Mask Mandates

[RiverDog]

I couldn't help but chuckle at this little tidbit:

A new memo from Fox Corp – the owner of Fox News – reports that 90 per cent of its full time employees are currently vaccinated against the coronavirus, despite several of the network's top personalities regularly undermining the vaccine effort.

Those numbers raise questions as to whether or not Fox News's most vocal stars – many of whom regularly criticise the vaccine and praise unproven alternatives – have taken the coronavirus vaccine.

Tucker Carlson has dodged the question anytime he has been asked. Once when Carlson was asked if he was vaccinated, he replied by saying he would not ask the interviewer "any super vulgar personal questions like that" because he's a "polite person."

https://news.yahoo.com/fox-corp-reveals ... 57509.html

Kinda shows you how much of a phony Carlson is if 90% of his fellow employees have gotten the poke that he so regularly decries. I'm also quite sure that if he had not taken the vaccine that he'd be standing on his apple box shouting his defiance at every opportunity and wouldn't be hiding behind his claim of personal privacy to keep it a mystery. This isn't a disease that has embarrassing social implications, like AIDS, herpes, or a STD.

There's plenty of reasons for one to hide the fact that they haven't been vaccinated, but there isn't a credible, believable personal reason for an individual not to reveal that they have gotten the poke other than being exposed as a hypocrite. After Carlson has made such a big, public issue about the vaccines, a reporter asking him if he's gotten one is relevant to the topic that he voluntarily talks about and is completely fair. Claiming that it's a "super vulgar personal question" is truly laughable.

[NorthHawk]

There's plenty of reasons for one to hide the fact that they haven't been vaccinated, but there isn't a credible, believable personal reason for an individual not to reveal that they have gotten the poke other than being exposed as a hypocrite. After Carlson has made such a big, public issue about the vaccines, a reporter asking him if he's gotten one is relevant to the topic that he voluntarily talks about and is completely fair. Claiming that it's a "super vulgar personal question" is truly laughable.

Hear, Hear!
Hypocrisy runs deep with some of these media types. And it’s heartbreaking that so many believe that crapola he and others
spew and end up suffering or worse as a result.

[Aseahawkfan]

Media types like Carlson and Cuomo employ people to research topics for their shows meant to garner ratings to make money. That alone should tell people how trustworthy the sources of information are if the primary motivations is based on their compensation. Rush Limbaugh proved that being able to connect with listeners or viewers based on a two bit political opinion generated big money. Once the media showed they were clearly seeking to maintain a liberal Democratic audience, conservative media built themselves a long and enduring following that is still generating immense revenue and ratings to this day.

[RiverDog]

I read an interesting article about the issuance of religious exemptions for the vaccine:

But a Trump-loving preacher at a Texas megachurch has decreed that there is "no credible religious argument" for turning down a shot, the Associated Press said.

The Rev. Robert Jeffress, a pastor at the 12,000-member First Baptist Church in Dallas, told the news agency that he and his staff are neither "offering" exemption letters nor "encouraging" members of their congregation to seek out religious exemptions from coronavirus vaccine mandates.

"Christians who are troubled by the use of a fetal cell line for the testing of the vaccines would also have to abstain from the use of Tylenol, Pepto Bismol, Ibuprofen, and other products that used the same cell line if they are sincere in their objection," said Jeffress in an email.

The AP reported that leaders of the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America said Thursday that, aside from medical reasons, "there is no exemption in the Orthodox Church for Her faithful from any vaccination for religious reasons."

Similarly, the news agency reported that the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and The Roman Catholic Archdiocese of New York have also said that they are not in support of exemption letters, according to the AP.

But then there's this:

But not all churches share the same view. The AP said that some Catholic bishops, including those at The Colorado Catholic Conference, have made it easier to object to the vaccine on religious grounds by posting online templates for a letter that priests can sign.

One pastor in Tulsa has even said that he will sign a religious exemption letter if people donate to his church, The Washington Post reported.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics ... uxbndlbing

[RiverDog]

Media types like Carlson and Cuomo employ people to research topics for their shows meant to garner ratings to make money. That alone should tell people how trustworthy the sources of information are if the primary motivations is based on their compensation. Rush Limbaugh proved that being able to connect with listeners or viewers based on a two bit political opinion generated big money. Once the media showed they were clearly seeking to maintain a liberal Democratic audience, conservative media built themselves a long and enduring following that is still generating immense revenue and ratings to this day.

That's what the vast majority of listeners/viewers fail to grasp. It's all about money.

