Covid 19 .20

[RiverDog]

I do believe that the Federal government should not be able to mandate it and each state and business should control that decision based on risk assessments themselves. That's my general view, while also hoping more people take the vaccine as it is an amazing scientific advancement in vaccines that people should take advantage of.

There has to be a singular, controlling entity that mandates vaccines. Leaving it to private businesses to do their own risk assessment makes as much sense as letting restaurants to do their own risk assessment on food safety and decide on their own if they need to require their employees to wash their hands before returning to work. That was the entire rationale behind the establishment of the FDA back at the turn of the previous century. Before then, businesses had very little motivation to make sure that their products were safe. We let them make that decision and I can guarantee that they'll take the path of least resistance. If it's not a condition of their license, they have no business reason to implement a vaccine mandate.

The other problem with letting employers set their own standards is that it pits one employer against another. Especially in a labor market like we have today, if a person doesn't want to get the jab as a condition of employment, they simply go to next door and work for one that doesn't require it. You might as well not have any mandates at all as no employer would require them.

Normally I'm agreeable to allowing states to set their own safety standards, speed limits, alcohol laws, marijuana, et al. But the virus knows no borders. You can't set up a speed trap at the state line to stop a virus like as you would a speeder that refuses to honor that state's speed limit. That's one of the problems with our response vs. other countries, is that we have this patchwork of states with 50 different governors and 50 different standards.

When it comes to a pandemic, I am all for a strong central government response. I see it no differently that I do national defense. You wouldn't want 50 different states making their own decisions if we were attacked by a foreign country. We need a unified response.

[Aseahawkfan]

There has to be a singular, controlling entity that mandates vaccines. Leaving it to private businesses to do their own risk assessment makes as much sense as letting restaurants to do their own risk assessment on food safety and decide on their own if they need to require their employees to wash their hands before returning to work. That was the entire rationale behind the establishment of the FDA back at the turn of the previous century. Before then, businesses had very little motivation to make sure that their products were safe. We let them make that decision and I can guarantee that they'll take the path of least resistance. If it's not a condition of their license, they have no business reason to implement a vaccine mandate.

The other problem with letting employers set their own standards is that it pits one employer against another. Especially in a labor market like we have today, if a person doesn't want to get the jab as a condition of employment, they simply go to next door and work for one that doesn't require it. You might as well not have any mandates at all as no employer would require them.

Normally I'm agreeable to allowing states to set their own safety standards, speed limits, alcohol laws, marijuana, et al. But the virus knows no borders. You can't set up a speed trap at the state line to stop a virus like as you would a speeder that refuses to honor that state's speed limit. That's one of the problems with our response vs. other countries, is that we have this patchwork of states with 50 different governors and 50 different standards.

When it comes to a pandemic, I am all for a strong central government response. I see it no differently that I do national defense. You wouldn't want 50 different states making their own decisions if we were attacked by a foreign country. We need a unified response.

I don't trust the Federal government, probably never will.

And they're going to keep going to a place where they don't have to get the jab. At this point there will be serious resistance to vaccine mandates to the point there might well be violence and complete rebellion from certain states. I am absolutely sure that Florida and Texas will not comply with a Federal mandate and will simply sue the Federal government and do enough to hold out until Biden and the Democrats can be removed from office. I would not even at this point be surprised if vaccine mandates set off secession at least from Texas given the toxic political environment we are in.

Given the vaccines are not working as effectively against Omicron which seems to be a milder mutation, not even sure it's worth it at this point. Which seems to be what a lot of nations are realizing. The ideal situation of the vaccines coming out and eradicating COVID is pretty much a dead idea. Now it will be more a matter of living with it and managing it accordingly.

We'll see what happens if the Democrats push a Federal mandate. I think it is political suicide that will leave people with the only way to get rid of them is vote the Democrats out of office, which may well happen as I think vaccine mandates will be a huge political talking point this year and in 2024 when the presidential election occurs.

It's less troublesome for states to manage mandates because they know what their citizens will and will not tolerate. Mandates are not problematic in Washington State because this place is run by Democrats and they don't have to worry about the political fallout from mandates. Whereas in Florida or Texas they won't be tolerated and difficult to enforce as those states flip off the government and take measures to resist giving them a powerful political chip in 2022 and 2024.

I think Federal vaccine mandates are not smart at this point. And won't work very well except to further divide the nation. Unless you think you're going to force Texas and Florida to submit at gunpoint using the military, then you're going to look weak trying to enforce them.

To sum it up, it's less politically divisive and risky to leave mandates to states to manage. Certain states like New York, California, and Washington State will have problem with mandates politically. States like Florida, Texas, and Kansas will have serous issues enforcing them. Each group of citizens can simply stay in their states so the don't have to deal with the other states strict mandate or lack of strict mandates. The Federal government can support as needed.

[Aseahawkfan]

Nope, you didn't discuss this with me, but you're right, that does make a difference in our thinking of the vaccines and I appreciate your posting it as I hadn't seen it before. I read the entire article.

But it doesn't necessarily invalidate the data. All it does is raise questions regarding the methodology of the vaccine trials and the accuracy of the claim that it was 95% effective at preventing infections based on those trials. It does not speak to the substantial evidence that they have collected in the field since the vaccines were rolled out in December of 2020, both here and in other countries like Israel, that confirmed that the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines had initial efficacies of 95% against infections from the original variant and an even greater efficacy against severe disease and death. They could see in very controlled environments like nursing homes that the vaccines worked with a very high degree of effectiveness and were extremely effective in reducing the spread.

Besides, the main object of the trials isn't so much to get a precise efficacy of the vaccine's ability to prevent infection. Who cares if it's 95% or just 85%? A good ball park estimate will suffice. The major goal of the trials is to make sure that they are safe before they roll them out nation wide, that there aren't severe side effects that didn't show up in their initial testing.

But like you say, it's all water under the bridge at this point. The vaccines, although not as effective at preventing infections and reducing the spread as they were when they first rolled out, still protect against severe illness and are critically important tools in our battle against this virus. There's other vaccines in the pipeline that have the potential to eventually eradicate the virus.

I think I remember now. We were discussing how long it would take to eradicate the virus given the efficacy rate. I thought it could be quick, you pointed it took years to eradicate smallpox with vaccination. I think that was that thread.

I think this discussion was with a buddy who was dismissing the vaccines because they did not prevent infection. I had to delve into the study and saw what he meant, but also read how they were not built to stop virus transmission but to greatly reduce symptomatic COVID and severe COVID which still makes them highly useful.

[RiverDog]

I think I remember now. We were discussing how long it would take to eradicate the virus given the efficacy rate. I thought it could be quick, you pointed it took years to eradicate smallpox with vaccination. I think that was that thread.

I think this discussion was with a buddy who was dismissing the vaccines because they did not prevent infection. I had to delve into the study and saw what he meant, but also read how they were not built to stop virus transmission but to greatly reduce symptomatic COVID and severe COVID which still makes them highly useful.

I could be wrong as my memory isn't any longer than my manhood, but I don't recall ever talking about Covid in terms of eradication. I've always thought of it in terms of ending the pandemic. It didn't take years to eradicate smallpox, it took decades. Same with polio, which is all but eradicated. Both were done via vaccines, which included mandates. I had to have a polio and smallpox shot to attend school. Eradication wasn't achieved by natural immunity. BTW, the polio vaccine story is quite interesting. American Experience on PBS had a documentary entitled "The Polio Crusade" that's a really good watch.

As far as the original intent of the vaccines, I believe that they were intended on preventing infection. It was only later, when we started seeing more breakthrough cases, that they were thought of in terms of preventing severe disease. One anti vaxxer that I was debating at the time termed it as "moving the goal posts, they don't know WTF they're doing, so now they're changing the purpose of the vaccines."

Vaccines don't "stop" transmission, but they greatly reduce it. As Hawktalk once pointed out, that's why the NFL has a different quarantine requirement for infected vaccinated players vs. infected unvaccinated.

[RiverDog]

I also believe our government has villainized unvaccinated Americas as selfish and misrepresented the idea that the pandemic would have ended had we just taken the shot. People do stupid things. People who went to work sick, sent their kids to school sick, etc have done more to lead to the continuation of the pandemic than anything else. There is no doubt that a majority of them were unvaccinated, but I have seen many vaccinated parents send kids to school, go out in public without masks when they are sick, etc over the past month than at any other time during the pandemic. I have asked a few why they are doing this and there response is typicall, "because this strain isn't that bad and I'm ready for this to be over." At the end of the day combating COVID wasn't just about vaccines. It was about making smart personal choices that reduced the spread and made you less likely to overwhelm the hospital system.

