c_hawkbob wrote:I'm with you. This has become the pandemic of the unvaccinated and they're bloody well welcome to it.
NorthHawk wrote:The problem is the pockets of population where the virus can thrive and mutate.
Eventually what you worry about with a mutation evading the vaccine will happen.
It’s just a matter of time if enough people aren’t vaccinated in those areas to a
large enough degree to stop the spread and mutations.
I’m going to continue wearing a mask because even though I’m fully vaccinated I still
don’t want to get sick even if its just like a cold and if a mask can prevent that then I’m all for it.
As well, if I’m infected and don’t know it, I don’t want to spread it around to someone who
might be immunocompromised or have family members who might be.
Aseahawkfan wrote:I'll do what is required and courteous. I wasn't big on mask mandates to begin with. The masks we used in America were often Chinese made masks nowhere close to the quality masks the South Korean government provided their people to really slow this down. I don't think they were very effective myself.
A lot of these younger folks don't care about getting vaccinated because the truth of it is the deadly nature of COVID19 was greatly exaggerated. It mostly killed older people with comorbidities by a huge percentage. At my job I have had 3 people get COVID and had COVID19 twice myself, then talked to people at the job who know family members and friends who have gotten it and only a couple of people died who were both older or in foreign nations. None of the young people died. In fact, they either had no symptoms or were mild.
Even when I had COVID19 last year before they knew what it was, it was just a chest cold that lasted a few days. The second time I got it after being vaccinated, it was a barely noticeable one runny nostril and a loss of smell. I didn't even realize it was COVID until I loss my sense of smell. It lasted about a week.
How are you going to sell young people on taking a vaccine they're reading about having weird side effects versus them knowing friends who have had COVID and had mild to no symptoms for a few days? Which would seem worse to you? The stories of people getting heart inflammation or other issues from a vaccine or the people you know who had COVID who experienced mild to no symptoms for a few days?
If we had had these vaccines earlier when the fear of God was in the hearts of these young people and they thought we were all gonna die, they would have probably lined up to get a COVID19 vaccine. Now that almost everyone knows someone who had COVID19 and it didn't do much, the vaccines seem scarier to some of these young folks.
The press is still trying to sell these Delta Variant as terrible, but the younger and even middle-aged folks I talk to all know people who have gotten COVID and it had no real effect. They aren't worried about it like they used to be. They're of the mind that older people should get vaccinated, but they'll be just fine. And they are about 99% or higher right. COVID has nearly zero effect on a young, healthy person. Hell, not much of an effect on a young, unhealthy person.
I won't reveal tons of information about people at my job, but one thing I will say to illustrate the point is we had a man in his 40s who is a life long smoker get COVID, confirmed test, his worst symptoms were being tired a few days with a mild fever and loss of taste and smell. He recovered just fine, no hospital, no doctor. There are far more of these people out there than ones who died or had serious symptoms.
As I see it the main people that need vaccination are older folks with comorbidities and I mean very old. Younger people should be able to fight this off getting the same immunity as a vaccine.
All these worries about variants won't change with massive vaccines. These variants are coming because COVID19 is like a cold virus and mutates more quickly than we can keep up with. And this vaccine does not appear to kill it off as we're now seeing multiple people getting COVID who have been vaccinated, but are being told their symptoms would be worse if they were not vaccinated with minimal proof of this. We sort of have to trust this process.
And then you see places the United Kingdom and Israel who have some of the most vaccinated populations on the planet having flare ups. This runs contrary to what should have happened in heavily vaccinated populations. Which begs the question is vaccinating the most vulnerable the smartest plan at the moment? I think the answer to that is yes. People who have weaker, less adaptable immune systems should get vaccinated. As long as they get vaccinated, I think we'll be fine without masks and reopening.
RiverDog wrote:A couple points which I thought that you were already aware of.
First of all, Covid's lethality has never been the major threat with the disease. Although it's difficult to calculate compared to other diseases as we've done more testing for Covid than we have for something such as the seasonal flu, it would appear that the odds of any single person dying from Covid are roughly the same as the seasonal flu. However, the major difference with Covid is its transmissibility, it's ability to so easily infect people.
Instead of death rate, if you look at total deaths, a much more quantifiable and comparable statistic, in this country alone, Covid has killed over 600,000 people in about 18 months. A bad flu season kills about 1/10th that amount. There have been more Americans die of Covid than were killed in WW2, Korea, and Vietnam wars combined. And it would have been worse had we not embarked on the most restrictive measures ever taken to combat a disease. Just think how it would have looked had those people that died of Covid died in streets in front of apartment complexes or piled up like cordwood on a beach instead of behind the closed doors of a hospital room. Think of how the media and the public would have reacted under those circumstances. Covid was not overblown or overhyped.
