Mask Mandates

[RiverDog]

The states that have laws preventing vaccine passports just took a hit. A US judge has issued a preliminarily ruling that allows Norwegian Cruise Lines to require that all passengers and crew present proof of vaccination before boarding their cruise ships in Miami, FL:

A U.S. judge has allowed Norwegian Cruise Line Holdings Ltd. to demand that passengers show written proof of coronavirus vaccination before they board a ship, dealing a major blow to Florida Governor Ron DeSantis's effort to ban "vaccine passports."

He (DeSantis) has argued that Florida law prevents discrimination and protects privacy by preventing businesses, schools or governments from demanding proof of immunity in return for service.

https://www.msn.com/en-xl/news/other/u- ... d=msedgntp

Courts have consistently ruled that vaccinations are not covered under privacy laws, so Governors like DeSantis are not on solid legal footing when they issue these laws that prevent companies, school districts, etc from requiring proof of vaccination by arguing that it is an invasion of privacy.

Businesses are already allowed to discriminate between certain customers when they are allowed to require certain things, like masks, dress codes, etc as a requirement so long as their discrimination is not based on a protected status (race, gender, religion, etc.).

This is a slam dunk decision, but it's nice that it's out in the open now.

[Aseahawkfan]

Yes. It's important that this be fought legally to make sure the common law remains quite clear that requiring vaccination is the same as any other choice by private business or the government. Too many people forget the life part of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. There is a reason life is before liberty even though liberty should be first alphabetically. Even back when George Washington was dealing with an outbreak of a dangerous viral infection, he used force to quarantine people. If Washington were alive today, he would be far meaner when enforcing mandates like this than modern presidents. He and men like Jefferson would not have tolerated this anti-scientific trash based on liberty. Both were men very much into science and human advancement. They would not have seen intelligent medical measures taken to slow a virus as an infringement on liberty dangerous to the ideas of the American Constitution. That is right wing crazy BS.

[RiverDog]

Yes. It's important that this be fought legally to make sure the common law remains quite clear that requiring vaccination is the same as any other choice by private business or the government. Too many people forget the life part of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. There is a reason life is before liberty even though liberty should be first alphabetically. Even back when George Washington was dealing with an outbreak of a dangerous viral infection, he used force to quarantine people. If Washington were alive today, he would be far meaner when enforcing mandates like this than modern presidents. He and men like Jefferson would not have tolerated this anti-scientific trash based on liberty. Both were men very much into science and human advancement. They would not have seen intelligent medical measures taken to slow a virus as an infringement on liberty dangerous to the ideas of the American Constitution. That is right wing crazy BS.

Yep. Get some of these moonbats like DeSantis out in court and take away their fig leaves. It's time that these morons learn that individual freedom has its limits. My 6th grade teacher made a statement once that has always stuck with me: "Your freedom ends where my nose begins." We do not have the freedom, by our actions or inactions, to infect others.

Rep. Rep. Marjorie Taylor Greene has been making patently false claims about the pandemic for months. Twitter recently suspended her account for it. Her latest is that she cheered Alabama's low vaccination rate, claiming that HIPPA laws protect us from disclosing our vaccination status. Nothing could be further from the truth. There is no law, HIPPA or otherwise, that prevents an employer or any other entity, from asking us to show them our vaccination status. I'm not sure how public officials can get away with making such blatantly false statements that are designed to spread misinformation. If it involved a person, they could get sued for slander. They need to hold some of these public officials accountable for their false statements when it involves public safety.

The military announced that they were going to require that all active duty personnel get vaccinated. In this state, Gov. Inslee mandated that all state employees get the shot, and he didn't even provide a recourse, like testing or other protocols exclusive to unvaccinated individuals, an act that caused many of my Facebook friends to explode in rage. About 1/3 of hospitals around the nation are requiring their employees to be vaccinated. Many colleges and universities are requiring it for their students and staff.

I do think that, through mandates and that the Delta variant scaring a lot of folks, that we are reaching a turning point in the vaccination rollout.

[Hawktawk]

I cannot wrap my head around a guy like deathsantis doubling down with record cases and pediatric wards slammed this time . It’s evil. Towards the end of Cheetos term I said if you still support him you have a death wish . Same goes for deathsantis

[RiverDog]

I cannot wrap my head around a guy like deathsantis doubling down with record cases and pediatric wards slammed this time . It’s evil. Towards the end of Cheetos term I said if you still support him you have a death wish . Same goes for deathsantis

Yeah, and Greg Abbott in Texas isn't much better. But on the flip side, the Alabama Governor, a R, sure told it like it is: "Folks are supposed to have common sense!" It's time to start blaming the unvaccinated folks. She's exactly right. This surge is 100% on the unvaccinated no matter what their political persuasion is. Arkansas's R Governor is trying his best, too, so it seems like a mixed lot.

Locally, our hospitals are having to send patients as far as 600 miles away to find an open bed. The small town hospital in Prosser had to call 20 other hospitals to find a bed for a patient with needs beyond what they can provide. We have 4 days of triple digit weather in the forecast and they're going to have to start setting up tents again. No wonder there's so many health care providers that are quitting. This is entirely preventable.