I don't want to appear cruel or insensitive, but my sympathy for you and others like you for having been 'villainized' by the government and others because you chose not to get vaccinated is very limited. This isn't like being discriminated against because of our race, age, or country of origin, something we have no control over. Especially for a man like yourself, who is obviously highly intelligent and educated, you made a decision not to take the shot knowing the consequences of your refusal, including the social stigma that was sure to result. Furthermore, even if you hadn't anticipated the blow back and the situation became intolerable, you STILL had an option to end it by going and getting the shot. It isn't very often that we find ourselves in a situation where we are being discriminated against that we have such an easy and immediate means available in which to end it.

I try my best to treat everyone with respect despite differences in our personal outlook on life, but the fact is that many people do not view the decision as to whether or not to get vaccinated a strictly personal one. Many view it as an obligation as a member of a community. When you consider that over 800,000 people in this country alone that has died from this virus, villainization of those that do not share that point of view is inevitable.

[mykc14]

I don't want to appear cruel or insensitive, but my sympathy for you and others like you for having been 'villainized' by the government and others because you chose not to get vaccinated is very limited. This isn't like being discriminated against because of our race, age, or country of origin, something we have no control over. Especially for a man like yourself, who is obviously highly intelligent and educated, you made a decision not to take the shot knowing the consequences of your refusal, including the social stigma that was sure to result. Furthermore, even if you hadn't anticipated the blow back and the situation became intolerable, you STILL had an option to end it by going and getting the shot. It isn't very often that we find ourselves in a situation where we are being discriminated against that we have such an easy and immediate means available in which to end it.

I try my best to treat everyone with respect despite differences in our personal outlook on life, but the fact is that many people do not view the decision as to whether or not to get vaccinated a strictly personal one. Many view it as an obligation as a member of a community. When you consider that over 800,000 people in this country alone that has died from this virus, villainization of those that do not share that point of view is inevitable.

I want to make it very clear I never said I was discriminated against and I would never compare myself to anybody who has been based on race, gender, sexual orientation, or anything else like that. I used the word villinized and went onto explain that it’s stupid people who are going out sick, not social distancing, etc regardless of vaccine status who are spreading this. I’m not looking for sympathy I’m pointing out the fact that we’ve got to get past vaxxed vs unvaxxed- it simply doesn’t matter at this point, but our government is still pushing that narrative. Vaccinated people- go enjoy your life- unvaccinated- you are going to spread this and everybody you love is going to die because of your choice!! I think it’s terrible that 800,000 + Americans have died, but to pin those deaths on the unvaccinated is BS, especially wh we had known treatments that were working but we weren’t making readily available. Trump used Monoclonal Antibodies almost a year before they were available for the average American. Even Ivermectin is finally being used and prescribed by doctors across the country. A local doctor, who is a good friend and very much pro vaccine was refusing to give Ivermectin until a months ago and now admits he has seen significant improvement with patients he has prescribed it to. I had a friend who had COVID in August. He called his local doctor to see what he she do and the answer was, “if you have trouble breathing go to the ER.” To me some of those deaths could have been avoided had we not put all of our chips in on the vaccines and had a more open view of treating this virus early- not waiting until people couldn’t breath before giving them treatment.

[Hawktawk]

There have been estimates of hundreds of thousands of uneccessary deaths since vaccines have been readily available in this country . It’s always been the best weapon against severe outcomes , 90% better than unvaxed regarding hospitalization and death . It’s not stopping Omicron at all but also greatly lessening the symptoms . My sisters entire family got it and she had heavy fevers and extremely ill for 12 days . My brothers brother in law just got it yesterday’s and reported 105 temperature . He’s on Invermictin and I’m positive not vaxxinated . It doesn’t matter how many ways you say it . Not being vaxxed is not a good idea . I’ve recently buried 2 good friends , both healthy but unvaxed so it brings it home to me. I can’t hate the unvaxed anymore but I have nothing but hate for the peddlers of misinformation.

[mykc14]

There have been estimates of hundreds of thousands of uneccessary deaths since vaccines have been readily available in this country . It’s always been the best weapon against severe outcomes , 90% better than unvaxed regarding hospitalization and death . It’s not stopping Omicron at all but also greatly lessening the symptoms . My sisters entire family got it and she had heavy fevers and extremely ill for 12 days . My brothers brother in law just got it yesterday’s and reported 105 temperature . He’s on Invermictin and I’m positive not vaxxinated . It doesn’t matter how many ways you say it . Not being vaxxed is not a good idea . I’ve recently buried 2 good friends , both healthy but unvaxed so it brings it home to me. I can’t hate the unvaxed anymore but I have nothing but hate for the peddlers of misinformation.

I have read about your friends who have passed away due to this virus and I am sorry for your loss. I don’t disagree that vaccines are a very important tool in dealing with this pandemic, and no doubt there are hundreds of thousands of people who wouldn’t have died had they taken the vaccine. Although I’ve had it i could still theoretically be one. I understand this, but I also think we could have done a better treating the virus in infected people. I agree with you about misinformation- the problem is we don’t always know what is and what isn’t misinformation. Many people think saying Ivermectin helps is peddling false information. I don’t know, but I do know my doctor buddy would have said the same thing until he started to see people having success with it. My goal isn’t to debate ivermectin or to peddle false information. If somebody asks me if they should get the vaccine I always say talk to your doctor, but I do believe we could have saved lives by investing in some form of treatments.

[RiverDog]

I want to make it very clear I never said I was discriminated against and I would never compare myself to anybody who has been based on race, gender, sexual orientation, or anything else like that. I used the word villinized and went onto explain that it’s stupid people who are going out sick, not social distancing, etc regardless of vaccine status who are spreading this. I’m not looking for sympathy I’m pointing out the fact that we’ve got to get past vaxxed vs unvaxxed- it simply doesn’t matter at this point, but our government is still pushing that narrative. Vaccinated people- go enjoy your life- unvaccinated- you are going to spread this and everybody you love is going to die because of your choice!! I think it’s terrible that 800,000 + Americans have died, but to pin those deaths on the unvaccinated is BS, especially wh we had known treatments that were working but we weren’t making readily available. Trump used Monoclonal Antibodies almost a year before they were available for the average American. Even Ivermectin is finally being used and prescribed by doctors across the country. A local doctor, who is a good friend and very much pro vaccine was refusing to give Ivermectin until a months ago and now admits he has seen significant improvement with patients he has prescribed it to. I had a friend who had COVID in August. He called his local doctor to see what he she do and the answer was, “if you have trouble breathing go to the ER.” To me some of those deaths could have been avoided had we not put all of our chips in on the vaccines and had a more open view of treating this virus early- not waiting until people couldn’t breath before giving them treatment.

I was trying my best not to make it personal, and I hope I didn't offend you as it was not my intent. But when you start talking about a class of people, in this case, those that chose to get unvaccinated, as being 'villainized", it's only natural to associate them with other groups of people that are also a victim of being pre-judged based on a classification assigned to them by our society. All of those groups, including the unvaccinated, experience discrimination, some of it unfair, others more justified. I stand by my analogy.

I am not blaming 800,000 deaths on the unvaccinated, but as Hawktalk pointed out, the number of avoidable deaths in this country over the past year due to people that were able to get the shot but declined is likely in the hundreds of thousands, or, to put in perspective, over twice as many that were killed in the Vietnam War.

As with all things that involve the numbers we're talking about, I am sure that there are exceptions, such as the ones you noted. But the bottom line is that up until the past couple of months, we have had an obscene number of avoidable deaths simply because people chose not to get a poke that is free of cost, has been proven to be very effective, and has been administered to literally billions of people with no major side effects.

As far as the current state of affairs regarding our government's response, I agree with you, it's very disjointed. The CDC/FDA are not well equipped to handle a pandemic. They have a wonderful group of doctors and scientists working for them, but like all government agencies, they are very slow and methodical. The amount of time from when Omicron was first detected in this country to when it became the dominate strain was less than what it took for the FDA to review the data submitted to them and approve the three vaccines on an emergency use authorization, and even that was in record time. But if you take a look at how they got that way, you can see why they are so deliberate. The government experienced a severe amount of criticism over the military's use of the anthrax vaccine in the first Gulf War, a vaccine that hadn't even been approved by the FDA, so they came up with a very good process of independent review before they approve drugs for use amongst the general public.