Rush Limbaugh was actually quite honest about it. He once said that he tells his call screeners to put callers on the line that "will make the host look good". In other words, he doesn't want someone that can challenge him and create a fair debate with both sides of an issue being equally represented. All he wants is a stooge to set him up.

[c_hawkbob]

One pastor in Tulsa has even said that he will sign a religious exemption letter if people donate to his church

This statement should be prosecutable.

[RiverDog]

One pastor in Tulsa has even said that he will sign a religious exemption letter if people donate to his church

This statement should be prosecutable.

I agree in principle, but it would likely run into a separation of church and state issue.

[tarlhawk]

I know this is a sensitive issue for many and each person protects those they care about in a land that still observes most freedoms. My goal in sharing this post is to relay what I have seen and heard. Early in the crisis of covids discovery and initial response to that discovery I was watching tv at random...and NHK news (broadcast out of Japan) had a show concerning covid-19 and what some studies in Japan had revealed. At that time its origin was widely disputed...mostly circulated rumors.

They compared the characteristics of this particular virus strain with attributes of other deadly virus strains and showed numerous differences that made this virus strain a pandemic. The one thing I had gleaned and found disturbing was that unlike previous virulent strains...this virus was easily spread because once a person is infected this virus reaches its highest spread rate a full two days before showing any signs in its host that it has been acquired. When people catch a flu they get chills/muscle aches/fever (sometimes) and know they should stay home to not give it to their co-workers. With covid-19 you can feel perfectly normal and see no need to stay home...no warnings to allow you to make a decision if you want to risk the health of your co-workers.

The disease did not have the lethality that was originally projected...which only allowed the temptation to not take it as serious...but this type of virus mutates the longer it is allowed to be in circulation. Older/at-risk people are more susceptible to this lethal aspect than much younger people...similar to any bad flu that weakens an immune system. Weakened immune systems are vulnerable to catching pneumonia...which is what normally takes out sick elderly people...your lungs fill with a sticky substance and your death experience is akin to drowning.

Some studies have reported that just because the younger population isn't as likely to die from becoming symptomatic from covid...doesn't mean there is no harm with long term consequences...the virus attacks internal organs and can greatly affect lung capacity. The worst cases can remove almost 25% lung capacity...for the life of the victim. A vaccine protects the individual from the worst case scenarios...but as more breakthru cases are reported it still can't prevent you from acquiring the virus and spreading it to someone unprotected by choice or unprotected due to doctors orders because their immune system is too weak to risk the vaccine itself. I have been fully vaccinated yet still wear masks whenever outside the home because I have seen on local news the nastiness of hospitalized individuals and heard the testimony of the nurses who are over traumatized by the feeling of being helpless while witnessing a person suffering unto death.

[RiverDog]

I know this is a sensitive issue for many and each person protects those they care about in a land that still observes most freedoms. My goal in sharing this post is to relay what I have seen and heard. Early in the crisis of covids discovery and initial response to that discovery I was watching tv at random...and NHK news (broadcast out of Japan) had a show concerning covid-19 and what some studies in Japan had revealed. At that time its origin was widely disputed...mostly circulated rumors.

They compared the characteristics of this particular virus strain with attributes of other deadly virus strains and showed numerous differences that made this virus strain a pandemic. The one thing I had gleaned and found disturbing was that unlike previous virulent strains...this virus was easily spread because once a person is infected this virus reaches its highest spread rate a full two days before showing any signs in its host that it has been acquired. When people catch a flu they get chills/muscle aches/fever (sometimes) and know they should stay home to not give it to their co-workers. With covid-19 you can feel perfectly normal and see no need to stay home...no warnings to allow you to make a decision if you want to risk the health of your co-workers.

The disease did not have the lethality that was originally projected...which only allowed the temptation to not take it as serious...but this type of virus mutates the longer it is allowed to be in circulation. Older/at-risk people are more susceptible to this lethal aspect than much younger people...similar to any bad flu that weakens an immune system. Weakened immune systems are vulnerable to catching pneumonia...which is what normally takes out sick elderly people...your lungs fill with a sticky substance and your death experience is akin to drowning.

Some studies have reported that just because the younger population isn't as likely to die from becoming symptomatic from covid...doesn't mean there is no harm with long term consequences...the virus attacks internal organs and can greatly affect lung capacity. The worst cases can remove almost 25% lung capacity...for the life of the victim. A vaccine protects the individual from the worst case scenarios...but as more breakthru cases are reported it still can't prevent you from acquiring the virus and spreading it to someone unprotected by choice or unprotected due to doctors orders because their immune system is too weak to risk the vaccine itself. I have been fully vaccinated yet still wear masks whenever outside the home because I have seen on local news the nastiness of hospitalized individuals and heard the testimony of the nurses who are over traumatized by the feeling of being helpless while witnessing a person suffering unto death.

