Afghanistan

[Hawktawk]

I agree with this . Hindsight is 20-20 but I think after decades of brewing terror this is a region we should control permanently . We had not had a casualty in almost 2 years and the Taliban were at bay . This is so ugly us troops tear gassing people trying to swarm the airport . People saying we left too hastily . Looks like we stayed too
Long .

[Hawktawk]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WcS-gsv3rks

This is a great american hero, very courageous. And he's telling the truth and what he's saying applies to our civilian political leaders too. I saw this on FB as it was shared by my friend and next condo neighbor. He's a former military guy who served tours in the Iraq and Afghanistan theater as well. Not sure what he did but I think something spooky cause he knows a lot more than the press. He has PTSD and has an adopted Dalmatian that violates the covenants at our condo but nobody's getting that dog away from him and i dont recommend they try. He's a Trump supporter but does not Blame Biden for the operational failure. He blames the brass although he is furious with Bidens happy talk and dishonesty early in the catastrophe punctuated by the deaths of 13 servicemen. He thinks the entire military brass should resign or be fired and in fact he felt the Sec of Defense and chairman of joint chiefs Milley should have left the day after the "walk" as he refers to their fascist stunt with Trump in Lafayette park. That was surprising to hear from a trump supporter.

It looks like we are pulling it together somewhat better with striking back at ISIS and we have now airlifted 117 K people in the last 2 weeks. Just today the US and 97 other countries reached an agreement with the Taliban to continue evacuations after the 31st. Nobody likes the idea of outsourcing security to the Taliban but that's part of the Trump contribution. 2500 troops would never have been enough to provide security. There's over 7 K now and its still bedlam. My neighbor has the same conclusion as I do regarding this situation. We should never have left. Look at the POS crawling out of the woodwork as soon as we do. Much as S Korea and parts of Europe there's just places we need a presence.

[c_hawkbob]

I don not agree that we should never have left. We should never have gone there as an occupying force in the first place.

The only problem I have with our leaving is the idiot idea of putting a date as a deadline to complete a mission. We just needed to say we were doing it and done it, however long it took to do it properly. Start by getting all Americans out and all of the allies that fought along side us these last 20 years then the military pull out. A mission should be defined by the completion of the objective, not meeting a random deadline.

I also want to know where all these people decrying our leaving allies there to die were when we left every single one of the Kurds that did the same thing to face genocide when we pulled out of Iraq. Explain to me how that was any different. Joe has grossly mishandled this, but at least he is making an effort to get as many (117,000 last number I saw) out as we're leaving.

[Hawktawk]

There is no real difference in the pullout from Syria and Afghanistan in terms of screwing our partners . The difference is that Biden at least gave some notice to them we were leaving . Months of notice . Flights were leaving Kabul half empty till the city fell. The area notice wasn’t given was departing Bagram in the dead of night , far and away the worst of the blunders .

Trump got off the phone with Erogodon Turkish strongman and Immediately ordered us out if northern Syria . Kurds were slaughtered. Us troops took live fire from Syrians as they evacuated . General
Mattis resigned in disgust . John Bolton said he believed Trump had personal gain in mind as he did in many foreign policy decisions . Isis regrouped and a mechanized division had to be sent back in . Trumpers haven’t a leg to stand on pointing fingers. It’s still one of the biggest military blunders I can recall and nobody taken accountability . Heads should roll among the planners of this strategy . I don’t want these people making military decisions anymore .

[Aseahawkfan]

I don not agree that we should never have left. We should never have gone there as an occupying force in the first place.

The only problem I have with our leaving is the idiot idea of putting a date as a deadline to complete a mission. We just needed to say we were doing it and done it, however long it took to do it properly. Start by getting all Americans out and all of the allies that fought along side us these last 20 years then the military pull out. A mission should be defined by the completion of the objective, not meeting a random deadline.

I also want to know where all these people decrying our leaving allies there to die were when we left every single one of the Kurds that did the same thing to face genocide when we pulled out of Iraq. Explain to me how that was any different. Joe has grossly mishandled this, but at least he is making an effort to get as many (117,000 last number I saw) out as we're leaving.

