Sleepy Joe Cuts the Cheese

[RiverDog]

Your points for disliking Mr. Trumps character/demeanor is spot on...narcissism is a strong by-product of wealth and power sadly and his responses paled in presidential decorum. I really think Mr. Trump was just as surprised at winning the white house. He is a wealthy man who doesn't shrink from enjoying the limelight so he had name recognition...no political background...and the wealth to reach the results. He was not a true Republican but his "business acumen" allowed him to realize that instead of running as a doomed 3rd party...he would get better opportunity running as a Republican.

As far as being delayed/prompted to implementing wartime production...it happened and lives were saved because of it. The deaths attributed to his responsibility as our president are numbered by tragic deaths...the number saved? ...unable to attribute real numbers to vaccine streamlining or wartime production act use. A president bears the burden of losing citizens/saving others equally... which is why entering a war that puts troops on the ground or quickly removing them should never be done hastily.

One thing that I will point out about Trump's wealth is that in 2016, Hillary spent almost twice as much as Trump, $1.19 billion to Trump's $647 million. 2020 was a lot closer, with Trump out spending Biden by about 17%. But you're right, it was unquestionably Trump's wealth, and nothing else, that put him in position to run for the presidency.

I'm not suggesting that Trump. or any other POTUS, is directly and criminally responsible for human deaths and you're right, it's impossible to quantify just how many lives could have been saved had he acted differently. But I think it's pretty clear that his failure to act early on in the crisis and his subsequent behavior resulted in an avoidable loss of life. If I were grading him on his response to the pandemic, I'd give him a D, the vaccine development and inital roll-out being about his only saving grace. We have to remember that he once characterized the virus as a Democratic hoax meant to embarrass him. It's his outlandish, off the cuff remarks, tweets, et al that, in my opinion, was the genesis of the misinformation campaigns that has been the biggest hurdle we've had to clear in getting the pandemic under control. His response to the pandemic is arguably the biggest reason why he got voted out of office.

You raised election security as an issue, and I think we're pretty close to agreeing on the subject. IMO there should be more regulation on voter registration, although it needs to be done in a manner so that doesn't create an unreasonable obstacle. So long as no one has to spend a dime for it, I would like to see a government photo ID be established as a requirement to register and vote. I don't agree with sending out unrequested absentee ballots/vote by mail, and I think that all voters should have to identify themselves at the polls. It used to be that I didn't like vote by mail, but I've moved a bit on the subject, especially during the pandemic. I'd like to get the USPS out of the loop, at least as far as returning completed ballots. Don't let the fox guard the chicken coop.

It's these flaws in our voting system that has made it possible for Trump to make these fraudulent claims stick with so many people. They need to re-establish confidence in the process.

[tarlhawk]

You raised election security as an issue, and I think we're pretty close to agreeing on the subject. IMO there should be more regulation on voter registration, although it needs to be done in a manner so that doesn't create an unreasonable obstacle. So long as no one has to spend a dime for it, I would like to see a government photo ID be established as a requirement to register and vote. I don't agree with sending out unrequested absentee ballots/vote by mail, and I think that all voters should have to identify themselves at the polls. It used to be that I didn't like vote by mail, but I've moved a bit on the subject, especially during the pandemic. I'd like to get the USPS out of the loop, at least as far as returning completed ballots. Don't let the fox guard the chicken coop.
It's these flaws in our voting system that has made it possible for Trump to make these fraudulent claims stick with so many people. They need to re-establish confidence in the process.

The real issue is the one you agreed with...the need to re-establish voter confidence in the process itself. Hire enough people to actually count ballots delivered. Create ballots that have no ambiguity...a nationally accepted approval for all state ballots. The ability to use "absentee mail-in ballots" needs to be re-studied to add an element of verification to validate only people carrying correct registration can "drop off" ballots...not Joe Blow dropping off 50 ballots at a time "as a favor" to those not wanting to make that trip.

If a citizen is physically unable to visit the ballot box then have a certified collector pick up from those disabled. These efforts to correct/minimize the possibility of fraud will be opposed by those claiming voter oppression..."every correctly registered vote must count" not every vote must count. No more acceptance of unexplained votes/ballots found after closing of the polls...no more artificial "holding of the polls opened". Integrity of the process needs hard fast laws...with fines appropriate for a federal violation...tampering with USPS mail is a federal offense...registered ballots should be likewise.

[RiverDog]

The real issue is the one you agreed with...the need to re-establish voter confidence in the process itself. Hire enough people to actually count ballots delivered. Create ballots that have no ambiguity...a nationally accepted approval for all state ballots. The ability to use "absentee mail-in ballots" needs to be re-studied to add an element of verification to validate only people carrying correct registration can "drop off" ballots...not Joe Blow dropping off 50 ballots at a time "as a favor" to those not wanting to make that trip.

If a citizen is physically unable to visit the ballot box then have a certified collector pick up from those disabled. These efforts to correct/minimize the possibility of fraud will be opposed by those claiming voter oppression..."every correctly registered vote must count" not every vote must count. No more acceptance of unexplained votes/ballots found after closing of the polls...no more artificial "holding of the polls opened". Integrity of the process needs hard fast laws...with fines appropriate for a federal violation...tampering with USPS mail is a federal offense...registered ballots should be likewise.

I'm not sure of the necessity of a collector picking up ballots. Most people have friends, relatives, or care givers, people they can trust, that can drop them off for them. I haven't heard of it being an issue, so if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

I'd like to keep the human element out of the actual counting process except to verify the accuracy of the equipment. Only if there's a close enough election should there be an actual manual counting of the ballots. I actually liked the old, gear driven mechanical voting machines that I voted on until they started using mail in ballots. Those are almost impossible to compromise and very easy to validate. In all the years they've been in use, I've never heard of a complaint about them.

The one thing I like about mail in ballots is that you can confirm that they've received and counted your vote although, understandably, you can't see how you voted. No way in hell do I ever want to see us go to electronic voting.

I also think that there should be at least a small degree of personal sacrifice made by the voter in order to cast their ballot. I don't want to hear from the casual voter that votes according to a 15 second sound bite or a bumper sticker they saw on their best friend's car. That was one of my main objections to mail in voting, that it makes voting too easy. But some of these Republican initiatives were absurd, like limiting drop off ballot box locations and not allowing poll workers to distribute water to voters standing in line. IMO if we're going to go to all mail in as we have in this state, the number of drop off locations should be increased. I see no reason why they can't be in places like inside a WalMart store where it's extremely visible and with plenty of security cameras.

Good discussion, glad you decided to engage us.

