Sleepy Joe Cuts the Cheese

[Aseahawkfan]

In a NORAD Santa chaser event a parent told Biden “ let’s go Brandon “ Biden agreed” yes let’s go Brandon “ he proceeded to ask what town Jarred was from and then said “ I think we lost Jarred . I really want to think it was dead pan self depreciation but I think it’s just more evidence of stark mental decline , borderline dementia . Even CNN reported he seemed extremely confused in an interview discussing the pandemic where he repeatedly confused the oral pills and the tests . The Democratic Party is as deficient in invoking the 25th amendment as the last adminstration . You worry about inflation ? I worry about a nuclear Pearl Harbor . We need a steady clear headed leader with their faculties about them.

I'm more worried about an internal Civil War myself. The January 6th riot would have been way worse if Trump had called for the killing of Congress. If General Flynn had executed Mark Milley and they had someone in place to assume command of the military.

States are getting more concentrated red and blue. Texas and Florida are two huge Southern states getting concentrated with anti-government sentiment and lots of armed citizens ready to fight. More and more people are moving there and their governors are clearly anti-Democrat and anti-government control. They are getting a huge number of people in both of those states ready to battle the Democrats.

I also think the military would be far more split than many people assume if a Republican versus Democrat war started. It would not be a united military against the American people. It would be a bunch of military units defecting to a particular side.

If Biden continues to exceed his authority in regards to the states and private citizens, it may push far enough to cause a Civil War with a weak president and vice president in office that aren't well suited to prosecute one.

Only one ingredient is missing at the moment and I hope we don't ever see it: a war leader for the Republicans willing to call them to arms in an organized and focused manner. If that happens, you will see a Civil War in America in your life time that will be terrible.

[RiverDog]

These mandates are exceeding legal precedent. When we discussed mandates a while back, law supports mandates for government employees, government property, and medical workers. Private business it is up to them whether or not they mandate a vaccine. I'm interested to see if the Supreme Court backs a vaccine mandate this wide spread and what happens if they do. How far will the anti-vaccine people go to fight back?

Exceeding legal precedent? What legal precedent? The Supreme Court ruled that they are within the government's authority and that not even religious reasons were legitimate. Nearly all of the mandates have allowed for "genuinely held religions objections", so if anything, they are not rising to the level of the only SCOTUS ruling on the question.

You act like the government can just force the mandate and everything will be fine, no one will take up arms to resist it. I think 35% or more of Americans resisting is over a 100 million people. That group can mount a real terrible resistance to this. They are concentrated in some big states.

I never once said that "everything would be fine" regarding the mandates. I am well aware that there are a large number that object to them.

A 100 million people who think they are getting discriminated against for refusing a vaccine. You going to support putting them in camps like Australia? If so, you think they will tolerate that like Australians with no resistance? I want to see.

You seem very confident the anti-vaccine crowd won't mount a violent resistance, but I want to see if they do. I think they might do it. I think they might concentrate in Florida and Texas and the other Southern States and get serious about this level of government encroachment. If the government starts putting them in camps or trying to arrest people, I think Americans will react very differently than Australians.

And I don't really think you or the rest of the world really understand where we're at as a nation. January 6th wasn't a coup to me, it was a wake up call that a segment of America is reaching a point that violent opposition to the government is a very real possibility. That there is a growing anger and division in America that is going to reach a point of severe and prolonged violence. The rest of the world like in Canada don't really know how divided America is right now, how angry Americans are, and how much this is reaching a point of extreme reaction.

But we'll see if you're right and all these people go meekly to get vaccinated if the Supreme Court upholds this widespread a vaccine mandate and what measures they try to enforce it.

When I hear c-bob saying his neighbors are making jokes about fighting and they are better armed, I believe him. The Republicans I know make the same jokes. They aren't kidding. I know quite a few people that would have taken up arms if Trump had called for it. They are more than ready to take up arms against the Democrats. They are just waiting for a Republican war leader to sound the bell and say, "We can no longer accept what you are trying to force on us. It's time to fight."

I personally support vaccine mandates. I do not see any legitimate legal or moral objection to them. That doesn't necessarily mean that I think that mandates are good public policy. I've always said that I'd be willing to do whatever it takes from a legal and social perspective to get as many needles into arms as possible.

I do feel that mandates is a stupid hill to die on. There are much more serious threats to our individual rights than a little poke in the arm. The government is already dictating to us what is and isn't good for us, what kind of behavior is acceptable and what is a threat to society. What's the difference between being told that you can't drink and drive vs. that you have to get a shot in the arm?

