Mask Mandates

[RiverDog]

I see where that, due to the re-emergence of the Covid virus, that there are counties around the country, including some in S. California, that are re-implementing their Covid protocols to include mandatory mask wearing. I have since changed my opinion regarding such protocols.

I have been fully vaccinated for months. The odds of my catching Covid and spreading it to others are extremely small. At this point, everyone that is eligible to receive a vaccine has had the opportunity to get one, and those that are not eligible, children under 12, are very unlikely to experience life threatening symptoms should they contract the disease. Since the rationale for masks is not so much to protect oneself but to protect others and reduce the spread, there is no practical reason for me to wear one. I am not a threat to anyone.

I have lost my patience for those that refuse to get a vaccine and since nearly all that have become seriously ill are unvaccinated, all my sympathy for most of those that fall ill to Covid has vanished. I assume that since those that have refused to get vaccinated are smart enough to evaluate the risk of taking a vaccine, that they are also smart enough to evaluate the risk of becoming infected with Covid, weighed those two risks against each other, and made their decision.

I will still comply with any and all mandatory protocols, such as private businesses, airlines, and will even comply if any individual asks me to. There are, after all, people that are allergic to vaccines and those where the vaccine isn't as effective, and to those people, I will do everything in my power to help them protect themselves. But outside of those exceptions, I am done with wearing a mask or complying with any other voluntary protocol.

[c_hawkbob]

I'm with you. This has become the pandemic of the unvaccinated and they're bloody well welcome to it.

[RiverDog]

I'm with you. This has become the pandemic of the unvaccinated and they're bloody well welcome to it.

It's become a pandemic of the unvaccinated in this country, that's for sure.

The problem is that by not getting vaccinated and allowing the virus to keep finding hosts, we increase the chances of it mutating into a form that can evade the current vaccines, setting us back to Square One. If not for that fact, along with the fact that some people are allergic to vaccines and that some people's immune systems are compromised, rendering the vaccine less effective, I wouldn't give two hoots in hell if my next door neighbor got vaccinated or not. Perhaps it's God's way of cleansing the gene pool.

[NorthHawk]

The problem is the pockets of population where the virus can thrive and mutate.
Eventually what you worry about with a mutation evading the vaccine will happen.
It’s just a matter of time if enough people aren’t vaccinated in those areas to a
large enough degree to stop the spread and mutations.

I’m going to continue wearing a mask because even though I’m fully vaccinated I still
don’t want to get sick even if its just like a cold and if a mask can prevent that then I’m all for it.
As well, if I’m infected and don’t know it, I don’t want to spread it around to someone who
might be immunocompromised or have family members who might be.

[RiverDog]

The problem is the pockets of population where the virus can thrive and mutate.
Eventually what you worry about with a mutation evading the vaccine will happen.
It’s just a matter of time if enough people aren’t vaccinated in those areas to a
large enough degree to stop the spread and mutations.

I’m going to continue wearing a mask because even though I’m fully vaccinated I still
don’t want to get sick even if its just like a cold and if a mask can prevent that then I’m all for it.
As well, if I’m infected and don’t know it, I don’t want to spread it around to someone who
might be immunocompromised or have family members who might be.

Yeah, I wore my mask for quite some time after I was fully vaccinated. But now there's hardly anyone wearing them in our stores and other indoor locations, so it's pretty pointless for me to wear one. Besides, everyone I associate with has been fully vaccinated, which further reduces the chances of me catching/spreading it.

It's a travesty that there are several billion people throughout the world that would love to roll up their sleeves and take the vaccine yet in this country it's viewed as some sort of attempt by the government to gain more control over us or some stupid crap like that.

[Aseahawkfan]

I'll do what is required and courteous. I wasn't big on mask mandates to begin with. The masks we used in America were often Chinese made masks nowhere close to the quality masks the South Korean government provided their people to really slow this down. I don't think they were very effective myself.

A lot of these younger folks don't care about getting vaccinated because the truth of it is the deadly nature of COVID19 was greatly exaggerated. It mostly killed older people with comorbidities by a huge percentage. At my job I have had 3 people get COVID and had COVID19 twice myself, then talked to people at the job who know family members and friends who have gotten it and only a couple of people died who were both older or in foreign nations. None of the young people died. In fact, they either had no symptoms or were mild.

Even when I had COVID19 last year before they knew what it was, it was just a chest cold that lasted a few days. The second time I got it after being vaccinated, it was a barely noticeable one runny nostril and a loss of smell. I didn't even realize it was COVID until I loss my sense of smell. It lasted about a week.

How are you going to sell young people on taking a vaccine they're reading about having weird side effects versus them knowing friends who have had COVID and had mild to no symptoms for a few days? Which would seem worse to you? The stories of people getting heart inflammation or other issues from a vaccine or the people you know who had COVID who experienced mild to no symptoms for a few days?

If we had had these vaccines earlier when the fear of God was in the hearts of these young people and they thought we were all gonna die, they would have probably lined up to get a COVID19 vaccine. Now that almost everyone knows someone who had COVID19 and it didn't do much, the vaccines seem scarier to some of these young folks.

The press is still trying to sell these Delta Variant as terrible, but the younger and even middle-aged folks I talk to all know people who have gotten COVID and it had no real effect. They aren't worried about it like they used to be. They're of the mind that older people should get vaccinated, but they'll be just fine. And they are about 99% or higher right. COVID has nearly zero effect on a young, healthy person. Hell, not much of an effect on a young, unhealthy person.

I won't reveal tons of information about people at my job, but one thing I will say to illustrate the point is we had a man in his 40s who is a life long smoker get COVID, confirmed test, his worst symptoms were being tired a few days with a mild fever and loss of taste and smell. He recovered just fine, no hospital, no doctor. There are far more of these people out there than ones who died or had serious symptoms.

As I see it the main people that need vaccination are older folks with comorbidities and I mean very old. Younger people should be able to fight this off getting the same immunity as a vaccine.

All these worries about variants won't change with massive vaccines. These variants are coming because COVID19 is like a cold virus and mutates more quickly than we can keep up with. And this vaccine does not appear to kill it off as we're now seeing multiple people getting COVID who have been vaccinated, but are being told their symptoms would be worse if they were not vaccinated with minimal proof of this. We sort of have to trust this process.

And then you see places the United Kingdom and Israel who have some of the most vaccinated populations on the planet having flare ups. This runs contrary to what should have happened in heavily vaccinated populations. Which begs the question is vaccinating the most vulnerable the smartest plan at the moment? I think the answer to that is yes. People who have weaker, less adaptable immune systems should get vaccinated. As long as they get vaccinated, I think we'll be fine without masks and reopening.

[RiverDog]

I'll do what is required and courteous. I wasn't big on mask mandates to begin with. The masks we used in America were often Chinese made masks nowhere close to the quality masks the South Korean government provided their people to really slow this down. I don't think they were very effective myself.

A lot of these younger folks don't care about getting vaccinated because the truth of it is the deadly nature of COVID19 was greatly exaggerated. It mostly killed older people with comorbidities by a huge percentage. At my job I have had 3 people get COVID and had COVID19 twice myself, then talked to people at the job who know family members and friends who have gotten it and only a couple of people died who were both older or in foreign nations. None of the young people died. In fact, they either had no symptoms or were mild.