[I-5]

The real issue is the one you agreed with...the need to re-establish voter confidence in the process itself. Hire enough people to actually count ballots delivered. Create ballots that have no ambiguity...a nationally accepted approval for all state ballots. The ability to use "absentee mail-in ballots" needs to be re-studied to add an element of verification to validate only people carrying correct registration can "drop off" ballots...not Joe Blow dropping off 50 ballots at a time "as a favor" to those not wanting to make that trip.

Hey Tarlhawk, glad to see you here. Always good to get thoughtful opinions, and I'm open to learning from everone here. I think we can all agree that confidence in our elections is one of if not the most important things about our democracy. So here's my question; did you yourself or did you hear anyone express doubts about our ballot counting system in 2016 when Trump won? Why or why not? Thanks.

[tarlhawk]

Hey Tarlhawk, glad to see you here. Always good to get thoughtful opinions, and I'm open to learning from everone here. I think we can all agree that confidence in our elections is one of if not the most important things about our democracy. So here's my question; did you yourself or did you hear anyone express doubts about our ballot counting system in 2016 when Trump won? Why or why not? Thanks.

A good and fair question so I'll be honest with you...I did suspect the vulnerability of our voting process during the 2016 election. I was influenced in thinking that way while randomly channel surfing and finding an interesting take on CSPAN concerning these voting machines. They had procured a voting machine used during Mr. Obama's re-election in 2012 and had a man with basic computer skills ...no hacking background...see if he could access where the data was stored. He was able to access it after awhile and they discovered a discrepancy...the election data from that election was still contained in the machine. They said that once that election had been certified the voting machines should have been cleared of actual vote counts...yet the election data was still intact. I was wary of a flaw exposed by watching this particular show but only suspected Ms. Clinton would win for sure.

I don't vote for who is deemed to win but I am a conservative leaning voter. Character of the individual is important to me but my vote is based on who gets brought into one's cabinet...Do their ideas resonate with my own? Having served in the military I am fully aware of sensitive security material that needs classification for protection. When Hillary professed she was unaware of the need of not putting classified material on her personal computer...it only confirmed to me she was a security risk since personal integrity is relied upon to safeguard classified information. I suspect many politicians compromise their own integrity via "white lies" but they should be more careful in assuming the public at large can be so easily duped when those lies get exposed.

I went to bed on election night not knowing its projected outcome but still sad thinking Hillary would win. When I awoke to find Mr. Trump had won I was surprised but very pleased that Ms. Clinton had not won. I have my own dark suspicions concerning the Democratic party for a variety of reasons I won't go into...but you are right...because the outcome was one I was thankful for...I didn't suspect voting fraud as a possibility. If I'm honest about suspecting the surprising results of Mr. Bidens election (landslide victories are usually representative of an obvious popular presidential candidate and I had no feeling that Mr.Biden had a chance). Mr.Trumps victory was equally surprising in hindsight so I would rather the voting process leave no room for such doubts...I respect the authority of the presidential office regardless of "if my guy/gal won" so I am looking forward to the 2024 elections and hoping my faith in our democracy is restored by whoever wins...I make every effort to vote as a registered voter.

[RiverDog]

A good and fair question so I'll be honest with you...I did suspect the vulnerability of our voting process during the 2016 election. I was influenced in thinking that way while randomly channel surfing and finding an interesting take on CSPAN concerning these voting machines. They had procured a voting machine used during Mr. Obama's re-election in 2012 and had a man with basic computer skills ...no hacking background...see if he could access where the data was stored. He was able to access it after awhile and they discovered a discrepancy...the election data from that election was still contained in the machine. They said that once that election had been certified the voting machines should have been cleared of actual vote counts...yet the election data was still intact. I was wary of a flaw exposed by watching this particular show but only suspected Ms. Clinton would win for sure.

I don't know a lot about voting machine technology, but that story sounds very fishy. You would think that there would be some sort of fail safe to keep such a silly mistake from happening. Additionally, would not the total votes cast be about half of what the combined Romney/Obama total shown by the machine? That story makes no sense to me. Besides, not that we shouldn't improve/fix our voting system, but these past two elections weren't all that close.

I don't vote for who is deemed to win but I am a conservative leaning voter. Character of the individual is important to me but my vote is based on who gets brought into one's cabinet...Do their ideas resonate with my own? Having served in the military I am fully aware of sensitive security material that needs classification for protection. When Hillary professed she was unaware of the need of not putting classified material on her personal computer...it only confirmed to me she was a security risk since personal integrity is relied upon to safeguard classified information. I suspect many politicians compromise their own integrity via "white lies" but they should be more careful in assuming the public at large can be so easily duped when those lies get exposed.

I went to bed on election night not knowing its projected outcome but still sad thinking Hillary would win. When I awoke to find Mr. Trump had won I was surprised but very pleased that Ms. Clinton had not won. I have my own dark suspicions concerning the Democratic party for a variety of reasons I won't go into...but you are right...because the outcome was one I was thankful for...I didn't suspect voting fraud as a possibility. If I'm honest about suspecting the surprising results of Mr. Bidens election (landslide victories are usually representative of an obvious popular presidential candidate and I had no feeling that Mr.Biden had a chance). Mr.Trumps victory was equally surprising in hindsight so I would rather the voting process leave no room for such doubts...I respect the authority of the presidential office regardless of "if my guy/gal won" so I am looking forward to the 2024 elections and hoping my faith in our democracy is restored by whoever wins...I make every effort to vote as a registered voter.

I despised Hillary as well and that incident that you referred to was one of the big reasons that she turned me off. She wasn't trustworthy. But I damn sure wasn't going to vote for Trump, either, for all of the personality flaws I discussed earlier. It was the worst two choices we've been given since I started voting in 1972, so I cast my vote for Gary Johnson, a former Republican governor of NM running as the Libertarian candidate. FYI Biden was the first Dem I voted for in a Presidential general election, and so long as the Republicans don't nominate Trump or a Trump clone, he could be the last.

[I-5]

I went to bed on election night not knowing its projected outcome but still sad thinking Hillary would win. When I awoke to find Mr. Trump had won I was surprised but very pleased that Ms. Clinton had not won. I have my own dark suspicions concerning the Democratic party for a variety of reasons I won't go into...but you are right...because the outcome was one I was thankful for...I didn't suspect voting fraud as a possibility. If I'm honest about suspecting the surprising results of Mr. Bidens election (landslide victories are usually representative of an obvious popular presidential candidate and I had no feeling that Mr.Biden had a chance). Mr.Trumps victory was equally surprising in hindsight so I would rather the voting process leave no room for such doubts...I respect the authority of the presidential office regardless of "if my guy/gal won" so I am looking forward to the 2024 elections and hoping my faith in our democracy is restored by whoever wins...I make every effort to vote as a registered voter.