That process needs to change. There needs to be a way to streamline the process without compromising safety.

[mykc14]

I was trying my best not to make it personal, and I hope I didn't offend you as it was not my intent. But when you start talking about a class of people, in this case, those that chose to get unvaccinated, as being 'villainized", it's only natural to associate them with other groups of people that are also a victim of being pre-judged based on a classification assigned to them by our society. All of those groups, including the unvaccinated, experience discrimination, some of it unfair, others more justified. I stand by my analogy.

I am not blaming 800,000 deaths on the unvaccinated, but as Hawktalk pointed out, the number of avoidable deaths in this country over the past year due to people that were able to get the shot but declined is likely in the hundreds of thousands, or, to put in perspective, over twice as many that were killed in the Vietnam War.

As with all things that involve the numbers we're talking about, I am sure that there are exceptions, such as the ones you noted. But the bottom line is that up until the past couple of months, we have had an obscene number of avoidable deaths simply because people chose not to get a poke that is free of cost, has been proven to be very effective, and has been administered to literally billions of people with no major side effects.

As far as the current state of affairs regarding our government's response, I agree with you, it's very disjointed. The CDC/FDA are not well equipped to handle a pandemic. They have a wonderful group of doctors and scientists working for them, but like all government agencies, they are very slow and methodical. The amount of time from when Omicron was first detected in this country to when it became the dominate strain was less than what it took for the FDA to review the data submitted to them and approve the three vaccines on an emergency use authorization, and even that was in record time. But if you take a look at how they got that way, you can see why they are so deliberate. The government experienced a severe amount of criticism over the military's use of the anthrax vaccine in the first Gulf War, a vaccine that hadn't even been approved by the FDA, so they came up with a very good process of independent review before they approve drugs for use amongst the general public.

That process needs to change. There needs to be a way to streamline the process without compromising safety.

When we think of the people who have been discriminated against around the world we typically don't call them 'villainized' although many certainly were. There are many levels of discrimination and villainization and if want to stand by your analogy that is fine, but I'm not buying into it. When I hear of somebody, or any group being villainized, I don't automatically jump to comparing them to people who have faced extreme discrimination. Fox news villainizes Democrats, CNN villainizes Republicans, etc. To me those groups don't go with your analogy and neither do the unvaxxed.

In my reply to Hawktalk I stated that I agree that hundred's of thousands of American deaths could have been avoided had they decided to get the vaccine. I understand that I could still be one. To use your war analogy we're probably talking about the amount of US Soldiers who died in WW1 or maybe WW2. I am not anti-vaccine, like I stated before, when people ask me if they should get the vaccine I tell them to talk to their doctor.

I don't know about there being no major side affects as there are people who have died from the vaccine, I would classify that as a major side effect- but in general it seems safe for a vast majority of those who have taken it and I really have no interest in debating the safety of the vaccine right now.

My whole point remains the same- we need to get past vaxxed vs. unvaxxed and learn to live with this virus. Hopefully it doesn't mutate into a stronger form than it is now, unfortunately it doesn't seem like our government is ready to do that as can be seen by Biden's plan to vaccinate the world.

[Hawktawk]

I read yesterday about a singer who intentionally contracted the virus and it killed her . I read a Facebook post from a high school classmate I actually attended the senior prom with 45 years ago. She was sharing an anti vax website . Someone asked how she was doing . She said she needs a hip replaced but “ thanks to Inslee “ elective surgeries are on hold . Whatever ones stance there is a cultish suspense of reality in that woman . It’s hopeless . I think there’s a Jeff Foxworthy joke in there . If you’re anti vax and bitching about hospitals being full You might be an idiot ……

[RiverDog]

When we think of the people who have been discriminated against around the world we typically don't call them 'villainized' although many certainly were. There are many levels of discrimination and villainization and if want to stand by your analogy that is fine, but I'm not buying into it. When I hear of somebody, or any group being villainized, I don't automatically jump to comparing them to people who have faced extreme discrimination. Fox news villainizes Democrats, CNN villainizes Republicans, etc. To me those groups don't go with your analogy and neither do the unvaxxed.

OK, if you don't like that analogy, here's a different way to look at your premise regarding the villainization of the unvaccinated.

One of the major things I didn't like about Donald Trump was that he "villainized" illegal immigrants as nothing but a bunch of drug running thugs out to rape our children, numbering in the millions, that crashed the border and that we need to spend billions of taxpayer dollars to erect a wall to keep them out. The fact is that the vast majority of illegals are undocumented because they overstayed their visa, meaning that they entered the country not by swimming the river or on a burro through the desert, but legally through a port of entry. However, my personal sympathy for the plight of an illegal alien, although they have been grossly mischaracterized by the POTUS, is very limited because they have a choice: They could either get themselves legal by applying for an extension of their visa/citizenship, or they could leave the country. They by no means have to accept how society has painted them if it is that disturbing for them to bear.

My point is that if you don't like how the government or others have villainized you, you have a choice: Go get vaccinated. Obviously, it's not that big of an issue for you personally or else you would have done exactly that.

In my reply to Hawktalk I stated that I agree that hundred's of thousands of American deaths could have been avoided had they decided to get the vaccine. I understand that I could still be one. To use your war analogy we're probably talking about the amount of US Soldiers who died in WW1 or maybe WW2. I am not anti-vaccine, like I stated before, when people ask me if they should get the vaccine I tell them to talk to their doctor.

I used Vietnam because 2X was about 110k, or a very conservative estimate of how many preventable deaths we've suffered due to a low vaccination rate. The total deaths from covid are well over what both sides lost in the Civil War, the most devasting war in our country's history, and we're still counting.

I don't know about there being no major side affects as there are people who have died from the vaccine, I would classify that as a major side effect- but in general it seems safe for a vast majority of those who have taken it and I really have no interest in debating the safety of the vaccine right now.

I should have chosen my words more carefully. When one considers the number of vaccinations that have been administered worldwide, there have been very, very few incidents of major side effects compared to that of other generally accepted drugs and treatments that we take for granted, such as oral contraceptives. Just listen to the disclaimers they read on the scores of drug commercials we have to listen to. The vaccines are incredibly safe and there is no logical argument not to get the jab based on safety unless you are some type of Christian Scientist that rejects ALL drugs and treatments.

My whole point remains the same- we need to get past vaxxed vs. unvaxxed and learn to live with this virus. Hopefully it doesn't mutate into a stronger form than it is now, unfortunately it doesn't seem like our government is ready to do that as can be seen by Biden's plan to vaccinate the world.

For me, the vaccinated vs. unvaccinated debate is water under the bridge, at least for now. There is so much virus floating around that it doesn't make a lot of sense to insist on vaccinations that are not likely to prevent infection anyway, and for me personally, I don't mind wearing my KN95 mask during the few times I spend indoors. From what I am reading, some of the experts think that the Omicron variant will represent a transition to where the virus is relegated to an endemic and that by mid March the pandemic could be over, at least for this country. But I still remain fully committed to vaccine mandates as a tool to fight future pandemics or this one should it rebound.

As far as Biden's plan to vaccinate the world, I'm four square behind him and was even critical of him last spring when he refused to release a stockpile of vaccines not even approved here. Get needles into as many arms as we can wherever they live and we'll have a better chance of beating this thing. People in other countries are generally more accepting of vaccines than we are here in the US. And that's coming from a conservative that votes Republican about 80% of the time.

[c_hawkbob]

Like it or not, and parse it any way you'd care to, the intentionally unvaccinated (not 3rd world and those unable to get vaccinated for whatever legitimate reason) are and will always be the villains of the Covid 19 story.

[mykc14]

Like it or not, and parse it any way you'd care to, the intentionally unvaccinated (not 3rd world and those unable to get vaccinated for whatever legitimate reason) are and will always be the villains of the Covid 19 story.

And I don't have a problem with that, I just think we have to get past it if we are ever going to get back to normal and live with this.

[mykc14]

OK, if you don't like that analogy, here's a different way to look at your premise regarding the villainization of the unvaccinated.

My point is that if you don't like how the government or others have villainized you, you have a choice: Go get vaccinated. Obviously, it's not that big of an issue for you personally or else you would have done exactly that.