Even when I had COVID19 last year before they knew what it was, it was just a chest cold that lasted a few days. The second time I got it after being vaccinated, it was a barely noticeable one runny nostril and a loss of smell. I didn't even realize it was COVID until I loss my sense of smell. It lasted about a week.

How are you going to sell young people on taking a vaccine they're reading about having weird side effects versus them knowing friends who have had COVID and had mild to no symptoms for a few days? Which would seem worse to you? The stories of people getting heart inflammation or other issues from a vaccine or the people you know who had COVID who experienced mild to no symptoms for a few days?

If we had had these vaccines earlier when the fear of God was in the hearts of these young people and they thought we were all gonna die, they would have probably lined up to get a COVID19 vaccine. Now that almost everyone knows someone who had COVID19 and it didn't do much, the vaccines seem scarier to some of these young folks.

The press is still trying to sell these Delta Variant as terrible, but the younger and even middle-aged folks I talk to all know people who have gotten COVID and it had no real effect. They aren't worried about it like they used to be. They're of the mind that older people should get vaccinated, but they'll be just fine. And they are about 99% or higher right. COVID has nearly zero effect on a young, healthy person. Hell, not much of an effect on a young, unhealthy person.

I won't reveal tons of information about people at my job, but one thing I will say to illustrate the point is we had a man in his 40s who is a life long smoker get COVID, confirmed test, his worst symptoms were being tired a few days with a mild fever and loss of taste and smell. He recovered just fine, no hospital, no doctor. There are far more of these people out there than ones who died or had serious symptoms.

As I see it the main people that need vaccination are older folks with comorbidities and I mean very old. Younger people should be able to fight this off getting the same immunity as a vaccine.

All these worries about variants won't change with massive vaccines. These variants are coming because COVID19 is like a cold virus and mutates more quickly than we can keep up with. And this vaccine does not appear to kill it off as we're now seeing multiple people getting COVID who have been vaccinated, but are being told their symptoms would be worse if they were not vaccinated with minimal proof of this. We sort of have to trust this process.

And then you see places the United Kingdom and Israel who have some of the most vaccinated populations on the planet having flare ups. This runs contrary to what should have happened in heavily vaccinated populations. Which begs the question is vaccinating the most vulnerable the smartest plan at the moment? I think the answer to that is yes. People who have weaker, less adaptable immune systems should get vaccinated. As long as they get vaccinated, I think we'll be fine without masks and reopening.

A couple points which I thought that you were already aware of.

First of all, Covid's lethality has never been the major threat with the disease. Although it's difficult to calculate compared to other diseases as we've done more testing for Covid than we have for something such as the seasonal flu, it would appear that the odds of any single person dying from Covid are roughly the same as the seasonal flu. However, the major difference with Covid is its transmissibility, it's ability to so easily infect people.

Instead of death rate, if you look at total deaths, a much more quantifiable and comparable statistic, in this country alone, Covid has killed over 600,000 people in about 18 months. A bad flu season kills about 1/10th that amount. There have been more Americans die of Covid than were killed in WW2, Korea, and Vietnam wars combined. And it would have been worse had we not embarked on the most restrictive measures ever taken to combat a disease. Just think how it would have looked had those people that died of Covid died in streets in front of apartment complexes or piled up like cordwood on a beach instead of behind the closed doors of a hospital room. Think of how the media and the public would have reacted under those circumstances. Covid was not overblown or overhyped.

As far as the vaccines go, they are perhaps the most effective, at least the two primary ones, Pfizer and Moderna, are the most effective, safest vaccines that have ever been developed.

The major problem, with both Covid and the vaccines, has been all the disinformation that's out there. Guys like Tucker Carlson should be arrested and charged with murder. As an American of 66 years, the way we have responded to Covid has been the biggest disappointment in my country in my entire life, and that includes the riots, the wars, Watergate, the Trump era, and so on. In my day, you didn't get into a public school unless you were completely vaccinated. We completely eliminated small pox and nearly eradicated polio through vaccinations.

Americans as a whole are irresponsible with the freedoms that we have. They are too stupid to be trusted with rational decisions. I'm almost to the point where I'd advocate tearing up the Constitution and starting over again, replace our democracy with a much more hard line government, eliminate freedom of the press, freedom of speech, the right to bear arms. I'm disgusted with our behavior.

[Aseahawkfan]

A couple points which I thought that you were already aware of.

First of all, Covid's lethality has never been the major threat with the disease. Although it's difficult to calculate compared to other diseases as we've done more testing for Covid than we have for something such as the seasonal flu, it would appear that the odds of any single person dying from Covid are roughly the same as the seasonal flu. However, the major difference with Covid is its transmissibility, it's ability to so easily infect people.

Instead of death rate, if you look at total deaths, a much more quantifiable and comparable statistic, in this country alone, Covid has killed over 600,000 people in about 18 months. A bad flu season kills about 1/10th that amount. There have been more Americans die of Covid than were killed in WW2, Korea, and Vietnam wars combined. And it would have been worse had we not embarked on the most restrictive measures ever taken to combat a disease. Just think how it would have looked had those people that died of Covid died in streets in front of apartment complexes or piled up like cordwood on a beach instead of behind the closed doors of a hospital room. Think of how the media and the public would have reacted under those circumstances. Covid was not overblown or overhyped.

We have more data now than before. It was wise to error on the side of caution. It was not overblown or overhyped. But the data we have now clearly shows the vast majority of deaths were in older people with comorbidities.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statistics_of_the_COVID-19_pandemic_in_the_United_States

This is only percentage of deaths by age based on the total, not on the population. It is far, far lower on a population level. It clearly shows that people under 40 have nearly no chance of dying from COVID19. Even people up to around 54 have little to no chance of dying on a population level.

We have this data now. It clearly shows that vaccinating older populations and those with comorbidities should be sufficient to reduce hospitalization and death count. You always say "Follow the science" and that is what the science clearly shows.

As far as the vaccines go, they are perhaps the most effective, at least the two primary ones, Pfizer and Moderna, are the most effective, safest vaccines that have ever been developed.

The major problem, with both Covid and the vaccines, has been all the disinformation that's out there. Guys like Tucker Carlson should be arrested and charged with murder. As an American of 66 years, the way we have responded to Covid has been the biggest disappointment in my country in my entire life, and that includes the riots, the wars, Watergate, the Trump era, and so on. In my day, you didn't get into a public school unless you were completely vaccinated. We completely eliminated small pox and nearly eradicated polio through vaccinations.

Americans as a whole are irresponsible with the freedoms that we have. They are too stupid to be trusted with rational decisions. I'm almost to the point where I'd advocate tearing up the Constitution and starting over again, replace our democracy with a much more hard line government, eliminate freedom of the press, freedom of speech, the right to bear arms. I'm disgusted with our behavior.