Thanks for your honesty. It's what I thought...when your candidate whens, you don't suspect fraud. When your candidate loses, maybe something is fishy. I will be honest and tell you that although I was opposed to Trump, and made a number of social media posts on election night 2016, none of my posts hinted at any possibility of fraud even though my candidate lost (I didn't love Hillary but that was the lesser of two bad choices in my view). I still believe in our system no matter who wins or loses. If you don't agree, I want to see hard evidence to the contrary, not hearsay.

[RiverDog]

I went to bed on election night not knowing its projected outcome but still sad thinking Hillary would win. When I awoke to find Mr. Trump had won I was surprised but very pleased that Ms. Clinton had not won. I have my own dark suspicions concerning the Democratic party for a variety of reasons I won't go into...but you are right...because the outcome was one I was thankful for...I didn't suspect voting fraud as a possibility. If I'm honest about suspecting the surprising results of Mr. Bidens election (landslide victories are usually representative of an obvious popular presidential candidate and I had no feeling that Mr.Biden had a chance). Mr.Trumps victory was equally surprising in hindsight so I would rather the voting process leave no room for such doubts...I respect the authority of the presidential office regardless of "if my guy/gal won" so I am looking forward to the 2024 elections and hoping my faith in our democracy is restored by whoever wins...I make every effort to vote as a registered voter.

Thanks for your honesty. It's what I thought...when your candidate whens, you don't suspect fraud. When your candidate loses, maybe something is fishy. I will be honest and tell you that although I was opposed to Trump, and made a number of social media posts on election night 2016, none of my posts hinted at any possibility of fraud even though my candidate lost (I didn't love Hillary but that was the lesser of two bad choices in my view). I still believe in our system no matter who wins or loses. If you don't agree, I want to see hard evidence to the contrary, not hearsay.

You don't need hard evidence of fraud in order to harbor suspicions. There's been numerous incidents of voter fraud in the past long before Trump. The major goal of election reform would be to restore confidence in the integrity of the system. Like it or not or blame whoever you want, there's a ton of mistrust in our process and simply not doing anything because there's no hard evidence of fraud isn't going to cut it.

I've felt for decades that there needs to be a better system of validating a voter's qualifications and I don't see what's so bad about a voter ID requirement so long as it's cost free and relatively easy to acquire. Many nursing home residents, for example, don't have enough money to see the dentist and asking them to spend $50 for an ID that would serve no other purpose than allow them to vote would be restrictive. So would making them go to the DMV and sit in a folding chair for an hour to get one. We require a government issued photo ID to board an airplane or buy a 6 pack of beer, not sure why we wouldn't require one for voting.

I also don't like automatically sending out ballots by mail. If we're going to depend so heavily on vote by mail, there needs to be some sort of process that validates a voter's registration status and current mailing address before they send out a ballot and that they still want one. I'd also like to get the USPS out of the loop, at least as far as returning completed ballots.

Trump didn't sow the seeds of mistrust in our electoral process, he just fertilized them. A good start to healing the divisions would be to find some sort of common ground on election security.

[Hawktawk]

Your points for disliking Mr. Trumps character/demeanor is spot on...narcissism is a strong by-product of wealth and power sadly and his responses paled in presidential decorum. I really think Mr. Trump was just as surprised at winning the white house. He is a wealthy man who doesn't shrink from enjoying the limelight so he had name recognition...no political background...and the wealth to reach the results. He was not a true Republican but his "business acumen" allowed him to realize that instead of running as a doomed 3rd party...he would get better opportunity running as a Republican.

As far as being delayed/prompted to implementing wartime production...it happened and lives were saved because of it. The deaths attributed to his responsibility as our president are numbered by tragic deaths...the number saved? ...unable to attribute real numbers to vaccine streamlining or wartime production act use. A president bears the burden of losing citizens/saving others equally... which is why entering a war that puts troops on the ground or quickly removing them should never be done hastily.

Trump never fully activated the defense production act . Declared it but didn’t enforce it fully . He suggested at one point people should inject bleach or find some way to inject infrared light in their body . He was anti mask , anti science throughout . He held huge maskless rallies around the country as 3 k people a day were dying . And there is absolutely no evidence he was swindled in multiple red states . None . Deflecting about needing changes to make it more secure blah blah blah just contributes to the lie . By the rules in place in Nov Trump got smoked like a cheap joint . The American thing to do , the patriotic thing was concede . Instead we got a riot and people deflecting about “election security “. It’s evil . I take back none of my anger towards this evil man . He destroyed America in many ways that liberals never could or would. I detest him . I want the party of Lincoln and Reagan back and it’s not gonna happen as long as this pos is wasting oxygen .

[I-5]

You don't need hard evidence of fraud in order to harbor suspicions.

Is there even soft evidence or any evidence at all looking at the totality that makes you doubt ballot results? Gerrymandering and re-districting aside, I see no reason to doubt our system. Its the best in the world still in my opinion. Even when my candidate loses.

[Aseahawkfan]

When I read these responses, I still just see a complete cluelessness to how bad the Democrat platform is. Trump was elected based on a vision of America as a great country that the Democrats are tearing down piece by piece. Democrat voters refuse to see the Democratic Party doing just this from major Democratic supporters tearing down The Founders of the nation even while some Democrats are still using their names when convenient with no acknowledgment that prominent Democrats like Cortez and her Squad hate The Founders of America and a huge segment of their party tear at the Constitution and The Founders of the nation due to the treatment of minority groups in this nation. This is very jarring and anti-American to Americans of European descent who culturally have been taught to love America and see it as a great nation.

The push for constant taxation by the Democrats in a nation literally founded with the words "No taxation without representation" while Democrat politicians push through taxes unpopular with the majority using backdoor legislation that in essence punishes wealth building even though many Americans from a young age are taught to build up wealth. This is done under the idea the government will take the money and redistribute it effectively to elevate people out of poverty when they have never been able to do this before. All the government normally creates is subsistence level living.

The Democratic platform has so many terrible ideas badly sold that it is no wonder when a man like Trump wins all the Democrats can do is call all those who voted for him bigots and racists and stupid. And once again you have another situation where the Democrats clearly show their polices are bad and they don't understand why an enormous portion of the nation is against their rotten policies. If the Democrats weren't able to sell minorities on racism, they would lose that vote as well given how bad their other economic policies are.

They just keep on refusing to see their bad policies and rhetoric. I imagine they'll keep doing it as long as they can hold on to the female and minority vote by selling them on racism and sexism with the white male as the enemy until some Republican comes along who can finally break through their racism/sexism wall of defense that keeps enough votes going Democrat that Democratic voters overlook their other terrible policies. Smarmy liberals can just keep on calling Republican voters stupid, racist, and the like and hoping that somehow works to keep the independent voters coming back to them.