[Aseahawkfan]

Yeah, and Greg Abbott in Texas isn't much better. But on the flip side, the Alabama Governor, a R, sure told it like it is: "Folks are supposed to have common sense!" It's time to start blaming the unvaccinated folks. She's exactly right. This surge is 100% on the unvaccinated no matter what their political persuasion is. Arkansas's R Governor is trying his best, too, so it seems like a mixed lot.

Locally, our hospitals are having to send patients as far as 600 miles away to find an open bed. The small town hospital in Prosser had to call 20 other hospitals to find a bed for a patient with needs beyond what they can provide. We have 4 days of triple digit weather in the forecast and they're going to have to start setting up tents again. No wonder there's so many health care providers that are quitting. This is entirely preventable.

I really wish they would refuse service to people who have are refusing vaccination for stupid reasons. They demand their freedom. I demand they accept the consequences of their choices.

I'd support so much more such as the legalization of drugs if people would truly accept responsibility for their terrible choices. The way the government and organizations run, they seem to let these people make dumb choices then demand we pay for it. I don't understand why it is so hard to look coldly upon idiots and tell them, "You made a dumb choice. Now you are paying the price for it. Go home or wherever you need to and remember we have given you your liberty. But with liberty comes consequences. You must pay them for your stupidity."

I would do this. I have in fact done this. I don't help friends and family who make idiot decisions continuously, even if they will die or live on the streets. I absolutely expect that a person receiving help from me do as I tell them and act with sense or I won't help. I don't throw money and time into black holes like I've seen the government and some people do with hopelessly foolish people.

[RiverDog]

I really wish they would refuse service to people who have are refusing vaccination for stupid reasons. They demand their freedom. I demand they accept the consequences of their choices.

Me, too. Why should I put myself and/or my wife at risk because someone that thinks of their vaccine refusal as some sort of expression of their freedom and is unwilling to take even a modest risk in the name of protecting their fellow human beings? It's no different, and in many regards worse, than dining next to a smoker. If restaurants keep smokers out of their venues, why shouldn't they keep unvaccinated patrons from entering?

I'd support so much more such as the legalization of drugs if people would truly accept responsibility for their terrible choices. The way the government and organizations run, they seem to let these people make dumb choices then demand we pay for it. I don't understand why it is so hard to look coldly upon idiots and tell them, "You made a dumb choice. Now you are paying the price for it. Go home or wherever you need to and remember we have given you your liberty. But with liberty comes consequences. You must pay them for your stupidity."

I would do this. I have in fact done this. I don't help friends and family who make idiot decisions continuously, even if they will die or live on the streets. I absolutely expect that a person receiving help from me do as I tell them and act with sense or I won't help. I don't throw money and time into black holes like I've seen the government and some people do with hopelessly foolish people.

They need to start sticking these unvaccinated Coronavirus patients outside in tents and vacant warehouses so they can open up hospital beds for those that have other medical needs. I don't want to see anyone suffer or die, but if they consciously refuse a vaccine after 180 million in this country have already taken the shot and proven that side effects are extremely rare, I see a moral dilemma in making someone else have to risk their life because these anti vaxxers are clogging up the hospitals. Assign them a low priority, they only get medical care after the needs of the other patients have been met.

[NorthHawk]

The problem in many cases is the hospital staff. There either isn't enough of them or the people they have are getting burned out after about a year and a half
of dealing with this virus. It must be incredibly frustrating trying to help people who are very sick denying they have the virus or asking too late to get the vaccine.
It's now striking children with a lot more than previous having to be sent to hospital with some dying, and others possibly impacted for life with lung problems.
It's really going to hit home with some of these deniers when their kids have to go to hospital with Covid. And since the vaccine isn't yet approved for younger
children, their best defense is for us adults to get vaccinated in high enough volumes to limit the spread within society.

[RiverDog]

The problem in many cases is the hospital staff. There either isn't enough of them or the people they have are getting burned out after about a year and a half of dealing with this virus. It must be incredibly frustrating trying to help people who are very sick denying they have the virus or asking too late to get the vaccine. It's now striking children with a lot more than previous having to be sent to hospital with some dying, and others possibly impacted for life with lung problems. It's really going to hit home with some of these deniers when their kids have to go to hospital with Covid. And since the vaccine isn't yet approved for younger children, their best defense is for us adults to get vaccinated in high enough volumes to limit the spread within society.

Truth.

I'm having an active debate with some of my old high school classmates on Facebook. Although most are like me and are pro vaccine, but there's a lot of anti vaxxers and they're promoting a walk out in protest of the Governor's decision to mandate the vaccine. Does their protest mean that much to them that they'd risk losing their jobs and putting their financial security in jeopardy? Aren't there better hills to die on than a vaccination that over 60% of the adult population has already taken?

Oh, and I know that you guys trust me, but here's the article I was referring to in my previous post:

One Tri-Cities area patient recently needed to be transferred to a hospital 600 miles away as the latest COVID-19 surge is filling hospitals and overwhelming emergency rooms. In another case, Prosser Memorial Hospital had to call 20 hospitals to find one with an intensive care unit bed for a patient who needed more care than that hospital offers.