Well, you fall into that category of you would take security over liberty. I'm not on board with your thinking. I think you would leave the nation in a very bad place supporting dictatorial rule. Dictatorial and violent rule kills far more than the 600,000 we have dead right now. Far, far more. Dictatorial and violent rule kills millions. You listed these wars where we lost less than COVID without taking into account all the civilian deaths, the deaths of millions of Jewish and Polish people killed by dictatorial and violent rule as well as the estimated millions killed by The Communist Revolution and men like Stalin and Mao. You're being extremely short-sighted and narrow in your view of deaths focusing solely on the soldiers. Even in the month long war in Afghanistan and Iraq the Civilian deaths were much, much higher than the military deaths. When you take into account civilian deaths in various wars, the count total far exceeds COVID19.

Not to mention even with 600,000 dead by COVID, cardiovascular disease killed more people and you are always against me when I want to tax unhealthy food and have working out be a serious focus in school. Yet it would save a tremendous amount of lives discouraging unhealthy eating and strongly encouraging exercise. The health of people probably would have even saved a tremendous number of people from dying of COVID19 as being obese and having comorbidities was such a huge factor in who died or suffered severe symptoms.

We also have the following information:

Even with One of the highest vaccination rates in the world in the United Kingdom is still surging: https://www.cnbc.com/2021/06/25/uk-closely-watched-with-its-vaccine-program-and-surge-in-cases.html

Israel one of the highest vaccination rates in the world and they are surging: https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/israel-toughens-covid-restrictions-as-delta-infections-rise-1.10009775

Bright spot in all this is people getting the worst of this are unvaccinated people, even those are still older. So if older anti-vaccine folks want to risk their lives, let them. You don't need dictatorial rule. Let the virus do the job on those who want to risk their lives hoping their immune system is good enough to win. Most of them will be right, but those that aren't will pay the ultimate price. That allows both liberty to remain and stupidity to still be punished. I'm good with that.

I'm vaccinated. Most of my family is vaccinated. If a bunch of dumbasses want to put themselves at risk, I'm not giving up my liberty so the government can force some dumbasses to get vaccinated. I'm fine letting them roll the dice. I have enough information to make intelligent decisions and advise my family and friends on vaccination as well as access to the best available vaccines. That's all I expect from our government.

[RiverDog]

From your second link:

Pickering noted that medical data suggests that the U.K.’s high rate of vaccination has significantly weakened the link between recorded Covid infections and complications from the disease, supporting the bank’s call that “the U.K. can get through the new wave of infections without having to tighten restrictions and thus with only limited economic damage.”

Pickering said the data highlighted that this wave of infections was unlike previous ones with the number of recorded infections rising at a slower pace than during the previous wave, and that there had been no clear rise in deaths despite the rise in cases.

Secondly, he noted that new hospital admissions had increased less than recorded infections — and by much less than during the winter wave.

Vaccinations have clearly helped the situation in the UK. Yes, their cases are increasing, but the seriousness is significantly less than it would have been without them.

So much for the vaccines not being effective.

As far as your assertation about young people being immune to Covid, that was true in previous waves, but not this current one:

"This year's virus is not last year's virus. It's attacking our 40-year-olds. It's attacking our parents and young grandparents, and it's getting our kids. And so understanding how different this is and that we can't take our experience from last year and apply it to today and assume we're going to be OK is our biggest fight right now," O'Neal said.

She said her Covid-19 unit now has more patients she would have previously considered healthy than ever before, including people in their 20s.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/docto ... uxbndlbing

Young people have virtually no chance of dying? Not according to this study:

Data from one study shows that of more than 3,000 adults ages 18 to 34 who contracted COVID-19 and became sick enough to require hospital care, 21% ended up in intensive care, 10% were placed on a breathing machine and 2.7% died.

https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/ ... t-risk-too

So let's put to rest this myth that younger people are not at risk to this disease.

[c_hawkbob]

I largely agree with you Riv but you need to update your comparator as being seasonal flu:

Delta is spreading 50% faster than Alpha, which was 50% more contagious than the original strain of SARS-CoV-2, he says. “In a completely unmitigated environment—where no one is vaccinated or wearing masks—it’s estimated that the average person infected with the original coronavirus strain will infect 2.5 other people,” Dr. Wilson says. “In the same environment, Delta would spread from one person to maybe 3.5 or 4 other people.”

https://www.yalemedicine.org/news/5-thi ... iant-covid

Besides greater infection rates, lingering health effects are much more substantial with covid than the flu.

[RiverDog]

I largely agree with you Riv but you need to update your comparator as being seasonal flu:

"Delta is spreading 50% faster than Alpha, which was 50% more contagious than the original strain of SARS-CoV-2, he says. “In a completely unmitigated environment—where no one is vaccinated or wearing masks—it’s estimated that the average person infected with the original coronavirus strain will infect 2.5 other people,” Dr. Wilson says. “In the same environment, Delta would spread from one person to maybe 3.5 or 4 other people.”

https://www.yalemedicine.org/news/5-thi ... iant-covid

Besides greater infection rates, lingering health effects are much more substantial with covid than the flu.

Good point. I more or less made the comparison without putting much thought in it since nearly everyone wants to compare Covid to the flu.

Here's some more information on how this current wave of infections is affecting young people:

Katie Towns, acting director of the Springfield-Greene County Health Department in Missouri, told CNN Friday the department is requesting an alternative care site and staff from the state to address the growing number of Covid-19 cases and hospitalizations, saying, "It's at a level that we've not seen before,"

"Most striking is the demographic and age," she said of Covid-19 patients, "almost all" of whom are unvaccinated. "The illness has really shifted from being an older population ... to being ages 20, 30, 40 years old in the hospital and needing ICU care and oxygen."

https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/health ... cid=msnews

It doesn't mean that young people are MORE susceptible to Covid than older people, rather the fact that younger people are much more likely not to be vaccinated than adults 50+ means that they're the ones that are going to fall ill from it. Additionally, unless the vaccination rates pick up soon, the new Delta variant will spread to so many people that it will start driving up infection rates amongst older people as well as the vaccines are not 100% effective and there are still some adults that have not been vaccinated.

The really frustrating part of this wave is that it's almost entirely preventable. Had we sustained our vaccination rates from what they were last spring, we would have vaccinated 80+% of the population by now. But now, we're opening everything back up, eliminating the mask mandates and other protocols, and these unvaccinated, highly social and mobile young people are going to keep this pandemic going.

[Aseahawkfan]

From your second link:

Pickering noted that medical data suggests that the U.K.’s high rate of vaccination has significantly weakened the link between recorded Covid infections and complications from the disease, supporting the bank’s call that “the U.K. can get through the new wave of infections without having to tighten restrictions and thus with only limited economic damage.”

Pickering said the data highlighted that this wave of infections was unlike previous ones with the number of recorded infections rising at a slower pace than during the previous wave, and that there had been no clear rise in deaths despite the rise in cases.

Secondly, he noted that new hospital admissions had increased less than recorded infections — and by much less than during the winter wave.

Vaccinations have clearly helped the situation in the UK. Yes, their cases are increasing, but the seriousness is significantly less than it would have been without them.

So much for the vaccines not being effective.

As far as your assertation about young people being immune to Covid, that was true in previous waves, but not this current one:

"This year's virus is not last year's virus. It's attacking our 40-year-olds. It's attacking our parents and young grandparents, and it's getting our kids. And so understanding how different this is and that we can't take our experience from last year and apply it to today and assume we're going to be OK is our biggest fight right now," O'Neal said.

