Is this WWIII?

[I-5]

More sabre-rattling from Moscow regarding the fact their ill-planned invasion of Ukraine has only pushed more of their neighbours towards considering NATO membership, namely Finland and Sweden. Russian president Medvedev's threat to double their forces and deploy nukes closer to the Baltics rings hollow to me. What else can they say that's any more or worse than the atrocities they're doing now? If it gets us closer to WW3, I think so be it...since the alternative is to let Russia keep doing whatever it wants. $#@ no is my response to that.

https://ca.news.yahoo.com/russia-tries-scare-finland-sweden-170232768.html

[RiverDog]

More sabre-rattling from Moscow regarding the fact their ill-planned invasion of Ukraine has only pushed more of their neighbours towards considering NATO membership, namely Finland and Sweden. Russian president Medvedev's threat to double their forces and deploy nukes closer to the Baltics rings hollow to me. What else can they say that's any more or worse than the atrocities they're doing now? If it gets us closer to WW3, I think so be it...since the alternative is to let Russia keep doing whatever it wants. $#@ no is my response to that.

https://ca.news.yahoo.com/russia-tries-scare-finland-sweden-170232768.html

I tend to agree. At some point, you have to draw a line in the sand, and the Russians seem hell bent to find that line.

If Finland and/or Sweden apply to join NATO, I'd approve them in a heartbeat and immediately start moving into their country whatever military forces they request or agree to.

[Aseahawkfan]

More sabre-rattling from Moscow regarding the fact their ill-planned invasion of Ukraine has only pushed more of their neighbours towards considering NATO membership, namely Finland and Sweden. Russian president Medvedev's threat to double their forces and deploy nukes closer to the Baltics rings hollow to me. What else can they say that's any more or worse than the atrocities they're doing now? If it gets us closer to WW3, I think so be it...since the alternative is to let Russia keep doing whatever it wants. $#@ no is my response to that.

https://ca.news.yahoo.com/russia-tries-scare-finland-sweden-170232768.html

I5 is finally with us. That's right. We do not bow to threats and fear-mongering. If Russia thinks it can threaten us with nukes and expect us to back down, then they have forgotten who we are.

We were born in a war and we'll likely die in a war. But we'll never give up our freedom to some other nation threatening us.

[NorthHawk]

There was a former General on TV last night who was talking about Putin using battlefield nuclear weapons and he said that he could see them use
non thermonuclear devices like neutron bombs that kill everything within a certain radius but leaves the buildings or vehicles standing. It also doesn't
leave long lasting radiation or create a huge mushroom cloud like what we saw in Japan or in above ground testing. If they do use them, I hope it's a
quick end and not a long suffering demise.
Scary stuff in any event.

[RiverDog]

There was a former General on TV last night who was talking about Putin using battlefield nuclear weapons and he said that he could see them use
non thermonuclear devices like neutron bombs that kill everything within a certain radius but leaves the buildings or vehicles standing. It also doesn't
leave long lasting radiation or create a huge mushroom cloud like what we saw in Japan or in above ground testing. If they do use them, I hope it's a
quick end and not a long suffering demise.
Scary stuff in any event.

Fuel to air bombs, or thermobaric. It creates such an intense pressure wave that it ruptures a human's internal organs, causes severe burns. If the Russians start using those weapons against civilian populations, I'd be all for going in and engaging them ourselves.

[c_hawkbob]

Fuel to air bombs, or thermobaric. It creates such an intense pressure wave that it ruptures a human's internal organs, causes severe burns. If the Russians start using those weapons against civilian populations, I'd be all for going in and engaging them ourselves.

They already have: https://www.bbc.com/news/business-60571395

[RiverDog]

Fuel to air bombs, or thermobaric. It creates such an intense pressure wave that it ruptures a human's internal organs, causes severe burns. If the Russians start using those weapons against civilian populations, I'd be all for going in and engaging them ourselves.

They already have: https://www.bbc.com/news/business-60571395

We've used them, too, in Vietnam. But so far, there hasn't been a confirmed report of the Russians using them in Ukraine, at least none that I am aware of.

