Ukraine

[Aseahawkfan]

You can't compare America's involvement in WW2 to the subsequent proxy wars since then. First off, in WW2, we were attacked directly before entering, suffering over 2,000 American deaths, which represented a clear threat that everyone could understand. Literally overnight, the Pearl Harbor attack galvanized public opinion. Prior to then, there was a very sizable anti war sentiment against our involvement. Without Pearl Harbor, we may not have entered the war, or at least not prosecuted it with the vengeance that we did and stayed the course for nearly 4 years.

Secondly, it was a different day and time. The press was obedient servants of the government and rarely wrote anything negative about our participation. Atrocities on our side were never spoken of. No TV images beamed directly into the living rooms on the home front. And even in that environment, by the time August of 1945 had rolled around, public sentiment had begun to change. Had Japan not surrendered when they did, had we not dropped the two nukes and had to invade their home islands, our country likely would not have continued to support a policy of unconditional surrender.

You can blame a lot of things on the younger generations, but you can't blame our attitude towards these proxy wars on the other side of the ocean on them. We've always had that attitude, going all the way back to the founding of the nation when George Washington advised the country to avoid foreign entanglements.

A retired general, Wesley Clark, wrote a very good article regarding the prosecution of the war in Ukraine that I suggest that you and the others read. Here's a couple of excerpts that highlights my concerns:

But what might appear to be a thus-far brilliantly managed containment of Russian aggression is balanced on a welter of conflicting concerns and seems to lack a specific goal.

The emerging strategy seems aimed at "bleeding out" the Russian aggression, albeit at a very high cost in Ukrainian casualties, even though virtually every analysis shows that Putin is driven by geostrategic aims and is not deterred by huge losses.

The war has thus become fundamentally a war of resources – what Russia can mobilize versus what the West can and will provide. But can Putin be persuaded to give up before Ukraine loses the support of the West?

Most wars are usually ended by negotiations, but negotiations ensue only when one side or the other foresees losing on the battlefield, and the outcome of such negotiations reflects battlefield outcomes. Putin is determined, but he is not irrational. He must be convinced he is losing to be persuaded to come to the negotiating table.

Simply holding the line in Donbas is unlikely to be sufficient, no matter the extent of Russian losses. This argues for a more pointed strategy: One that enables Ukraine to threaten what Putin most values – Crimea – while also holding in Donbas. With Crimea, Russia achieves military dominance of the Black Sea, control over its natural resources, as well as threatening Ukraine's economic lifeline to the West. But Crimea is not Russia’s; it is legally part of Ukraine. It was seized in early 2014 by a Russian military operation. The West has maintained selective sanctions on Russia for nearly nine years to punish Russian aggression there.

In coming months, Ukraine should receive more of the tools it needs to counterattack successfully, closing the land bridge and advancing into Crimea.

Absent this reinforcement of Ukrainian capabilities, the battle in Ukraine is likely to seesaw back and forth inconclusively into the next year, with increasing risks of Western frustration and Russian escalation.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/ ... 322437002/

In other words, Ukraine can't win this simply by fighting a war of attrition. Putin doesn't care how many men and materials he expends in the war and he doesn't have to worry about attitudes and opinions on his home front, at least not to the same degree as the West does. He knows that we do not have the stomach for a years long effort. The Ukrainians need to go on the offensive, start attacking assets that Putin values, put his regime at risk, make him start sweating.

This is what I was talking about in my previous remarks. You guys are ignoring a political reality. You can't just say "We stay the course until the mission is completed" or "You can't set an arbitrary time limit". To do so is the equivalent of sticking your heads in the sand. The time factor is NOT arbitrary. The problem is the 2024 elections, the campaign of which begins in earnest about this time next year. If something isn't done by then to at least show some positive results, Biden is going to lose support and it will pave the way for another 4 years of Trump.