A week ago all three Tri-Cities hospitals were so busy that for a time they all asked that any emergency patients be taken to another hospital.

https://www.tri-cityherald.com/news/cor ... rUknbfBIgo

It's really getting bad here, and it's all because we have the lowest vaccination rate in the region. Read the article, it really paints a scary picture. Plus we're heading into another heat wave, with the next 4 days projected to hit triple digits.

[RiverDog]

If there was any doubt that the courts would not back up governments and private businesses over their vaccination mandates, they were disposed of today:

U.S. Supreme Court Justice Amy Coney Barrett on Thursday denied a bid by students at Indiana University to block the school's requirement that they be vaccinated against COVID-19.

https://www.msn.com/en-xl/news/other/st ... d=msedgntp

Justice Barrett, a Trump appointee, is one of the most conservative members of SCOTUS, and if she turns down the request without even referring it to the full court, you can bet your last dollar that every other court will, too.

[NorthHawk]

Is that because she believes in vaccinations or because she believes in business being able to
dictate terms of service? I guess it really doesn’t matter in this case and other cases involving
private companies. I wonder if she would rule the same for challenges to the Government sector.

[Aseahawkfan]

Case Law is historically on the side of vaccine mandates save in a very few circumstances.

You cannot force people to take a vaccine at gunpoint or anything of the kind like some of these loons are pushing. But businesses and the government can mandate vaccination when the public safety is at risk. Case law supports this back to the beginning of vaccination.

For all the talk of conservative versus liberal, judges follow the case law.

[RiverDog]

Is that because she believes in vaccinations or because she believes in business being able to dictate terms of service? I guess it really doesn’t matter in this case and other cases involving private companies. I wonder if she would rule the same for challenges to the Government sector.

A couple things: Indiana University is a state or public school, so it is within the government sector. People that work there are employees of the State of Indiana. The kids that sued had alternatives. They could have abided by certain restrictions, including testing, remote learning, social distancing, etc, and they didn't have to attend Indiana University. It was not a forced mandate. Secondly, as ASF stated, there is a precedent. Way back in 1908, the Supreme Court, in Jensen vs. Massachusetts, ruled that governments had the right to mandate vaccines in the event of an emergency. In the 1908 case, the disease was small pox (totally eradicated by vaccines, btw). Many courts have cited this precedent in their rulings, of which nearly all have supported vaccination requirements. Obviously Comey Barrett was not comfortable bringing a weak case forward to the full court even if she truly agrees with re-visiting that case.

On a side topic, I am very pleased with the rulings we've been getting from SCOTUS. Even when they've broke to the conservative side, their rationalizations have been very logical and understandable. Even Trump's appointees have ruled against him on several occasions, including getting involved in the 2020 election.

Law schools preach consistency and precedents. All of those judges, liberal and conservative, have had it drilled into them through years of training that a society has to have a set of rules that seldom changes and follow a pattern of previous decisions so that laws are understood and accepted by the public. It is extremely rare for any court to overturn a decades old precedent unless they have an awful damn good reason. Courts need to be predictable, otherwise challenges will be more frequent and chaos and uncertainty will undermine our rule of law. That's why you don't see very many mavericks sitting on any bench.

[Hawktawk]

Trumps Scotus gave him 2 9-0 rasberries during his big lie and also allowed the feds to see his taxes too.Now they are making Deathsantis and Abbott look pretty bad.

Love it. Love hearing him whine about Kavanaugh"where would he be without me" He'd be where he belongs Trump, in a lower court due to the skeletons in his closet but its beautiful the loyalty he's showing you. you're so deserving.

[RiverDog]

Love hearing him whine about Kavanaugh"where would he be without me" He'd be where he belongs Trump, in a lower court due to the skeletons in his closet but its beautiful the loyalty he's showing you. you're so deserving.

The "skeletons" came out of the closet only after Kavanaugh was nominated to SCOTUS. Up until then, in all of his confirmations on various benches, all we heard from his accusers was crickets.

[Aseahawkfan]

The "skeletons" came out of the closet only after Kavanaugh was nominated to SCOTUS. Up until then, in all of his confirmations on various benches, all we heard from his accusers was crickets.

Those accusations were pure BS.

Apparently all the women who spoke up on behalf of Kavanaugh and all the 30 plus years since his college and high school days, he had no accusations of I know of. But they went in the way back machine to his High School and College days, found some accusers and hopped on the metoo# movement to try to take him down because he was nominated by Trump.

And all the women that spoke up on behalf of Kavanaugh's character for the last 30 years of his life completely ignored.

It was a complete sham.

[RiverDog]

The "skeletons" came out of the closet only after Kavanaugh was nominated to SCOTUS. Up until then, in all of his confirmations on various benches, all we heard from his accusers was crickets.

Those accusations were pure BS.

Apparently all the women who spoke up on behalf of Kavanaugh and all the 30 plus years since his college and high school days, he had no accusations of I know of. But they went in the way back machine to his High School and College days, found some accusers and hopped on the metoo# movement to try to take him down because he was nominated by Trump.