[c_hawkbob]

That link wasn't just about the bomb, it also contains the information that Russia had confirmed the use of them to the British Minister of Defense and Ukrainian Ambassador the US has also made the same claim.

[RiverDog]

That link wasn't just about the bomb, it also contains the information that Russia had confirmed the use of them to the British Minister of Defense and Ukrainian Ambassador the US has also made the same claim.

Yes, I read your entire link. But I've read other sources that say despite the Russians claims, they have not been able to independently confirm that they have actually used them against civilians inside Ukraine:

A senior U.S. defense official on Tuesday said the Pentagon has seen weapons systems that can launch themobaric weapons inside Ukraine, but could not confirm the thermobaric weapons are actually in Ukraine or their use. Semelroth on Wednesday told Military Times there was no update to that assessment. That official on Wednesday “had nothing more to add.”

https://news.yahoo.com/ukraine-jets-hit ... 10676.html

I'm no expert, but you would think that as powerful as those weapons are that it would be relatively easy to confirm when they've actually detonated one over a civilian area.

[c_hawkbob]

I think there's greater motivation not to confirm such a thing.

[RiverDog]

I think there's greater motivation not to confirm such a thing.

There's definitely a motivation not to confirm it and I can certainly understand the reluctance of our government not to aggressively try to confirm its use, but I don't think that anyone wants to be caught intentionally withholding information from the public.

There's a lot of scrutiny on Ukraine, not only by us but with multiple other governments, worldwide media, etc. It would be pretty tough to cover up the use of such a devastating weapon if the Russians were using it with any degree of frequency.

[I-5]

If they do use them, I hope it's a
quick end and not a long suffering demise.
Scary stuff in any event.

I hope it's quick, too...but what kind of end are you thinking exactly? Ukraine simply isn't going to give up. And as I guessed, Zelensky just said they're not giving up Donbass in any negotiations either, for the reason that he doesn't believe anything the Russians say - they would simply use Donbass as a staging point to attack Kyiv again. Zelensky is right. I started this post by saying are we already in WWIII, and I think it's clear to me that we are definitely in the early stages of WWIII. I just hope the powers in the west don't end up regretting not doing more to contain Russia in Ukraine if this goes on to happen in other countries. Russia must be stopped cold in Ukraine.

I am not a warhawk by any means, but I think the US needs to ignore Moscow's empty rhetoric that now even supplying weapons to Ukraine constitutes military involvement. That was a stupid thing to say since the US has been doing that since the beginning, so I would definitely call Putin's bluff on that one. They are also threatening Finland and Sweden from joining NATO by saying they'll double their nukes at those borders. The net is closing in on Russia, and Putin knows it.

[RiverDog]

I hope it's quick, too...but what kind of end are you thinking exactly? Ukraine simply isn't going to give up. And as I guessed, Zelensky just said they're not giving up Donbass in any negotiations either, for the reason that he doesn't believe anything the Russians say - they would simply use Donbass as a staging point to attack Kyiv again. Zelensky is right. I started this post by saying are we already in WWIII, and I think it's clear to me that we are definitely in the early stages of WWIII. I just hope the powers in the west don't end up regretting not doing more to contain Russia in Ukraine if this goes on to happen in other countries. Russia must be stopped cold in Ukraine.

I am not a warhawk by any means, but I think the US needs to ignore Moscow's empty rhetoric that now even supplying weapons to Ukraine constitutes military involvement. That was a stupid thing to say since the US has been doing that since the beginning, so I would definitely call Putin's bluff on that one. They are also threatening Finland and Sweden from joining NATO by saying they'll double their nukes at those borders. The net is closing in on Russia, and Putin knows it.

There were a lot of people that thought WW3 started in 1950. There's been multiple incidents since 1945 where people had considerable justification in believing that WW3 had already started. I don't think we're anywhere close to being able to call it WW3. So far, the only blood being shed is Ukrainian and Russian.

I, too, would absolutely call Putin's bluff. He knows that if he ever were to cross that line and attack a NATO country that it would be the end for both him and his country. He's counting on weak politicians like Biden not to call his bluff.

At this point, I'd keep moving in as many weapons and supplies as we can to Ukraine, give them as much intelligence and advice that we can, keep turning the screws on the sanctions.