I should have chosen my words more carefully. When one considers the number of vaccinations that have been administered worldwide, there have been very, very few incidents of major side effects compared to that of other generally accepted drugs and treatments that we take for granted, such as oral contraceptives. Just listen to the disclaimers they read on the scores of drug commercials we have to listen to. The vaccines are incredibly safe and there is no logical argument not to get the jab based on safety unless you are some type of Christian Scientist that rejects ALL drugs and treatments.


For me, the vaccinated vs. unvaccinated debate is water under the bridge, at least for now. There is so much virus floating around that it doesn't make a lot of sense to insist on vaccinations that are not likely to prevent infection anyway, and for me personally, I don't mind wearing my KN95 mask during the few times I spend indoors. From what I am reading, some of the experts think that the Omicron variant will represent a transition to where the virus is relegated to an endemic and that by mid March the pandemic could be over, at least for this country. But I still remain fully committed to vaccine mandates as a tool to fight future pandemics or this one should it rebound.

As far as Biden's plan to vaccinate the world, I'm four square behind him and was even critical of him last spring when he refused to release a stockpile of vaccines not even approved here. Get needles into as many arms as we can wherever they live and we'll have a better chance of beating this thing. People in other countries are generally more accepting of vaccines than we are here in the US. And that's coming from a conservative that votes Republican about 80% of the time.

I agree with most of this and that analogy is one that I can see a connection to. You are right I don't care if people see me as a villain- and I could see their perspective back in July- but things have changed since then and we ought to adjust if our goal is to really get past this. There is too much politically at stake and I think that villainization is mostly political. I'm about trying to come together and all that does is divide us.

As far as the safety of the vaccines I generally agree with you.

[RiverDog]

I agree with most of this and that analogy is one that I can see a connection to. You are right I don't care if people see me as a villain- and I could see their perspective back in July- but things have changed since then and we ought to adjust if our goal is to really get past this. There is too much politically at stake and I think that villainization is mostly political. I'm about trying to come together and all that does is divide us.

As far as the safety of the vaccines I generally agree with you.

I'll have to say that out of those folks who are unvaccinated that I've debated like this, you're the politest. It's a conversation that I've avoided having in person because I'm unsure of a person's reaction and don't want to take a chance on ruining a friendship. But I do think that airing out this subject serves a good purpose as it helps advance our understanding of each other.

Since one of the major factors that drives vaccine hesitancy/acceptance is a person's politics, the villainization aspect is bound to be mostly political. There are also racial and age components to vaccine hesitancy, but the one that gets the most attention is politics. And believe me, it goes both ways. I've been called a dope, stooge, sheep, zombie, cone head, boot licker, and so on, solely because I advocate both the vaccines and the mandates.

Although I do agree that the mandates are pretty meaningless at this point, I would be reluctant to rescind any of them, at least not now. The one thing we don't want to do is jack people around, first initiating a mandate, relaxing it, then ramping it up again if we get another surge or variant. So except for those that SCOTUS has slapped down, ie the mandate for companies with 100+ employees that was done through OSHA, I'm for keeping them in place, especially those for health care workers as they are by definition going to be interacting closely with at risk individuals.

[Hawktawk]

Although I do agree that the mandates are pretty meaningless at this point, I would be reluctant to rescind any of them, at least not now. The one thing we don't want to do is jack people around, first initiating a mandate, relaxing it, then ramping it up again if we get another surge or variant. So except for those that SCOTUS has slapped down, ie the mandate for companies with 100+ employees that was done through OSHA, I'm for keeping them in place, especially those for health care workers as they are by definition going to be interacting closely with at risk individuals.

I agree with all of this. If the virus has proven anything its unpredictable. If we get a mutation as contagious as omicron and lethal as some early strains we will lose millions of lives and experience societal breakdown. Every damn time weve relaxed in this country there's been another wave bigger than before. We must stay vigilant. Even with less lethal Omicron deaths are back up around 2 k a day due to sheer volume.
My biggest complaint about this administration and the one before is a lack of testing. Its a big part of why we fared so much worse than almost any nation. The UK and US both have kids in school but they have about a tenth of the problems due to rigorous testing among other measures. Living with Coronavirus has got to involve better testing.

[RiverDog]

Although I do agree that the mandates are pretty meaningless at this point, I would be reluctant to rescind any of them, at least not now. The one thing we don't want to do is jack people around, first initiating a mandate, relaxing it, then ramping it up again if we get another surge or variant. So except for those that SCOTUS has slapped down, ie the mandate for companies with 100+ employees that was done through OSHA, I'm for keeping them in place, especially those for health care workers as they are by definition going to be interacting closely with at risk individuals.

I agree with all of this. If the virus has proven anything its unpredictable. If we get a mutation as contagious as omicron and lethal as some early strains we will lose millions of lives and experience societal breakdown. Every damn time weve relaxed in this country there's been another wave bigger than before. We must stay vigilant. Even with less lethal Omicron deaths are back up around 2 k a day due to sheer volume.
My biggest complaint about this administration and the one before is a lack of testing. Its a big part of why we fared so much worse than almost any nation. The UK and US both have kids in school but they have about a tenth of the problems due to rigorous testing among other measures. Living with Coronavirus has got to involve better testing.

Now that we have masks available that will protect the wearer from infection that are reliable and cheap, I would agree to rescind some of the mask mandates, at least for adults. As long as I have the ability to protect myself, I don't give a rip if someone else wants to take a risk of inhaling the virus. As a matter of fact, the government is about to make N95 masks available to the public for little or no cost, something that they should have done long ago.

That's one of the things that Biden screwed up early on. Just before was Inaugurated he asked Americans to wear masks "for 100 days. That's all. Not forever, just 100 days". I said then that he was making a mistake, that we might need them longer and that he shouldn't be putting a fixed number on it. He over promised and under delivered, causing people to mistrust him.

[mykc14]

I'll have to say that out of those folks who are unvaccinated that I've debated like this, you're the politest. It's a conversation that I've avoided having in person because I'm unsure of a person's reaction and don't want to take a chance on ruining a friendship. But I do think that airing out this subject serves a good purpose as it helps advance our understanding of each other.

Since one of the major factors that drives vaccine hesitancy/acceptance is a person's politics, the villainization aspect is bound to be mostly political. There are also racial and age components to vaccine hesitancy, but the one that gets the most attention is politics. And believe me, it goes both ways. I've been called a dope, stooge, sheep, zombie, cone head, boot licker, and so on, solely because I advocate both the vaccines and the mandates.

Although I do agree that the mandates are pretty meaningless at this point, I would be reluctant to rescind any of them, at least not now. The one thing we don't want to do is jack people around, first initiating a mandate, relaxing it, then ramping it up again if we get another surge or variant. So except for those that SCOTUS has slapped down, ie the mandate for companies with 100+ employees that was done through OSHA, I'm for keeping them in place, especially those for health care workers as they are by definition going to be interacting closely with at risk individuals.

Thanks, I would say the same to you. I agree that it is important to talk through these things as civil as possible and that it can help. I have had many of these conversations and some of them don't go well, those are almost always bad because somebody just says I'm stupid for not getting the vaccine, but by and large the conversations have gone really well. The conversations usually started when a friend would want to hang out and I made it a point to tell them that I wasn't vaccinated and that I understand if they wanted to cancel. Usually that would lead to a very good conversation about why I wasn't vaccinated. Part of my family has a huge issue with us not being vaccinated and I understand where they are coming from. They are scared and although I don't agree that I am nearly as big of a threat to them as they seem to think I am I do respect their position. A good example of this was this past Christmas. My grandpa (who I have a really good relationship with) called and told me that we can't go the the family Christmas party. I told him I understood and didn't think we would be invited anyway. The funny part was that my brother who never wears a mask, goes out to bars and other high risk areas all of the time, and is a much higher risk for contracting COVID than myself was able to go because he had one shot of the J&J 7 months prior. My brother and I also have a great relationship and we were cracking up laughing. I mask all the time, test myself often (and would have tested my whole family before we went up), and have natural immunity and he walks around licking handrails (metaphorically) and he is perfectly welcome. Again, I understand why they think the way they do but I think we need to look at these things a little more logically and that is going to be hard to do when the president talks the way he does- our goal should be moving to the next phase not trying as hard as we can to be stuck in this one, which is what our government seems to be doing even when other world leaders and our allies are trying to move on.

I agree that this is political in nature, although I don't think that it has to be. It wasn't long ago that the anti-vaxxers were mainly Democrats (not that most democrats were anti-vaxxers).