Thanks for weighing in on this. You're absolutely right about the differences between this virus and your garden variety virus like the flu. It's delayed symptoms and increased communicability make it much more of a concern. Too bad that everybody doesn't understand that. It's not rocket science.

I'm delighted to hear that you've chosen to get vaccinated. I've been fully vaccinated since late February. Same with my wife, plus since she's immuno compromised, she received a booster last month. Once they approve a booster for Moderna, expected this Thursday, I'll get my booster ASAP. We are huge advocates of immunizations.

My attitude about masks is a little different. Being that they do not protect me and given that the most threatened are those that have chosen not to get vaccinated, I don't feel as morally obligated to wear them as I have in the past. However, now that they've reinstated the mandate here in WA, I've faithfully complied with it, plus if anyone were to ask me (politely), I would willingly don one.

I'm fully in support of vaccination mandates and although I don't advocate it as it would result in a lot of violence, I would support a nation wide edict should one ever be issued. An old, wise school teacher of mine once told me "your rights end where my nose begins", a saying that is oh so true when it comes to spreading diseases.

[tarlhawk]

My attitude about masks is a little different. Being that they do not protect me and given that the most threatened are those that have chosen not to get vaccinated, I don't feel as morally obligated to wear them as I have in the past. However, now that they've reinstated the mandate here in WA, I've faithfully complied with it, plus if anyone were to ask me (politely), I would willingly don one.

I understand your frustration at realizing the importance of getting everyone on board to get vaccinated...but what is the driving reason behind a reluctance to become fully vaccinated? When a large population of people seem highly resistant to do something that seems so obvious to those who quickly realized the need and did get vaccinated...its not meant to be a slight/put-down. The longer a fear is allowed to exist...the quicker it takes roots. Fear thrives whenever there is unknown risk...unknown risk thrives from lack of education. Our education level is shameful and allows other countries to label our country as fat and lazy. We eat things that are harmful to our health...why? Advertisers have not been idle all these years...they have gleaned an understanding of human behavior and how to manipulate it...some of their efforts used to be relegated to war time POWs...and known as brain washing. True brain washing is considered to rail against moral ethics...but does anyone think moral ethics these days is a driving force against profit? Capitalism on its face is a strong force to increase a countries wealth...but becomes a strong detriment when morals and business ethics are abandoned.
Your core beliefs and sense of values were influenced by how you grew up...how you were raised...and by your personal experiences as you encountered all the aspects of life. This internal "filtration" is known as your conscience. Your conscience is that inner voice reflecting the "filtration" of your own experiences.
Many people confuse the subconscious with the conscious unaware of what a simple phrase like "garbage in leads to garbage out" means. Our brains are actual wonders...all of our senses (hearing/tasting/smelling/touching/seeing) are communicated to our brains and recorded in our sub-conscience. The more common and repetitive the "recording" the higher up in our ability to recall it as our own thoughts...simple phrases heard have a stronger effect to resonate as our own thoughts.

Example: a simple phrase that seems to state an obvious truth may have a hard time getting by our "filter' (conscience). Every vote must count...sounds reasonable...repeated often enough it is recorded higher in our subconscious ability to recall. Is it every vote must count? ... or every vote properly cast must count? because the right to vote is one of our greatest freedoms and has been protected with the shedding of blood to keep its sanctity...Voter verification should be a given...not labeled as voter suppression. Those who strongly believe in the right to vote take the necessary steps to be allowed to exercise their right. Rights and privileges are often confused as being the same. Rights are important for a country to thrive ...and are backed by laws to enforce that a right is not taken away. Privileges are abilities an individual can enjoy the benefit of merely by virtue of being a citizen of a wealthy/blessed country.

Re-call ability is also demonstrated by a forgotten child memory of smelling a certain spice in a bakery...not a common spice but one that years later as an adult you visit another bakery or perhaps your wife bakes with it? The memory of your childhood visit to a bakery comes flooding back sometimes in vivid detail...because memories are often a summation of the senses recorded. The comfort of thinking you were raised a certain way and it will shield you from seeing something disturbing or hearing in graphic detail something you find offensive (in your conscience)...hence "garbage in".

Fascinated with watching deaths whether real or imagined may be rejected by your conscience...but your subconscious stores it without your knowledge...and a disturbing thing viewed or heard often enough...can influence your waking thoughts allowing you to accept behavior you found repulsive before ...hence "garbage out". Subliminal text running at high speeds across the bottom of a movie screen...made you think "I'm feeling thirsty"...once discovered this practice was outlawed...brain manipulation used to be called brain washing.