I don't blame the younger generation. I blame your generation to be honest with you. You guys dropped the ball big time as far as maintaining the culture of this nation while getting rid of the trash parts. Your generation brought in the drug culture, the anti-war movement that caused us to fail in Vietnam and started this trend of becoming involved in wars for Democracy but not finishing them, and a variety of other negative cultural paradigms that have afflicted this nation now for decades and continuing. You even dropped the ball at parenting with your turning divorce commonplace and males of that 60s generation and their midlife crisis "I want to date younger girls and not take care of my family" rubbish attitude.

World War 2 taught a lesson that if we try to stay out of world affairs, other nations build up power and eventually it makes it way to our shores. That lesson keeps being forgotten by Americans who want to keep thinking these folks will go away, but the Putin's and Xi's know this and use it to their advantage until they build up enough power to shift world power. Then we have an even more expensive and painful problem to deal with down the line.

I'm well aware of the elections. Good leaders do not bow to the pressure of elections. They hold the course knowing that long-term it will work out better if we halt Putin before he rebuilds Russia into a power capable of expanding into Europe. I imagine we will go to sleep again thinking, "Oh Putin won't go into Europe. Or any future strongman leader wanting to emulate Putin won't do worse, they won't possibly do that because....because...because..." with no reason given. The fact is America is getting pressed from China and Russia to see how far they can push and they'll keep pushing until they beat us.

Not taking a stand now is just allowing them to build up more power and status in the world for other warmonger dictators who want to push back against American dominance to reform the world power structure. If Americans keep overlooking these guys, they're going to suffer an even greater surprise like Pearl Harbor or 9/11.

Putin has already retaken many of the old Soviet/Russian Empire territories. Now his plan is to take Ukraine. You think if he retakes these areas that future Russian leaders continue to press us? Or China look across and go, "Time to retake Taiwan. America won't stand against us, they are weak now. All we need to do is wait until the next election cycle, manipulate the election with propaganda, then those idiots will be too divided to stand against our moves."

The game of world power is pretty far from over. America is pretty far from winning it and continuing to give ground. Just like in the past when they have practiced isolationism, Americans are going to find out that evil men like Putin and Xi and Kim John and the Iranian regime are still at work trying to undermine American power and push back against us until they can tear it down. They don't work a few election cycles, they plan for decades and very long-term because their leaders don't change every 4 yeas and they don't allow political idiots like Tucker Carlson or late night talk show hosts to divide their political objectives.

But hey, you keep thinking it's a smart plan to have a limit on time. But me, I know what the world power game is and we should stand hard on Ukraine. If either of these parties have a politically intelligent person left in them, they should work together to ensure we stand hard on Ukraine. Europe should also back us and push Putin back from his world power game before someone after him decides to push it farther and do worse.

[RiverDog]

I don't blame the younger generation. I blame your generation to be honest with you. You guys dropped the ball big time as far as maintaining the culture of this nation while getting rid of the trash parts. Your generation brought in the drug culture, the anti-war movement that caused us to fail in Vietnam and started this trend of becoming involved in wars for Democracy but not finishing them, and a variety of other negative cultural paradigms that have afflicted this nation now for decades and continuing. You even dropped the ball at parenting with your turning divorce commonplace and males of that 60s generation and their midlife crisis "I want to date younger girls and not take care of my family" rubbish attitude.

I don't disagree with that at all, except as it applies to the cold war. That was "the greatest generation's" baby, people like Truman, Ike, Kennedy, Johnson, Nixon, Ford, Carter, Reagan, Bush 41, etc who tried to apply the lessons of WW2 to the new environment of the 2nd half of the 20th century.

World War 2 taught a lesson that if we try to stay out of world affairs, other nations build up power and eventually it makes it way to our shores. That lesson keeps being forgotten by Americans who want to keep thinking these folks will go away, but the Putin's and Xi's know this and use it to their advantage until they build up enough power to shift world power. Then we have an even more expensive and painful problem to deal with down the line.

World War 2 is completely irrelevant to the current issue for reasons discussed earlier. Prior to 1945, there was no threat of nuclear annihilation.