It wasn't any different. Pretty much been what we do since Vietnam. Talking to Vietnamese people completely changed my view of this. I never realized how many Vietnamese people were angry we left. How they fled to other nations because of America's betrayal. The South Vietnamese felt like they wouldn't have had to give up their nation to the communists if we hadn't pulled out. We left them behind to be mistreated and killed by the NVA. This is not new at all. People tend to gloss over how betrayed and wronged the South Vietnamese people felt when America left Vietnam and signed over the country to the North Vietnamese Army.

We just keep making that mistake. The politicians just won't admit they don't have the support of the American people to engage in this occupation any longer since Vietnam. If you can't control a nation for generations to allow that generational change you need to alter the course of a nation, you won't be successful.

It just needs to stop. These politicians trying to relive the glory days of the post-World War 2 America that was fighting communism and remaking the world in their image is gone. It needs to be acknowledged and we need to stop deploying to these nations.

[Aseahawkfan]

There is no real difference in the pullout from Syria and Afghanistan in terms of screwing our partners . The difference is that Biden at least gave some notice to them we were leaving . Months of notice . Flights were leaving Kabul half empty till the city fell. The area notice wasn’t given was departing Bagram in the dead of night , far and away the worst of the blunders .

Trump got off the phone with Erogodon Turkish strongman and Immediately ordered us out if northern Syria . Kurds were slaughtered. Us troops took live fire from Syrians as they evacuated . General
Mattis resigned in disgust . John Bolton said he believed Trump had personal gain in mind as he did in many foreign policy decisions . Isis regrouped and a mechanized division had to be sent back in . Trumpers haven’t a leg to stand on pointing fingers. It’s still one of the biggest military blunders I can recall and nobody taken accountability . Heads should roll among the planners of this strategy . I don’t want these people making military decisions anymore .

Then start attacking the American people since Vietnam and politicians like Bush Jr. and other Republicans who lead us into wars they know the American people will not support for the necessary amount of time to win.

All the places that we have turned into model democracies we are still there except The Philippines. The only way you turn a nation into something else is occupation for generations, 50 plus years. You build a base there and you stay keeping order for multiple generations. Short-term warfare doesn't work for changing nations. It's a multi-lifetime commitment the American people are unwilling to make any longer.

[Hawktawk]

So the last flights depart 2 days ahead of schedule leaving 300 Americans and thousands of Afghans stranded. a country that could not .get its people out with 6k troops on the ground is now negotiating with terrorists to get them out and didn't even stay till their own deadline to try. Hope I am wrong but some of these people could be sold to ISIS etc.Anyone who thinks there have been congressional investigations before better get their popcorn. The blame is all around from Bush starting the occupation to Obama passing up the perfect opportunity for a victory lap withdrawal to Trump laying land mines for Biden all over the middle east especially this god forsaken country. Then along came Biden and I am sorry his team just seems incompetent, timid,cowardly,risk averse to the point of paralysis.. R and D legislators are furious. I now see no scenario where Rs don't pick up a healthy majority in both chambers next year. Biden's presidency is effectively over barring some miraculous event IMO. It is beginning to look like the perfect scenario for Trump. Biden will beat nobody in 24 if he even runs.

[RiverDog]

I now see no scenario where Rs don't pick up a healthy majority in both chambers next year. Biden's presidency is effectively over barring some miraculous event IMO. It is beginning to look like the perfect scenario for Trump. Biden will beat nobody in 24 if he even runs.

Agreed about R's prospects in the House, but they are at a mathematical disadvantage in the Senate. The Dems only have to defend 14 seats while the R's have to defend 20. In addition, there will be 5 R Senators that will not be running for re-election. None of the 14 Dems have yet to announce that they're not running. There are 5 R seats up for re-election in blue or purple states. It's still a long ways away, but the numbers don't look good for the R's.