I understand what you are saying about jerking people around, but the reality is that the vaccines aren't working well to stop the spread of the virus now and the likelihood of that changing isn't very high. That is one reason why it doesn't make much sense for Biden to push vaccinating the world. It seems that the best case scenario is that the vaccines wane over a 4-6 month period so what would the plan after that be? Boost the whole world? Like you mentioned earlier Israel has shown that 4 shots of the Pfizer vaccine doesn't work against Omni. If the goal is to protect anybody in the world from serious disease then I don't have a big problem with it, but it can't be our plan for ending or living with COVID. The rest of the Western world is ready to move on and we need to as well. As far as the health care workers go I don't understand why there should be a mandate for them. Obviously they are higher risk to get the virus, but if they want to get the vaccine they can get one- what is the mandate doing besides keeping 5-10% of workers out of a job that is desperately understaffed. They are adults, they know the risks, why not let them work?

[RiverDog]

Thanks, I would say the same to you. I agree that it is important to talk through these things as civil as possible and that it can help. I have had many of these conversations and some of them don't go well, those are almost always bad because somebody just says I'm stupid for not getting the vaccine, but by and large the conversations have gone really well. The conversations usually started when a friend would want to hang out and I made it a point to tell them that I wasn't vaccinated and that I understand if they wanted to cancel. Usually that would lead to a very good conversation about why I wasn't vaccinated. Part of my family has a huge issue with us not being vaccinated and I understand where they are coming from. They are scared and although I don't agree that I am nearly as big of a threat to them as they seem to think I am I do respect their position. A good example of this was this past Christmas. My grandpa (who I have a really good relationship with) called and told me that we can't go the the family Christmas party. I told him I understood and didn't think we would be invited anyway. The funny part was that my brother who never wears a mask, goes out to bars and other high risk areas all of the time, and is a much higher risk for contracting COVID than myself was able to go because he had one shot of the J&J 7 months prior. My brother and I also have a great relationship and we were cracking up laughing. I mask all the time, test myself often (and would have tested my whole family before we went up), and have natural immunity and he walks around licking handrails (metaphorically) and he is perfectly welcome. Again, I understand why they think the way they do but I think we need to look at these things a little more logically and that is going to be hard to do when the president talks the way he does- our goal should be moving to the next phase not trying as hard as we can to be stuck in this one, which is what our government seems to be doing even when other world leaders and our allies are trying to move on.

I agree that this is political in nature, although I don't think that it has to be. It wasn't long ago that the anti-vaxxers were mainly Democrats (not that most democrats were anti-vaxxers).

I understand what you are saying about jerking people around, but the reality is that the vaccines aren't working well to stop the spread of the virus now and the likelihood of that changing isn't very high. That is one reason why it doesn't make much sense for Biden to push vaccinating the world. It seems that the best case scenario is that the vaccines wane over a 4-6 month period so what would the plan after that be? Boost the whole world? Like you mentioned earlier Israel has shown that 4 shots of the Pfizer vaccine doesn't work against Omni. If the goal is to protect anybody in the world from serious disease then I don't have a big problem with it, but it can't be our plan for ending or living with COVID. The rest of the Western world is ready to move on and we need to as well. As far as the health care workers go I don't understand why there should be a mandate for them. Obviously they are higher risk to get the virus, but if they want to get the vaccine they can get one- what is the mandate doing besides keeping 5-10% of workers out of a job that is desperately understaffed. They are adults, they know the risks, why not let them work?

Interesting story regarding the dynamics going on with your friends and family.

I don't agree with your statement the vaccines "doesn't work" against Omicron. There hasn't been enough time to fully evaluate them against this new variant. The Israeli study was only preliminary, and relied on antibody production, not actual field results. Here's what the Israeli study said:

The vaccines led to a increase in the number of antibodies “even a little bit higher than what we had after the third dose,” said Regev-Yochay.

“Yet, this is probably not enough for the omicron,” she told reporters. “We know by now that the level of antibodies needed to protect and not to got infected from Omicron is probably too high for the vaccine, even if it’s a good vaccine.”

The findings, which the hospital said were the first of its kind in the world, were preliminary and not yet published.

https://www.cnbc.com/2022/01/17/omicron ... ctive.html

In addition, we're holding the vaccines to such a high standard that it's easy to lose our perception of how vaccines normally perform. The Pfizer and Moderna vaccines had a 95%+ efficacy against the original virus, J&J a little lower, about 78%. Those are exceptionally high numbers. The annual flu shot is only 40-60% effective yet we still aggressively push it each fall. Even if it turns out that the current vaccines are 30% effective, they're still better than nothing. We can't say that they "don't work".

The other thing that we have to keep in mind about Israel is that in their initial roll out, they used just the Pfizer vaccine, and if my own personal experience has any bearing, the Moderna vaccine is the better of the two.

So yes, it's way too premature to be talking about rescinding the vaccine mandates.

[mykc14]

I don't agree with your statement the vaccines "doesn't work" against Omicron. There hasn't been enough time to fully evaluate them against this new variant. The Israeli study was only preliminary, and relied on antibody production, not actual field results.

The other thing that we have to keep in mind about Israel is that in their initial roll out, they used just the Pfizer vaccine, and if my own personal experience has any bearing, the Moderna vaccine is the better of the two.

So yes, it's way too premature to be talking about rescinding the vaccine mandates.

I agree "Doesn't work" isn't correct, I'll replace that with isn't effective.

I agree that we should keep producing vaccines and allowing people to take them much like the flu vaccine. I understand your perspective on the mandates but at what point do we get rid of them then? There is always going to be the possibility, however unlikely, that a variant could pop up that they are effective against. As far as hospitals go the mandate is ridiculous. At my wife's hospital nurses who got fired for not getting the vaccine are free to 'Travel' to other hospitals in our state, get a big bonus, and make 300% of what they made before without getting the vaccine. The hospital that fired them then needs to hire a traveling nurse to fill their position (who may or may not be vaccinated), pay them a big bonus and 300% of what the previous nurse was making. The purpose of the mandates are to manipulate people into getting the vaccine, not to actually protect people. My wife is a nurse who worked throughout the pandemic and the biggest threat to her getting COVID occurred everyday in the lunchroom, going out with friends, and our kids. As a teacher, another mandated profession, my biggest threat of catching or spreading the virus by far was from my kids, my social activities, and coaching- not from teaching. With all of that being said I understand why you would want to keep the mandates around for awhile longer because you wouldn't want to pull them and then boom a few months later we get a big surge that the vaccine would have helped with.

The hope is that this does become the flu and we treat the vaccine the same way. We are not there yet but hopefully we are headed in that directionl.

[mykc14]

My biggest complaint about this administration and the one before is a lack of testing. Its a big part of why we fared so much worse than almost any nation. The UK and US both have kids in school but they have about a tenth of the problems due to rigorous testing among other measures. Living with Coronavirus has got to involve better testing.

I agree with this. The best way to control this was with testing. I was always in favor of requiring testing for unvaccinated staff (actually I was in favor of testing everybody). It is looking like, from the 100 or so tests I see on a weekly basis that this variant isn't causing people to test positive as early as other variants. Before, most students were testing positive before they even had symptoms, now students are like "man I don't feel good, I think I am going to test positive today" and then they test negative. Then a few days later they finally test positive. Although testing would help I don't think it will work as well against this variant as previous variants. It could be that we are testing the wrong area. Scientists are finding that this variant tends to settle in the throat mucus and not the nose mucus as much.

[RiverDog]

I agree "Doesn't work" isn't correct, I'll replace that with isn't effective.

That still isn't correct. "Their is evidence that they aren't as effective" would be the most accurate description of the vaccines performance against Omicron.

The other factor that you're not considering is that the vaccines/boosters may not be as effective against Omicron, but they could be extremely effective against a future variant. It's not going to hurt anyone to leave these mandates in place for the time being.

I agree that we should keep producing vaccines and allowing people to take them much like the flu vaccine. I understand your perspective on the mandates but at what point do we get rid of them then?

I can't answer that, but certainly not now when we're still in a pandemic. Let's cross that bridge when we come to it.