I'm well aware of the elections. Good leaders do not bow to the pressure of elections. They hold the course knowing that long-term it will work out better if we halt Putin before he rebuilds Russia into a power capable of expanding into Europe. I imagine we will go to sleep again thinking, "Oh Putin won't go into Europe. Or any future strongman leader wanting to emulate Putin won't do worse, they won't possibly do that because....because...because..." with no reason given. The fact is America is getting pressed from China and Russia to see how far they can push and they'll keep pushing until they beat us.

Not taking a stand now is just allowing them to build up more power and status in the world for other warmonger dictators who want to push back against American dominance to reform the world power structure. If Americans keep overlooking these guys, they're going to suffer an even greater surprise like Pearl Harbor or 9/11.

Putin has already retaken many of the old Soviet/Russian Empire territories. Now his plan is to take Ukraine. You think if he retakes these areas that future Russian leaders continue to press us? Or China look across and go, "Time to retake Taiwan. America won't stand against us, they are weak now. All we need to do is wait until the next election cycle, manipulate the election with propaganda, then those idiots will be too divided to stand against our moves."

The game of world power is pretty far from over. America is pretty far from winning it and continuing to give ground. Just like in the past when they have practiced isolationism, Americans are going to find out that evil men like Putin and Xi and Kim John and the Iranian regime are still at work trying to undermine American power and push back against us until they can tear it down. They don't work a few election cycles, they plan for decades and very long-term because their leaders don't change every 4 yeas and they don't allow political idiots like Tucker Carlson or late night talk show hosts to divide their political objectives.

But hey, you keep thinking it's a smart plan to have a limit on time. But me, I know what the world power game is and we should stand hard on Ukraine. If either of these parties have a politically intelligent person left in them, they should work together to ensure we stand hard on Ukraine. Europe should also back us and push Putin back from his world power game before someone after him decides to push it farther and do worse.

I never once said anything like that it was "a smart plan to have a limit on time." I'm saying that it's an undeniable reality, a condition we can't changed and that we're going to have to deal with no differently than having to deal with the weather or the phase of the moon.

And as I keep saying, I agree with you from a moral standpoint. But as a practical matter, your position is untenable.

[Aseahawkfan]

World War 2 is completely irrelevant to the current issue for reasons discussed earlier. Prior to 1945, there was no threat of nuclear annihilation.

It is pretty far from irrelevant. This is one long global power game that has not been settled dating back to that time and before. It's ongoing. Whether or not there is nuclear annihilation is irrelevant because nuclear war is going to happen. They were built. They are in place. At some point some lunatic is going to test them in warfare. It is as inevitable as the sun rising. It's going to be a level of death that cannot be matched by ancient times.

This is part of a pick your side world power game we've been playing for a long, long time. Those other sides don't forget even as they adjust.

China and Russia will never accept America as the king and will never embrace our culture in their nation. They want control of their sphere of influence and if we allow it, they will build up power within the former Soviet/Russian Empire nations until they can do more. China the same with control in that region. If you don't spend the resources to break them while they're weak, you'll be trying to break them while the cost will be a great deal higher than it is now.

I never once said anything like that it was "a smart plan to have a limit on time." I'm saying that it's an undeniable reality, a condition we can't changed and that we're going to have to deal with no differently than having to deal with the weather or the phase of the moon.

And as I keep saying, I agree with you from a moral standpoint. But as a practical matter, your position is untenable.

That's why I think we'll likely do some political move to make it seem like we achieved something when we didn't. Russia and China will continue to build up power. When things do hit the fan, it will be many times worse than now with a cost far, far higher. Once again the modern historians will make some excuse for why something didn't get done like they did for FDR and Truman not going after Stalin, which costs millions of lives and billions of dollars to reach the point we're at now as Russia and China take the investment in their nations and use it against us to continue to build power and wealth to undo American power.