I tend to vote Republican mostly on economic issues. I 100% do not believe that I should have to shell out money to pay for people making bad monetary decisions when I make good monetary decisions. I am not a rich person. I was not raised by rich people. I made a lot of personal decisions not to engage in the rotten behavior of the people I see around me like drug abuse, constantly consuming beyond what I can afford, and not investing my money and spending it on vice like cigarettes and alcohol. I see a tremendous amount of bad money management from the so called poor and working class that is mostly self-inflicted. I feel like the government should allow the consequences of bad life management be suffered by everything from banks who make bad decisions during a housing crisis to regular people who think getting drunk and high all the time is a smart way to live.

I did not vote for Trump because he is not a real Republican. Unlike most of you, I know Trump is not dumb at all. Trump is an intelligent businessman who views the general public in the same way a salesman views people he sells to. He thinks he can take whatever idea they are most interested in and sell them that he can fix it even if he doesn't even care if he is going to fix it. Trump went into office to get lower taxes for companies as that directly benefits him and his friends. Getting to tell Democrats and all his political opponents to F off was just an added bonus. He didn't care if you were Democrat or Republican as Trump is not in any way loyal to the Republican Party or its ideas. Trump is loyal to Trump. As long as he can manipulate the masses to do what he wants them to do, then he's happy to pretend to be whatever anyone listening wants him to be. Trump has no solid values other than win and make money.

That's why I don't worry about him doing a coup. He doesn't have the military or political experience or connections to launch a coup. Just a strong enough mouthpiece to wind easily manipulated people up to do his bidding. Trump's only real goal was to win two terms, prove he's as good as any other other president, then sell his followers he was a great president, then likely write some books, build the Trump brand bigger and stronger, and make more money and fuel his narcissism even more.

As far as Trump being dumb, he's far from it. He understands how to manipulate the masses better than most. He's been doing it for years. He understands how debt, taxes, and money works. He employs many highly capable and intelligent people to let him know if what he's doing is working.

As far as having a erudite conversation with Trump on history or any of that stuff, he doesn't care about it. He cares about marketing, polls, sales, media ratings and engagement, and things that regular people don't even comprehend or understand that allows him to obtain his goals of winning the presidency, selling people he's getting things done, while his real goals are power and money for himself, his companies, and his associates who helped put him in office.

Trump is good at accomplishing his goals. If not for the corona virus, he would probably be riding out a second term not giving a crap what anyone had to say at this point. Just racking up dollars. If he runs again, it will be for pure ego. He'll make sure to get a good read on his chances for winning. If they look good, he'll run. If they look bad, probably not.

I won't vote for him in another election either because I despise getting manipulated by salesman who barley believe what they're selling. It's unfortunately that a man with such a powerful ability to sell is so venal, narcissistic, and self-centered. He probably could have done a lot of good with his salesman skills if he actually cared about anyone other than himself. Then again this entire political system currently lends itself to that kind of thinking, so it's no wonder someone like Trump would look at the Bush's and Pelosi's of the world and decide he wants some of their power to benefit himself.

[I-5]

When I read these responses, I still just see a complete cluelessness to how bad the Democrat platform is. Trump was elected based on a vision of America as a great country that the Democrats are tearing down piece by piece. Democrat voters refuse to see the Democratic Party doing just this from major Democratic supporters tearing down The Founders of the nation even while some Democrats are still using their names when convenient with no acknowledgment that prominent Democrats like Cortez and her Squad hate The Founders of America and a huge segment of their party tear at the Constitution and The Founders of the nation due to the treatment of minority groups in this nation. This is very jarring and anti-American to Americans of European descent who culturally have been taught to love America and see it as a great nation.

The push for constant taxation by the Democrats in a nation literally founded with the words "No taxation without representation" while Democrat politicians push through taxes unpopular with the majority using backdoor legislation that in essence punishes wealth building even though many Americans from a young age are taught to build up wealth. This is done under the idea the government will take the money and redistribute it effectively to elevate people out of poverty when they have never been able to do this before. All the government normally creates is subsistence level living.

The Democratic platform has so many terrible ideas badly sold that it is no wonder when a man like Trump wins all the Democrats can do is call all those who voted for him bigots and racists and stupid. And once again you have another situation where the Democrats clearly show their polices are bad and they don't understand why an enormous portion of the nation is against their rotten policies. If the Democrats weren't able to sell minorities on racism, they would lose that vote as well given how bad their other economic policies are.

They just keep on refusing to see their bad policies and rhetoric. I imagine they'll keep doing it as long as they can hold on to the female and minority vote by selling them on racism and sexism with the white male as the enemy until some Republican comes along who can finally break through their racism/sexism wall of defense that keeps enough votes going Democrat that Democratic voters overlook their other terrible policies. Smarmy liberals can just keep on calling Republican voters stupid, racist, and the like and hoping that somehow works to keep the independent voters coming back to them.

I tend to vote Republican mostly on economic issues. I 100% do not believe that I should have to shell out money to pay for people making bad monetary decisions when I make good monetary decisions. I am not a rich person. I was not raised by rich people. I made a lot of personal decisions not to engage in the rotten behavior of the people I see around me like drug abuse, constantly consuming beyond what I can afford, and not investing my money and spending it on vice like cigarettes and alcohol. I see a tremendous amount of bad money management from the so called poor and working class that is mostly self-inflicted. I feel like the government should allow the consequences of bad life management be suffered by everything from banks who make bad decisions during a housing crisis to regular people who think getting drunk and high all the time is a smart way to live.

I did not vote for Trump because he is not a real Republican. Unlike most of you, I know Trump is not dumb at all. Trump is an intelligent businessman who views the general public in the same way a salesman views people he sells to. He thinks he can take whatever idea they are most interested in and sell them that he can fix it even if he doesn't even care if he is going to fix it. Trump went into office to get lower taxes for companies as that directly benefits him and his friends. Getting to tell Democrats and all his political opponents to F off was just an added bonus. He didn't care if you were Democrat or Republican as Trump is not in any way loyal to the Republican Party or its ideas. Trump is loyal to Trump. As long as he can manipulate the masses to do what he wants them to do, then he's happy to pretend to be whatever anyone listening wants him to be. Trump has no solid values other than win and make money.

That's why I don't worry about him doing a coup. He doesn't have the military or political experience or connections to launch a coup. Just a strong enough mouthpiece to wind easily manipulated people up to do his bidding. Trump's only real goal was to win two terms, prove he's as good as any other other president, then sell his followers he was a great president, then likely write some books, build the Trump brand bigger and stronger, and make more money and fuel his narcissism even more.

As far as Trump being dumb, he's far from it. He understands how to manipulate the masses better than most. He's been doing it for years. He understands how debt, taxes, and money works. He employs many highly capable and intelligent people to let him know if what he's doing is working.

As far as having a erudite conversation with Trump on history or any of that stuff, he doesn't care about it. He cares about marketing, polls, sales, media ratings and engagement, and things that regular people don't even comprehend or understand that allows him to obtain his goals of winning the presidency, selling people he's getting things done, while his real goals are power and money for himself, his companies, and his associates who helped put him in office.