[RiverDog]

I understand your frustration at realizing the importance of getting everyone on board to get vaccinated...but what is the driving reason behind a reluctance to become fully vaccinated?

Excellent post, and I agree with most everything you've said. I've truncated most of it and copied what I want to respond to but I don't want you to get the idea that I'm ignoring it, just trying to keep things simple.

If you want my opinion, the root cause of our vaccination problem is intelligence/education (I want to be clear that a lack of a diploma or education doesn't necessarily mean a lack of intelligence, hence my grouping of the two terms), or the lack thereof. There's a lot of different groups that aren't getting vaccinated....Republicans/conservatives, blacks, Hispanics. All of those groups are less educated than those that have gotten the poke. Additionally, surveys show that the more educated a person is, the more likely they are to trust science and medicine.

But that's not the only factor. There's been plenty of uneducated and unintelligent people in the 50's and 60's but there wasn't near the resistance to vaccines then as there is today, so what's the difference? Answer: Social media. For the most part, and this is obviously a generalization, people that are lacking in intelligence and education do not have the same capacity to process information and separate the wheat from the chaff as their more intelligent and educated counterparts are. They are more susceptible to misinformation, less trusting of the government. You essentially said the same thing when you said this:

Fear thrives whenever there is unknown risk...unknown risk thrives from lack of education. Our education level is shameful and allows other countries to label our country as fat and lazy.

I think we're on the same page here. One of my biggest pet peeves is the utter ignorance of the American public. When I read surveys that claim that 29% of American adults can't find the Pacific Ocean on a map, it's no wonder why we can't rationalize with the vast majority of these anti vaxxers and convince them that it's safe and effective. It's hard to fix stupid.

[tarlhawk]

I think we're on the same page here. One of my biggest pet peeves is the utter ignorance of the American public. When I read surveys that claim that 29% of American adults can't find the Pacific Ocean on a map, it's no wonder why we can't rationalize with the vast majority of these anti vaxxers and convince them that it's safe and effective. It's hard to fix stupid.

I'm weary of stats reflecting something that sounds incredulous. Very sad if true (29%)...but the source data is important ...how many people polled...local/limited or polled across entire country...specific targeted group polled to get desired effect...example : 50 people polled at a political convention of an opposing party...result stated into written article : 60% of Americans think candidate John Doe is stupid/the wrong kind for our country. So 30 people (out of 300 million plus) at an opponents political convention (a bit biased) gave an unfavorable opinion (anything close to conveying "stupid"...yet producing the desired effect "the other guy is dangerously stupid". Not sure how you felt about the show "Are you as smart as a 5th grader?" ...unless you are a 6th grader that question shows no relevance...might as well ask "Are you as tough as a 5th grader? ...and both of you don boxing gloves.

[RiverDog]

I'm weary of stats reflecting something that sounds incredulous. Very sad if true (29%)...but the source data is important ...how many people polled...local/limited or polled across entire country...specific targeted group polled to get desired effect...example : 50 people polled at a political convention of an opposing party...result stated into written article : 60% of Americans think candidate John Doe is stupid/the wrong kind for our country. So 30 people (out of 300 million plus) at an opponents political convention (a bit biased) gave an unfavorable opinion (anything close to conveying "stupid"...yet producing the desired effect "the other guy is dangerously stupid". Not sure how you felt about the show "Are you as smart as a 5th grader?" ...unless you are a 6th grader that question shows no relevance...might as well ask "Are you as tough as a 5th grader? ...and both of you don boxing gloves.

The survey was from a National Geographic study from quite some time ago, and they were sampling young adults, which I should have noted in my remarks:

The National Geographic-Roper 2002 Global Geographic Literacy Survey polled more than 3,000 18- to 24-year-olds in Canada, France, Germany, Great Britain, Italy, Japan, Mexico, Sweden and the United States.

"The survey demonstrates the geographic illiteracy of the United States," said Robert Pastor, professor of International Relations at American University, in Washington, D.C. "The results are particularly appalling in light of September 11, which traumatized America and revealed that our destiny is connected to the rest of the world."

About 11 percent of young citizens of the U.S. couldn't even locate the U.S. on a map. The Pacific Ocean's location was a mystery to 29 percent; Japan, to 58 percent; France, to 65 percent; and the United Kingdom, to 69 percent.

More young U.S. citizens in the study knew that the island featured in last season's TV show "Survivor" is in the South Pacific than could find Israel.