She said her Covid-19 unit now has more patients she would have previously considered healthy than ever before, including people in their 20s.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/docto ... uxbndlbing

Young people have virtually no chance of dying? Not according to this study:

Data from one study shows that of more than 3,000 adults ages 18 to 34 who contracted COVID-19 and became sick enough to require hospital care, 21% ended up in intensive care, 10% were placed on a breathing machine and 2.7% died.

https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/ ... t-risk-too

So let's put to rest this myth that younger people are not at risk to this disease.

3000 adults from one study and on a population level is not a significant risk. Not sure why you are painting it that way. It is not representative of population level COVID and is a single study. Which there are many studies to counter and the overall numbers clearly showing young people are not at a significant risk of death from COVID. To say otherwise is to spread misinformation. Spreading misinformation is why people can ignore positions like yours when these younger folks can simply see the numbers of people dying and hospitalized and it clearly, very clearly shows, they are not at significant risk which does not mean no risk.

Already covered vaccinated people having lesser symptoms. Literally wrote that in my original response.

From your own article you posted,

"A recent increase in Covid-19 hospitalizations among adolescents reinforces the importance of getting vaccinated and practicing prevention measures against the virus, according to a study released Friday.

The report looked at hospitalization data for 12-to-17-year-olds from a large coronavirus surveillance network and found 204 adolescents (extremely small number) who were likely (not even confirmed all COVID as reason) hospitalized primarily for Covid-19 between January 1 and March 31, 2021 (over a 3 month period). Nearly a third were admitted to intensive care units and roughly 4.9% required invasive mechanical ventilation. [b]There were no associated deaths.

COVID is not a significant threat to younger people. It is clearly shown as a low death rate and low hospitalization rate. Attempting to paint this as otherwise is spreading misinformation countered by available medical evidence.

The information you posted doesn't indicate that it is worse than previous COVID by the numbers. It is part of the scare articles like young people have seen posted over and over again while the real death numbers clearly show that young people are not at significant risk or death or hospitalization. It is an attempt to scare young people into getting the vaccine. Whether it works or not, we will see.

You want these vaccines to be the cure all so badly that you are willing to spread your own misinformation as well as give up your freedom to make that happen. Not sure why you think that is acceptable.

As long as we vaccinate older and vulnerable people, we will be absolutely fine. We will have to learn to live with this. It will continue to mutate and return yearly for at least a few more years until maybe the new strains weaken sufficiently to die off or at least reach flu levels. Vaccination will be be yearly and will focus on older and vulnerable folks as the flu does unless there is a strain that clearly is a high risk to younger people.

Stop freaking out. It does no good to act in an irrational manner because of your own belief in these vaccines. Just make sure you and yours get vaccinated and you should be mostly fine.

The clear proof is that the vaccinations are getting penetrated by COVID 19, but are reducing symptoms in vulnerable populations. That's where the focus should be just as it is with the flu. Younger people will come around when they have to, but it should not prevent vaccination from being effective.

Damn, am I glad you don't have any real power in this country. And I'm glad I didn't have to listen to you during the even worse flu pandemic of 1918. You are straight up freaking out willing to give up all your freedoms and adopt some Communist/Socialist government system to control people because of your own fear. I guess even usually rational, freedom loving people have a point where they will give up almost everything just to feel safe.

[Aseahawkfan]

I'm going to make one last post in this thread and move on. This isn't a rational conversation in my opinion.

First, I'm not not anti-vaccination. I strongly encourage as many as people as possible to get a vaccine as its immunity boosting effects are proven.

Second, even as much I believe in the vaccination, I am not going to lie about the data. The data clearly shows young people are not at significant risk of death or hospitalization from COVID. This does not mean no risk, but it is not significant like it is for older and vulnerable people.

Third, as long as we keep pushing vaccination and building up immunity either from vaccination or infection, we should get through this fine without having to lockdown again.

Fourth, we should use the data we have to rationally manage COVID. It isn't necessary to employ draconian measures to do so.

Fifth, Just remember that even vaccinated, you need to manage your risk. It is confirmed that COVID can penetrate the current vaccines even with lesser symptoms. Personal risk should still be managed.

That was the main point of my post. I am not going to change my mind unless I see population level data that suggests I should. I'm glad the government and leadership is taking available data on COVID's risk to younger people as a reason to continue reopening now that the majority of our older people are vaccinated. It would be irrational and fear-based to do otherwise. This is now a risk management situation and the data and science should allow us to manage this without resorting to previous economically destructive measures we took to get through the first year as we collected data and developed vaccines and treatments for COVID.

And that's my last thoughts on this matter. I'm not at all for tearing up any Constitutional ideas to push this. That's insane to me.

[RiverDog]

If it's no longer a rational discussion, then you're doing all you can to make it that way by making unsupported statements like when you suggested that those that natural immunity is just as good as a vaccination when there is no evidence to support this, indeed, there is evidence to support just the opposite.

For most immunities, vaccines not only are safer but produce a more robust response. This includes vaccines for HPV, tetanus, and pneumonia; mumps is an exception. The other benefit of a vaccine over natural immunity is its standardization. First, unlike acquiring natural immunity, you can choose when you get vaccinated. Second, while natural immunity provokes a range of responses, vaccines are designed to create the most significant immune response without safety concerns.

For the COVID-19 vaccines, there remain two questions. How long will the immunity last? We don’t know yet, but only time will tell. Again, most vaccines confer equally long-lasting immunity. The two mRNA vaccines are targeted at the spike protein. Natural immunity can target the spike and other viral shapes, which might allow natural immunity to protect against some variants; again, we do not know. What we do know is that getting your immunity by contracting COVID-19 is a crapshoot; being vaccinated is exceedingly efficacious and safe.

https://www.acsh.org/news/2021/03/19/na ... tter-15409

As far as my advocation of tearing up the Constitution, I made my statement to express my frustration with my fellow Americans, not as a solution that I advocate. This is not a great country anymore. Everything we do has to have some sort of a political or racial tilt to it. As a group, we can't handle our freedoms because we do not have the intellectual ability to make informed decisions about our own personal welfare and that of our communities.

If you want to bow out of the discussion, that's fine. I appreciate your contributions.

[I-5]

Just dropping by to say hi. We've been so busy at my company for the past 6 months, I just haven't been able to check in much anymore. I guess that's mostly a good thing in terms of business. Things have definitely picked up since the last half of 2020, and I'm preparing for my first trip across the border next month to see family and friends in Seattle.

Regarding this topic: despite disagreements here, I maintain that if the rest of the country showed as much good citizenship as this forum, we'd be much better off. FYI we finally received our 2nd dose (mine was Moderna) last month. Canada had supply problems early on but has been aggressively getting as many vaccinated as possible, and I'm glad to say that 70% of the population has received their first dose, and 49% are fully vaccinated. That obviously means we still have our fair share of anti-vaxxers of course, but the numbers could be a lot worse. Regarding masks, my wife has started not wearing hers after her first dose, whereas I still wear mine whenever I go out and have to be indoors. We do go to a few restaurants, but I'm picky about which ones feel safe and try to limit the frequency. All other businesses still recommend masks indoors, and I find about 90-95% of the people I see still wear theirs. That makes me feel safer. Cheers if I don't see you again for a few weeks/months lol.

