation is a threat to those like me that have retired under a different set of circumstances. They increased Social Security payments by 5.9%, which sounds adequate until you account for the rise in Medicare premiums and deductibles that take it down to a little over 4%, and the fact that the costs of the products and services that seniors are more likely to buy has risen higher than the average drives it down even further.

From a macroeconomic perspective, the government needs inflation. But not 70s level inflation aka inflation with no growth aka stagflation. That would be terrible. I don't think we'll get that. But the government collects percentage based taxes, so they need the GDP to be inflated to a level where the debt becomes a lower percentage of the GDP so all the percentage based taxes they get from rising incomes, prices for goods and services, and other assets lead to higher tax revenues and a higher GDP which allows them to service the massive debt they built up during the pandemic stimulus. The government desires a controlled inflationary environment , but can't say this because it would panic people.

American can bring people in quite fast if it needs to. Once that hurtle clears, we will bring in a lot of immigrants if we don't have a Trump-like presidential candidate. You will notice when Trump is not present, the mainstream Republican Party isn't much focusing on anti-immigrant rhetoric likely because their business supporters know we're going to need an influx of people for labor and consumption purposes. Immigration helps reduce labor shortages, but it also increases demand and tax revenues for government. I know they try to sell this narrative of immigrants not paying taxes, but it isn't true. Most employers that employ immigrant labor pay their taxes including their social security, Medicare, and income taxes.

I expect some of the overall supply chain shortages to wind down as soon as the pandemic is under control. We need to get some of that money people built up staying at home spent into the system. We have too much cash in reserve driving excess demand which is also a big reason for supply shortages.

As far as protecting your cash right now, buy some assets that will rise with inflation like consumer durable goods or maybe oil companies with a dividend.

[RiverDog]

A lot of the problem with inflation is psychological. Back in the 70's, the mindset was "buy it today because the price on it goes up tomorrow". That led to a lot of people overspending on things they didn't really need and racking up debt. That's one of the things I worry about in this current environment. With not only the shortages of labor, which isn't going to improve this decade, and pandemic related supply line shortages, I'm afraid we're going to see near 70's type inflation.

Immigration helps reduce labor shortages, but it also increases demand and tax revenues for government. I know they try to sell this narrative of immigrants not paying taxes, but it isn't true. Most employers that employ immigrant labor pay their taxes including their social security, Medicare, and income taxes.

Absouletly true. Immigrants tend to be younger, between 20 and 40, and as such, have fewer health problems than people 50+ so they aren't taking out of the system by racking up doctors and hospital bills. Even illegal immigrants pay their taxes. Unless employers aren't holding out taxes from their paychecks, they have to pay withholding tax. If they buy something at a store or gas station, they have to pay sales tax. It's an absurd argument to claim that any demographic group doesn't pay their fair share of taxes.

They also tend to have more kids, which is a plus when one of our problems is that the declining birth rate is throwing the worker-to-retiree ratio out of whack. Public school enrollment dropped 3% nation wide in 2019-20, pre pandemic, so it's not like we don't have the infrastructure capacity.

At the same time, I don't want to simply open up the doors and let everyone in, de-criminalize illegal border crossings, or abolishing ICE as liberals like AOC want. The lesson of 9/11 was that we need to maintain a high level of security. I just don't agree with Trump's hideously expensive border wall.

But there's still a huge political problem. You and me might understand that the vast majority of immigrants, even illegal immigrants, are law abiding and make positive contributions to our society, but there are a large number of the voting population, especially older folks like myself, that don't see them in that light. We have a neighbor that blames everything from the national debt to the common cold on illegal immigrants and refuse to believe me when I tell them that the vast majority of undocumented aliens are illegal because they overstayed their visa, not because the crashed the border. If Biden or anyone else runs on a policy of enhanced immigration, they'll get killed in the voting booth.

[Aseahawkfan]

Absouletly true. Immigrants tend to be younger, between 20 and 40, and as such, have fewer health problems than people 50+ so they aren't taking out of the system by racking up doctors and hospital bills. Even illegal immigrants pay their taxes. Unless employers aren't holding out taxes from their paychecks, they have to pay withholding tax. If they buy something at a store or gas station, they have to pay sales tax. It's an absurd argument to claim that any demographic group doesn't pay their fair share of taxes.