[Aseahawkfan]

There were a lot of people that thought WW3 started in 1950. There's been multiple incidents since 1945 where people had considerable justification in believing that WW3 had already started. I don't think we're anywhere close to being able to call it WW3. So far, the only blood being shed is Ukrainian and Russian.

I, too, would absolutely call Putin's bluff. He knows that if he ever were to cross that line and attack a NATO country that it would be the end for both him and his country. He's counting on weak politicians like Biden not to call his bluff.

At this point, I'd keep moving in as many weapons and supplies as we can to Ukraine, give them as much intelligence and advice that we can, keep turning the screws on the sanctions.

Only way these kinds of things stop happening is when we breed out the lunatics that think there is anything to take. The ones that don't realize we live on a space island in the middle of a vast universe with nowhere to go if we destroy it. You should let the other humans be free and stop worrying too much about managing a nation-state and more about managing a floating space island with a bunch of humans on it that all need to live and prosper. Leaders like Putin and Trump are what I see as one last kick we have to survive from the old world thinking. There are a few more out there. But once that group starts dying off, we will hopefully have a younger generation used to working together on a global level and not particularly interested in these Cold War/Democracy versus Communism and all this crap war competition no one needs and not many want any more.

[RiverDog]

Only way these kinds of things stop happening is when we breed out the lunatics that think there is anything to take. The ones that don't realize we live on a space island in the middle of a vast universe with nowhere to go if we destroy it. You should let the other humans be free and stop worrying too much about managing a nation-state and more about managing a floating space island with a bunch of humans on it that all need to live and prosper. Leaders like Putin and Trump are what I see as one last kick we have to survive from the old world thinking. There are a few more out there. But once that group starts dying off, we will hopefully have a younger generation used to working together on a global level and not particularly interested in these Cold War/Democracy versus Communism and all this crap war competition no one needs and not many want any more.

You're much more of an optimist than I am. WW1 was supposed to be 'the war that ends all wars', while my parents generation thought that they had rid the world of tyranny and evil when they defeated Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan. In our lifetimes, when the collapse of the Berlin wall and the demise of the Soviet Union came, everyone wanted to pay themselves a "peace dividend" by cutting back on defense because we thought that we had won the cold war. But here are, some 30 years later, trying to kill that same snake that we had left for dead.

If history has proven one thing, it's that we've never had a shortage of tyrants. They're not going to just 'die off'. The next conflict might be with China, or we could find ourselves back in the Middle East again, this time in Iran. I don't think it's ever going to end, at least not in our generation.

[Aseahawkfan]

You're much more of an optimist than I am. WW1 was supposed to be 'the war that ends all wars', while my parents generation thought that they had rid the world of tyranny and evil when they defeated Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan. In our lifetimes, when the collapse of the Berlin wall and the demise of the Soviet Union came, everyone wanted to pay themselves a "peace dividend" by cutting back on defense because we thought that we had won the cold war. But here are, some 30 years later, trying to kill that same snake that we had left for dead.

If history has proven one thing, it's that we've never had a shortage of tyrants. They're not going to just 'die off'. The next conflict might be with China, or we could find ourselves back in the Middle East again, this time in Iran. I don't think it's ever going to end, at least not in our generation.

You always have people who like to exert control for our "own good."

But they will differ by generation. Putin is one of those "Russia is great" guys that is going to die off. We're moving towards being a world. This isn't optimism on my part. It's just what will happen as communication and travel improves as well as the interconnected economic aka resource management environment continues to expand. One of the reasons wars occur is due to a lack of communication between the human social groups allowing pieces of garbage like Putin and Kim Jong to build fear through lies that cause different societal groups to be pit against each other. It happens somewhat in our country with the media, but we have an open enough media situation where a sufficient number of people communicate and there is insufficient lack of communication to foment fear to drive groups at each other. Though you can have other factors like a pandemic shutdown to increase anxiety and fear to cause disruption.