There is always going to be the possibility, however unlikely, that a variant could pop up that they are effective against. As far as hospitals go the mandate is ridiculous. At my wife's hospital nurses who got fired for not getting the vaccine are free to 'Travel' to other hospitals in our state, get a big bonus, and make 300% of what they made before without getting the vaccine. The hospital that fired them then needs to hire a traveling nurse to fill their position (who may or may not be vaccinated), pay them a big bonus and 300% of what the previous nurse was making. The purpose of the mandates are to manipulate people into getting the vaccine, not to actually protect people. My wife is a nurse who worked throughout the pandemic and the biggest threat to her getting COVID occurred everyday in the lunchroom, going out with friends, and our kids. As a teacher, another mandated profession, my biggest threat of catching or spreading the virus by far was from my kids, my social activities, and coaching- not from teaching. With all of that being said I understand why you would want to keep the mandates around for awhile longer because you wouldn't want to pull them and then boom a few months later we get a big surge that the vaccine would have helped with.

The mandates aren't perfect and I'm sure there's other incredulous examples of how screwed up the mandates are, but so, too, are a lot of laws and regulations. If you were told that DUI laws are so ineffective and asinine that they're only about 50% effective in keeping people from drinking and driving, would you argue for resending them? Of course not, because even if they stopped just a fraction of people from driving drunk, the law still saves hundreds, if not thousands, of lives.

In my eyes, the object of the mandates wasn't to assure 100% compliance. There's always going to be situations where they are impractical or unworkable. The object of the mandates was to get as many needles into as many arms as possible. The mandates are likely responsible for at least 10% more vaccinations than we would have had without them, meaning that they saved countless lives and kept our health care system from total collapse.

The hope is that this does become the flu and we treat the vaccine the same way. We are not there yet but hopefully we are headed in that directionl.

That's likely what's going to happen eventually, but who knows.

[RiverDog]

I came across a good article that talks about Omicron and how it could or couldn't represent the beginning of the end of the pandemic. Here are a couple of highlights:

Experts generally agree that Omicron moves us closer to that stage (a seasonal virus like the flu) with Covid-19. But there is a big caveat that determines how fast we'll get there -- and it depends not on the current strain, but the one that comes next.

"It is an open question as to whether or not Omicron is going to be the live virus vaccination that everyone is hoping for, because you have such a great deal of variability with new variants emerging," Dr. Anthony Fauci, director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, said Monday.

"I would hope that that's the case," Fauci told the Davos Agenda, a virtual event this week held by the World Economic Forum, mirroring the cautious optimism that many epidemiologists are expressing. He added that the world was "fortunate" that Omicron didn't share more of Delta's characteristics.

But for all the positive indications, it "doesn't mean a new variant won't come up and force us backwards," Woolhouse said.

"I would not like to call which way the next (variant) would go, he added. "The next variant has to outcompete Omicron, and the main thing it will have to be able to do is evade natural immunity, and to evade vaccine-induced immunity," he said. "What we can't say in advance is how bad (it) will be."

"The way Omicron has been represented in some media reports, and even indirectly by some politicians -- who were a bit too quick to emphasize the 'we need to learn to live with it' message -- have contributed to this now quite widespread view that Omicron is less worrisome," he said.
The problem with that approach, many warn, is that some parts of the world are less able to take on a relaxed approach.

"By definition a pandemic is not over until it's over, for everyone, everywhere," Williams said. "Our attention now should increasingly focus on getting enough vaccines to those in low- and middle-income countries."

Vaccination coverage is lower in many poorer regions of the world -- particularly in eastern Europe, central Asia and large parts of Africa -- leaving those places especially susceptible to worrying new variants or more severe waves of hospitalizations.

https://www.cnn.com/2022/01/22/world/om ... index.html

[RiverDog]

I thought that this was interesting:

Gonzaga suspends John Stockton’s season tickets over mask rule

Gonzaga has suspended the basketball season tickets of John Stockton after the Hall of Fame point guard refused to comply with the university’s mask mandate.

Stockton, one of Gonzaga’s most prominent alums, confirmed the move in a Saturday interview with The Spokesman-Review.

“Basically, it came down to, they were asking me to wear a mask to the games and being a public figure, someone a little bit more visible, I stuck out in the crowd a little bit,” Stockton said. “And therefore they received complaints and felt like from whatever the higher-ups — those weren’t discussed, but from whatever it was higher up — they were going to have to either ask me to wear a mask or they were going to suspend my tickets.”

Stockton has come out against COVID-19 vaccines, mask mandates and other protective measures. Last June, he participated in a documentary titled “COVID and the Vaccine: Truth, Lies and Misconceptions Revealed.”

In the interview with the Spokane newspaper, Stockton claimed without evidence that more than 100 professional athletes have died after receiving the COVID-19 vaccine.

“I think it’s highly recorded now, there’s 150 I believe now, it’s over 100 professional athletes dead — professional athletes — the prime of their life, dropping dead that are vaccinated, right on the pitch, right on the field, right on the court,” Stockton said.

Experts have told the AP there is “no scientific evidence” that either COVID-19 or the mRNA vaccines have increased sudden cardiac arrest, often referred to as SCA, among athletes.

The false claim that large numbers of athletes are collapsing or dying due to COVID-19 vaccines has circulated on social media for months, particularly among anti-vaccine circles, and has been rejected by medical experts.

https://sports.mynorthwest.com/1560772/ ... BK2Xpqeg8E

[Aseahawkfan]

I could be wrong as my memory isn't any longer than my manhood, but I don't recall ever talking about Covid in terms of eradication. I've always thought of it in terms of ending the pandemic. It didn't take years to eradicate smallpox, it took decades. Same with polio, which is all but eradicated. Both were done via vaccines, which included mandates. I had to have a polio and smallpox shot to attend school. Eradication wasn't achieved by natural immunity. BTW, the polio vaccine story is quite interesting. American Experience on PBS had a documentary entitled "The Polio Crusade" that's a really good watch.

As far as the original intent of the vaccines, I believe that they were intended on preventing infection. It was only later, when we started seeing more breakthrough cases, that they were thought of in terms of preventing severe disease. One anti vaxxer that I was debating at the time termed it as "moving the goal posts, they don't know WTF they're doing, so now they're changing the purpose of the vaccines."

Vaccines don't "stop" transmission, but they greatly reduce it. As Hawktalk once pointed out, that's why the NFL has a different quarantine requirement for infected vaccinated players vs. infected unvaccinated.

I think people thought of it as "stop transmission." I know we did on here initially. We thought the vaccines could lead to eradication in the long-term.

Back then most of us did not read the study on the vaccines very close. We mostly just heard the words 90% plus efficacy and assumed it meant stopping infection. But that is not what the studies were based on.

Which is why they say the devil is in the details. Most Americans aren't trained to read scientific studies. It's why we get snookered all the time by health fads and diet fads and medications like ivermectin and hydroxycholoroquine. We don't understand why something is being done by doctors and latch into the talking heads pushing it. I recall researching why ivermectin and hydroxy were initially used by medical doctors and it wasn't some nefarious hoax like the left wing media was selling it. The reason that these drugs came up is because it is easier to find an existing drug that might treat COVID because the side effects are known and its easier to get emergency use authorization for an existing drug for a new disease than to use an experimental drug. But you had the liberal media selling the use of these drugs as though Trump thought it up and all the doctors trying these drugs out were a bunch of crazies. It wasn't anything of the kind. It was doctors trying desperately to find an existing drug that works as a possible remedy.

That's another reason why politicizing this whole pandemic was ridiculous. These two sides were so interested in one upping and taking the other down that they seeded the waters with tons of misinformation that Americans had to sift through to get some idea of what was going on. Terrible handling of the pandemic by these two parties. It really pisses me off. I don't know why we can't manage to find a third party to halt this clown show by these two pathetic parties that no longer deserve to be in power.

[Aseahawkfan]

Like it or not, and parse it any way you'd care to, the intentionally unvaccinated (not 3rd world and those unable to get vaccinated for whatever legitimate reason) are and will always be the villains of the Covid 19 story.

I don't understand why we need villains during a time like this to begin with. The media needs villains for ratings. Regular Americans need leaders who aren't playing political games to manipulate them to back them by villainizing the other side.

I certainly have no interest in viewing my friends who don't get vaccinated as villains. I don't plan to do it either.

[MackStrongIsMyHero]

I am all for the vaccines. I am fully vaccinated and boosted.

I also have had several people that I know personally who have recently contracted the virus. My bro and friend got it and they got it at work. They are in the military and everyone is vaccinated. My other friend and my MIL got it and they are both teachers. Fully vaccinated and boosted. A former coworker is also fully vaccinated and boosted is more careful than just about anyone I know, and he got it. I realize you have to go beyond primary contact, but it is really hard to identify the source. It’s possible to what ever number of degrees someone along the line of transmission was unvaccinated.