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/scie ... illiteracy

Even if the survey is off by 5%, a standard margin of error, the numbers are still extremely appalling. We are a country of morons.

[tarlhawk]

Thank you...that puts it in a proper context and is sad...does anyone know if geography is even taught any more? American history? World history? Perhaps its not directly the students...if the curriculum is poorly taught...if at all?

[RiverDog]

Thank you...that puts it in a proper context and is sad...does anyone know if geography is even taught any more? American history? World history? Perhaps its not directly the students...if the curriculum is poorly taught...if at all?

ul

It's truly a pet peeve of mine and IMO is the root cause of a good many problems that afflicts our society in this country. We have a poster, mykc14, whom is an educator and pokes his head in here from time to time. He and I once resolved to have a discussion about our educational system but we never got around to it. If he re-surfaces sometime, we'll have to gang tackle him and force him to shoot the breeze with us.

[Aseahawkfan]

Thank you...that puts it in a proper context and is sad...does anyone know if geography is even taught any more? American history? World history? Perhaps its not directly the students...if the curriculum is poorly taught...if at all?

From what I can tell talking to younger people, the standards for education have dropped dramatically. They are far more focused on not offending anyone or making anyone uncomfortable in school than ensuring a quality education.

Many of these kids graduate without having much competency in the various subjects taught. Competency tests are now considered bad because calling someone incompetent and requiring them to improve seems to be something the education system is not interested in.

Couple that with homes filled with working parents, many divorced, and raised not to push their kids very hard and you have the recipe for the modern day American.

Add in a dash of cell phone/Google searching everything you need to know, why would most bother to learn much when they can just google it.

It's a bad environment for learning overall, even though the tools for learning are the best they've ever been.

Hell, I recently had a friend say, "F history. F the Supreme Court" and basically wanted his feelings about vaccine mandates in relation to the Constitution to be true rather than read up on what case law had to say about such things. A lot of Americans believe the word "Liberty" or "freedom" means no one can tell them what to do and they can do whatever they want regardless of the consequences.

Then add in a pinch of political divide driven by a media who derives ratings from fueling this divide and you have a nice recipe for a lot of foolishness in America.

From what I understand, this foolishness is not solely occurring in America.

[RiverDog]

Thank you...that puts it in a proper context and is sad...does anyone know if geography is even taught any more? American history? World history? Perhaps its not directly the students...if the curriculum is poorly taught...if at all?

From what I can tell talking to younger people, the standards for education have dropped dramatically. They are far more focused on not offending anyone or making anyone uncomfortable in school than ensuring a quality education.

Many of these kids graduate without having much competency in the various subjects taught. Competency tests are now considered bad because calling someone incompetent and requiring them to improve seems to be something the education system is not interested in.

Couple that with homes filled with working parents, many divorced, and raised not to push their kids very hard and you have the recipe for the modern day American.

Add in a dash of cell phone/Google searching everything you need to know, why would most bother to learn much when they can just google it.

It's a bad environment for learning overall, even though the tools for learning are the best they've ever been.

Hell, I recently had a friend say, "F history. F the Supreme Court" and basically wanted his feelings about vaccine mandates in relation to the Constitution to be true rather than read up on what case law had to say about such things. A lot of Americans believe the word "Liberty" or "freedom" means no one can tell them what to do and they can do whatever they want regardless of the consequences.

Then add in a pinch of political divide driven by a media who derives ratings from fueling this divide and you have a nice recipe for a lot of foolishness in America.

From what I understand, this foolishness is not solely occurring in America.

I see the same thing. We used to get marked down if we turned in a report that had spelling errors. Now spell check makes that skill obsolete. Not that spelling is the most important subject in the curriculum, but it demonstrates how the priorities have changed. Same thing applies to grammar. Kids don't bother with correct capitalization and punctuation lest it complicate their texting. My favorite example is as follows: "Go help your Uncle Jack off the horse". Now replace the capital letters with lower case and see how the meaning changes.

I've been out of the education loop for quite some time. My daughter graduated from high school in 2004, college in 2009, and since then, I have had zero contact with anyone exposed directly to our educational system. All I know is what I see: Intelligent college graduates that don't know the first thing about personal finance, don't know how World War I started, don't know what the first 10 Amendments to the Constitution are called, don't know what the Holocaust was about.

I've mentored immigrants and helped them prepare for their citizenship test so I know a little bit about the questions they ask. Once during an interlude in a training session with all native born supervisor and hourly leader types, I started peppering them with questions from the test. I was appalled at the lack of civics knowledge demonstrated by our group..didn't know how many Senators each state had, didn't know who their governor was, didn't know how long a POTUS was elected for.