[RiverDog]

Just dropping by to say hi. We've been so busy at my company for the past 6 months, I just haven't been able to check in much anymore. I guess that's mostly a good thing in terms of business. Things have definitely picked up since the last half of 2020, and I'm preparing for my first trip across the border next month to see family and friends in Seattle.

Regarding this topic: despite disagreements here, I maintain that if the rest of the country showed as much good citizenship as this forum, we'd be much better off. FYI we finally received our 2nd dose (mine was Moderna) last month. Canada had supply problems early on but has been aggressively getting as many vaccinated as possible, and I'm glad to say that 70% of the population has received their first dose, and 49% are fully vaccinated. That obviously means we still have our fair share of anti-vaxxers of course, but the numbers could be a lot worse. Regarding masks, my wife has started not wearing hers after her first dose, whereas I still wear mine whenever I go out and have to be indoors. We do go to a few restaurants, but I'm picky about which ones feel safe and try to limit the frequency. All other businesses still recommend masks indoors, and I find about 90-95% of the people I see still wear theirs. That makes me feel safer. Cheers if I don't see you again for a few weeks/months lol.

Hey, guy! I was afraid that you had bolted this forum. Glad to see that you're still around. Glad to hear that you got your jab. I hope those microchips didn't cause too much swelling.

You've always been a very good poster with reasonable takes and a politeness that we all could use a good dose of every now and then.

I've taken note of Canada's progress on the vaccine front and after a sluggish start, have finally gotten their act together. It seems that many of these nations with socialized health care systems got caught behind the 8 ball when it came to the vaccine rollout. If Trump did one thing right during his time, it was that his administration got behind the vaccines early, financed their development, and put down a hefty down payment on them so that we got ours first.

Stop by again for more than just a cup of coffee!

[NorthHawk]

Trump and then Biden also restricted export of vaccines even to countries that had purchased them.
I think the hoarding of astrazeneca is almost criminal considering it hasn’t been approved in the U.S.
How many people in poor countries died or suffered because they can’t get any vaccine that’s sitting
in a warehouse not being used?

[c_hawkbob]

Well, not quite accurate, the contracts with the drug manufacturers were strictly Trump's 'Operation Warp Speed':

The contracts the Trump administration signed with the vaccine manufacturers prohibit the U.S. from sharing its surplus doses with the rest of the world. According to contract language Vanity Fair has obtained, the agreements with Pfizer, Moderna, AstraZeneca, and Janssen state: “The Government may not use, or authorize the use of, any products or materials provided under this Project Agreement, unless such use occurs in the United States” or U.S. territories.

But you are correct that it has indeed carried over into the Biden administration:

“That is what has completely and totally prohibited the U.S. from donating or reselling, because it would be in breach of contract,” said a senior administration official involved in the global planning effort. “It is a complete and total ban. Those legal parameters must change before we do anything to help the rest of the world.”

I don't know what it would take to change those legal parameters but it doesn't seem to be as simple a Biden giving the thumbs up to it:

In a statement to Vanity Fair, a Defense Department spokesperson acknowledged the contract restrictions, saying: “DoD did attempt to negotiate terms that would allow the use of vaccine doses outside the U.S., but in some cases, the vaccine manufacturers refused.”

But there is more being done to share the vaccine than you make it seem:

The impasse is especially frustrating because the Biden team’s global ambitions go beyond donating money or surplus vaccines. Vanity Fair has learned that the administration is quietly considering plans to have the U.S. serve as a major manufacturer of affordable, high-quality COVID vaccines for the entire world—a role typically reserved for lower-cost countries such as India. The effort began in plain sight on March 2, when the administration announced that, under the Defense Production Act, Merck would repurpose two of its U.S. manufacturing plants to begin producing the Johnson & Johnson vaccine. The partnership, pairing two traditional rivals, could yield as many as one billion doses a year.

As far as A.Z. specifically, they are shipping out as legalities are met:

On Sunday, March 28, the U.S. government took what appeared to be another small step toward that goal. A cargo plane touched down in Mexico City bearing 1.5 million doses of the AstraZeneca vaccine that is being manufactured here, but still has not been approved by U.S. drug regulators. Ten days earlier, the Biden administration had announced plans to “loan” 4 million AstraZeneca doses to Mexico and Canada, and this was the first installment.

Before the doses could be shipped, the two countries had to negotiate separate contracts to indemnify AstraZeneca. Even then, the use of the term “loan” was designed to end-run the language in the original Operation Warp Speed contracts.

https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2021/04 ... es-in-need

This article (it's long but an educating read) is from April so I am sure more has been done since it's writing, but it still serves to illustrate the difficulties of rolling the vaccine out to other countries, especially when they have to involve the courts to do so.

[RiverDog]

I don't think that Biden was restricted from releasing the stockpiles of the A-Z vaccine because he was legally prevented from doing so. In fact he had already released a small percentage of the AZ stockpile:

That raises the question for Biden: What to do with AstraZeneca’s vaccine? The company has more than 20 million doses already on hand, part of a total of between 80 and 90 million in some stage of production for the U.S. order, the people familiar with the matter said. American allies have already sought doses from the U.S. AstraZeneca stockpile, and the cheaper vaccine could inoculate people in scores of low-income countries that can’t afford inoculations from Pfizer Inc. and Moderna Inc.

Biden didn’t change that order, so AstraZeneca began producing shots in the U.S. in anticipation of eventual FDA approval. Last month (March 2021), the president agreed to send 4.2 million doses of AstraZeneca’s vaccine to Mexico and Canada, an arrangement the administration termed a “loan.” When those doses are included, the running U.S. AstraZeneca total is nearly 30 million so far, the people said.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/compani ... r-BB1frQAl

If he could release 4.2 million doses, there's no legal reason why he couldn't release 30 or 40 million.

My understanding of why Biden didn't release more of the A-Z vaccine was because they were worried about a production or distribution problem with one or more of the 3 existing vaccines here in the US, which IMO was preposterous. By April, we were well on track to have enough vaccine that we'd soon be swimming in it, which is exactly where we're at today.

I don't accept that the reason that Biden couldn't have distributed those doses was due to some sort of legal problem. It was a fricking emergency and lives were at stake. IMO the reason he didn't release them was because he was worried about the potential politics if something happened to our other 3 vaccines.

I haven't criticized very much of Biden's management of the pandemic, but this was one area that he really dropped the ball. He did not act nearly aggressively enough back in March and April to get more doses out to other areas of the world, in particular to our closest neighbors, Canada and Mexico, of whom we share a continent with and was in our own selfish interest to help stop the spread in this country.

[c_hawkbob]

That's the same information I linked other than the addition of your own speculation. Did you read my full post?

[RiverDog]

That's the same information I linked other than the addition of your own speculation. Did you read my full post?

Yes, I did read your full post, and here's the part I was disagreeing with:

“That is what has completely and totally prohibited the U.S. from donating or reselling, because it would be in breach of contract,” said a senior administration official involved in the global planning effort. “It is a complete and total ban. Those legal parameters must change before we do anything to help the rest of the world.”