They also tend to have more kids, which is a plus when one of our problems is that the declining birth rate is throwing the worker-to-retiree ratio out of whack. Public school enrollment dropped 3% nation wide in 2019-20, pre pandemic, so it's not like we don't have the infrastructure capacity.

At the same time, I don't want to simply open up the doors and let everyone in, de-criminalize illegal border crossings, or abolishing ICE as liberals like AOC want. The lesson of 9/11 was that we need to maintain a high level of security. I just don't agree with Trump's hideously expensive border wall.

But there's still a huge political problem. You and me might understand that the vast majority of immigrants, even illegal immigrants, are law abiding and make positive contributions to our society, but there are a large number of the voting population, especially older folks like myself, that don't see them in that light. We have a neighbor that blames everything from the national debt to the common cold on illegal immigrants and refuse to believe me when I tell them that the vast majority of undocumented aliens are illegal because they overstayed their visa, not because the crashed the border. If Biden or anyone else runs on a policy of enhanced immigration, they'll get killed in the voting booth.

I'm surprised at the number of people in the Latin American community who are anti-immigrant. I have some American family who are Mexican ancestry more anti-immigrant than my family who is of European ancestry. It's pretty weird.

I want reasonable curbs tied to the economy on immigration as well as some security measures taken in regards to immigration. This whole anti-immigrant trash that's been around since time immemorial is just ridiculous. I keep hearing these people talking about immigration issues like they're new while I'm watching movies from the 70s and 80s based on the immigration issues with Latin America. It's been around practically since America been around. In Texas and southern America near the border, folks of Spanish and Native blood been living here since the Founding of America and before. It's just dumb and a show of how few Americans know about their history.

[RiverDog]

I'm surprised at the number of people in the Latin American community who are anti-immigrant. I have some American family who are Mexican ancestry more anti-immigrant than my family who is of European ancestry. It's pretty weird.

My ex wife was a 2nd generation Mexican American so I was exposed to a lot of immigrants, and I've worked in an industry that employed a lot of immigrants. I've worked with, drinked with, cried with, and slept with them, so I feel that I have as good of an insight into the mentality of immigrants as any native born American. Some of the anti immigrant mentality is driven by selfishness, that now I've made it across the river, to hell with the rest of you. Like you say, it's pretty weird, but that's the impression I got.

I want reasonable curbs tied to the economy on immigration as well as some security measures taken in regards to immigration. This whole anti-immigrant trash that's been around since time immemorial is just ridiculous. I keep hearing these people talking about immigration issues like they're new while I'm watching movies from the 70s and 80s based on the immigration issues with Latin America. It's been around practically since America been around. In Texas and southern America near the border, folks of Spanish and Native blood been living here since the Founding of America and before. It's just dumb and a show of how few Americans know about their history.

Exactly. If our labor situation is tight or if or infrastructure, ie schools, hospitals, etc, can't handle them, then we need to throttle it back. But I don't see that being a factor for quite some time.

The common American's ignorance to those that don't look or talk like them is my biggest pet peeve. Even my wife, as racially tolerant as she is, will comment about all the Spanish being spoken and music being played as we walk our dog around a new housing development. I don't see us getting over that for some time, at least not in my lifetime.

[RiverDog]

Inflation for all of last year was 7%, the highest level since 1982. That sure shoots down the 5.9% raise that they gave Social Security recipients as the effective raise, derived by factoring out a nearly 15% increase in the Medicare's monthly premiums ($148.50 to $170.10 for most people) and the increase in Medicare deductibles, that brings it down that raise to around 4.4%, and that's not considering that the prices on things seniors buy has risen more than the average.

I'm not hurting, but there's a lot of people that are dependent on SS as the major source of their income that are going to feel the inflation crunch. Like any other economic crisis, it's going to hit low income folks the hardest.

[chris98251]

Mandate vaccinations, if you don't get the jab, you're in an isolation camp, you get no health care till you get a shot, open the hospitals for those who need procedures and care that have been vaccinated or willing to. Let those in the camps infect each other, if they die well not everyone else's problem, they have a choice to not be there. Go back to work, have a jab, help each other, the self-righteous religious beliefs and all that is just division, look at it as a re institution of the Military draft. They didn't have a lot of choice either.