In any event, it would make for a good discussion even though it sounds like we're all pretty much in agreement.

[tarlhawk]

A real compelling read for anyone interested in our educational mess is "NEA the Trojan Horse" authored by Samuel Blumenfeld in 1984. Most parents (opinion...I don't know most parents) are totally unaware of current curiculums at their school. If the teachers aren't asking for meetings because your child is troubled...or your child isn't making trouble ...then the assumption that all is well becomes common. Report cards not identifying problems are often the basis for a bumper sticker "my child is an honor student" proudly displayed on the cars back bumper.

My grade school daughter was sporting straight "A" grades in spelling...we often spoke to our children concerning how they were doing in understanding their homework or if their current subjects were creating any unanswered questions...No dad everything is fine. One time my daughter had a spelling test coming up and was just letting me know...so I got a couple recent spelling quizzes she had gotten A+ on...did a quick check visually...looked good. I started asking her to spell from the list...she was spelling correctly...so I asked her to spell a word out of sequence. She looked uncomfortable and was aware I didn't ask the next word she was expecting to spell. She misspelled...I asked another out of sequence with same results. She told me I was "supposed" to ask them in order. I soon realized she wasn't applying actual spelling skills but was utilizing short term memorization...aided by memorizing them in an ordered sequence.

I don't usually "visit" a school...let alone a teacher...but I was curious if the teacher was aware. I discovered she was aware without bringing it to my daughters attention...because it is no longer a subject that is stressed and since my daughter was well behaved in class...the grades were sort of a reward not merited by skill. ...hmmm so much for trusting grades as an assurance that your child is doing well/learning.

[c_hawkbob]

I agree with you, we are teaching our kids to pass tests in favor of gaining knowledge of the subject matter.

[RiverDog]

A real compelling read for anyone interested in our educational mess is "NEA the Trojan Horse" authored by Samuel Blumenfeld in 1984. Most parents (opinion...I don't know most parents) are totally unaware of current curiculums at their school. If the teachers aren't asking for meetings because your child is troubled...or your child isn't making trouble ...then the assumption that all is well becomes common. Report cards not identifying problems are often the basis for a bumper sticker "my child is an honor student" proudly displayed on the cars back bumper.

My grade school daughter was sporting straight "A" grades in spelling...we often spoke to our children concerning how they were doing in understanding their homework or if their current subjects were creating any unanswered questions...No dad everything is fine. One time my daughter had a spelling test coming up and was just letting me know...so I got a couple recent spelling quizzes she had gotten A+ on...did a quick check visually...looked good. I started asking her to spell from the list...she was spelling correctly...so I asked her to spell a word out of sequence. She looked uncomfortable and was aware I didn't ask the next word she was expecting to spell. She misspelled...I asked another out of sequence with same results. She told me I was "supposed" to ask them in order. I soon realized she wasn't applying actual spelling skills but was utilizing short term memorization...aided by memorizing them in an ordered sequence.

I don't usually "visit" a school...let alone a teacher...but I was curious if the teacher was aware. I discovered she was aware without bringing it to my daughters attention...because it is no longer a subject that is stressed and since my daughter was well behaved in class...the grades were sort of a reward not merited by skill. ...hmmm so much for trusting grades as an assurance that your child is doing well/learning.

I agree with you, we are teaching our kids to pass tests in favor of gaining knowledge of the subject matter.

I've heard complaints from teachers that, due to well intentioned state imposed graduation requirements that dictate what each graduating student must demonstrate knowledge of, forces them to "teach to the test." As part of their job appraisals, teachers are evaluated based in part on how many students they can produce that successfully pass the state exam.

But, like I said, I've been out of the education loop for quite some time.

[Aseahawkfan]

I've heard complaints from teachers that, due to well intentioned state imposed graduation requirements that dictate what each graduating student must demonstrate knowledge of, forces them to "teach to the test." As part of their job appraisals, teachers are evaluated based in part on how many students they can produce that successfully pass the state exam.

But, like I said, I've been out of the education loop for quite some time.

Tests are a measure of competence. Don't see them as a problem. The bigger problem is when the test results don't matter. If a child fails, they just throw out the test and don't worry about it like they don't care if the kid learned the information on the test. They pass them on to continue failing. You're supposed to look at the test results, see if a kid has a weakness or issue, then teach them up. Tests are a teaching tool to measure the ability of a student to use the material taught.

If a child fails, then they fail. You should have alternatives for people who can't cut it other than pushing them on to continue their inability to learn material.