And all the women that spoke up on behalf of Kavanaugh's character for the last 30 years of his life completely ignored.

It was a complete sham.

Yup. It was a kangaroo court. Accusations from events that supposedly occurred 37 years ago?

I like the current setup of the Supreme Court, the fact that they're appointed for life and that they are drawn from a pool where they've had decades of service on federal benches. If any of the pillars of our democracy works, it's the Supreme Court.

But the nomination process needs to be changed. The party in power should not be able to sit on a nominee for an indefinite period of time like McConnell did back in 2016. Put a time limit on it, act or the nominee takes their seat w/o confirmation. Nor should they allow just any witness to come throw chit on the wall in the hopes that some of it might stick. All witnesses should be thoroughly vetted and their stories checked out by the FBI, before they are allowed to testify. And they should have a "no fly zone", from September through the following January of an election year, during which no nominations can be made.

The only problem with SCOTUS is in the Legislative and Executive branches. The institution itself works great.

[Hawktawk]

The "skeletons" came out of the closet only after Kavanaugh was nominated to SCOTUS. Up until then, in all of his confirmations on various benches, all we heard from his accusers was crickets.

Yes and seeing what was done to the women who did come forward its not surprising either. The fact is Mitch McConnell warned trump against the pick, the skeletons were there. The guy wasn't even on trumps initial short list until his writings concerning presidential immunity were discovered. Kavanaugh would have been dumped after Blasi Fords testimony which trump initially called credible had Trump not viewed the polls showing growing support among the trumpanzee base.

The FBI had established a tip line for their investigation of the allegations against Kavanaugh. Only a couple weeks ago it was revealed that there had been over FOUR THOUSAND TIPS in just a few days. All were referred to the general counsel for the WH, in other words give the evidence to the people who want case closed. Multiple people in the middle of the story including Kavanaugh, Blasi Ford,, Ramirez were not even interviewed. It was a joke. The most recent revelation about the tip line that was ignored prompted a call from the Blasi Ford legal team as well as many democrat leaders to call for another investigation , impeachment whatever. Of course it will never happen. An unfit amoral man sits in judgement of us all for decades to come. As for crickets Blasi Ford had spoken to a counselor several years before Kavanaugh was nominated, and agonized over whether to make her story public. She took a polygraph issued by a retired FBI agent and passed.

I believe her, I believe ramirez. Not to re litigate the entire case but I've got at least half a dozen known facts to support my belief.

It doesn't matter to a lot of people but it matters to me and his victims.Ill go to my grave knowing in my heart there's a man on the SCOTUS who sexually assaulted women in a state of drunkenness on multiple occasions in his younger years at minimum including well into his mid 20s . With 4K plus tips hidden we will never hear about who really knows what the man may have done...Part of the legacy of the cheeto, the molester in chief himself

[RiverDog]

The fact is Mitch McConnell warned trump against the pick, the skeletons were there.

You're right that McConnell did warn Trump about a possible Kavanaugh nomination but it had nothing to do with the sexual misconduct allegations:

McConnell believes that the lengthy trial record of Judge Brett Kavanaugh, appointed in 2006 to the U.S. Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit, and his previous stints in President George W. Bush’s administration may prove to be obstacles during the confirmation process, The New York Times reported Saturday.

The pages of legal rulings and other documents authored by Kavanaugh “is said to run into the millions, which Mr. McConnell fears could hand Senate Democrats an opportunity to delay the confirmation vote until after the new session of the court begins in October, with the midterm elections looming the next month,” the newspaper said. McConnell also “is uneasy about relitigating Bush-era controversies, the officials briefed on his discussions with Mr. Trump said,” the Times reported

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/mcconnel ... 27ccf335a0

McConnell was worried about Kavanaugh's previous service in the Bush Administration and their detention policies in post 9/11 as well as his work for Kenneth Starr, the special prosecutor in the Clinton investigation into his affair/lying under oath about the Lewinsky affair. There was never a word said about any allegations of sexual misconduct prior to July of 2018 when Kavanaugh's name began appearing on Trump's short list of possible SCOTUS nominees.

Why in the hell that a respected deliberative body like the Senate Judiciary Committee would permit testimony of an event from 37 years in the past, where no criminal activity was suggested, and the accused participants were 15 and 17 years old is beyond comprehension.

[Hawktawk]

See you just didn't follow the story. Blasi Ford was the first but there were several others along with 4K!!!!!!!!! tips that were hidden away. As I say I've got a half dozen KNOWN FACTS that shape my belief and hatred of Trump isn't an issue here.And molestations of a 14 year old is highly criminal behavior. As is whipping out your junk and flashing it in a girls face as was reported by ms Ramires.

Kangaroo court all you want. Its a GD lifetime appointment, it was not manufactured out of whole cloth . Its ridiculous to say women would put themselves through it only to see another person with the EXACT!!!! judicial philosophy be nominated if they attempt to tell the world about their assault at the hands of a man who would be in judgement of us all.