I think the unvaccinated are an easy target, but this virus is finding its way regardless.

[RiverDog]

I am all for the vaccines. I am fully vaccinated and boosted.

I also have had several people that I know personally who have recently contracted the virus. My bro and friend got it and they got it at work. They are in the military and everyone is vaccinated. My other friend and my MIL got it and they are both teachers. Fully vaccinated and boosted. A former coworker is also fully vaccinated and boosted is more careful than just about anyone I know, and he got it. I realize you have to go beyond primary contact, but it is really hard to identify the source. It’s possible to what ever number of degrees someone along the line of transmission was unvaccinated.

I think the unvaccinated are an easy target, but this virus is finding its way regardless.

Glad to hear that you're fully vaxed.

Contract tracing is pretty meaningless at this point as the virus is everywhere. Unless you're a virtual hermit like my wife and I, it's almost impossible to connect the dots and find the source, especially as contagious as this new variant is as it expands the infection radius.

What's more helpful is vaccinations, testing, and masking. We have a couple of packs of KN-95 masks, and I've found them more comfortable to wear than the homemade cloth masks I used to wear, especially this time of year when it's cold outside.

[NorthHawk]

If Covid-19 had not mutated or everyone was vaccinated before it did, it could have been stopped.
Now that it has mutated to the point that one virologist said it's almost a different virus it has changed so much, the strategy as ASF mentioned
is to protect the Health System and not overload it as best we can. There will still be transmissions and some vulnerable people will die from it,
but the vast majority will simply get a relatively minor infection if they are fully vaccinated. The unvaccinated, however are still causing problems
in the hospitals as they are still getting sick on a regular basis.
The virus has mutated so much that researchers say those that got the original Covid-19 virus aren't protected against the current strains and that
is also an added volume even though it's much smaller.

[MackStrongIsMyHero]

My thing is the villain is Covid. It’s a bad mamma jamma of a virus, and there’s no guarantee a high level of vaccination would have stopped it or stopped it from mutating not to mention the inherent difficulty of preparing a vaccination for production, distribution, and administering to hundreds of millions in this country alone. Covid had the advantage in this situation.

I wish the unvaccinated would get the message but they are pretty much set in what they are going to do. Tragically (yes, even though it is their fault) some of them are losing their lives over it and their peers are still adamantly against it.

[RiverDog]

My thing is the villain is Covid. It’s a bad mamma jamma of a virus, and there’s no guarantee a high level of vaccination would have stopped it or stopped it from mutating not to mention the inherent difficulty of preparing a vaccination for production, distribution, and administering to hundreds of millions in this country alone. Covid had the advantage in this situation.

I wish the unvaccinated would get the message but they are pretty much set in what they are going to do. Tragically (yes, even though it is their fault) some of them are losing their lives over it and their peers are still adamantly against it.

I agree, it's unlikely that the anti vaxxers are going to be moved off their position. To do so would be to admit that they were wrong, and most of us humans hate admitting to a mistake or misjudgment. I would be OK with their insolence if not for the fact that they are overwhelming our hospitals. Even spreading the disease is less of a concern today than it was 12 months ago as we have more tools to protect ourselves.

[Aseahawkfan]

If Covid-19 had not mutated or everyone was vaccinated before it did, it could have been stopped.
Now that it has mutated to the point that one virologist said it's almost a different virus it has changed so much, the strategy as ASF mentioned
is to protect the Health System and not overload it as best we can. There will still be transmissions and some vulnerable people will die from it,
but the vast majority will simply get a relatively minor infection if they are fully vaccinated. The unvaccinated, however are still causing problems
in the hospitals as they are still getting sick on a regular basis.
The virus has mutated so much that researchers say those that got the original Covid-19 virus aren't protected against the current strains and that
is also an added volume even though it's much smaller.

There is no proof that it would have been beaten. But there is a lot of proof the vaccines reduce the load on the healthcare system. I do believe that is true.

The problem with Coronaviruses like flu viruses is the speed of mutation is so fast and unpredictable that it is nearly impossible to vaccinate for. It's why we haven't gotten rid of the flu or the cold no matter how good at vaccines we've gotten.

The vaccines still help just like the flu shot helps every year. We have just have to keep developing and hoping for weaker mutations.

No one should be villainizing a bunch of people who have been living under pandemic conditions for going on two years and are tired, scared, and constantly bombarded by all types of misinformation and toxic politics. We can't produce a good leader right now. I'm not sure why. America used to produce leaders who knew how to run countries. Now we produce leaders based on who you hate the least.

[RiverDog]

There is no proof that it would have been beaten. But there is a lot of proof the vaccines reduce the load on the healthcare system. I do believe that is true.

The problem with Coronaviruses like flu viruses is the speed of mutation is so fast and unpredictable that it is nearly impossible to vaccinate for. It's why we haven't gotten rid of the flu or the cold no matter how good at vaccines we've gotten.

The vaccines still help just like the flu shot helps every year. We have just have to keep developing and hoping for weaker mutations.

No one should be villainizing a bunch of people who have been living under pandemic conditions for going on two years and are tired, scared, and constantly bombarded by all types of misinformation and toxic politics. We can't produce a good leader right now. I'm not sure why. America used to produce leaders who knew how to run countries. Now we produce leaders based on who you hate the least.

I agree with most of that, although like I mentioned to mykc, I don't have a lot of sympathy for those that choose not to get vaccinated being villainized. If it's something that bothers them that much, they have a very easy way of rectifying it.

Vaccines are an important tool in any health care situation. The vast majority of MD's will advise their patients to stay current on all of their vaccinations. All of the major churches in the United States, including the Catholics, Mormons, Muslim, and Jewsish faiths, have expressed their opinion that there is no moral conflict with taking any of the approved Covid vaccines. There is very, very little chance of a severe side effect, much less than many other approved drugs and treatments. Outside one's expression of personal choice, there isn't a very good reason not to get one.

[Aseahawkfan]

I agree with most of that, although like I mentioned to mykc, I don't have a lot of sympathy for those that choose not to get vaccinated being villainized. If it's something that bothers them that much, they have a very easy way of rectifying it.

Vaccines are an important tool in any health care situation. The vast majority of MD's will advise their patients to stay current on all of their vaccinations. All of the major churches in the United States, including the Catholics, Mormons, Muslim, and Jewsish faiths, have expressed their opinion that there is no moral conflict with taking any of the approved Covid vaccines. There is very, very little chance of a severe side effect, much less than many other approved drugs and treatments. Outside one's expression of personal choice, there isn't a very good reason not to get one.

There isn't a lot of reasons not to get one.

But we've spent the last four years with the Democrats and Republicans going after each other in the news more than any other time can I recall over The Idiot. The back and forth has been bad for years, but it really reached its apex during Trump. We've had tons of misinformation spread by both parties with each party claiming the other is the bigger liar. It's almost by luck the Democrats happened to fall on the pro-vaccine side because I honestly believe if Trump had heavily promoted vaccination and Republicans had taken it up and Trump tried to institute a vaccine mandate, the Democrats would have been against it just to go against Trump.

That's where it feels like we're at in American politics. Just be against the other guy even if the other guy is doing something completely sensible.

[RiverDog]

I agree with most of that, although like I mentioned to mykc, I don't have a lot of sympathy for those that choose not to get vaccinated being villainized. If it's something that bothers them that much, they have a very easy way of rectifying it.

Vaccines are an important tool in any health care situation. The vast majority of MD's will advise their patients to stay current on all of their vaccinations. All of the major churches in the United States, including the Catholics, Mormons, Muslim, and Jewsish faiths, have expressed their opinion that there is no moral conflict with taking any of the approved Covid vaccines. There is very, very little chance of a severe side effect, much less than many other approved drugs and treatments. Outside one's expression of personal choice, there isn't a very good reason not to get one.

There isn't a lot of reasons not to get one.

But we've spent the last four years with the Democrats and Republicans going after each other in the news more than any other time can I recall over The Idiot. The back and forth has been bad for years, but it really reached its apex during Trump. We've had tons of misinformation spread by both parties with each party claiming the other is the bigger liar. It's almost by luck the Democrats happened to fall on the pro-vaccine side because I honestly believe if Trump had heavily promoted vaccination and Republicans had taken it up and Trump tried to institute a vaccine mandate, the Democrats would have been against it just to go against Trump.