[c_hawkbob]

The 'legal precedent' for vaccine mandates date back to George Washington who mandated vaccines for all troops not having already had small pox. A mandate without which we'd probably still be British subjects. The argument is completely without merit.

[RiverDog]

The 'legal precedent' for vaccine mandates date back to George Washington who mandated vaccines for all troops not having already had small pox. A mandate without which we'd probably still be British subjects. The argument is completely without merit.

Wow, I didn't realize that! And here I consider myself a student of history.

The precedent I was referring to is the most recent SCOTUS ruling, Jacobson vs. Massachusetts in 1905. It's pretty clear and the current court would have to confront that ruling. Until that is overturned, it's the law of the land.

[c_hawkbob]

The 'legal precedent' for vaccine mandates date back to George Washington who mandated vaccines for all troops not having already had small pox. A mandate without which we'd probably still be British subjects. The argument is completely without merit.

Wow, I didn't realize that! And here I consider myself a student of history.

The precedent I was referring to is the most recent SCOTUS ruling, Jacobson vs. Massachusetts in 1905. It's pretty clear and the current court would have to confront that ruling. Until that is overturned, it's the law of the land.

Well, to be completely accurate I should have said he mandated "inoculations", they didn't call them vaccines back then. The precedent is solid nevertheless.

[Aseahawkfan]

Exceeding legal precedent? What legal precedent? The Supreme Court ruled that they are within the government's authority and that not even religious reasons were legitimate. Nearly all of the mandates have allowed for "genuinely held religions objections", so if anything, they are not rising to the level of the only SCOTUS ruling on the question.

Not for private business. https://www.nytimes.com/2021/12/22/us/politics/osha-vaccine-mandate-supreme-court.html

Private businesses can mandate vaccines on their own, but the government compelling them is a new legal precedent. I can see the Supreme Court siding with Biden given the legal precedents for other cases.

https://www.americanbar.org/groups/litigation/committees/mass-torts/articles/2021/winter2022-not-breaking-news-mandatory-vaccination-has-been-constitutional-for-over-a-century/

We discussed this a while back including the case law which made the following clear:

1. Government can mandate vaccination for government employees.

2. Can mandate vaccination on government property.

3. And private employers can mandate vaccination as a private business owner.

What is new is mandating vaccination for large employers as in the government encroaching upon the rights of business owners to decide for themselves or that have a massive negative material impact on their business and ability to employ.

So should be interesting to see what the Supreme Court rules on this one and what happens after that.

[Aseahawkfan]

Wow, I didn't realize that! And here I consider myself a student of history.

The precedent I was referring to is the most recent SCOTUS ruling, Jacobson vs. Massachusetts in 1905. It's pretty clear and the current court would have to confront that ruling. Until that is overturned, it's the law of the land.

Already aware of this one. Which is why I told Trents a while back his Constitutional argument was unlikely to be supported by the very men who wrote it. Most of them were men of science and believed in it. They would have instituted vaccine mandates including George Washington and considered the anti-vaccine crowd to be clowns.

It is amusing that Trump is being attacked by his base for supporting vaccination. I wonder how much it will split his base against him and hurt his chances of re-election. Let's hope it finishes him because it doesn't look like the Democrats will be able to do it. The irony of being undone by one of the greatest achievements of his administration is amusing.

[NorthHawk]

I find it completely out of character for Trump to not have been boasting about the development of "His vaccine".
It was a huge achievement for any administration, and he seemed to almost disown it. I guess in his political calculus he thought there were more votes
on the anti-vax and conspiracy side than the pro vaccination side. But to not declare it to be the best in the world and to get the appreciation of others just
seems odd to me.

[Hawktawk]

I don’t believe vaccines had been approved when Trump lost . In general his dismissive attitude and meddling with science cost him the election. His embracing them might cost him his base . It’s a win win .

[RiverDog]

Had Trump been more active promoting the vaccines when they first came out and got out ahead of all the conspiracies, then it might have made a difference. But he took his vaccination in secret and didn't do hardly anything to advance the cause. Had it been any other person, they would have agreed to go on national TV and make a plea for everyone to get vaccinated.

I give the Trump Administration a huge atta boy for the development of the vaccines. Had not the government under written the expenses by purchasing them in advance before the trials were complete and before they were approved, it would have been many months later before they would have been available for most of the population. It was one of the few things they got right during the pandemic.