I don't know what it would take to change those legal parameters but it doesn't seem to be as simple a Biden giving the thumbs up to it:

I do think was as simple as Biden giving his thumbs up to "it", ie loaning vaccines to other countries. If he can 'loan' 4+ million doses, I don't see what was preventing him from loaning 20-40 million. As I said, the information I've heard regarding the subject is that Biden was afraid that something might happen to the supply of our other three vaccines...Keeping in mind that this was from back in early March when our roll-out was going very smoothly and Astra Zeneca hadn't even applied for FDA approval.

[c_hawkbob]

So be it. I'll take the word of the administration official tasked with sharing the vaccine with the rest of the world. I expect he'd have more first hand information.

[RiverDog]

So be it. I'll take the word of the administration official tasked with sharing the vaccine with the rest of the world. I expect he'd have more first hand information.

Believe what you want to believe, it still doesn't answer my question: Why would Biden be legally prevented from shipping 20 million doses when he was able to ship 4.2 million? It doesn't make sense.

IMO that legal mumbo jumbo is a big fat excuse for protecting the AZ inventory as insurance in case of some really bad sequence of events left us short. I mean, who's going to stop him? The courts? Congress? If Trump can find a way to get money for his hideous border wall, you would think that Biden would be able to get surplus vaccine doses to other countries when thousands of lives are at stake.

[c_hawkbob]

Why would Biden be legally prevented from shipping 20 million doses when he was able to ship 4.2 million? It doesn't make sense.

Oh come on like half the sh!t coming from any court makes any more sense. You believe what you want evidently, as if there must be some nefarious reason they'd do it that way rather than what they said. Perhaps you missed the part about both countries having to reach separate agreements to indemnify AZ to get that first shipment sent. That's 3 entities (two countries and a corporation) involved in each agreement, you have no idea how or at who's behest the number was reached, you just like to assume it must be the Democratic administration ... get your Republican cred back after the previous administration. Honestly, I don't blame you, I just choose to take them at there word till I have reason not to.

[RiverDog]

Why would Biden be legally prevented from shipping 20 million doses when he was able to ship 4.2 million? It doesn't make sense.

Oh come on like half the sh!t coming from any court makes any more sense. You believe what you want evidently, as if there must be some nefarious reason they'd do it that way rather than what they said. Perhaps you missed the part about both countries having to reach separate agreements to indemnify AZ to get that first shipment sent. That's 3 entities (two countries and a corporation) involved in each agreement, you have no idea how or at who's behest the number was reached, you just like to assume it must be the Democratic administration ... get your Republican cred back after the previous administration. Honestly, I don't blame you, I just choose to take them at there word till I have reason not to.

So the best answer you can come up with is "there must be some nefarious reason"? Why is that anymore plausible than my suggestion that the low ball number that he picked to ship was for political reasons, to cover his ass if our domestic supply chain had problems?

I give Biden relatively high marks for his handling of the pandemic, especially when contrasted to his predecessor. But he hasn't been nearly aggressive enough, not willing to take even a moderate risk, to share our surplus vaccine with other countries. Hell, members of his own party have criticized him for not releasing more vaccine:

The Biden administration has come under criticism from several quarters, including from members and supporters of the Democratic party, for not releasing surplus COVID-19 vaccines to India when the country is experiencing its worst-ever public health crisis.

Indian-American Congressman Raja Krishnamoorthi urged the Biden administration to release doses of the AstraZeneca vaccine to countries currently experiencing the deadly surge in COVID-19 cases.

"When people in India and elsewhere desperately need help, we can't let vaccines sit in a warehouse, we need to get them where they'll save lives," he said.

"We are currently sitting on close to 40 million doses of the AstraZeneca vaccine in the US stockpile, a stockpile which we're not using and which we've already opened to combat COVID-19 in Mexico and Canada," he said said.

https://www.businesstoday.in/latest/eco ... 2021-04-25

You'll also have to explain to me why this Democratic congressman is just as uninformed as to the reason for Biden's reluctance to release more vaccine as I am. Perhaps he, too, is looking to get his Republican credentials back

[NorthHawk]

The contract reason is just an excuse.
If the contracts are required and OK'd for developed and wealthy countries, that same contract can be used for
those poorer countries. It's simply the desire to not send the vaccine to other countries than those currently
permitted to receive it. Contracts with govt's are given, pulled, modified all the time so it's not that big of a deal.

If he wants a reserve stockpile of 40 million doses, he can have that. Just tell the makers of the vaccine that
they have to have that amount on hand and any extra they produce can be shipped abroad. It's also bad health
policy in that the variants that do occur will eventually land back in the US and probably kill people here.

The impasse is especially frustrating because the Biden team’s global ambitions go beyond donating money or surplus vaccines. Vanity Fair has learned that the administration is quietly considering plans to have the U.S. serve as a major manufacturer of affordable, high-quality COVID vaccines for the entire world—a role typically reserved for lower-cost countries such as India. The effort began in plain sight on March 2, when the administration announced that, under the Defense Production Act, Merck would repurpose two of its U.S. manufacturing plants to begin producing the Johnson & Johnson vaccine. The partnership, pairing two traditional rivals, could yield as many as one billion doses a year.

This implies there is a political motive for not shipping the vaccine to those countries that need it the most. And it's cost some people their lives because of it.

[c_hawkbob]

Sorry but I infer no such implication. I am taking the article and those quoted therein at their word. It's Riv and yourself that are reading what suits you into it based upon your assumptions about how you think things 'must be'.

As for the congressman of Indian heritage, of course he wants vaccines for his homeland, but I can see the administration's interest in making bordering countries safe first. I can also se the reason for dedicating one dose vaccines for poorer countries for logistical reason's (now there you have my first assumptions in this discussion) and I truly hope those, as well as the existing AZ doses get out ASAP, tomorrow wouldn't be soon enough for me personally, but I'm not ready to demonize people tasked with doing so without more to go on.

[RiverDog]

Sorry but I infer no such implication. I am taking the article and those quoted therein at their word. It's Riv and yourself that are reading what suits you into it based upon your assumptions about how you think things 'must be'.

As for the congressman of Indian heritage, of course he wants vaccines for his homeland, but I can see the administration's interest in making bordering countries safe first. I can also se the reason for dedicating one dose vaccines for poorer countries for logistical reason's (now there you have my first assumptions in this discussion) and I truly hope those, as well as the existing AZ doses get out ASAP, tomorrow wouldn't be soon enough for me personally, but I'm not ready to demonize people tasked with doing so without more to go on.

4.2 million doses between two countries with a combined population of over 165 million people hardly qualifies as "making bordering countries safe first". That's only about 10-15% of what he had sitting around in warehouses.

Also, should not the Indian-American congressman understand, as you apparently do, that the only reason why Biden wasn't being more aggressive in releasing the the 40 million doses of the AZ vaccine, which even today, hasn't even applied for FDA approval, was simply because of legalities?