Trump is good at accomplishing his goals. If not for the corona virus, he would probably be riding out a second term not giving a crap what anyone had to say at this point. Just racking up dollars. If he runs again, it will be for pure ego. He'll make sure to get a good read on his chances for winning. If they look good, he'll run. If they look bad, probably not.

I won't vote for him in another election either because I despise getting manipulated by salesman who barley believe what they're selling. It's unfortunately that a man with such a powerful ability to sell is so venal, narcissistic, and self-centered. He probably could have done a lot of good with his salesman skills if he actually cared about anyone other than himself. Then again this entire political system currently lends itself to that kind of thinking, so it's no wonder someone like Trump would look at the Bush's and Pelosi's of the world and decide he wants some of their power to benefit himself.

He is smart like a good car salesman or mob boss is smart, I will definitely give you that. In fact, in those terms, he might be the smartest of all time. But in terms of actual leadership skills, governance, or basic handling of intelligent conversation, he is definitely not smart in the least. My opinion.

[RiverDog]

You don't need hard evidence of fraud in order to harbor suspicions.

Is there even soft evidence or any evidence at all looking at the totality that makes you doubt ballot results? Gerrymandering and re-districting aside, I see no reason to doubt our system. Its the best in the world still in my opinion. Even when my candidate loses.

To answer your question, no. I don't doubt any of the ballot results. This election, and actually the one before it, wasn't close enough to where a problem with election security would have impacted the outcome of the election. But that wasn't my point.

I have a friend that has never locked the doors to his house. His logic is that in his 60+ years of living in his own residence, he's never had his house robbed. That's a little bit like what people are telling me. Since there is no evidence of voter fraud that others concerned about election security are unjustified, that I shouldn't worry about locking the doors because there's never been a robbery. If it's not broke, don't fix it.

And the fact that it may be the best system in the world is not a reason to justify inaction, either. Even the best system in the world can be improved and made more secure. Besides, that's not the main motivation for improving election security. It's restoring confidence in the system, making it more secure without disenfranchising anyone.

In 2016, Democrats and liberals wailed like a squished pig when Trump won, with their nominee blaming her loss in part on the Russians undermining our electoral system. But now that their candidate won, suddenly everything is hunky dory, and people like you are trumpeting our system as being the best in the world.

[RiverDog]

As far as Trump being dumb, he's far from it. He understands how to manipulate the masses better than most. He's been doing it for years. He understands how debt, taxes, and money works. He employs many highly capable and intelligent people to let him know if what he's doing is working.

I guess it depends on how you define intelligence. Mine includes knowing which states share a border with Mexico. IMO it's pretty hard to argue that Trump is an intelligent man when in a pre-planned meeting with the Prime Minister of India he tells him that at least he doesn't have to worry about China being on their border. Trump's history lessons are truly laughable, how Andrew Jackson didn't like the Civil War or how the Revolutionary Army stormed airports. I truly believe that if we gave Trump the same test that we give immigrants seeking to become naturalized citizens that he'd fail. Now wouldn't that be something!

Trump might have good business instincts and a knack for being at the right place at the right time, but that is NOT synonymous with intelligence. After all, Forrest Gump made a fortune in the shrimping business, did he not?

[I-5]

Trump might have good business instincts and a knack for being at the right place at the right time, but that is NOT synonymous with intelligence. After all, Forrest Gump made a fortune in the shrimping business, did he not?

Actually, Riv, based on his multiple bankruptcies, I think his talent is more about how to turn his business failures into a profit for himself at others expense. So many examples, but one that comes to mind is the Trump Casino in Atlantic City. He took it to bankruptcy court 4 times, shifted his personal debt to the casino, took out loans at extremely high interest rates, then took it public and left investors and bond holders with a $1.5B loss, all while paying himself lavishly (if not illegally). All he remembers about that episode now is how well he personally did, which is really all that matters to him. I guess someone can say that is smart, but it doesn't benefit anyone except himself - how anyone thinks that would make him a good leader is something else. Incidentally, his was the only casino that was failing, as all the other casinos in Atlantic City were doing great at the same time.

[I-5]

In 2016, Democrats and liberals wailed like a squished pig when Trump won, with their nominee blaming her loss in part on the Russians undermining our electoral system. But now that their candidate won, suddenly everything is hunky dory, and people like you are trumpeting our system as being the best in the world.

Riv, I don't remember any complaints about actual ballots in 2016. Do you? The only issue raised in 2016 was how Russia or russian-backed groups used social media to spread fake news, which is definitely a huge problem and one we're still dealing with today. Not ballots.

[RiverDog]

In 2016, Democrats and liberals wailed like a squished pig when Trump won, with their nominee blaming her loss in part on the Russians undermining our electoral system. But now that their candidate won, suddenly everything is hunky dory, and people like you are trumpeting our system as being the best in the world.

Riv, I don't remember any complaints about actual ballots in 2016. Do you? The only issue raised in 2016 was how Russia or russian-backed groups used social media to spread fake news, which is definitely a huge problem and one we're still dealing with today. Not ballots.

I don't see the difference between 'actual ballots' and other aspects of election security that has the potential of affecting the outcome.

[I-5]

I don't see the difference between 'actual ballots' and other aspects of election security that has the potential of affecting the outcome.

They’re both harmful, but they are very very different things.

[Hawktawk]

In 2016, Democrats and liberals wailed like a squished pig when Trump won, with their nominee blaming her loss in part on the Russians undermining our electoral system. But now that their candidate won, suddenly everything is hunky dory, and people like you are trumpeting our system as being the best in the world.

I'm a conservative and former rock solid republican who wailed about Russia obvious interference in 2016 with the willing participation of Trump. You go read the 1K page intelligence committee report written by republicans that was snuck out on a Covid Friday in early 2020 detailing over 240 clandestine contacts between trump and Russia pre election. The Campaign manager of record Paul Manafort was described as "an extreme national security threat " by this republican led committee during the time of the republican's convention when the " extreme national security threat" got Trump over the top for his nomination.

Can we can stfu about the Russia hoax witch hunt? I believe the Mueller report in its entirety and would love to see the pages of redactions. I believe in the meat and bones of the Steele dossier Including the horrific allegations of blackmail via Russian hookers.2016 was extreme interference.