I hope we restructure our education system to focus young people more into trades. Even when I was going to school in the 80s, the trades were overlooked. They were not overlooked when my father was going to school. You could learn how to be a mechanic or work on electrical equipment in shop. Students when I was coming up are pushed into a liberal type education with an extreme focus on subjects like history, English, math, learning a foreign language with some science rather than trades like shop, mechanics, and the like. I imagine more computer programming is included.

I really think they need to start pushing trades more as an option. A lot of kids are not equipped to compete in mathematics and computer programming as well as not being well suited to liberal degrees like social sciences. The trades would be far more favorable for them to learn and provide them better future job opportunities. But this big push for everyone to have some kind of degree even if it doesn't suit them is what modern education is built around. It seems like that isn't working for everyone.

[tarlhawk]

I hope we restructure our education system to focus young people more into trades. Even when I was going to school in the 80s, the trades were overlooked. They were not overlooked when my father was going to school. You could learn how to be a mechanic or work on electrical equipment in shop. Students when I was coming up are pushed into a liberal type education with an extreme focus on subjects like history, English, math, learning a foreign language with some science rather than trades like shop, mechanics, and the like. I imagine more computer programming is included.
I really think they need to start pushing trades more as an option. A lot of kids are not equipped to compete in mathematics and computer programming as well as not being well suited to liberal degrees like social sciences. The trades would be far more favorable for them to learn and provide them better future job opportunities. But this big push for everyone to have some kind of degree even if it doesn't suit them is what modern education is built around. It seems like that isn't working for everyone.

You make some good points. My last two years of school was in a single building for just 11th and 12th graders. My graduating class was 710 students. At the end of 10th grade you had to choose College Prep or Vocational Skills (shop). By the end of 10th grade a career counselor has a pretty good idea on how to "aid" your decision...it was still your choice. College prep got you algebra (I and II) with science/chemistry for 11th grade while 12th grade was basic Calculus and Physics. You could challenge yourself more by taking "Honors" versions of these courses. Shop people got functional math/reading shop drawings and involved car repair/basic trade (Plumbing/Carpentering)/Brazing and wood making projects using woodcraft machinery. Germany uses a system similar to the one you are talking about. For your interest : (Directly Quoted)

16 Nov 2018, 00:00
Paul Hockenos
How Germany’s Vocational Education and Training system works
Germany’s dual-track vocational training program, known as the VET, is the route that around half a million apprentices in Germany take to a skilled profession every year. (There are a total of about 1.3 million apprentices training every year in Germany.)
The dual-track VET’s two components are: classroom study in specialised trade schools and supervised, on-the-job work experience. Over the course of two to four years, apprentices spend a couple of days a week, or even blocks of several weeks at a time, at a vocational school (Berufsschule) where they obtain theoretical knowledge for their occupation of choice. (Classes also include German, English, and social studies.) At the same time, a company or public sector institution hosts the apprentices where they gain practical knowledge and hands-on experience. The novices usually spend 60 percent of their time in the workplace under supervision of a certified trainer, and 40 percent in the classroom.
More than one-third of all pupils graduating from secondary school in Germany enter a vocational training program, of which one-third go on to pursue a single-track, school-based VET and two-thirds the dual-track counterpart. Approximately 68 percent of the latter system’s graduates enter the workforce in the company where they were trained immediately after training

[RiverDog]

I've heard complaints from teachers that, due to well intentioned state imposed graduation requirements that dictate what each graduating student must demonstrate knowledge of, forces them to "teach to the test." As part of their job appraisals, teachers are evaluated based in part on how many students they can produce that successfully pass the state exam.

But, like I said, I've been out of the education loop for quite some time.

Tests are a measure of competence. Don't see them as a problem. The bigger problem is when the test results don't matter. If a child fails, they just throw out the test and don't worry about it like they don't care if the kid learned the information on the test. They pass them on to continue failing. You're supposed to look at the test results, see if a kid has a weakness or issue, then teach them up. Tests are a teaching tool to measure the ability of a student to use the material taught.

The problem isn't the fact that they test, it's the standardization of them. As tarlhawk pointed out, you can pass some tests without knowing the subject. For example, if they use multiple choice questions, so long as you can eliminate a couple of answers, you have a 50/50 chance of answering correctly. Have you ever taken a Wonderlic test? It's timed, so rather than ponder on a question that requires some math, skip over it and answer the no brainers then return to the more difficult questions. What teachers are telling me is that "teaching to the test" robs them of the flexibility to concentrate on weak subjects. If your student can't get math, rather than spend the necessary time to drill it into them, they bypass it in lieu of that student mastering an easy subject that would yield a higher score on a test. Picking the low hanging fruit.