How long ago is utterly irrelevant. If its a shift manager at MCD its not relevant. Its a SCOTUS. Its relevant, everything is.Where's his lawsuit for slander, character assassination? Id file one by god. Why did he refuse a polygraph? Couldn't hook me up fast enough.


Its true and it mattered. Amazing to me any person would accept it. I've got a daughter who was molested probably 25 years ago at the hands of her mothers boyfriend. A beautiful bright 13 year old girl. Now she's addicted to opiates, living on the streets of portland, completely spun out. We have no relationship anymore even though I have tried and tried to help her.. My youngest sister was molested into her early teens, over 40 years ago and has struggled her whole adult life with drugs, prostitution, self mutilation. Its big deal. there's no statute of limitations on sexual assault for the victim and shouldn't be for the perp either, especially if he's been nominated to the high court. Its a disgrace in a nation in steep decline. He acted guilty, he was guilty. a complete weasel.

[RiverDog]

See you just didn't follow the story. Blasi Ford was the first but there were several others along with 4K!!!!!!!!! tips that were hidden away. As I say I've got a half dozen KNOWN FACTS that shape my belief and hatred of Trump isn't an issue here.And molestations of a 14 year old is highly criminal behavior. As is whipping out your junk and flashing it in a girls face as was reported by ms Ramires.

That was all AFTER July of 2018. They only came out of the woodwork after Kavanaugh was nominated.

Look, there's no sense us going down this rabbit hole again. We've kicked this dead horse long enough and neither of us are going to change our opinions.

[Hawktawk]

Guilty as charged. I know he's guilty. Not an opinion. I dont "think" he guilty. Pretty excellent judge of character and who is lying, telling the truth here. I have at least 6 proven facts to back me up. Cockroaches freeze when the light shines on them.

Guilty people act guilty, claim a witch hunt, kangaroo court. They huddle with WH lawyers in the WH basement for several days before going on faux for a powder puff interview in which they tell provable lies in their first public remarks DAYS AFTER THE ACCUSATIONS. As the guy who nominated him avoids him like a plague, calls his accuser "credible" until the polls come out.

Man I couldn't have gotten in front of a microphone fast enough if I were accused of that. Only attorney Id need is a really good libel one to sue these people into oblivion, not WH counsel for days before saying anything after straightening out my story . Like Trump's accusers guilty people don't sue. They can't make it through discovery.

Like you say, horse dead. He's on scotus till he croaks and Blasi Ford, Ramires and whoever else is buried in the 4 K!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! tips will just have to live with it.

[RiverDog]

Back to topic, sort of.

They just announced that people with compromised autoimmune systems, ie cancer patients, AIDS patients, etc, can get a 3rd shot of either Moderna or Pfizer so my wife, who has both MS and rheumatoid arthritis, went down to the local drug store and got a 3rd jab of Moderna. We both got shots on 1/22 and 2/27 so especially since our area has one of the worst case and hospitalization rates on the west coast, we didn't hesitate to get her that 3rd poke. If they open it up to 65+, I'll be down there in a heart beat.

Oddly enough, they told my wife that if she had the one shot J&J that they wouldn't give her a 2nd shot, that the only extra shots they've approved to date are Pfizer and Moderna.

I have a friend who's been on a work assignment in Argentina since just before the pandemic broke out come up and visit me earlier this week. He says that people in Argentina are lining up to book flights to the US just to get a shot of one of our vaccines. They have the Russian vaccine, Sputnik 5, and most don't trust it. It's odd that so many people in foreign countries trust the US over other nations but people in this nation wouldn't believe the government if they told them that the sun rises in the east.

[Aseahawkfan]

Deaths appear to have gone back up to about 700 a day. Damn. We might be heading for problems again.

[RiverDog]

The FDA just gave full approval to the Pfizer vaccine:

https://www.msn.com/en-xl/news/other/us ... d=msedgntp

This is a big step in getting more of the population vaccinated. No longer can people claim that at least this vaccine in particular is "experimental". Indeed, when one considers how many shots have been given, over 200 million in the US alone, there has never been a vaccine with as much supporting evidence of its safety and efficacy as this one.

Moderna is about a month behind Pfizer, but since it utilizes the same technology as Pfizer, it's a foregone conclusion that it, too, will get full approval. Besides, having just one of the vaccines with full approval will give companies and organizations more authority to mandate that employees and others get the poke. There's plenty of Pfizer vaccine available if a person is genuinely concerned with full FDA approval.

Johnson & Johnson has yet to apply for full approval but expects to do so by the end of the year.

In other news, mask mandates for all indoor public spaces in WA go into effect today, so I guess I'll have to toss a couple masks into my truck. It will be interesting to see if they have any problems enforcing the renewed mandate.

[NorthHawk]

It doesn't matter where you go in the world you will find some fools that want to cause problems with mask mandates.

[RiverDog]

It doesn't matter where you go in the world you will find some fools that want to cause problems with mask mandates.

Arguing that mask mandates violates our civil liberties is about the silliest such argument that I've ever heard. If you are sensitive about your personal rights and freedoms, as I feel that I am, then there are much better hills to die on, such as abortion, gun control, seat belt laws, voting rights, and so forth, than getting your briefs/panties in a wad over a mask.