I dont blame it for her loss necessarily, I think that's unknowable. She ran a terrible campaign and was Trumps only chance with all the help Vlad could give him as his propaganda reached an estimated 240 million Americans. But I know our greatest geopolitical foe clearly favored Trump and for 4 years he rewarded them which is kind of how we got here with 150 K of them on the border of Ukraine.
2020 on the another hand was as Cyber Rockstar intelligence ace republican appointee Chris Krebs said "It was the most secure election in history". He was fired. Slob Steve Bannon said his "head should be on a pike" Brad Reffensburger etc. Republican party officials standing up for their results and being threatened by the president of the US!!! Imagine any other corrupt politician who picked up the phone and asked a Sec of state to "find" a specific number of votes. He should be in the federal penitentiary right now. People getting death threats. A riot killing a cop and injuring 140 other and now we know even little Donnie Jr was pleading for Meadows to get his daddy to plead with the goons' to stop.
I dont want to hear any deflections about voting rights and voting security in the context of Trumps loser loss and his inability to deal with and accept reality. Now isn't the time to deflect to rules that were fine while republicans won but suddenly they lost and now everything has to change.

I completely disagree I have some god damn civic duty to go to some school or firehouse to do my voting. Its 2021 and the easier it is for people to express their opinions about candidates the better without 4 dollar gas and being around a bunch of unmasked unvaxxed people some who will be menacing and armed these day . What if they cant drive? What if they fear crowds? Its just another poll tax when vote from home options exist.Id favor a 100% vote at home.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics ... i=BB141NW3
There may be some hope for the R party when you look at this poll 3 years out. Ive said for 5 years hes the Democrats only hope. Ditch the Cheeto or shut up about the liberal Dems. They have power because they were "not Trump" remove the tumor.

[RiverDog]

I don't see the difference between 'actual ballots' and other aspects of election security that has the potential of affecting the outcome.

They’re both harmful, but they are very very different things.

So why is one more relevant than the other? I don't get why you are claiming that it was OK for Hillary and the Dems to complain about the 2016 election being stolen from her when there was no evidence of compromised ballots yet it's not OK for the Republicans to complain about validating ballots, ie voter ID, when likewise, there was no evidence of unqualified voters casting ballots in the 2020 election.

IMO both sides need to sit down and figure out what they can do to make our electoral process more secure while not disenfranchising anyone that's eligible to vote and to as much as possible, restore confidence in our system. It would be such an easy thing to fix, yet these ass clowns couldn't agree on where to have lunch.

[Hawktawk]

Hillary may be saying the election was stolen but she’s not saying ballots were changed . Frankly she should Stfu. Now she’s reading her victory speech she didn’t give . Good lord . But no question Putin did everything in his power . And it was established that Manafort, his lackey Rick Gates and Kushner met a Russian agent and exchanged precinct by precinct data in battleground states. It was not determined the reason . It’s not deniable a Russia influence on Trumps behalf in both 16 and 20 according to FBI director Chris Wray .
20? No evidence of fraud by democrats . In context of the response of Trump and his supporters election reform and election security is a foil, a straw man , a red herring to distract from treason . Election security needs to start with holding people who incited a riot accountable .

[I-5]

o why is one more relevant than the other? I don't get why you are claiming that it was OK for Hillary and the Dems to complain about the 2016 election being stolen from her when there was no evidence of compromised ballots yet it's not OK for the Republicans to complain about validating ballots, ie voter ID, when likewise, there was no evidence of unqualified voters casting ballots in the 2020 election.

Whoa, slow down Riv. Did I say one was more important or relevant ever? I only said they are very different, and that both are harmful.

I never heard of compromised ballots in 2016 - did you? Maybe I missed it, but I was strictly talking about Russian backed disinformation campaigns, which is happening even now. Its quite well-documented if you want to see examples.

Republicans can continue complaining about stolen elections. It doesnt bother me, so why would I not be ok with it? Unless someone can show evidence of fraud that can stand up im court, its their prerogative to use their time however they want.

[c_hawkbob]

I don't see the difference between 'actual ballots' and other aspects of election security that has the potential of affecting the outcome.

The very big difference is not the terminology or who either party says did what to win, lose or steal an election, the difference is in action taken. Every one else, from Henry Clay losing to John Adams, Samuel Tilden losing to Rutherford B. Hayes, Nixon losing to Kennedy, Gore losing to Bush and Hillary losing to Trump, raised plenty of stink in the papers/TV/Internet (whatever media was available) but in the end they all respected the process and accepted the voice of the people.

I don't care what anyone says about who else did what, no one tried to mount a violent insurrection to invalidate the results of the election! Until 45. Worst. President. Ever.

[RiverDog]

The very big difference is not the terminology or who either party says did what to win, lose or steal an election, the difference is in action taken. Every one else, from Henry Clay losing to John Adams, Samuel Tilden losing to Rutherford B. Hayes, Nixon losing to Kennedy, Gore losing to Bush and Hillary losing to Trump, raised plenty of stink in the papers/TV/Internet (whatever media was available) but in the end they all respected the process and accepted the voice of the people.

I don't care what anyone says about who else did what, no one tried to mount a violent insurrection to invalidate the results of the election! Until 45. Worst. President. Ever.

Of course, Trump's behavior in not accepting the results of the 2020 election was many times worse than Hillary's following her loss in 2016, but that wasn't my point. My point was that in the 2016, election security was a HUGE issue with Democrats, to the point that their nominee made no bones about blaming her loss on it. But now, all we hear from the Dems is this constant chant that "there's no evidence of fraud" rather than recognizing the fact that for whatever reason, a very large segment of the population has lost confidence in our electoral process.

[I-5]

Of course, Trump's behavior in not accepting the results of the 2020 election was many times worse than Hillary's following her loss in 2016, but that wasn't my point. My point was that in the 2016, election security was a HUGE issue with Democrats, to the point that their nominee made no bones about blaming her loss on it. But now, all we hear from the Dems is this constant chant that "there's no evidence of fraud" rather than recognizing the fact that for whatever reason, a very large segment of the population has lost confidence in our electoral process.

I think you lost me. What 'election security' issue are you talking about from 2016? As I said, I moved on with the election results starting Nov 9, 2016 (actually even the night of Nov 8).

Are you talking about claims of miscounted ballots or some other type of election fraud? I'm not aware of anything like that, but maybe I missed it.

[Hawktawk]

Hillary did nothing wrong after her loss. They had access to the Steele Dossier during the campaign but didn’t use it . When the clear interference on a never before seen scale to pump Trump , attack Hillary , suppress black voters , support Sanders and Jill Stein happened ? It’s estimated 230 million viewers saw some form of this . Hillary wasn’t happy but she didn’t demand a revote. She conceded at 1 AM election night when Michigan was called by a fraction of what Biden won by. She was a patriotic American . I’ll never forgive the democratic party for coronating her though . She shares much of the blame for Trump who shares all the blame for Biden and especially the Democratic Senate. Worst president ever . Worst thing that ever happened to the party of Lincoln and Reagan .