It's like watching idiots continue to repeat the same mistakes:

1. Osama Bin Laden: We build him up to fight against Russians in Afghanistan, he leads a terrorist attack on us. We have to go to war to get rid of him.

2. We put Saddam Hussein in power. Then we have to take him out.

It's an endless stream of half-measures that eventually lead to a much higher cost to eventually deal with the far worse problem these people become when you don't stop them early before they obtain a great deal more power and influence after you've built them up.

Putin was acting much like a drug dealer with Europe when he pulled the rug out of the energy market to try to force them to "ignore" his attack on Ukraine. China did much the same with us flexing their influence all the time while knowing we had a massive reliance on them for all types of manufacturing we should have never sent over there.

Here we are the American people finding out about it after the fact because we're all too busy listening to Fox News and CNN lead us around by our noses overly concerned about immigrants, men becoming women, and hating billionaires for turning their hard work and investment of time, money, and energy into economic opportunity for many within the nation.

It's epic level failure on the part of the American people to stay awake and prove "The People" should govern.

[RiverDog]

I never once said anything like that it was "a smart plan to have a limit on time." I'm saying that it's an undeniable reality, a condition we can't changed and that we're going to have to deal with no differently than having to deal with the weather or the phase of the moon.

And as I keep saying, I agree with you from a moral standpoint. But as a practical matter, your position is untenable.

That's why I think we'll likely do some political move to make it seem like we achieved something when we didn't. Russia and China will continue to build up power. When things do hit the fan, it will be many times worse than now with a cost far, far higher. Once again the modern historians will make some excuse for why something didn't get done like they did for FDR and Truman not going after Stalin, which costs millions of lives and billions of dollars to reach the point we're at now as Russia and China take the investment in their nations and use it against us to continue to build power and wealth to undo American power.

It's like watching idiots continue to repeat the same mistakes:

1. Osama Bin Laden: We build him up to fight against Russians in Afghanistan, he leads a terrorist attack on us. We have to go to war to get rid of him.

2. We put Saddam Hussein in power. Then we have to take him out.

It's an endless stream of half-measures that eventually lead to a much higher cost to eventually deal with the far worse problem these people become when you don't stop them early before they obtain a great deal more power and influence after you've built them up.

Putin was acting much like a drug dealer with Europe when he pulled the rug out of the energy market to try to force them to "ignore" his attack on Ukraine. China did much the same with us flexing their influence all the time while knowing we had a massive reliance on them for all types of manufacturing we should have never sent over there.

Here we are the American people finding out about it after the fact because we're all too busy listening to Fox News and CNN lead us around by our noses overly concerned about immigrants, men becoming women, and hating billionaires for turning their hard work and investment of time, money, and energy into economic opportunity for many within the nation.

It's epic level failure on the part of the American people to stay awake and prove "The People" should govern.

That's one of the weaknesses of a democratic society. Our leaders have to respect the will of the masses, which often times isn't the best path forward. Every President from Washington forward has had to deal with the dilemma of doing the right thing vs. doing what will get them elected, and it's more than just foreign policy. Social Security, for example needs some sort of major overhaul to make it sustainable and has so for decades, and most responsible leaders recognize that fact. But it's always been considered the third rail of politics: Touch it and you're dead.

[Aseahawkfan]

I wonder if the server Yoder runs this on is dying. Hard to get on here.

I'm done with DeSantis. He came out against the Ukraine War. GOP has lost all the foreign policy experts who understand checking tyrants as they try to expand their power is a recipe for a much worse war later on. Not sure why Americans keep forgetting lesson, but at least Biden seems to understand not setting a line against Putin is a bad foreign policy decision. I wonder if Putin will successfully propagandize Americans that East Germany is Russian territory and they should be allowed to take it back as well before American Idiot Trumplicans wake up to why men like Reagan and Bush Sr. understood a strong foreign policy keeps the peace in the world.

[RiverDog]

I wonder if the server Yoder runs this on is dying. Hard to get on here.