[c_hawkbob]

Mandate vaccinations, if you don't get the jab, you're in an isolation camp, you get no health care till you get a shot, open the hospitals for those who need procedures and care that have been vaccinated or willing to. Let those in the camps infect each other, if they die well not everyone else's problem, they have a choice to not be there. Go back to work, have a jab, help each other, the self-righteous religious beliefs and all that is just division, look at it as a re institution of the Military draft. They didn't have a lot of choice either.

Never happen but I'd vote in favor.

[mykc14]

Mandate vaccinations, if you don't get the jab, you're in an isolation camp, you get no health care till you get a shot, open the hospitals for those who need procedures and care that have been vaccinated or willing to. Let those in the camps infect each other, if they die well not everyone else's problem, they have a choice to not be there. Go back to work, have a jab, help each other, the self-righteous religious beliefs and all that is just division, look at it as a re institution of the Military draft. They didn't have a lot of choice either.

It’s crazy to me, with all the evidence out there that the vaccines do not stop the spread of COVID, that people think like this. The CDC just came out with a report that said 79% of people who have gotten Omni are vaccinated. Omni is going to spread- let it. Unvaccinated people will get sicker and more unvaccinated will probably die. We are in the middle of a labor crisis, hospitals are requiring symptomatic nurses work yet healthy vaccinated nurses are sitting at home. We are in the middle of a labor crisis and your solution is to take more people out of the work force. The Omni surge will be over in a few weeks, yet you want to round all the unvaccinated up and put them in camps? It seems more like a punitive reaction to non-compliance than a plan based on any sort of evidence.

[RiverDog]

Mandate vaccinations, if you don't get the jab, you're in an isolation camp, you get no health care till you get a shot, open the hospitals for those who need procedures and care that have been vaccinated or willing to. Let those in the camps infect each other, if they die well not everyone else's problem, they have a choice to not be there. Go back to work, have a jab, help each other, the self-righteous religious beliefs and all that is just division, look at it as a re institution of the Military draft. They didn't have a lot of choice either.

Welcome to the jungle! A bit off topic as we have a Covid thread that's actively drawing responses, but no biggie.

There are times when I've had the very same thought that you have expressed, but I don't think that it's a practical idea. A more viable solution would be to charge those that refuse to get vaccinated higher insurance premiums much like they do with smokers. Delta Airlines enacted such a policy.

I do think that vaccination mandates are a valuable tool to use against highly communicable diseases, but the Omicron variant has changed the game as the vaccines aren't as effective as they were against the original virus, which is one of the reasons why your suggestion isn't viable as it's pretty inflexible.

[RiverDog]

I just saw something that I found incredible. Babysitting rates in many cities, including Seattle, are averaging well over $20/hour:

https://www.sittercity.com/parents/usin ... -or-nanny#

I'm not sure how much of that was driven by the pandemic, with child care facilities having to close due to possible disease spread and increasing the demand for sitters, and how much is due to the labor shortage. Most likely it's a combination of both. But it's not because we have many babies in this country as birth rates have been falling for decades.

Better order a pizza and sign up for Netflix. No more get out of the house date nights.

[Aseahawkfan]

I just saw something that I found incredible. Babysitting rates in many cities, including Seattle, are averaging well over $20/hour:

https://www.sittercity.com/parents/usin ... -or-nanny#

I'm not sure how much of that was driven by the pandemic, with child care facilities having to close due to possible disease spread and increasing the demand for sitters, and how much is due to the labor shortage. Most likely it's a combination of both. But it's not because we have many babies in this country as birth rates have been falling for decades.

Better order a pizza and sign up for Netflix. No more get out of the house date nights.

This is all going to get insane economically. Oil rising. Supply chains disrupted due to Russia. Global Pandemic. I don't why this happens, but it just seems humans have to be really, really, really stupid at certain points so we can have massive problems and drama. That's why I always admired the fictional Vulcans. Focus on logic than emotion. Human race would be so much better off they weren't such an emotional and idiotic species.

[tarlhawk]

Focus on logic than emotion. Human race would be so much better off they weren't such an emotional and idiotic species.

Emotions are often targeted whenever an entity entices individuals to conform/agree to something they would normally be against if given the chance to use reasoning. Some of the most divisive issues in our country have been fueled by stirring of emotions vice educating a populace to engage sound reasoning to address a major issue. If an entity can create fear it can often delude individuals in sacrificing given rights to be "rescued".