[RiverDog]

Of course, Trump's behavior in not accepting the results of the 2020 election was many times worse than Hillary's following her loss in 2016, but that wasn't my point. My point was that in the 2016, election security was a HUGE issue with Democrats, to the point that their nominee made no bones about blaming her loss on it. But now, all we hear from the Dems is this constant chant that "there's no evidence of fraud" rather than recognizing the fact that for whatever reason, a very large segment of the population has lost confidence in our electoral process.

I think you lost me. What 'election security' issue are you talking about from 2016?

The Russian are coming, the Russians are coming!

In her most frank remarks to date after her loss to President Trump, Democratic nominee Hillary Clinton said that if not for a controversial letter from FBI Director James Comey and Russian meddling in the election, she would be sitting in the Oval Office right now.

https://www.npr.org/2017/05/02/52658650 ... nd-herself

The Democratic nominee believes that there was enough of an election security issue in the 2016 election that it prevented her from winning. IMO that's a pretty serious indictment on the integrity of our electoral process, is it not?

[I-5]

Correct me if I’m wrong, but nothing about the FBI, Comey, letters, and Russians have anything to do with election security in the least. She’s talking about how public opinion was swayed by the timing of the release of those emails, which ironically amounted to nothing new. The person who decided to release the emails was Comey, which he has lived to admit he regretted. But that has nothing to do with the electoral system in any way. Meanwhile, its a year past and Trump is still barking.

[RiverDog]

Correct me if I’m wrong, but nothing about the FBI, Comey, letters, and Russians have anything to do with election security in the least. She’s talking about how public opinion was swayed by the timing of the release of those emails, which ironically amounted to nothing new. The person who decided to release the emails was Comey, which he has lived to admit he regretted. But that has nothing to do with the electoral system in any way. Meanwhile, its a year past and Trump is still barking.

The Russian meddling had nothing to do with election security? If that's true, then I guess Watergate didn't have anything to do with election security, either, as it basically involved the same thing.

The Russians may not have changed any actual votes, but they did penetrate voter information systems in at least 21 states, the Clinton campaign, the DNC's data base, the RNC's data base, and other aspects of the election. I do not see why you are seeking to view this topic in such a narrow fasion.

[Hawktawk]

It was a national security issue . An act of cyber warfare . With odd phenomenons like polls being right on the money except a few Rust belt states and the knowledge from Mueller and the senate report that Russian operatives were involved . These were military intelligence officers who hacked podestas E mail and leaked it 1 hour after the pussy grabber tape was released to the media . Compounding all this was a president as blackmailed as Steele said he was cowering before Putin and refusing to admit it happened . In Helsinki he threw Dan Coats and our intelligence community under the bus “ I have no reason to believe they did” responding to reporters questions with a beady eyed putin smirking at him . Must be a nasty video .

This was a national security issue . Treasonous IMO. Far different than the Cheeto party’s baseless claims about 2020.
But that old prune faced bat needs to stfu. Coney wrote a letter because as a man of integrity when you find Hillary’s Emails along with kiddie porn on Anthony Weiners computer you gotta look into it . He preferred her , hated Trump with good reason but men of integrity do their job . Hillary needs to go away . She lost the rust belt by a fraction but didn’t visit . She ran a lazy campaign. She called Republicans deplorable . She lost to Donald freaking Trump because she was a lazy unpopular candidate . Just go away

[I-5]

The Russian meddling had nothing to do with election security? If that's true, then I guess Watergate didn't have anything to do with election security, either, as it basically involved the same thing.

The Russians may not have changed any actual votes, but they did penetrate voter information systems in at least 21 states, the Clinton campaign, the DNC's data base, the RNC's data base, and other aspects of the election. I do not see why you are seeking to view this topic in such a narrow fasion.

Sure, if you want to argue it that way, then we are 1000% aligned that is a huge issue. The problem is, it's STILL happening now.

[Hawktawk]

https://www.newsweek.com/joe-biden-says ... 24-1662435
I know it was probably tongue in cheek and he qualified it by saying his health would dictate it. But this isn't helpful with democrats.

News flash Joe. Your health is a huge question right now, especially cognitive function. A strong majority of people think so. You are more unpopular at this point than anyone but Trump, you have flipped the independents by about by about 65% for to 70% against in a little over a year. Now Omicron and lets see. I sense a very rough time coming. Hopefully not. But I see very little enthusiasm for you running again and it will just hurt down ballot candidates even more. Announce you wont run after the midterm shellacking and let someone younger and more coherent run.

[NorthHawk]

Honest question here from outside the US.

Why isn't Biden more popular? I can see trumpites not wanting him to be President, but what's he doing wrong to lose such support?

[RiverDog]

Honest question here from outside the US.

Why isn't Biden more popular? I can see trumpites not wanting him to be President, but what's he doing wrong to lose such support?

The poll numbers you're seeing is job approval. Those don't necessarily equal loss of voting support. Put a ballot in front of people listing Donald Trump vs. Joe Biden if you want an accurate estimate of just how much support he's lost.

IMO Biden is getting low marks mainly due to the ongoing pandemic. It may not be fair to him as he it didn't start on his watch and he can't personally go around and jab 330 million people and bring an end to it, but whether or not it's fair, he owns the problem. As long as we're having to deal with mask and vaccination mandates, he's going to get low marks on his job performance.

There's other reasons, such as the Democrats/liberals embracing of such initiatives as defund the police, cancel culture, and so on that he's being linked to, but the biggie is the pandemic.

I don't know where my opinion fits in, but I voted for Biden for one reason and one reason only: His name was not Donald Trump. Had Trump not been running, it is very unlikely that Biden would have gotten my vote.

Jimmy Carter suffered a similar fate. He inherited a bad economy winding down after the Vietnam war, beset by an energy crisis and a spiraling cycle of rising inflation and interest rates that wasn't his fault. But the public held him accountable for it. Right, wrong, or indifferent, he owned it.

[Aseahawkfan]

Honest question here from outside the US.

Why isn't Biden more popular? I can see trumpites not wanting him to be President, but what's he doing wrong to lose such support?

We're in the middle of a huge culture war. We have been for some years. There is a non-zero chance we have a Civil War in America in the next 50 years if this continues. If Trump were a real military leader who had the support for a coup, we would have a Civil War right now. You would be watching America rip itself apart. We are one charismatic war leader away from a Civil War. Trump did not start it, he merely tapped into what was already there.

There are certain issues that the various sides cannot agree on. And these issues are extreme in regards to issues like gun rights, race, gender, religion, immigration, taxation, and government control.

Biden's approval rating is low because he's a Democrat pushing Democrat issues that aren't popular with Republicans and apparently aren't popular with independents. And some of his decisions aren't popular with the progressive left.

We have really weak and crazy leadership in America right now. Worst I've seen in my 50 years of life.

[RiverDog]

Honest question here from outside the US.