I happened to notice where ASF mentioned a week ago that Covid deaths were about 700. As of last Friday, the 7-day average has climbed to 926. That's still less than a third of what it was at its peak in January, but still damn high and bound to go higher as confirmed cases continue to rise.

There are some areas where they need to start clearing hospitals and ICU units of unvaccinated Covid patients and make room for other, non Covid patients. I find it outrageous that a person that chose not to get vaccinated and winds up in the hospital is occupying a bed close to home while a person with a non voluntary medical emergency like a heart attack or auto accident has to go 500 miles to find a hospital with an open bed.

The other thing that needs to happen is that insurance companies needs to raise premiums on all health insurance customers then give back that increase to those that can prove they've been vaccinated. I see no difference between a non smoking discount and a Covid vaccination discount.

[Aseahawkfan]

Hmm. It seems Israel is 80% vaccinated and they are getting hammered by the Delta Variant. Sounds like it is going to suck to get old with this COVID19 and all its variants continuing to spread around.

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2021/08/grim-warning-israel-vaccination-blunts-does-not-defeat-delta

[RiverDog]

Hmm. It seems Israel is 80% vaccinated and they are getting hammered by the Delta Variant. Sounds like it is going to suck to get old with this COVID19 and all its variants continuing to spread around.

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2021/08/grim-warning-israel-vaccination-blunts-does-not-defeat-delta

Yeah, but those that are fully vaccinated aren't ending up in the hospital and dying:

The sheer number of vaccinated Israelis means some breakthrough infections were inevitable, and the unvaccinated are still far more likely to end up in the hospital or die.

That's one of the things that escapes these anti vaxxers that use as an argument against getting a shot that you can still get Covid even if you're fully vaccinated.

Vaccinations have been ticking up. They're currently sitting just below 900,000 per day and with the FDA's full approval of the Pfizer vaccine and associated mandates, those numbers should improve substantially.

Biden needs to mandate that all health care workers get the shot. He's mandated it for all nursing homes, why not extend that to all health care situations, including hospitals, clinics, et al?

[Aseahawkfan]

Yeah, but those that are fully vaccinated aren't ending up in the hospital and dying:

The sheer number of vaccinated Israelis means some breakthrough infections were inevitable, and the unvaccinated are still far more likely to end up in the hospital or die.

That's one of the things that escapes these anti vaxxers that use as an argument against getting a shot that you can still get Covid even if you're fully vaccinated.

Vaccinations have been ticking up. They're currently sitting just below 900,000 per day and with the FDA's full approval of the Pfizer vaccine and associated mandates, those numbers should improve substantially.

Biden needs to mandate that all health care workers get the shot. He's mandated it for all nursing homes, why not extend that to all health care situations, including hospitals, clinics, et al?

You will have to watch this closely because that is not the numerical information we are getting out of Israel.

What is clear is that “breakthrough” cases are not the rare events the term implies. As of 15 August, 514 Israelis were hospitalized with severe or critical COVID-19, a 31% increase from just 4 days earlier. Of the 514, 59% were fully vaccinated. Of the vaccinated, 87% were 60 or older. “There are so many breakthrough infections that they dominate and most of the hospitalized patients are actually vaccinated,” says Uri Shalit, a bioinformatician at the Israel Institute of Technology (Technion) who has consulted on COVID-19 for the government. “One of the big stories from Israel [is]: ‘Vaccines work, but not well enough.’”

This may be a more honest assessment of what might occur here. Right now we have people stating that the vaccines are working well against the Delta Variant, but the numbers are showing something else in Israel that we need to be aware of.

We will see how it plays out in the death rate and the hospitalization numbers long-term. It sounds very much like we're going to have to accept that COVID19 is here to stay, the vaccines help but aren't a guarantee, and these variants are going to have to be accounted for.

[RiverDog]

Yeah, but those that are fully vaccinated aren't ending up in the hospital and dying:

The sheer number of vaccinated Israelis means some breakthrough infections were inevitable, and the unvaccinated are still far more likely to end up in the hospital or die.

That's one of the things that escapes these anti vaxxers that use as an argument against getting a shot that you can still get Covid even if you're fully vaccinated.

Vaccinations have been ticking up. They're currently sitting just below 900,000 per day and with the FDA's full approval of the Pfizer vaccine and associated mandates, those numbers should improve substantially.

Biden needs to mandate that all health care workers get the shot. He's mandated it for all nursing homes, why not extend that to all health care situations, including hospitals, clinics, et al?

You will have to watch this closely because that is not the numerical information we are getting out of Israel.

I wish I had a link with a quote, but a few weeks ago, I saw an FDA official mention that they have some issues with some of the data that Israel is providing, that they aren't based on a large enough or random enough sampling. I think it was mentioned as a result of questioning regarding the FDA's review of Israel's data when they were assessing the need for booster shots.