It's basic human psychology. You want fewer wars and conflicts, increase communication, resource reliance, and other factors that cause humans to avoid conflict by tying their well being to cooperative behavior versus antagonistic behavior like taking from others via violence or enslaving people. And for regular folk, support leaders that encourage cooperative behavior rather than antagonistic. Basically, those encouraging the zero sum game of warfare must be driven out.

[I-5]

You always have people who like to exert control for our "own good."

But they will differ by generation. Putin is one of those "Russia is great" guys that is going to die off. We're moving towards being a world. This isn't optimism on my part. It's just what will happen as communication and travel improves as well as the interconnected economic aka resource management environment continues to expand. One of the reasons wars occur is due to a lack of communication between the human social groups allowing pieces of garbage like Putin and Kim Jong to build fear through lies that cause different societal groups to be pit against each other. It happens somewhat in our country with the media, but we have an open enough media situation where a sufficient number of people communicate and there is insufficient lack of communication to foment fear to drive groups at each other. Though you can have other factors like a pandemic shutdown to increase anxiety and fear to cause disruption.

It's basic human psychology. You want fewer wars and conflicts, increase communication, resource reliance, and other factors that cause humans to avoid conflict by tying their well being to cooperative behavior versus antagonistic behavior like taking from others via violence or enslaving people. And for regular folk, support leaders that encourage cooperative behavior rather than antagonistic. Basically, those encouraging the zero sum game of warfare must be driven out.

I agree with the sentiment here, and I do think regular citizens from Russia and the West have far more in common than not, what I don't trust even after Putin is gone is the Russian propaganda machine. Granted, Putin has been the main architect for the past 20+ years, but even when he's gone, he has his circle of true believers...or are they?

[RiverDog]

I agree with the sentiment here, and I do think regular citizens from Russia and the West have far more in common than not, what I don't trust even after Putin is gone is the Russian propaganda machine. Granted, Putin has been the main architect for the past 20+ years, but even when he's gone, he has his circle of true believers...or are they?

That's the 65 thousand dollar question: What happens when Putin is gone? Will he be replaced by someone like Gorbachev or someone like Stalin?

We all thought that back in the 90's, that we had finally defeated the USSR and that they would become a country like those in western Europe. But low and behold, here we are, some 30 years later, back in virtually the same spot that we were back when the Soviets were in power.

It's not too different than the sentiment in this country towards Germany in the first half of the 20th century and why a lot of people were against re-unification, including my old man, who said: We had to beat them in a war twice within 30 years. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.

[MackStrongIsMyHero]

That’s an interesting parallel. At the end of WWI, the Allies had the men and material to invade Germany, but no one had the stomach for it and rightly so. The military powers that be in Germany turned over control to politicians who then brokered the armistice. This allowed the stab in the back myth to come into play. The military leaders claimed the armies were actually unbeaten and still on foreign soil and it was the politicians on the home front that failed. So the crippling reparations and forced demilitarization meant to keep Germany pacified ended up becoming additional fuel to the fire of dissatisfaction in Germany along with the stab in the back propaganda. Hitler took advantage of that and we all know how that turned out.

That gets to the point of the second time around, the Allies went all the way to Berlin, and pulverized Germany both militarily and economically, and there would be no brokered peace; only unconditional surrender. The Allies wanted be sure that, this time, the German people would know the full weight of their nations actions and that there’d be no chance another stab in the back type message would be able to take root. The formation of the future government of Germany was subject to the full authority of the Allied powers.

So take the collapse of the Soviet Union; they were decimated economically, but that only served as a respite, much like Weimar Germany. There’s obviously enough of those Russians who believe Russia should return to the Soviet Union of old. Putin seems to want that given the wars he has fought with former Soviet republics and now Ukraine. So even if Russia loses this war as well as their world standing, there will be no march to Moscow with a complete disassembly and rebuild of their government subject to Western authority. That’s not a comforting thought that this could repeat again.

[RiverDog]

That’s an interesting parallel. At the end of WWI, the Allies had the men and material to invade Germany, but no one had the stomach for it and rightly so. The military powers that be in Germany turned over control to politicians who then brokered the armistice. This allowed the stab in the back myth to come into play. The military leaders claimed the armies were actually unbeaten and still on foreign soil and it was the politicians on the home front that failed. So the crippling reparations and forced demilitarization meant to keep Germany pacified ended up becoming additional fuel to the fire of dissatisfaction in Germany along with the stab in the back propaganda. Hitler took advantage of that and we all know how that turned out.