As far as the vaccines go, they are perhaps the most effective, at least the two primary ones, Pfizer and Moderna, are the most effective, safest vaccines that have ever been developed.
The major problem, with both Covid and the vaccines, has been all the disinformation that's out there. Guys like Tucker Carlson should be arrested and charged with murder. As an American of 66 years, the way we have responded to Covid has been the biggest disappointment in my country in my entire life, and that includes the riots, the wars, Watergate, the Trump era, and so on. In my day, you didn't get into a public school unless you were completely vaccinated. We completely eliminated small pox and nearly eradicated polio through vaccinations.
Americans as a whole are irresponsible with the freedoms that we have. They are too stupid to be trusted with rational decisions. I'm almost to the point where I'd advocate tearing up the Constitution and starting over again, replace our democracy with a much more hard line government, eliminate freedom of the press, freedom of speech, the right to bear arms. I'm disgusted with our behavior.
Delta is spreading 50% faster than Alpha, which was 50% more contagious than the original strain of SARS-CoV-2, he says. “In a completely unmitigated environment—where no one is vaccinated or wearing masks—it’s estimated that the average person infected with the original coronavirus strain will infect 2.5 other people,” Dr. Wilson says. “In the same environment, Delta would spread from one person to maybe 3.5 or 4 other people.”
c_hawkbob wrote:I largely agree with you Riv but you need to update your comparator as being seasonal flu:
"Delta is spreading 50% faster than Alpha, which was 50% more contagious than the original strain of SARS-CoV-2, he says. “In a completely unmitigated environment—where no one is vaccinated or wearing masks—it’s estimated that the average person infected with the original coronavirus strain will infect 2.5 other people,” Dr. Wilson says. “In the same environment, Delta would spread from one person to maybe 3.5 or 4 other people.”
https://www.yalemedicine.org/news/5-thi ... iant-covid
Besides greater infection rates, lingering health effects are much more substantial with covid than the flu.
RiverDog wrote:From your second link:
Pickering noted that medical data suggests that the U.K.’s high rate of vaccination has significantly weakened the link between recorded Covid infections and complications from the disease, supporting the bank’s call that “the U.K. can get through the new wave of infections without having to tighten restrictions and thus with only limited economic damage.”
Pickering said the data highlighted that this wave of infections was unlike previous ones with the number of recorded infections rising at a slower pace than during the previous wave, and that there had been no clear rise in deaths despite the rise in cases.
Secondly, he noted that new hospital admissions had increased less than recorded infections — and by much less than during the winter wave.
Vaccinations have clearly helped the situation in the UK. Yes, their cases are increasing, but the seriousness is significantly less than it would have been without them.
So much for the vaccines not being effective.
As far as your assertation about young people being immune to Covid, that was true in previous waves, but not this current one:
"This year's virus is not last year's virus. It's attacking our 40-year-olds. It's attacking our parents and young grandparents, and it's getting our kids. And so understanding how different this is and that we can't take our experience from last year and apply it to today and assume we're going to be OK is our biggest fight right now," O'Neal said.
She said her Covid-19 unit now has more patients she would have previously considered healthy than ever before, including people in their 20s.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/docto ... uxbndlbing
Young people have virtually no chance of dying? Not according to this study:
Data from one study shows that of more than 3,000 adults ages 18 to 34 who contracted COVID-19 and became sick enough to require hospital care, 21% ended up in intensive care, 10% were placed on a breathing machine and 2.7% died.
https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/ ... t-risk-too
So let's put to rest this myth that younger people are not at risk to this disease.
"A recent increase in Covid-19 hospitalizations among adolescents reinforces the importance of getting vaccinated and practicing prevention measures against the virus, according to a study released Friday.
The report looked at hospitalization data for 12-to-17-year-olds from a large coronavirus surveillance network and found 204 adolescents (extremely small number) who were likely (not even confirmed all COVID as reason) hospitalized primarily for Covid-19 between January 1 and March 31, 2021 (over a 3 month period). Nearly a third were admitted to intensive care units and roughly 4.9% required invasive mechanical ventilation. [b]There were no associated deaths.
I-5 wrote:Just dropping by to say hi. We've been so busy at my company for the past 6 months, I just haven't been able to check in much anymore. I guess that's mostly a good thing in terms of business. Things have definitely picked up since the last half of 2020, and I'm preparing for my first trip across the border next month to see family and friends in Seattle.