Here's the real reason why Biden didn't release the doses earlier. From an article published in late April:

(Up until late April,) The Biden administration had said it would wait to share significant numbers of its doses with other countries until it had ensured enough supply for Americans.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/white- ... r-n1265398

IMO that's a load of horse crap. By late February, it was readily apparent that by spring, production would have caught up with demand and we'd be swimming in vaccine. Biden was at least 6 weeks late in releasing significant amounts of the AZ vaccine, while in the meantime, people were dying and the virus had more opportunities to mutate. If instead of a 'D' behind Biden's name there was an 'R', you'd be squealing like a squished chicken.

[NorthHawk]

Sorry but I infer no such implication. I am taking the article and those quoted therein at their word. It's Riv and yourself that are reading what suits you into it based upon your assumptions about how you think things 'must be'.

As for the congressman of Indian heritage, of course he wants vaccines for his homeland, but I can see the administration's interest in making bordering countries safe first. I can also se the reason for dedicating one dose vaccines for poorer countries for logistical reason's (now there you have my first assumptions in this discussion) and I truly hope those, as well as the existing AZ doses get out ASAP, tomorrow wouldn't be soon enough for me personally, but I'm not ready to demonize people tasked with doing so without more to go on.

Vanity Fair has learned that the administration is quietly considering plans to have the U.S. serve as a major manufacturer of affordable, high-quality COVID vaccines for the entire world—a role typically reserved for lower-cost countries such as India

I don't know how anyone can infer anything other than a conscious decision to not release vaccine in quantities because of politics.
It's a decision that requires not sharing in order to develop the manufacturing infrastructure at home thus creating a marketplace around the globe.

What they don't understand is the companies are multinational so they have plants in other countries and can set up shop in any country they choose.
In the case of India, they manufacture the vaccine locally, but with their massive population, they can't produce enough to keep ahead of the virus spread and
that's where major variants will probably be produced first.

[c_hawkbob]

It's a decision that requires not sharing in order to develop the manufacturing infrastructure at home thus creating a marketplace around the globe.

Nonsense. All it's saying is that the US is willing to manufacture these vaccines rather than leaving it up to countries with lower production costs. The infrastructure to do so is already 100% in place.

[RiverDog]

Vanity Fair has learned that the administration is quietly considering plans to have the U.S. serve as a major manufacturer of affordable, high-quality COVID vaccines for the entire world—a role typically reserved for lower-cost countries such as India

I don't know how anyone can infer anything other than a conscious decision to not release vaccine in quantities because of politics. It's a decision that requires not sharing in order to develop the manufacturing infrastructure at home thus creating a marketplace around the globe.

What they don't understand is the companies are multinational so they have plants in other countries and can set up shop in any country they choose. In the case of India, they manufacture the vaccine locally, but with their massive population, they can't produce enough to keep ahead of the virus spread and that's where major variants will probably be produced first.

Although I agree 100% that Biden's reluctance to release the vaccines has to do with politics, I don't think he or his people are that dumb as to assume that if we manufacture the vaccines domestically during a global crisis that it will insure US based production facilities continued dominance in the industry beyond the pandemic. IMO the more likely reason is the one I've proposed, that he was afraid that something totally unexpected might happen to the supply of the 3 approved vaccines and that it would give his critics ammunition that he's not taking care of America first.

If you go back and take a look at Biden's first 100 days in office, you can see that his decision making has been very sluggish and methodical. He deferred action on the halt of construction of Trump's border wall and he deferred action on gun control legislation, both of which were campaign promises he said he'd do on Day 1. He has been slow to appoint critical justice department posts, slow in appointing ambassadors, and so on. His hesitancy to release the vaccines fits a pattern of behavior that's been well established since he took office, indeed, his avoidance of risk can be traced back throughout his entire political career.

Nevertheless, we both agree that there was no justifiable reason for Biden to be sitting on tens of millions of doses of life saving vaccine while the rest of the world suffered.

[RiverDog]

More and more employers are jumping on board the vaccination bandwagon. Tyson Foods, a major employer in my area and one with a lot of unvaccinated workers in a plant that had one of the first Covid outbreaks in the pandemic, just announced that they would require all of their 56,000 workers nationwide, along with their vendors and visitors, to get vaccinated by Oct. 1st:

https://www.nbcrightnow.com/coronavirus ... F2NzRgdskM

A lot of employers, hesitant to apply vaccination requirements because they are fearful of losing employees, have been sitting on the sidelines and waiting for others to go first. Once some of these big boys take the plunge and leave the unvaccinated with fewer employment options, I would expect more to follow suit.

The same goes for restaurants requiring patrons to show proof of vaccination in order to be served. There's currently 130 restaurants and bars in the Seattle area that are requiring proof of vaccination in order to be served. Once restaurants see that they're not alone and that customers options are limited, more will take up similar requirements.

This is why it was so important for Biden to mandate that all federal employees get vaccinated. Not only is the federal government the largest employer in the country, the fact that they have mandated it gives private companies firm legal ground on which to issue their own requirements. I wish he would have taken his action many weeks sooner than he did instead of waiting for the Delta variant to get out of control, but better late than never.

The next big step will be full approval of the Pfizer vaccine, which is anticipated in early September, perhaps sooner. Then people will no longer be able to make a credible claim that the vaccines are "experimental". After that happens, I'd expect even more to come to the party, including school districts and the military.

[NorthHawk]

They seem to be going the "vaccine passport" route in France - or something like it.
Once they said people couldn't go to their local Cafe without proof of vaccination, the vaccination rate soared.
Quebec has outright said they are going to use a vaccine passport and once announced vaccine rates also increased significantly.
I don't know if these two examples can be used for all of western society, but it does suggest that the vaccine passport idea isn't
as disliked as some may think and that the fear of missing out on a more normal life might encourage others to get vaccinated.

[RiverDog]

They seem to be going the "vaccine passport" route in France - or something like it.
Once they said people couldn't go to their local Cafe without proof of vaccination, the vaccination rate soared.
Quebec has outright said they are going to use a vaccine passport and once announced vaccine rates also increased significantly.
I don't know if these two examples can be used for all of western society, but it does suggest that the vaccine passport idea isn't
as disliked as some may think and that the fear of missing out on a more normal life might encourage others to get vaccinated.

One of the problems we have here is that there is no uniform proof of vaccination beyond the flimsy piece of paper with the CDC logo given to us when we got our first shot. When I got my first Covid shot, I had to write in my name and birthdate on the card given to me by hand. They are easy to fake. In addition, vaccination records are a scattered to all hell and gone. I discovered that our state DOH has a website where you can check and see what vaccination records they have on file for us and they were missing a bunch on mine. Same thing with my medical provider. They don't have complete records, either. I've been getting annual flu shots for 10 years and they only had just a couple recorded. Pharmacies are notoriously bad for not reporting a vaccination to a provider and/or state DOH, CDC, et al.

That's one thing that needs to change once this thing is all said and done, a complete overhaul of our record keeping system.

[NorthHawk]

One of the advantages of a universal health care system is a central registry where everyone is given a
health number or equivalent. It then becomes easier to keep track of who has received what treatments
and offer official validations. In Canada each province is responsible for the delivery of health services so it’s
slightly different across the country, but the single payer and ability to register are basically the same. One
problem with a National vaccine passport is developing a central registry on a national scale and possible
privacy issues that might arise. Whereas countries in Europe for the most part have a single health payer
and registry already in place so it’s easier to make health related decisions for them.