That gets to the point of the second time around, the Allies went all the way to Berlin, and pulverized Germany both militarily and economically, and there would be no brokered peace; only unconditional surrender. The Allies wanted be sure that, this time, the German people would know the full weight of their nations actions and that there’d be no chance another stab in the back type message would be able to take root. The formation of the future government of Germany was subject to the full authority of the Allied powers.

So take the collapse of the Soviet Union; they were decimated economically, but that only served as a respite, much like Weimar Germany. There’s obviously enough of those Russians who believe Russia should return to the Soviet Union of old. Putin seems to want that given the wars he has fought with former Soviet republics and now Ukraine. So even if Russia loses this war as well as their world standing, there will be no march to Moscow with a complete disassembly and rebuild of their government subject to Western authority. That’s not a comforting thought that this could repeat again.

Very good post, Mack. Another parallel is that following WW1 and after the Nazis took control, they fed a ton of disinformation to the public about the role the Jews played, blaming them for losing the war and for the worldwide depression of the 30's. That's not too unlike what Putin is doing, feeding the public a lot of false propaganda.

[Aseahawkfan]

I always find it strange that both Christians and Communists follow a philosophy created by a Jewish person and embraced by Jewish people initially, yet have groups of strongly anti-semitic people in their nations and religions. Jesus and Karl Marx were both Jewish. Their philosophies have been embraced by certain large groups. Yet without love for the Jewish folk that both come from. I wonder why that happens.

This Ukrainians are anti-Semites is also strange since Zelensky is Jewish. The Russian propaganda does not the fit the reality.

It's all very strange.

[RiverDog]

I always find it strange that both Christians and Communists follow a philosophy created by a Jewish person and embraced by Jewish people initially, yet have groups of strongly anti-semitic groups in their nations and religions. Jesus and Karl Marx were both Jewish. Their philosophies have been embraced by certain large groups. Yet without love for the Jewish folk that both come from. I wonder why that happens.

This Ukrainians are anti-Semites is also strange since Zelensky is Jewish. The Russian propaganda does not the fit the reality.

It's all very strange.

I didn't know that Zelensky was Jewish. I pay less attention to what religion a person is than I do their race or country of origin. I didn't realize that Mitt Romney was a Mormon until he became a Senator from Utah after he ran for POTUS. If Ukraine comes out of this war without being subjected to Russian rule, I'll bet it squashes out anti Semitism in that country.

[NorthHawk]

That's the 65 thousand dollar question: What happens when Putin is gone? Will he be replaced by someone like Gorbachev or someone like Stalin?

We all thought that back in the 90's, that we had finally defeated the USSR and that they would become a country like those in western Europe. But low and behold, here we are, some 30 years later, back in virtually the same spot that we were back when the Soviets were in power.

It's not too different than the sentiment in this country towards Germany in the first half of the 20th century and why a lot of people were against re-unification, including my old man, who said: We had to beat them in a war twice within 30 years. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.

The other option for a successor to Putin is someone like Navalny who could end up like a Nelson Mandela figure given some of the parallels to his life.
There are a number of good Russian politicians who understand the West and although they would want to continue building their own path could live and prosper quite well
in the same region as their closest neighbors and the rest of the world. But it may take a violent uprising to get there.

[I-5]

I didn't know that Zelensky was Jewish. I pay less attention to what religion a person is than I do their race or country of origin. I didn't realize that Mitt Romney was a Mormon until he became a Senator from Utah after he ran for POTUS. If Ukraine comes out of this war without being subjected to Russian rule, I'll bet it squashes out anti Semitism in that country.

Yeah, Riv, Zelensky has a fascinating and tragic family history that is mixed with the history of jews in Ukraine - his grandfather Semyon was an officer in the Red Army that was part of the Berlin offensive during WWII - yet Semyon's own father and three brothers all perished in the Holocaust when the Germans massacred jews in Ukraine. So for Putin to claim to use 'de-nazification' as one of his justifications for wanting to take Kyiv is the ultimate irony. Putin in his cruel nature is well aware of Zelensky's lineage while making this claim.