Regarding this topic: despite disagreements here, I maintain that if the rest of the country showed as much good citizenship as this forum, we'd be much better off. FYI we finally received our 2nd dose (mine was Moderna) last month. Canada had supply problems early on but has been aggressively getting as many vaccinated as possible, and I'm glad to say that 70% of the population has received their first dose, and 49% are fully vaccinated. That obviously means we still have our fair share of anti-vaxxers of course, but the numbers could be a lot worse. Regarding masks, my wife has started not wearing hers after her first dose, whereas I still wear mine whenever I go out and have to be indoors. We do go to a few restaurants, but I'm picky about which ones feel safe and try to limit the frequency. All other businesses still recommend masks indoors, and I find about 90-95% of the people I see still wear theirs. That makes me feel safer. Cheers if I don't see you again for a few weeks/months lol.
The contracts the Trump administration signed with the vaccine manufacturers prohibit the U.S. from sharing its surplus doses with the rest of the world. According to contract language Vanity Fair has obtained, the agreements with Pfizer, Moderna, AstraZeneca, and Janssen state: “The Government may not use, or authorize the use of, any products or materials provided under this Project Agreement, unless such use occurs in the United States” or U.S. territories.
“That is what has completely and totally prohibited the U.S. from donating or reselling, because it would be in breach of contract,” said a senior administration official involved in the global planning effort. “It is a complete and total ban. Those legal parameters must change before we do anything to help the rest of the world.”
In a statement to Vanity Fair, a Defense Department spokesperson acknowledged the contract restrictions, saying: “DoD did attempt to negotiate terms that would allow the use of vaccine doses outside the U.S., but in some cases, the vaccine manufacturers refused.”
The impasse is especially frustrating because the Biden team’s global ambitions go beyond donating money or surplus vaccines. Vanity Fair has learned that the administration is quietly considering plans to have the U.S. serve as a major manufacturer of affordable, high-quality COVID vaccines for the entire world—a role typically reserved for lower-cost countries such as India. The effort began in plain sight on March 2, when the administration announced that, under the Defense Production Act, Merck would repurpose two of its U.S. manufacturing plants to begin producing the Johnson & Johnson vaccine. The partnership, pairing two traditional rivals, could yield as many as one billion doses a year.
On Sunday, March 28, the U.S. government took what appeared to be another small step toward that goal. A cargo plane touched down in Mexico City bearing 1.5 million doses of the AstraZeneca vaccine that is being manufactured here, but still has not been approved by U.S. drug regulators. Ten days earlier, the Biden administration had announced plans to “loan” 4 million AstraZeneca doses to Mexico and Canada, and this was the first installment.
Before the doses could be shipped, the two countries had to negotiate separate contracts to indemnify AstraZeneca. Even then, the use of the term “loan” was designed to end-run the language in the original Operation Warp Speed contracts.
c_hawkbob wrote:That's the same information I linked other than the addition of your own speculation. Did you read my full post?
c_hawkbob wrote:I don't know what it would take to change those legal parameters but it doesn't seem to be as simple a Biden giving the thumbs up to it:
c_hawkbob wrote:So be it. I'll take the word of the administration official tasked with sharing the vaccine with the rest of the world. I expect he'd have more first hand information.
Why would Biden be legally prevented from shipping 20 million doses when he was able to ship 4.2 million? It doesn't make sense.
Why would Biden be legally prevented from shipping 20 million doses when he was able to ship 4.2 million? It doesn't make sense.
c_hawkbob wrote:Oh come on like half the sh!t coming from any court makes any more sense. You believe what you want evidently, as if there must be some nefarious reason they'd do it that way rather than what they said. Perhaps you missed the part about both countries having to reach separate agreements to indemnify AZ to get that first shipment sent. That's 3 entities (two countries and a corporation) involved in each agreement, you have no idea how or at who's behest the number was reached, you just like to assume it must be the Democratic administration ... get your Republican cred back after the previous administration. Honestly, I don't blame you, I just choose to take them at there word till I have reason not to.
The impasse is especially frustrating because the Biden team’s global ambitions go beyond donating money or surplus vaccines. Vanity Fair has learned that the administration is quietly considering plans to have the U.S. serve as a major manufacturer of affordable, high-quality COVID vaccines for the entire world—a role typically reserved for lower-cost countries such as India. The effort began in plain sight on March 2, when the administration announced that, under the Defense Production Act, Merck would repurpose two of its U.S. manufacturing plants to begin producing the Johnson & Johnson vaccine. The partnership, pairing two traditional rivals, could yield as many as one billion doses a year.
c_hawkbob wrote:Sorry but I infer no such implication. I am taking the article and those quoted therein at their word. It's Riv and yourself that are reading what suits you into it based upon your assumptions about how you think things 'must be'.