[Hawktawk]

https://www.wsj.com/articles/afghanista ... 1630612285

Pretty scathing assessment from a moderate republican columnist. Much I have to agree with. Aides and cabinet officials are anonymously leaking that they are "appalled" americans were left behind etc. Politicians in both parties as well as from other countries are piling on.Its leaked that General Milley had strongly urged tearing up the Trump deal and leaving a permanent security footprint in the country to maintain order and protect the west laying waste to claims it was a slam dunk consensus. All his advisers advised against following a short time window and date certain.Biden alone chose the course of action that was taken although he was not responsible for operational details. The decision to leave Bagram we was based on Biden being unwilling to bring another 2k troops back into the country to operate it and also evacuate citizens. Its was a risk averse strategy to protect military assets much like Benghazi. Its why they left in the middle of the night without announcing it to anyone IMO although it was highly demoralizing and destabilizing.

Bidens tone at the dignified transfer, his defiant defensive tone in his speech announcing the end of the war was tone deaf AF although much of the substances about ending the era of building nations I agreed with.

His now leaked transcript of a call with then Afghan pres in june when he advised him to "project an air of confidence whether that is in fact the reality" looks very bad, very bad. Especially when they are now saying nobody had a clue it would fall so fast.

In the same call the Afghan President told him they were facing fierce battles with thousands of well armed terrorist's and LOGISTICAL SUPPORT FROM THE PAKISTANI ARMY!!!!! First I heard of that . On the other hand I've heard some of the republican aides to Trump who helped fashion his plan applaud Biden's decision so who knows . Time will tell how this will all fall out but Ill predict right now there will be an impeachment attempt the minute republicans seize both houses assuming polls stay where they are. I dont agree with it, bad policy isn't impeachable and I see this as half bad half good but its gonna happen.

[RiverDog]

https://www.wsj.com/articles/afghanistan-withdrawal-fiasco-biden-mcchrystal-gates-holbrooke-obama-military-taliban-11630612285

Pretty scathing assessment from a moderate republican columnist. Much I have to agree with. Aides and cabinet officials are anonymously leaking that they are "appalled" americans were left behind etc. Politicians in both parties as well as from other countries are piling on.Its leaked that General Milley had strongly urged tearing up the Trump deal and leaving a permanent security footprint in the country to maintain order and protect the west laying waste to claims it was a slam dunk consensus. All his advisers advised against following a short time window and date certain.Biden alone chose the course of action that was taken although he was not responsible for operational details. The decision to leave Bagram we was based on Biden being unwilling to bring another 2k troops back into the country to operate it and also evacuate citizens. Its was a risk averse strategy to protect military assets much like Benghazi. Its why they left in the middle of the night without announcing it to anyone IMO although it was highly demoralizing and destabilizing.

Bidens tone at the dignified transfer, his defiant defensive tone in his speech announcing the end of the war was tone deaf AF although much of the substances about ending the era of building nations I agreed with.

His now leaked transcript of a call with then Afghan pres in june when he advised him to "project an air of confidence whether that is in fact the reality" looks very bad, very bad. Especially when they are now saying nobody had a clue it would fall so fast.

In the same call the Afghan President told him they were facing fierce battles with thousands of well armed terrorist's and LOGISTICAL SUPPORT FROM THE PAKISTANI ARMY!!!!! First I heard of that . On the other hand I've heard some of the republican aides to Trump who helped fashion his plan applaud Biden's decision so who knows . Time will tell how this will all fall out but Ill predict right now there will be an impeachment attempt the minute republicans seize both houses assuming polls stay where they are. I dont agree with it, bad policy isn't impeachable and I see this as half bad half good but its gonna happen.

I can only read the first paragraph of your link as I don't have a subscription to the WSJ, but I get the jest.

This incident is producing some strange bedfellows. Ann Colter is actually siding with Biden, calling Trump "a wuss" who broke his promise and said that at least Biden "had the balls" to bring the troops home when Trump didn't.

[Aseahawkfan]

https://www.wsj.com/articles/afghanistan-withdrawal-fiasco-biden-mcchrystal-gates-holbrooke-obama-military-taliban-11630612285

Pretty scathing assessment from a moderate republican columnist. Much I have to agree with. Aides and cabinet officials are anonymously leaking that they are "appalled" americans were left behind etc. Politicians in both parties as well as from other countries are piling on.Its leaked that General Milley had strongly urged tearing up the Trump deal and leaving a permanent security footprint in the country to maintain order and protect the west laying waste to claims it was a slam dunk consensus. All his advisers advised against following a short time window and date certain.Biden alone chose the course of action that was taken although he was not responsible for operational details. The decision to leave Bagram we was based on Biden being unwilling to bring another 2k troops back into the country to operate it and also evacuate citizens. Its was a risk averse strategy to protect military assets much like Benghazi. Its why they left in the middle of the night without announcing it to anyone IMO although it was highly demoralizing and destabilizing.