It varies. There's been times that the server is slower than molasses, and other times, like right now, when it's not bad at all. ObS complained about it in the main forum.

I'm done with DeSantis. He came out against the Ukraine War. GOP has lost all the foreign policy experts who understand checking tyrants as they try to expand their power is a recipe for a much worse war later on. Not sure why Americans keep forgetting lesson, but at least Biden seems to understand not setting a line against Putin is a bad foreign policy decision. I wonder if Putin will successfully propagandize Americans that East Germany is Russian territory and they should be allowed to take it back as well before American Idiot Trumplicans wake up to why men like Reagan and Bush Sr. understood a strong foreign policy keeps the peace in the world.

What did I tell you? The country is losing patience with the war in Ukraine. DeSantis senses this, or more likely, his advisors have told him that there's an opportunity for him to bite into Biden over his unconditional support of Ukraine. I didn't like DeSantis in the first place so his stance on Ukraine has no effect on me. The only way I'll vote for him is if the alternative is Trump.

[Aseahawkfan]

What did I tell you? The country is losing patience with the war in Ukraine. DeSantis senses this, or more likely, his advisors have told him that there's an opportunity for him to bite into Biden over his unconditional support of Ukraine. I didn't like DeSantis in the first place so his stance on Ukraine has no effect on me. The only way I'll vote for him is if the alternative is Trump.

That's not what is occurring.

What happened is the Republican Party is now infested with anti-immigrant isolationists selling that propaganda as they have done in the past. Short-sighted people with little to no knowledge of world affairs or history. I believe the foreign propaganda arms of places like China and Russia have now successfully wormed their way into the Republican Party as they did into the Democratic Party back in the 60s. It is well known and documented that the Communist and Socialist nation intelligence arms of other nations infected the Democratic Party with the anti-War sentiment that caused us to pull out of Vietnam. Those same elements have found how to propagandize Republicans into the anti-War mentality to encourage America to increase isolationist policy for years under the selfish attitude "it's not our business" so they have less interference when they want to expand their power.

This occurred in early America pre-WW 1 and post-WW2 and every time in-between. Every time we go isolationist, other nations view this as a go signal to start expanding their power.

It's not accidental. It's a deliberate attempt to undermine America same as the Democratic anti-War movement during the 60s was a deliberate attempt by Communist and Socialists to reduce our power and open us up to influence from those nations. Americans think we're unassailable and other nations know that is not true. The best way to undermine America is propagandize their people given the open information environment and the ability of foreign entities to own our news stations or pieces of them and easily release propaganda over the internet.

This is all deliberate. It's going to cost us in the long run as it always has. Same as Vietnam started a "hate America" movement we've been dealing with for decades now where liberal historians spend the majority of their time focused on making sure Americans know what is bad about their nation rather than providing a balanced viewpoint of the good we did around the world. They offer no alternatives nations having done better than America, but they love to tear down ideas of American exceptionalism or the age of peace and prosperity ushered in by America that is now being destabilized as foreign powers look across the sea and see fading U.S. power and a divided nation with leaders taking people in the wrong direction.

It isn't the first time it's happened, won't be the last, at least hopefully it won't be the last. But foreign propaganda successfully turning both political parties into anti-war parties is one of the stupidest things I've seen given Russia, China, Iran, North Korea, and several other nations are becoming even more militant and aggressive while we become less so and more isolated in our foreign policy.

[RiverDog]

What did I tell you? The country is losing patience with the war in Ukraine. DeSantis senses this, or more likely, his advisors have told him that there's an opportunity for him to bite into Biden over his unconditional support of Ukraine. I didn't like DeSantis in the first place so his stance on Ukraine has no effect on me. The only way I'll vote for him is if the alternative is Trump.

That's not what is occurring.

Yes, it is what's happening. I don't care what you attribute it to, the fact is that support is softening:

Polls from the Associated Press, Pew Research and Fox News show rising skepticism toward the massive aid packages the Biden administration has made a habit of delivering to Ukraine. Support for such aid among Americans fell from 60% in May 2022 to just 48% today (March 2nd), according to the AP.