What is clear is that “breakthrough” cases are not the rare events the term implies. As of 15 August, 514 Israelis were hospitalized with severe or critical COVID-19, a 31% increase from just 4 days earlier. Of the 514, 59% were fully vaccinated. Of the vaccinated, 87% were 60 or older. “There are so many breakthrough infections that they dominate and most of the hospitalized patients are actually vaccinated,” says Uri Shalit, a bioinformatician at the Israel Institute of Technology (Technion) who has consulted on COVID-19 for the government. “One of the big stories from Israel [is]: ‘Vaccines work, but not well enough.’”

This may be a more honest assessment of what might occur here. Right now we have people stating that the vaccines are working well against the Delta Variant, but the numbers are showing something else in Israel that we need to be aware of.

We will see how it plays out in the death rate and the hospitalization numbers long-term. It sounds very much like we're going to have to accept that COVID19 is here to stay, the vaccines help but aren't a guarantee, and these variants are going to have to be accounted for.

I agree, Covid is likely to be around for quite awhile.

[Hawktawk]

My wife does MRI for confluence in Moses lake /Wenatchee . They were informed Friday that all non life threatening elective surgeries are postponed until further notice . They report the icu is at 100
% capacity with 34 Covid patients . 14 are in critical condition and 4 on ventilators . All but 2 are unvaccinated . It’s a 4th wave of their unvaccinated idiot arse and they are keeping these mutations going to punch through the vaccine of those who did the right thing . Really starting to loath these subcult of the trump cult .

As for these breakthrough cases it’s always been a fact they weren’t 100% effective , more like 75/80% give or take. Of course not everyone was exposed so actual cases were low. delta reportedly has at least 300 times the viral load which is what generally determines level of infection , also the level of infection carried on to others by positive persons whether asymptomatic or vaccinated . As distancing was relaxed, masks went bye bye , half the folks declined the shot and along came delta .


I’ve said it for months . We may yet be too stupid as a country to ever beat this , as a planet . Too selfish . Too in love with the almighty $. People forget it was year 2 of the Spanish flu that killed 50 million and we are a doomsday mutation from it right now .

[Aseahawkfan]

My wife does MRI for confluence in Moses lake /Wenatchee . They were informed Friday that all non life threatening elective surgeries are postponed until further notice . They report the icu is at 100
% capacity with 34 Covid patients . 14 are in critical condition and 4 on ventilators . All but 2 are unvaccinated . It’s a 4th wave of their unvaccinated idiot arse and they are keeping these mutations going to punch through the vaccine of those who did the right thing . Really starting to loath these subcult of the trump cult .

As for these breakthrough cases it’s always been a fact they weren’t 100% effective , more like 75/80% give or take. Of course not everyone was exposed so actual cases were low. delta reportedly has at least 300 times the viral load which is what generally determines level of infection , also the level of infection carried on to others by positive persons whether asymptomatic or vaccinated . As distancing was relaxed, masks went bye bye , half the folks declined the shot and along came delta .


I’ve said it for months . We may yet be too stupid as a country to ever beat this , as a planet . Too selfish . Too in love with the almighty $. People forget it was year 2 of the Spanish flu that killed 50 million and we are a doomsday mutation from it right now .

Did you see they booed Trump for telling them to take the vaccine? That was amusing. Not even his power can stop the anti-vaccine crowd.

[Aseahawkfan]

I wish I had a link with a quote, but a few weeks ago, I saw an FDA official mention that they have some issues with some of the data that Israel is providing, that they aren't based on a large enough or random enough sampling. I think it was mentioned as a result of questioning regarding the FDA's review of Israel's data when they were assessing the need for booster shots.

I would trust Israel over American information. Israel has some of the best doctors and medical companies in the world. They are easily on par with American medicine.

And I do not want information hidden for political purposes. If the vaccines are getting punched through by Delta, they had better tell us. No screwing around with mixed messaging or what not. We need clear information concerning how well the vaccines are holding up to the Delta Variant with no playing around.

[RiverDog]

I would trust Israel over American information. Israel has some of the best doctors and medical companies in the world. They are easily on par with American medicine.

The issue wasn't whose doctors to trust. It was whose mathematicians to trust.

And I do not want information hidden for political purposes. If the vaccines are getting punched through by Delta, they had better tell us. No screwing around with mixed messaging or what not. We need clear information concerning how well the vaccines are holding up to the Delta Variant with no playing around.

Do you suspect that information is being hidden or glossed over?

That's why the FDA has an independent panel review the data and make a recommendation, so as to insure against "cooking the books" for political purposes. If there's any government agency that I trust, it's the FDA. If the POTUS can't force their hand, like Trump tried to do on multiple occasions by trying to get the vaccines approved before the election, then I think they're pretty resilient to political pressure, or at least as resilient as a government agency can be.

There's scores of other agencies around the world, public as well as private, that are looking at the performance of same vaccines against the same virus. It would be pretty damn hard to significantly alter information on these particular vaccines.

[Aseahawkfan]

The issue wasn't whose doctors to trust. It was whose mathematicians to trust.

Israeli mathematicians are as good as ours too.

Do you suspect that information is being hidden or glossed over?