Why isn't Biden more popular? I can see trumpites not wanting him to be President, but what's he doing wrong to lose such support?

Here's an article that I think does a better job of describing what I was saying with regard to Biden's problems:

If there’s anything Joe Biden should have learned over the first year of his presidency, it’s that his attacks on Donald Trump’s management of the pandemic in 2020 were unfair.

As the White House struggles to cope with a new Covid wave that might eclipse prior waves in the sheer number of confirmed cases, there should be, in the quiet moments, reflection and regret about the over-the-top assaults Biden and other Democrats made on President Trump and Republican governors for allegedly letting the virus run rampant through pure callousness and neglect. In reality, the virus has proved again and again to work in ways that are out of the control of governments both red and blue.

Now, Biden’s own pledge to “shut down” the virus isn’t aging well. He assumed, not unreasonably, that the vaccines would crush cases, when they have proved a much better protection against severe illness than against getting the virus at all. But he also believed, erroneously, that bad intentions and poor policies from Trump on down were responsible for the widespread outbreak last year, and he assured Americans that, with a change at the top, normal life could be restored.

This was nonsense back in 2020, but partisan self-interest led Democrats and many in the media to believe in this stilted, all-too-convenient account. Now, with Covid variants continuing to wreak havoc, they should know better.

Indeed, if Biden were now to hold himself to the standards and metrics he set out during the campaign, he would stand exposed as a cold-blooded monster who has presided over what should be a presidency-destroying public-health debacle. As it happens, after all the scorn he heaped on Trump for his sunny scenarios, Biden, likewise, has been too rosy, only to see extensive spread and a high level of deaths on his watch.

It’s true that Biden has taken a different tone on Covid than Trump did, paid more lip service to the science and demonstrated different masking practices. And there are big policy differences between the two parties on Covid, especially around masks, mandates and lockdowns. But, as it turned out, none of these held the magic key to crushing the pandemic. In fact, the idea that we shouldn’t be locking down or shutting schools, positions that once were characterized as part of a Republican “death cult,” are now widely accepted, even at a time when cases are surging again.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/opinion/ ... cid=msnews

In other words, Biden over promised. He told us to wear masks "Not forever, for 100 days. That's all. 100 days." Now here we are, over 330 days from when he made that commitment, and we're no closer to throwing away those damn things that we were then. It's certainly not his fault, but the man let his mouth write a check that his ass couldn't cover, and people are holding him accountable.

[Aseahawkfan]

One area Riverdog don't want to bring up is how unpopular vaccine mandates are with independents and portions of the Democratic base like people of African and Latin descent. Not popular at all and likely to be a huge issue in the next election cycles.

Even Trump trying to get people to take the vaccine was booed. Trump won't even be able to use the vaccines started during his administration as a selling point during a 2024 run his base is so against it.

Vaccine mandates could literally cost Democrats major in the next election cycle and in 2024 if this is ongoing and it's yearly vaccine mandates.

[RiverDog]

One area Riverdog don't want to bring up is how unpopular vaccine mandates are with independents and portions of the Democratic base like people of African and Latin descent. Not popular at all and likely to be a huge issue in the next election cycles.

Even Trump trying to get people to take the vaccine was booed. Trump won't even be able to use the vaccines started during his administration as a selling point during a 2024 run his base is so against it.

Vaccine mandates could literally cost Democrats major in the next election cycle and in 2024 if this is ongoing and it's yearly vaccine mandates.

I don't want to bring it up? Why?

I fully support the mandates and would even be good with a nation wide mandate. But I acknowledge that they are unpopular with a large part of the electorate and represents a major reason for Biden's unpopularity. It's part of the pandemic that he now owns that I was talking about which, rightly or wrongly, he's having to take responsibility for.

And yes, it may well cost Biden and the Dems politically, but IMO it has to be done. You don't elect a POTUS to simply govern by the polls.

[Hawktawk]

In a NORAD Santa chaser event a parent told Biden “ let’s go Brandon “ Biden agreed” yes let’s go Brandon “ he proceeded to ask what town Jarred was from and then said “ I think we lost Jarred . I really want to think it was dead pan self depreciation but I think it’s just more evidence of stark mental decline , borderline dementia . Even CNN reported he seemed extremely confused in an interview discussing the pandemic where he repeatedly confused the oral pills and the tests . The Democratic Party is as deficient in invoking the 25th amendment as the last adminstration . You worry about inflation ? I worry about a nuclear Pearl Harbor . We need a steady clear headed leader with their faculties about them.

[Aseahawkfan]

I don't want to bring it up? Why?

I fully support the mandates and would even be good with a nation wide mandate. But I acknowledge that they are unpopular with a large part of the electorate and represents a major reason for Biden's unpopularity. It's part of the pandemic that he now owns that I was talking about which, rightly or wrongly, he's having to take responsibility for.

And yes, it may well cost Biden and the Dems politically, but IMO it has to be done. You don't elect a POTUS to simply govern by the polls.

These mandates are exceeding legal precedent. When we discussed mandates a while back, law supports mandates for government employees, government property, and medical workers. Private business it is up to them whether or not they mandate a vaccine. I'm interested to see if the Supreme Court backs a vaccine mandate this wide spread and what happens if they do. How far will the anti-vaccine people go to fight back?

You act like the government can just force the mandate and everything will be fine, no one will take up arms to resist it. I think 35% or more of Americans resisting is over a 100 million people. That group can mount a real terrible resistance to this. They are concentrated in some big states.

A 100 million people who think they are getting discriminated against for refusing a vaccine. You going to support putting them in camps like Australia? If so, you think they will tolerate that like Australians with no resistance? I want to see.

You seem very confident the anti-vaccine crowd won't mount a violent resistance, but I want to see if they do. I think they might do it. I think they might concentrate in Florida and Texas and the other Southern States and get serious about this level of government encroachment. If the government starts putting them in camps or trying to arrest people, I think Americans will react very differently than Australians.

And I don't really think you or the rest of the world really understand where we're at as a nation. January 6th wasn't a coup to me, it was a wake up call that a segment of America is reaching a point that violent opposition to the government is a very real possibility. That there is a growing anger and division in America that is going to reach a point of severe and prolonged violence. The rest of the world like in Canada don't really know how divided America is right now, how angry Americans are, and how much this is reaching a point of extreme reaction.

But we'll see if you're right and all these people go meekly to get vaccinated if the Supreme Court upholds this widespread a vaccine mandate and what measures they try to enforce it.

When I hear c-bob saying his neighbors are making jokes about fighting and they are better armed, I believe him. The Republicans I know make the same jokes. They aren't kidding. I know quite a few people that would have taken up arms if Trump had called for it. They are more than ready to take up arms against the Democrats. They are just waiting for a Republican war leader to sound the bell and say, "We can no longer accept what you are trying to force on us. It's time to fight."