As for the congressman of Indian heritage, of course he wants vaccines for his homeland, but I can see the administration's interest in making bordering countries safe first. I can also se the reason for dedicating one dose vaccines for poorer countries for logistical reason's (now there you have my first assumptions in this discussion) and I truly hope those, as well as the existing AZ doses get out ASAP, tomorrow wouldn't be soon enough for me personally, but I'm not ready to demonize people tasked with doing so without more to go on.
c_hawkbob wrote:Sorry but I infer no such implication. I am taking the article and those quoted therein at their word. It's Riv and yourself that are reading what suits you into it based upon your assumptions about how you think things 'must be'.
As for the congressman of Indian heritage, of course he wants vaccines for his homeland, but I can see the administration's interest in making bordering countries safe first. I can also se the reason for dedicating one dose vaccines for poorer countries for logistical reason's (now there you have my first assumptions in this discussion) and I truly hope those, as well as the existing AZ doses get out ASAP, tomorrow wouldn't be soon enough for me personally, but I'm not ready to demonize people tasked with doing so without more to go on.
It's a decision that requires not sharing in order to develop the manufacturing infrastructure at home thus creating a marketplace around the globe.
NorthHawk wrote:Vanity Fair has learned that the administration is quietly considering plans to have the U.S. serve as a major manufacturer of affordable, high-quality COVID vaccines for the entire world—a role typically reserved for lower-cost countries such as India
I don't know how anyone can infer anything other than a conscious decision to not release vaccine in quantities because of politics. It's a decision that requires not sharing in order to develop the manufacturing infrastructure at home thus creating a marketplace around the globe.
What they don't understand is the companies are multinational so they have plants in other countries and can set up shop in any country they choose. In the case of India, they manufacture the vaccine locally, but with their massive population, they can't produce enough to keep ahead of the virus spread and that's where major variants will probably be produced first.
NorthHawk wrote:They seem to be going the "vaccine passport" route in France - or something like it.
Once they said people couldn't go to their local Cafe without proof of vaccination, the vaccination rate soared.
Quebec has outright said they are going to use a vaccine passport and once announced vaccine rates also increased significantly.
I don't know if these two examples can be used for all of western society, but it does suggest that the vaccine passport idea isn't
as disliked as some may think and that the fear of missing out on a more normal life might encourage others to get vaccinated.
Hawktawk wrote:I went in walmart the other day and almost masked up. Its coming back for sure along with the rude belligerent freedom fighting jackasses.
This is shaping up a lot like the spanish flu. This delta variant is terrifying affecting much younger healthier people, filling up pediatric wards in Gov Ron Deathsantis state of florida with under 50% vaccinated , blowing up in mainly red states with low vaccination rates and very few protocols BUT CREATING VARIANTS THAT THREATEN THE ENTIRE NATION AND WORLD. Fauci who is not perfect but who i trust far more than Tucker Carlson has said far worse than delta could easily be coming if we let this thing continue to spin off variants by not getting vaccinated.To Jay Inslee's credit WA has one of the flattest curves in the nation with our 70%* vaccination rate and stricter protocols, later opening although the flatland earth society part of the state east of the cascades is far worse due to the sub cult of anti vax denial from the trumpanzee party.
America may yet be too stupid, too selfish, too deluded by conspiracy freaks to survive this. Its absolutely sickening that we are exporting this to other needy countries who are crying out for it and people who can get it at the corner drugstore wont endangering all of us. I've really come to loathe them.
https://www.the-sun.com/news/3432685/fl ... auci-dies/
I wish this was Deathsantis, I really do. It would serve him absolutely right
NorthHawk wrote:One of the advantages of a universal health care system is a central registry where everyone is given a health number or equivalent. It then becomes easier to keep track of who has received what treatments and offer official validations. In Canada each province is responsible for the delivery of health services so it’s slightly different across the country, but the single payer and ability to register are basically the same. One problem with a National vaccine passport is developing a central registry on a national scale and possible privacy issues that might arise. Whereas countries in Europe for the most part have a single health payer and registry already in place so it’s easier to make health related decisions for them.
NorthHawk wrote:I’m just saying it’s much easier and quicker with a single payer system.
NorthHawk wrote:I think it would be wise to work with other countries for basic standards so any type of passport would be acceptable around the world, or a large part of it. It would be a huge boost to business and tourism to get back to normal ways of travel and trade.
NorthHawk wrote:I don’t know if something is being worked on at the lower levels to set acceptable standards, but I think it’s something that should be going on. It’s a logical step towards normalcy.
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