[Hawktawk]

I went in walmart the other day and almost masked up. Its coming back for sure along with the rude belligerent freedom fighting jackasses.

This is shaping up a lot like the spanish flu. This delta variant is terrifying affecting much younger healthier people, filling up pediatric wards in Gov Ron Deathsantis state of florida with under 50% vaccinated , blowing up in mainly red states with low vaccination rates and very few protocols BUT CREATING VARIANTS THAT THREATEN THE ENTIRE NATION AND WORLD. Fauci who is not perfect but who i trust far more than Tucker Carlson has said far worse than delta could easily be coming if we let this thing continue to spin off variants by not getting vaccinated.To Jay Inslee's credit WA has one of the flattest curves in the nation with our 70%* vaccination rate and stricter protocols, later opening although the flatland earth society part of the state east of the cascades is far worse due to the sub cult of anti vax denial from the trumpanzee party.

America may yet be too stupid, too selfish, too deluded by conspiracy freaks to survive this. Its absolutely sickening that we are exporting this to other needy countries who are crying out for it and people who can get it at the corner drugstore wont endangering all of us. I've really come to loathe them.

https://www.the-sun.com/news/3432685/fl ... uci-dies/I wish this was Deathsantis, I really do.It would serve him absolutely right

[RiverDog]

I went in walmart the other day and almost masked up. Its coming back for sure along with the rude belligerent freedom fighting jackasses.

This is shaping up a lot like the spanish flu. This delta variant is terrifying affecting much younger healthier people, filling up pediatric wards in Gov Ron Deathsantis state of florida with under 50% vaccinated , blowing up in mainly red states with low vaccination rates and very few protocols BUT CREATING VARIANTS THAT THREATEN THE ENTIRE NATION AND WORLD. Fauci who is not perfect but who i trust far more than Tucker Carlson has said far worse than delta could easily be coming if we let this thing continue to spin off variants by not getting vaccinated.To Jay Inslee's credit WA has one of the flattest curves in the nation with our 70%* vaccination rate and stricter protocols, later opening although the flatland earth society part of the state east of the cascades is far worse due to the sub cult of anti vax denial from the trumpanzee party.

America may yet be too stupid, too selfish, too deluded by conspiracy freaks to survive this. Its absolutely sickening that we are exporting this to other needy countries who are crying out for it and people who can get it at the corner drugstore wont endangering all of us. I've really come to loathe them.

https://www.the-sun.com/news/3432685/fl ... auci-dies/

I wish this was Deathsantis, I really do. It would serve him absolutely right

There's more dynamics going on with vaccine hesitancy than right wing politics. Blacks and Hispanics, not exactly Trumpanzees, are not getting the poke, and since many of them live in the deep south, they are contributing to the surge as well. In addition, younger people, another group that is not associated with right wing politics, aren't getting the jab, either.

If the Delta variant behaves like it did in India and the UK, it's likely to run its course with or without vaccines:

The delta variant has been spreading throughout the world. In fact, the delta variant made up 90% of COVID-19 cases earlier this summer in the United Kingdom, as I wrote for the Deseret News.

So what happened in the United Kingdom? Well, recent data suggests that new confirmed cases of COVID-19 in the European Union and the United Kingdom experienced a massive spike at the beginning of the delta variant wave. However, soon after, cases dropped significantly due to high vaccinations and, it would appear, immunity gained from being infected.

So let’s move to India. What happened in India, where the delta variant was originally discovered? Well, there was a second wave of coronavirus cases in India once the delta variant emerged, causing hundreds of thousands of cases throughout the country.

But cases declined significantly within a month or two. Daily cases were around 400,000 in May before dropping to about 40,000 in July.

https://www.deseret.com/coronavirus/202 ... redictions

I'd like to point out that even today, only 8.1% of India's population is fully vaccinated. It's possible that this Delta variant is so contagious that it infects everyone at the same time, leaving it no one to spread to and dies on the vine. Combine that with the fact that we've vaccinated over 50% of our population, we should see this 5th wave peter out this fall.

Although I've lost my sympathy to most new Covid victims because they had the tools to protect themselves and chose not to, I do not wish death on anyone, DeSantis included.

[RiverDog]

One of the advantages of a universal health care system is a central registry where everyone is given a health number or equivalent. It then becomes easier to keep track of who has received what treatments and offer official validations. In Canada each province is responsible for the delivery of health services so it’s slightly different across the country, but the single payer and ability to register are basically the same. One problem with a National vaccine passport is developing a central registry on a national scale and possible privacy issues that might arise. Whereas countries in Europe for the most part have a single health payer and registry already in place so it’s easier to make health related decisions for them.

That's not an excuse, at least as it pertains to the Covid vaccinations:

Homeland Security Secretary Alejandro Mayorkas said Friday that the Biden administration is taking “a close look” at requiring Americans to have a COVID-19 vaccine passport for international travel.

“You know, one of our principles that has guided us throughout this pandemic is the value of diversity, equity and inclusion and making sure that any passport that we provide for vaccinations is accessible to all and that no one is disenfranchised,” he said. “And so we’re taking a very close look.”

His comments sparked confusion, prompting a DHS spokesman to clarify hours later that “there will be no federal vaccinations database and no federal mandate requiring everyone to obtain a single vaccination credential.”

https://nypost.com/2021/05/28/biden-adm ... passports/

The fact is that the Biden Administration could have set up a data base had they wanted to, but chose not to, obviously sensitive to the politics surrounding vaccine passports. It's one of my biggest beefs about Joe Biden, that he doesn't have any balls. If he were truly committed to ending the pandemic, he wouldn't give a rip about the politics of things like vaccine passports.

Also, courts in the US have long ago said that vaccinations are not covered under our HIPPA laws that regulate patient privacy.

[NorthHawk]

I’m just saying it’s much easier and quicker with a single payer system.
I think it would be wise to work with other countries for basic standards so any type of passport
would be acceptable around the world, or a large part of it. It would be a huge boost to
business and tourism to get back to normal ways of travel and trade.

I don’t know if something is being worked on at the lower levels to set acceptable standards, but
I think it’s something that should be going on. It’s a logical step towards normalcy.

[RiverDog]

I’m just saying it’s much easier and quicker with a single payer system.

For other vaccines, maybe. But the Covid vaccines are distributed to the states by the federal government. They are the sole authority. They know exactly how many vaccines were sent and exactly how many were administered, so all they have to do is attach a name/birthdate to them.

I don't see what would be different under a single payer system. There's already a singular authority, the CDC, collecting information. Besides, Covid vaccines are free so private insurance/Medicare/Medicaid has nothing to do with them anyway.

I think it would be wise to work with other countries for basic standards so any type of passport would be acceptable around the world, or a large part of it. It would be a huge boost to business and tourism to get back to normal ways of travel and trade.

It would be nice, but it will never happen, especially here in the US. Heck, our CDC wouldn't even use the WHO's test kits at the very beginning of the pandemic simply because they wanted their own.

I don’t know if something is being worked on at the lower levels to set acceptable standards, but I think it’s something that should be going on. It’s a logical step towards normalcy.

I agree that it should be done, but in the absence of the federal government's lead on this, I can't see any kind of credible standard being universally accepted.