[RiverDog]

I didn't know that Zelensky was Jewish. I pay less attention to what religion a person is than I do their race or country of origin. I didn't realize that Mitt Romney was a Mormon until he became a Senator from Utah after he ran for POTUS. If Ukraine comes out of this war without being subjected to Russian rule, I'll bet it squashes out anti Semitism in that country.

Yeah, Riv, Zelensky has a fascinating and tragic family history that is mixed with the history of jews in Ukraine - his grandfather Semyon was an officer in the Red Army that was part of the Berlin offensive during WWII - yet Semyon's own father and three brothers all perished in the Holocaust when the Germans massacred jews in Ukraine. So for Putin to claim to use 'de-nazification' as one of his justifications for wanting to take Kyiv is the ultimate irony. Putin in his cruel nature is well aware of Zelensky's lineage while making this claim.

Thanks for the short bio on Zelensky. Again, it is something that I wasn't aware of.

It's a little off topic, but my next door neighbor from back in the 90's was in Patton's 3rd army in 1945. Although he didn't see any combat, he was part of a number of soldiers that were ordered by Eisenhower to walk through Buchenwald, one of the concentration camps we had liberated a few days earlier. In addition to ordering our troops to tour the camp, Ike called in as much press as he could and forced German civilians to dispose of the tens of thousands of corpses littering the camp. He wanted as many human eyeballs to see the camp as he could, saying that some day, someone is going to say that it didn't happen. It's ironic, as there are people today that don't believe that it happened.

[I-5]

Stories like that really make me admire Ike. He understood his role in history, and he correctly predicted the rise of the military industrial complex.

[RiverDog]

Stories like that really make me admire Ike. He understood his role in history, and he correctly predicted the rise of the military industrial complex.

Yessiree. I've read quite a bit about Ike, even visited his birthplace and library. He had an impossible task in WW2, managing such huge egos like Patton, DeGaulle, and Montgomery. He was against the arms race of the 50's and 60's, said that it didn't make sense building 10,000 nuclear weapons when we could pulverize the world with 2500. He was also against dropping the bomb on Hiroshima, arguing that Japan was already beaten. He also got us out of Korea. The general that fought for peace.

But he had his flaws, did not come out and defend one of his mentors, George Marshall, when McCarthy was attacking him, hesitated to send in troops to enforce desegregation in Little Rock, AR (according to his personal biographer, Ike sent in troops to Little Rock because he got pissed off when the governor refused after Ike told him to call out the national guard, as if it were a captain refusing orders from a general). And not everyone was a fan of his. My uncle, who served in the 82nd airborne during WW2 and won the silver star in Sicily, said of Ike that "he lowered his (golf) handicap by 3 strokes while banging his driver!"

We could start another thread about Ike. He's one of my favorite characters out of the 20th century.

[Hawktawk]

Not sure this is WWIII but it’s the closest the world had come to nuclear war since the Cuban missile crisis . They sent a diplomatic cable warning us not to send weapons to Ukraine and we have responded with 800 million in artillery and even Nato planes . Day before yesterday putin tested their satan II which Carries 10 or more warheads and a single launch would destroy France or Texas . It is highly alarming they lost their Black Sea flagship missile cruiser as it provided cover for their entire black seas fleet . Their ground forces are incredibly inept , embarrassingly so.

The leader is a desperate crazy man” the most evil man on the planet “ as old HT said right on this forum about 5 years ago. He’s used nuclear weapons as an extension of his manhood his entire time in power . Is america doing the right thing in this fight ? I think so .but we are not 1% ready for a nuclear strike and if it happens we’re all gonna die for doing the right thing . Putin has been preparing Russians for nuclear war for quite some time . Has america prepared us ? It would be helpful if the commander in chief was still of sound mind but when you’re shaking hands with nobody our enemies see just like they saws useful Rube in the last guy .

Dangerous times . I hope I’m as right about the Hawks next year as I was about putin and this war and I hope we’re all around to settle it instead of being a nuclear ash on a flattened continent