Meanwhile, the share of Americans who say the U.S. has already given too much to Ukraine has risen from just 7% in March 2022 to 26% today, according to Pew.

Unless you want to argue about their legitimacy, every poll that's queried the public on that subject has noted a gradual, continuous softening of support.

What happened is the Republican Party is now infested with anti-immigrant isolationists selling that propaganda as they have done in the past. Short-sighted people with little to no knowledge of world affairs or history. I believe the foreign propaganda arms of places like China and Russia have now successfully wormed their way into the Republican Party as they did into the Democratic Party back in the 60s. It is well known and documented that the Communist and Socialist nation intelligence arms of other nations infected the Democratic Party with the anti-War sentiment that caused us to pull out of Vietnam. Those same elements have found how to propagandize Republicans into the anti-War mentality to encourage America to increase isolationist policy for years under the selfish attitude "it's not our business" so they have less interference when they want to expand their power.

This occurred in early America pre-WW 1 and post-WW2 and every time in-between. Every time we go isolationist, other nations view this as a go signal to start expanding their power.

It's not accidental. It's a deliberate attempt to undermine America same as the Democratic anti-War movement during the 60s was a deliberate attempt by Communist and Socialists to reduce our power and open us up to influence from those nations. Americans think we're unassailable and other nations know that is not true. The best way to undermine America is propagandize their people given the open information environment and the ability of foreign entities to own our news stations or pieces of them and easily release propaganda over the internet.

This is all deliberate. It's going to cost us in the long run as it always has. Same as Vietnam started a "hate America" movement we've been dealing with for decades now where liberal historians spend the majority of their time focused on making sure Americans know what is bad about their nation rather than providing a balanced viewpoint of the good we did around the world. They offer no alternatives nations having done better than America, but they love to tear down ideas of American exceptionalism or the age of peace and prosperity ushered in by America that is now being destabilized as foreign powers look across the sea and see fading U.S. power and a divided nation with leaders taking people in the wrong direction.

It isn't the first time it's happened, won't be the last, at least hopefully it won't be the last. But foreign propaganda successfully turning both political parties into anti-war parties is one of the stupidest things I've seen given Russia, China, Iran, North Korea, and several other nations are becoming even more militant and aggressive while we become less so and more isolated in our foreign policy.

I don't necessarily disagree with anything you've said. My point is that DeSantis has wet his index and middle fingers, shoved them high in the air, detected which way the wind is blowing, and has acted accordingly. You're talking about a guy that is a hard-core military man, a former officer and Navy seal, and knowing that mindset, I have a hard time believing that he doesn't have some strong opinions about Russian aggression. But he is a consummate politician. He's not leading public opinion, he's following it.

DeSantis sees an opportunity to make some headway against Biden and he'll compromise his principles in order to achieve political success. He reminds me a lot of Bill Clinton, whom I used to describe as a weathervane with no moral compass and wouldn't decide where to have lunch until he first checked to see what the polls had to say about the restaurant. He was preoccupied with his popularity.

DeSantis is a showboat, and this is just another headline grabbing stunt of his.

[Aseahawkfan]

Yes, it is what's happening. I don't care what you attribute it to, the fact is that support is softening:

Polls from the Associated Press, Pew Research and Fox News show rising skepticism toward the massive aid packages the Biden administration has made a habit of delivering to Ukraine. Support for such aid among Americans fell from 60% in May 2022 to just 48% today (March 2nd), according to the AP.

Meanwhile, the share of Americans who say the U.S. has already given too much to Ukraine has risen from just 7% in March 2022 to 26% today, according to Pew.

Unless you want to argue about their legitimacy, every poll that's queried the public on that subject has noted a gradual, continuous softening of support.

I don't give a crap what the poll says.