Bidens tone at the dignified transfer, his defiant defensive tone in his speech announcing the end of the war was tone deaf AF although much of the substances about ending the era of building nations I agreed with.

His now leaked transcript of a call with then Afghan pres in june when he advised him to "project an air of confidence whether that is in fact the reality" looks very bad, very bad. Especially when they are now saying nobody had a clue it would fall so fast.

In the same call the Afghan President told him they were facing fierce battles with thousands of well armed terrorist's and LOGISTICAL SUPPORT FROM THE PAKISTANI ARMY!!!!! First I heard of that . On the other hand I've heard some of the republican aides to Trump who helped fashion his plan applaud Biden's decision so who knows . Time will tell how this will all fall out but Ill predict right now there will be an impeachment attempt the minute republicans seize both houses assuming polls stay where they are. I dont agree with it, bad policy isn't impeachable and I see this as half bad half good but its gonna happen.

If you talk to Afghans, you know Pakistan is funding the Taliban. Pakistan is the same type of Wahabi Sunni Islam as the Taliban. They both share the same practices and beliefs. That's why over the years you read stories from Pakistan like charging a 4 year old with the death penalty for blasphemy for dropping a Quran on the ground. They also apparently want control of a river and water supply in Western Afghanistan, so they have been undermining Afghan stability for years.

Iran is also interfering in Afghanistan, but not with the Taliban. They are a different type of Islam. They fund Shia Muslim militias near the Iranian border.

Then there is the Tajik and Pashtun tribal conflicts as to why Afghans don't always work together.

Afghanistan is a mess that was held together by American military power. Once that power was removed, The Taliban reasserted control. We'll see how long they last. They only ruled for 5 years prior to America driving them out. Afghanistan isn't all going to let The Taliban do what they want. Probably be a Civil War against The Taliban at some point.

[Hawktawk]

Asea you are correct about internal resistance to the Taliban . It’s happening . As for the piling on the Biden adminstration for it’s handling of this pullout they were able to negotiate the release of all remaining Americans yesterday other than those who refuse to leave without extended families including Afghan relatives . This should take a talking point weapon out of the hands of the trumplican crowd.

It’s laughable when Cheeto calls this the most embarrassing thing ever for America . No Cheeto that’s you and you continue to be an embarrassment and danger to democracy . In April you criticized Biden for not having withdrawn on your timetable with the 2500 troops you left him .
It’s what it is . Lindsey Graham says we will be back there due to terrorist . Why didn’t he complain about Trumps plan ? The hypocrisy is staggering . The same people who stopped people from Afghanistan from emigrating for 4 years suddenly wanted Biden to evacuate everyone down to the janitors who helped clean barracks . Then they turn around and say we’re importing terrorists . We are , another 45 were vetted yesterday making the total around 200 that are known . Terror will occur due to some of these people . It’s a sad chapter . I did Discover my neighbor is a retired LT colonel and West Point educator . He does not blame Biden for the operational failures but does not think we should ever have withdrawn . The deaths of the 13 are weighing on him . I’m sure he buried some troops over the last 2 decades . Moral of the story no more nation building .

[Hawktawk]

As the military brass and Sec of Def were grilled today regarding the chaotic withdrawal they dropped a serious dime on the commander in chief . Biden had described his decisions as based on a consensus . Beyond that he was flatly asked by George Stephanopolis if he had been advised to leave 2500 troops to which he replied no not as I recall . His brass flatly contradicted him and made clear he had been actively engaged in the discussion . It looks like he’s as remorseless a liar as his predecessor . Pretty disappointing . I can respect they said leave a force and he said no more occupation in a civil war. But own it dude . It’s not good when the military and president don’t trust one another and its 2 adminstrations in a row at least now .