I hope we restructure our education system to focus young people more into trades. Even when I was going to school in the 80s, the trades were overlooked. They were not overlooked when my father was going to school. You could learn how to be a mechanic or work on electrical equipment in shop. Students when I was coming up are pushed into a liberal type education with an extreme focus on subjects like history, English, math, learning a foreign language with some science rather than trades like shop, mechanics, and the like. I imagine more computer programming is included.

I really think they need to start pushing trades more as an option. A lot of kids are not equipped to compete in mathematics and computer programming as well as not being well suited to liberal degrees like social sciences. The trades would be far more favorable for them to learn and provide them better future job opportunities. But this big push for everyone to have some kind of degree even if it doesn't suit them is what modern education is built around. It seems like that isn't working for everyone.

I agree wholeheartedly. Start offering students credits they can use to pay for trade schools or community colleges by taking courses in wiring and plumbing in high school. Offer truck driving classes in high school. If you can get kids interested in trades early you have a better chance of placing them in jobs when they're in their 20's.

[Aseahawkfan]

The problem isn't the fact that they test, it's the standardization of them. As tarlhawk pointed out, you can pass some tests without knowing the subject. For example, if they use multiple choice questions, so long as you can eliminate a couple of answers, you have a 50/50 chance of answering correctly. Have you ever taken a Wonderlic test? It's timed, so rather than ponder on a question that requires some math, skip over it and answer the no brainers then return to the more difficult questions. What teachers are telling me is that "teaching to the test" robs them of the flexibility to concentrate on weak subjects. If your student can't get math, rather than spend the necessary time to drill it into them, they bypass it in lieu of that student mastering an easy subject that would yield a higher score on a test. Picking the low hanging fruit.

All I know is testing isn't the problem. I don't think teachers are either. I think it is more politicians and administrators whose job performance is based on passing standardized tests, so they keep lowering the testing requirements including material on the test and lowering the percentages needed to pass to prevent scrutiny as to how they do their jobs.

Garbage parenting is likely the biggest reason we have issues with education today. Never seen so many uneducated, unambitious people having children who don't really want them and barely take care of them well. I've also never seen so many parents whose kids are in charge. The kid doesn't like something, they don't have to do it. The parent just lets the kid dictate what they want to do because they don't want to tell them what to do. I cannot recall seeing this number of kids who barely listened to their parents, ran around at will, and basically had parents who didn't know what to do with a child that resisted them or often just gave up trying to raise them properly when parenting was tough.

It's kind of amazing the change in this nation's values from my grandparents to my parents to this group of lost Americans who are turning this country into some weird place filled with microaggressions, mental illness, and drug abuse and the like where people don't want to work hard unless you come from another country. This younger generation of people is the weirdest I've ever seen. I can't even imagine what America is going to look when this weird, video game/smartphone generation becomes the dominant group. Super pasty, physically weak, and electronically addicted population whose worldview is influenced by social media Americans. Damn, it's gonna be weird.

[RiverDog]

All I know is testing isn't the problem. I don't think teachers are either. I think it is more politicians and administrators whose job performance is based on passing standardized tests, so they keep lowering the testing requirements including material on the test and lowering the percentages needed to pass to prevent scrutiny as to how they do their jobs.

I honestly don't know what the problem is. I'm just repeating what a couple of teachers have told me. My point was that testing isn't always the best way to measure knowledge.

Garbage parenting is likely the biggest reason we have issues with education today. Never seen so many uneducated, unambitious people having children who don't really want them and barely take care of them well. I've also never seen so many parents whose kids are in charge. The kid doesn't like something, they don't have to do it. The parent just lets the kid dictate what they want to do because they don't want to tell them what to do. I cannot recall seeing this number of kids who barely listened to their parents, ran around at will, and basically had parents who didn't know what to do with a child that resisted them or often just gave up trying to raise them properly when parenting was tough.

It's kind of amazing the change in this nation's values from my grandparents to my parents to this group of lost Americans who are turning this country into some weird place filled with microaggressions, mental illness, and drug abuse and the like where people don't want to work hard unless you come from another country. This younger generation of people is the weirdest I've ever seen. I can't even imagine what America is going to look when this weird, video game/smartphone generation becomes the dominant group. Super pasty, physically weak, and electronically addicted population whose worldview is influenced by social media Americans. Damn, it's gonna be weird.

Perhaps. I don't have enough contact with the 12-18 age groups to offer an intelligent opinion. Some of what you are saying sounds like a generational complaint. I know my parents used to complain to high heaven about kids watching too much TV, about violent television programming was going to turn us kids into hardened criminals, etc.