What is causing the change is the big concern and the change is being caused by successful propaganda campaigns by foreign powers accessing our media apparatus to successfully spread their message and get Americans to back off supporting Ukraine and push an anti-War movement that is going to be extremely costly to use down the line.

Americans are being manipulated from abroad. It's why so many other nations are shutting down foreign propaganda in their nations because they know what it can do and are watching successful anti-war and anti-Ukraine campaigns by paid media. Support is softening because of Republican rhetoric, not because "Republican Americans are just tired of it."

Americans are being manipulated by carefully crafted anti-Ukraine propaganda paid for likely by Russian assets within the Republican media arms. I listened to friends of mine go from supporting Ukraine to literally espousing Russian propaganda heard on conservative radio talk show hosts that if you access Russian media is being parroted across the Sea. That is a huge concern to me. If our foreign competitors can successfully manipulate voters against military action to stem tyranny and the increase in power of foreign competitors, we're in a lot of trouble and it means we have a lot of traitorous folks in the Democratic and Republican media arms.

I don't necessarily disagree with anything you've said. My point is that DeSantis has wet his index and middle fingers, shoved them high in the air, detected which way the wind is blowing, and has acted accordingly. You're talking about a guy that is a hard-core military man, a former officer and Navy seal, and knowing that mindset, I have a hard time believing that he doesn't have some strong opinions about Russian aggression. But he is a consummate politician. He's not leading public opinion, he's following it.

DeSantis sees an opportunity to make some headway against Biden and he'll compromise his principles in order to achieve political success. He reminds me a lot of Bill Clinton, whom I used to describe as a weathervane with no moral compass and wouldn't decide where to have lunch until he first checked to see what the polls had to say about the restaurant. He was preoccupied with his popularity.

DeSantis is a showboat, and this is just another headline grabbing stunt of his.

DeSantis is an idiot then and I don't plan to vote for him. I hope he isn't a traitor. Right now we have literal traitors to this nation selling Russian propaganda on our media stations that millions of Americans are being influenced by. This is should be of huge concern to Americans.

[c_hawkbob]

We won the cold war because both sides (of our political paradigm) understood things like national and global security. Now it's almost as though the two sides are rooting against each other. When I was in the Navy and voting Republican I never in a million years would have believed them becoming the pro-Russian party... we'd have lost the cold war for sure in todays political climate.

[NorthHawk]

Some politicians will sell their soul (and their supporters) to get votes.
That’s the current state of the Republican party. Anything to win, no matter the consequences and about 40% of the people will vote for them.

[mykc14]

We won the cold war because both sides (of our political paradigm) understood things like national and global security. Now it's almost as though the two sides are rooting against each other. When I was in the Navy and voting Republican I never in a million years would have believed them becoming the pro-Russian party... we'd have lost the cold war for sure in todays political climate.

This is becoming the huge issue in our country. Republicans are anti-whatever the Democrats want and vice-versa. This is being fueled by Liberal and Conservative media pushing anti-other agenda. Watching/reading the same news segment on a liberal vs. Conservative news source is like watching two completely different events. We are so divided it seems impossible to get back together without a major unifying event and even at that we probably couldn't have both sides agree on what to do next.

[mykc14]

Some politicians will sell their soul (and their supporters) to get votes.
That’s the current state of the Republican party. Anything to win, no matter the consequences and about 40% of the people will vote for them.

That's the current state of both parties.

[RiverDog]

We won the cold war because both sides (of our political paradigm) understood things like national and global security. Now it's almost as though the two sides are rooting against each other. When I was in the Navy and voting Republican I never in a million years would have believed them becoming the pro-Russian party... we'd have lost the cold war for sure in todays political climate.

This is becoming the huge issue in our country. Republicans are anti-whatever the Democrats want and vice-versa. This is being fueled by Liberal and Conservative media pushing anti-other agenda. Watching/reading the same news segment on a liberal vs. Conservative news source is like watching two completely different events. We are so divided it seems impossible to get back together without a major unifying event and even at that we probably couldn't have both sides agree on what to do next.