That's why the FDA has an independent panel review the data and make a recommendation, so as to insure against "cooking the books" for political purposes. If there's any government agency that I trust, it's the FDA. If the POTUS can't force their hand, like Trump tried to do on multiple occasions by trying to get the vaccines approved before the election, then I think they're pretty resilient to political pressure, or at least as resilient as a government agency can be.

There's scores of other agencies around the world, public as well as private, that are looking at the performance of same vaccines against the same virus. It would be pretty damn hard to significantly alter information on these particular vaccines.

No, but the political messaging does not seem in line with the actions taken and information coming out.

We are now doing booster shots. Hospitals are filling. Deaths are rising. The messaging seems to be mainly the unvaccinated, but why booster shots if that is the case? What is the ratio here of vaccinated versus unvaccinated in the hospital and dying in America? Are they going off the Israeli information? Or do we have information indicating the Delta Variant is punching through, so we need boosters?

The Pfizer vaccine last I read is only 39% effective against the Delta Variant, but supposedly drastically reduces hospitalizations and deaths.

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2021/08/do-delta-breakthroughs-really-mean-vaccine-protection-waning-and-are-boosters-answer

Right now it seems we're not sure exactly how well things are holding up with the Delta Variant now the dominant strain. I hope they get a good idea on this quicker than not. I would prefer my older relatives not go wandering about if their immunity is not holding up well against the Delta Variant.

[RiverDog]

No, but the political messaging does not seem in line with the actions taken and information coming out.

You'll have to be a little more specific. What political messaging? The only messaging I'm hearing is to get vaccinated and to wear masks.

We are now doing booster shots. Hospitals are filling. Deaths are rising. The messaging seems to be mainly the unvaccinated, but why booster shots if that is the case? What is the ratio here of vaccinated versus unvaccinated in the hospital and dying in America? Are they going off the Israeli information? Or do we have information indicating the Delta Variant is punching through, so we need boosters?

From the very beginning, they've said that we may need booster shots. There's still not a lot of field evidence available as the vaccines were introduced just 9 months ago, but they know that boosters do significantly increase antibodies, and with the unexpected surge of the Delta variant, there's more virus out there, and with it, more risk of infection whether you're vaccinated or not. I was somewhat surprised that the FDA waited as long as they did to recommend boosters, but it seems that our agency is a little more methodical than those in other countries.

The Pfizer vaccine last I read is only 39% effective against the Delta Variant, but supposedly drastically reduces hospitalizations and deaths.

That was from one study done in Israel, but it's clear that the vaccines do wane or are less effective against certain variants, and even though as you point out that it's still very effective against serious illness, vaccinated people can still spread it, further justifying the need for a booster or a modified vaccine that targets the Delta variant. It also explains why the FDA has changed course and are now recommending that even vaccinated individuals wear masks in certain situations.

Right now it seems we're not sure exactly how well things are holding up with the Delta Variant now the dominant strain. I hope they get a good idea on this quicker than not. I would prefer my older relatives not go wandering about if their immunity is not holding up well against the Delta Variant.

Your concern is well justified. The current guideline is that boosters of Pfizer and Moderna are needed 8 months after the 2nd dose. and for now, they're telling people to stick with the same manufacturer. They haven't come up with a recommendation for the J&J vaccine. My wife got a booster last week.

Since it's unlikely that we'll never reach herd immunity through vaccination, we're going to be playing whack a mole, for years perhaps. The good news is that the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines are more easily tweaked to account for different variants, so it's quite possible that we'll be getting shots every 6-8 months for the foreseeable future.

[NorthHawk]

It seems that the evidence shows that of the fully vaccinated most cases that go to hospital are the elderly whose immune system has lost
its strength against this virus. It's why booster shots are being administered in some countries and seriously considered in others. Most of
the hospital cases however are the unvaccinated, far outweighing the partially vaccinated and fully vaccinated. The big concern is whether
this Delta variant will mutate into something even worse than it currently is.

[c_hawkbob]

It seems that the evidence shows that of the fully vaccinated most cases that go to hospital are the elderly whose immune system has lost
its strength against this virus. It's why booster shots are being administered in some countries and seriously considered in others. Most of
the hospital cases however are the unvaccinated, far outweighing the partially vaccinated and fully vaccinated. The big concern is whether
this Delta variant will mutate into something even worse than it currently is.

The biggest concern in my eyes is that the mutations are going to develop to target kids, who are wholly unvaccinated. If that happens their will be the blood of children (in addition to what their already is) on the hands of these anti-vaxers. It's pure freakin evil.

[RiverDog]

The biggest concern in my eyes is that the mutations are going to develop to target kids, who are wholly unvaccinated. If that happens their will be the blood of children (in addition to what their already is) on the hands of these anti-vaxers. It's pure freakin evil.

Pfizer says that they're going to apply for EUA for ages 5-11 this fall. Moderna also has a trial for younger kids that's in progress.

https://www.webmd.com/vaccines/covid-19 ... ld-by-fall.

I agree wholeheartedly with your assessment of the anti vaxxers. It's a very selfish act not to assume such a modest risk to yourself when there is a much greater, undeniable threat to others by your not getting vaccinated.