[Hawktawk]

Alex Jones called Trump either an idiot or evil welcome to the party Alex . You’re as evil as trump , worse actually .

[Aseahawkfan]

Alex Jones is Rush Limbaugh on steroids and cocaine.

[c_hawkbob]

As opposed to oxycodone and cocaine eh?

[Aseahawkfan]

As opposed to oxycodone and cocaine eh?

That part was hard given Rush Limbaugh was a known pill popper and drug users. Another typical conservative talking head who doesn't actually walk the walk.

Kind of like the jackass at CNN who just got fired: Chris Cuomo.

[RiverDog]

As opposed to oxycodone and cocaine eh?

That part was hard given Rush Limbaugh was a known pill popper and drug users. Another typical conservative talking head who doesn't actually walk the walk.

Kind of like the jackass at CNN who just got fired: Chris Cuomo.

Yeah, conservative talk show hosts aren't the only ones that practice the "do as I say, not as I do" hypocrisy. See Gavin Newsome and Nancy Pelosi.

[Hawktawk]

90% of them in both parties are phonies

[NorthHawk]

The difference is one party wants to get power in any way possible including destroying democracy while the other is playing
by the old rules from the 80's and 90's. Both have extremist wings, but the Republican wing is leading their party.

[Aseahawkfan]

The difference is one party wants to get power in any way possible including destroying democracy while the other is playing
by the old rules from the 80's and 90's. Both have extremist wings, but the Republican wing is leading their party.

They been building to this for a while. Which is why I think a Civil War is a very real possibility if a charismatic Republican with the right connections, message, and willingness to do it occurs.

I was talking to a Libertarian 7 years or so ago. He was telling me the Libertarian Party was pushing hard to build power in the Republican Party. They were tired of business as usual. They see the Democrats as a bunch of anti-American, anti-Constitution tyrants who want to exert massive control of them by taxing them into poverty, taking away their religion, and the like. Democrats like Cortez and her squad just make their nightmares seem true.

I have little doubt had Trump called for it on January 6th, Republican crazies like Taylor-Greene would have started executing Democratic Congress members to support Trump.

They want a revolution to move this country back to its Constitutional origins. To them the Democrats are the enemy seeking to take away their liberty, dismantle the Constitution, and put in its place some leftist document allowing extreme social control like Australia, Canada, or New Zealand where you don't have any protected rights as the mob can take them away at any point in time.

They chose Trump to support because he is not business as usual. But he wasn't the war leader they were looking for thankfully.

Be glad Trump didn't cross the line. He had the chance to really call for violence like we haven't seen in America since the Civil War. He must have had enough sensible people in the room to talk down the crazies like Flynn and Navarro. That January 6th riot was a real eye opener for me. It was another example that the Libertarian Movement has come a long way infiltrating the Republican Party to get Libertarians in power and buck the system they are trying to take down to restore a Constitutional Republic based on individual rights.

[Hawktawk]

Balderdash . Fascists run the Republican Party .

[Aseahawkfan]

Balderdash . Fascists run the Republican Party .

You don't even know what a Constitutional Republic is any more do you?

You don't even know who you're fighting any more. You won't figure it out because you're focused on Trump, while the Libertarians are focused on something else.

We'll see buddy. I see Libertarian written all over the Trump Presidency. They certainly don't want fascism in the nation. They certainly do want a Civil War against the Democrats. They view the Democrats as pro big government tyrants. They hate them as well as what they call the Neocons like Bush as much as you hate Trump. They been looking to take them down for years.

I think you will see more of them taking more power in the Republican Party in future years even as Trump fades into the past.

[Hawktawk]

You don't even know what a Constitutional Republic is any more do you?

You don't even know who you're fighting any more. You won't figure it out because you're focused on Trump, while the Libertarians are focused on something else.

We'll see buddy. I see Libertarian written all over the Trump Presidency. They certainly don't want fascism in the nation. They certainly do want a Civil War against the Democrats. They view the Democrats as pro big government tyrants. They hate them as well as what they call the Neocons like Bush as much as you hate Trump. They been looking to take them down for years.

I think you will see more of them taking more power in the Republican Party in future years even as Trump fades into the past.

I voted libertarian in 2016 for Gary Johnson and I’ll go to my grave believing he was the best choice and would have been an excellent president . But he got 4 % . The racists and fascists and some good people with nowhere else to go support trump . Except now he’s pro vax and they hate him . It’s a bizarre phenomenon . He created the cult but they punish him if he steps out of line . The people supporting the cult Trump started aren’t libertarians .