I'm with mykc on this one. Although I'd put a little more weight on the R's, both parties are to blame for this current divisiveness we're going through, and yes, it's fueled by the media, social as well as mainstream, cable, etc. Hell, we couldn't even come to an agreement on how to fight the virus, a challenge that should have been well understood and clearly defined. Short of an all-out war or another 9/11, I don't see much hope of this country regaining any semblance of unity in my lifetime.

And back to Ukraine, I agree that we should do everything possible short of a nuclear strike to roll back the Russians. I wouldn't even necessarily be against sending our own troops in some sort of support role. But that's an idealistic and not a realistic POV. Whether you like it or not, the country will eventually lose their appetite for supporting Ukraine. If Biden continues his "for as long as it takes give 'em a blank check" approach, he's going to find himself out of a job, a scenario that may happen anyway even if he is successful in rolling back the Russians. They're going to have to do something to change the current paradigm.

[Aseahawkfan]

What I know is my mom who listens too much to conservative radio went from liking Zelensky to hating him while listening to a conservative radio talk show hosts. I can only surmise that due to Trump's relationship with Putin, certain elements in the Republican conservative arm associated with Trump are parroting his garbage.

What I know for certain is the direction of the world is pretty far from settled. If we want to remain a free people and create a free world, you should never allow a tyrant like Putin to continue his aggressive, militaristic expansion or it's going to embolden others and make America seem weak until we are backed into a corner and forced to settle a far worse war.

I am damn tired of Europe acting only in their own self-interests rather than standing against aggressors like Putin. Do they citizens of Europe stand for freedom or only for their own freedom? You can't continue to overlook these tyrants and expect things to go well in the long term as their seems to be more of them than there are of us always waiting to screw their own people and their neighbors when nations that want freedom don't act against them.

We need to draw the line at Ukraine and halt that expansionist garbage before it reaches close to Europe. We all know what happens when you let Russia and another powerful nation like China start militaristic campaigns of expansion. We've seen this before. Why do we keep acting like it will be a different outcome when the circumstances for aggressive expansionist policy are showing their ugly heads again.

[RiverDog]

What I know is my mom who listens too much to conservative radio went from liking Zelensky to hating him while listening to a conservative radio talk show hosts. I can only surmise that due to Trump's relationship with Putin, certain elements in the Republican conservative arm associated with Trump are parroting his garbage.

What I know for certain is the direction of the world is pretty far from settled. If we want to remain a free people and create a free world, you should never allow a tyrant like Putin to continue his aggressive, militaristic expansion or it's going to embolden others and make America seem weak until we are backed into a corner and forced to settle a far worse war.

I am damn tired of Europe acting only in their own self-interests rather than standing against aggressors like Putin. Do they citizens of Europe stand for freedom or only for their own freedom? You can't continue to overlook these tyrants and expect things to go well in the long term as their seems to be more of them than there are of us always waiting to screw their own people and their neighbors when nations that want freedom don't act against them.

We need to draw the line at Ukraine and halt that expansionist garbage before it reaches close to Europe. We all know what happens when you let Russia and another powerful nation like China start militaristic campaigns of expansion. We've seen this before. Why do we keep acting like it will be a different outcome when the circumstances for aggressive expansionist policy are showing their ugly heads again.

I completely agree. It's been the conservative media that has been driving this shift in public opinion away from supporting Ukraine, at least to this point. Much, if not all, of it is driven by politics, that they see an opportunity to be a pain in the ass to Biden. Sleepy Joe could cure the common cold and they'd find some way to turn it into a negative.

But that doesn't mean that it can be ignored. There's every bit of a possibility that the hard-core conservatives are just the first to give up Ukraine, that if something doesn't change, many of the more moderate elements, and possibly some Democrats, will follow their lead. It's been a pattern over the last 70 years that Americans don't have an unlimited amount of patience for these kinds of wars, that they're not going to stay the course for as long as it takes.