That's where it feels like we're at in American politics. Just be against the other guy even if the other guy is doing something completely sensible.

I don't understand why Trump didn't come out more forcefully on the pro vaccine side. He took his jab in private when he should have made a big deal out of it. Had he played it that way, it might have made a difference in hesitancy. Heck, he wants them to name the vaccine after him. It was one of the very few things that his administration did right, that they got behind the development of the vaccine very early and were able to get it to market in record time. Any other POTUS would have taken the jab then appeared in a PSA with the other former Presidents to promote it. But Trump is too much of an asshole to stand on the stage with his peers as he feels like he's lowering himself to their level.

I'm not sure if it was luck that conservatives ended up on one side and liberals on the other, but I do agree that it could have come out differently. The pro choice movement has many of the same threads as the anti vaxers: "My body, my choice". But the current mood definitely has the conservatives on the opposite side of science and medicine. Conservatives don't trust scientists on climate change so it makes sense that they wouldn't trust modern medicine on the vaccine and there's an inbred hatred of the government over the 2nd Amendment. Some of that I can sympathize with, but at this point, with literally billions having taken the shot, there's no reasonable argument about the safety of the poke and by July, its effectiveness was as clear as day.

[Aseahawkfan]

I don't understand why Trump didn't come out more forcefully on the pro vaccine side. He took his jab in private when he should have made a big deal out of it. Had he played it that way, it might have made a difference in hesitancy. Heck, he wants them to name the vaccine after him. It was one of the very few things that his administration did right, that they got behind the development of the vaccine very early and were able to get it to market in record time. Any other POTUS would have taken the jab then appeared in a PSA with the other former Presidents to promote it. But Trump is too much of an asshole to stand on the stage with his peers as he feels like he's lowering himself to their level.

I'm not sure if it was luck that conservatives ended up on one side and liberals on the other, but I do agree that it could have come out differently. The pro choice movement has many of the same threads as the anti vaxers: "My body, my choice". But the current mood definitely has the conservatives on the opposite side of science and medicine. Conservatives don't trust scientists on climate change so it makes sense that they wouldn't trust modern medicine on the vaccine and there's an inbred hatred of the government over the 2nd Amendment. Some of that I can sympathize with, but at this point, with literally billions having taken the shot, there's no reasonable argument about the safety of the poke and by July, its effectiveness was as clear as day.

Trump runs his life by polls and ratings. He has people around him that most of us don't even know about constantly updating him on what polls and ratings are doing after his speeches and stances. His image is carefully crafted, controlled, and tracked by him and his people. All this stuff you read in the press or from 'sources" is mostly BS. Trump is and has always been about image and controlling and building that image all carefully crafted and tracked. He's been doing this for 40 plus years whether to turn him into a mega-TV personality or win The White House. The main reason he backed off the vaccines is the polls and ratings told him it was a "losing stance." And if it helps him win back The White House in 2024, then his poll and tracking will be right.

Trump doesn't do things for the good of others. He does things as part of a plan with a goal him and his people are tracking and orchestrating.

I would have bet you money had Trump pushed the vaccines while in office the Democrats would have come up with some reason why he was wrong and used it as a means to attack him. Trump was never right to the Democrats on anything while he was in office. The man could have cured cancer and the liberal media and Democrats would have found a way to spin it into a negative. Trump would have taken their bait and made lots of stupid comments during the fight. It was all so predictable with Trump shortly after he took office. The endless fights were part of having him as president. He would never backdown or take the high road and the Democrats and liberal media just loved going after him and provoking him because it was so easy to do. Made America look as stupid as ever looked all the way around, a real clown show that made the two parties look as pathetic as I've ever seen them look. The obvious lies. The extreme positions. The name calling. It was a like a bunch of old crazy people were involved in some petty fighting in Washington D.C. and none of them wanted to act like a grown up.

[RiverDog]

Trump runs his life by polls and ratings. He has people around him that most of us don't even know about constantly updating him on what polls and ratings are doing after his speeches and stances. His image is carefully crafted, controlled, and tracked by him and his people. All this stuff you read in the press or from 'sources" is mostly BS. Trump is and has always been about image and controlling and building that image all carefully crafted and tracked. He's been doing this for 40 plus years whether to turn him into a mega-TV personality or win The White House. The main reason he backed off the vaccines is the polls and ratings told him it was a "losing stance." And if it helps him win back The White House in 2024, then his poll and tracking will be right.

Trump doesn't do things for the good of others. He does things as part of a plan with a goal him and his people are tracking and orchestrating.

I would have bet you money had Trump pushed the vaccines while in office the Democrats would have come up with some reason why he was wrong and used it as a means to attack him. Trump was never right to the Democrats on anything while he was in office. The man could have cured cancer and the liberal media and Democrats would have found a way to spin it into a negative. Trump would have taken their bait and made lots of stupid comments during the fight. It was all so predictable with Trump shortly after he took office. The endless fights were part of having him as president. He would never backdown or take the high road and the Democrats and liberal media just loved going after him and provoking him because it was so easy to do. Made America look as stupid as ever looked all the way around, a real clown show that made the two parties look as pathetic as I've ever seen them look. The obvious lies. The extreme positions. The name calling. It was a like a bunch of old crazy people were involved in some petty fighting in Washington D.C. and none of them wanted to act like a grown up.

All I know about Trump is that everything he does centers around himself. It's all about him. If he knew that Option A would result in gaining popularity but would result in a couple million deaths while Option B would result in no deaths but not the popularity bump, he'd take Option A. He doesn't do anything unless it's in his own best interest. He's as selfish of a person that I've ever seen in public life.

[Aseahawkfan]

All I know about Trump is that everything he does centers around himself. It's all about him. If he knew that Option A would result in gaining popularity but would result in a couple million deaths while Option B would result in no deaths but not the popularity bump, he'd take Option A. He doesn't do anything unless it's in his own best interest. He's as selfish of a person that I've ever seen in public life.

And yet so many fall for his BS because he sells them using what they want to hear. I know most politicians are lawyers, but salesman are worse than lawyers. Not by much, but still worse.

Never vote for a salesman. They don't believe they're lying because they consider lying "selling."

[RiverDog]

It looks like masks are going away:

The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention announced Friday it would change its recommendations to remove or ease mask mandates in communities it deems at lower risk of COVID-19 spread.

Under the new guidelines, more than half of counties in the United States will be reclassified as low or medium risk. About 70 percent of the U.S. population lives in these counties, CDC officials told reporters. The guidelines continue a trend of lessening mask mandates that many states and cities have already began themselves.

https://www.newsweek.com/cdc-relaxes-ma ... ll-1682815

I've been for dropping the mandates for quite some time. First of all, the most serious of cases are in those that have chosen not to get vaccinated, and for most everyone else, the risk is nothing more than a mild cold. Secondly, if a person is at an increased risk, they can wear a N95 or KN95 mask to protect themselves. They are extremely cheap and plentiful.

We had a real big incident at one our school districts here in the Tri Cities over masks. The school board voted to defy the state mask mandate and in response, the superintendent shut down all the schools for two days, outraging parents:

Richland schools were closed Wednesday after a decision by the school board to defy the state requirement that students wear masks inside buildings.

The emergency move followed a surprise vote by board members Semi Bird, Audra Byrd and Kari Williams to go "mask optional" during a special Tuesday meeting.

The item was not on the meeting agenda, giving the public no chance to know it was going to be discussed. The meeting had been scheduled to talk about a resolution on the COVID vaccine process.

The legality of the move was raised immediately by former longtime board president Rick Jansons.

"I believe this is black and white illegal," Jansons said.

Bird made the motion at the beginning of the meeting to go to "mask choice" effective immediately.

District officials said they need to plan a path forward as state officials are already working on warning letters that could threaten their funding.

https://www.tri-cityherald.com/news/loc ... 25643.html

The school board, in a closed door session and possibly in violation of state meeting laws, voted 3-2 to do away with the mask mandate even though the state still required it. The superintendent, acting on advice of legal counsel that cautioned that the district could be in serious legal trouble as insurance companies could refuse to cover them and could jeopardize funding from the state and federal governments, closed the schools rather than comply with the school board's decision. Parents were outraged, started protesting both the decision to close the schools and the school board's decision to drop the mandate. The school board backed down and re-instated the mandate, but it's not over yet as there's a petition circulating to recall the board members that voted to drop the mandates.