Law and Order

[RiverDog]

Expect it to be a huge topic in the midterms and beyond. Republicans are going to use this like a hammer. And the sad thing is that they don't have to use any quacky conspiracy theories, it's empirical evidence that has a very clear cause and effect timeline.

Following the George Floyd murder and the BLM riots, Washington state, one of the bluest states in the union and controlled by Democrats, passed an ill advised measure and signed into law by Gov. Inslee that restricted law enforcement from pursuing suspected stolen vehicles. That law went into effect in July of 2021, and here's the result:

Washington ranks among the top ten states with the highest car theft rate. Statewide, vehicle thefts have increased 88% since last year.

Last July, lawmakers passed new laws that no longer gave law enforcement the authority to pursue a suspected stolen vehicle. Since then, vehicle thefts have accelerated.

Officials say this has created an environment where criminal activity can flourish. "If we attempt to stop a stolen vehicle and it drives away, there's nothing we can do about it," said Lieutenant Jason Keil.

In July of 2021, new laws went into effect placing restrictions on the tools law enforcement have the authority to use in order to detain, pursue, or investigate suspects. Police say this has left a large gap where criminals now have the upper hand in committing auto theft related crimes. "This really empowers the criminals, the people that are committing the crime and stealing these cars, they know we can't chase after them," Lieutenant Keil said.

Since the laws changed in July, statistics show auto-thefts have increased by 93%. Officials believe this is a direct result of the restrictions placed on investigating criminal activity. Lieutenant Keil told us a stolen vehicle can lead to the possibility of more extreme crimes. "We have seen instances where stolen vehicles are used to commit other crimes, not only in our area, but statewide," said Lieutenant Keil.

https://keprtv.com/news/local/car-theft ... jDWwzm3nIs

[mykc14]

Expect it to be a huge topic in the midterms and beyond. Republicans are going to use this like a hammer. And the sad thing is that they don't have to use any quacky conspiracy theories, it's empirical evidence that has a very clear cause and effect timeline.

Following the George Floyd murder and the BLM riots, Washington state, one of the bluest states in the union and controlled by Democrats, passed an ill advised measure and signed into law by Gov. Inslee that restricted law enforcement from pursuing suspected stolen vehicles. That law went into effect in July of 2021, and here's the result:

Washington ranks among the top ten states with the highest car theft rate. Statewide, vehicle thefts have increased 88% since last year.

Last July, lawmakers passed new laws that no longer gave law enforcement the authority to pursue a suspected stolen vehicle. Since then, vehicle thefts have accelerated.

Officials say this has created an environment where criminal activity can flourish. "If we attempt to stop a stolen vehicle and it drives away, there's nothing we can do about it," said Lieutenant Jason Keil.

In July of 2021, new laws went into effect placing restrictions on the tools law enforcement have the authority to use in order to detain, pursue, or investigate suspects. Police say this has left a large gap where criminals now have the upper hand in committing auto theft related crimes. "This really empowers the criminals, the people that are committing the crime and stealing these cars, they know we can't chase after them," Lieutenant Keil said.

Since the laws changed in July, statistics show auto-thefts have increased by 93%. Officials believe this is a direct result of the restrictions placed on investigating criminal activity. Lieutenant Keil told us a stolen vehicle can lead to the possibility of more extreme crimes. "We have seen instances where stolen vehicles are used to commit other crimes, not only in our area, but statewide," said Lieutenant Keil.

https://keprtv.com/news/local/car-theft ... jDWwzm3nIs

We have a lot of stupid laws like this that don't make much sense.

[RiverDog]

We have a lot of stupid laws like this that don't make much sense.

Yes, we do. But a lot of us could see this coming. We had a discussion about this very law last July. I should have just re-opened it instead of starting a new thread, but here's the old thread if anyone is interesting in what we said last summer:

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=3953

The other thing that could enter into this increase in crime is the staff shortages many PD's are facing. Some are as a result of the labor shortage that all occupations are facing, but a lot is the result of the Defund the Police movement that demoralized many officers and potential officers. I know that the Seattle PD had a huge number of resignations.

[mykc14]

Yes, we do. But a lot of us could see this coming. If I could find the thread, I could go back and dig up some of the comments as we had a discussion about this initiative when it was first proposed then signed into law.

The other thing that could enter into this increase in crime is the staff shortages many PD's are facing. Some are as a result of the labor shortage that all occupations are facing, but a lot is the result of the Defund the Police movement that demoralized many officers and potential officers. I know that the Seattle PD had a huge number of resignations.

No question. Legalizing drugs, not prosecuting shop lifting, vandalism, vagrancy, battery, etc... Extreme liberal policies are destroying some of the most beautiful cities in America and are having a huge impact on our state. These stupid laws are passed, taxes are increased to pay for the damage, insurance rates are raised to pay for the damage, etc. I can't blame any law enforcement officers who looked for employment elsewhere following the BLM and Defund the Police movements. We are going to feel the effects of this for a long time and be prepared for another BLM resurgence during the next presidential election. How much damage will we allow this time?

[RiverDog]

No question. Legalizing drugs, not prosecuting shop lifting, vandalism, vagrancy, battery, etc... Extreme liberal policies are destroying some of the most beautiful cities in America and are having a huge impact on our state. These stupid laws are passed, taxes are increased to pay for the damage, insurance rates are raised to pay for the damage, etc. I can't blame any law enforcement officers who looked for employment elsewhere following the BLM and Defund the Police movements. We are going to feel the effects of this for a long time and be prepared for another BLM resurgence during the next presidential election. How much damage will we allow this time?

Boy, I hope we don't have another wave of protests and crime in 2024. Perhaps its just wishful thinking, but IMO a big part of the riots and lawlessness in the last Presidential election was driven by the pandemic, something that we shouldn't have to deal with two years from now.

[mykc14]

Boy, I hope we don't have another wave of protests and crime in 2024. Perhaps its just wishful thinking, but IMO a big part of the riots and lawlessness in the last Presidential election was driven by the pandemic, something that we shouldn't have to deal with two years from now.

I also hope that we don't but a pattern could be forming around the BLM protests and presidential elections. 2016 saw an uptick in protests becoming riots and 2020 dwarfed that and in-between there wasn't much. Most of the worst riots were in Democrat controlled cities who want to push the narrative of systematic racism and riots push that agenda. With that being said I don't know how much of the violence was from BLM specifically vs. other people/organizations who used the movement as a trojan horse to cause destruction. Liberal ran cities gave the protests a lot of space which allowed groups and people to just do whatever they wanted- destruction, chaos, etc. IMO this has to do with the liberal mind-set. Give people space to voice/act out their frustration how they feel they need to. It's not our job to stop them or tell them how to protest. Black people should be able to loot and rob- it's a form of reparations, etc... IMO deep down these leaders know this is not good for our country but they feel like it helps paint the narratives that will allow them to get re-elected.

[RiverDog]

I also hope that we don't but a pattern could be forming around the BLM protests and presidential elections. 2016 saw an uptick in protests becoming riots and 2020 dwarfed that and in-between there wasn't much. Most of the worst riots were in Democrat controlled cities who want to push the narrative of systematic racism and riots push that agenda. With that being said I don't know how much of the violence was from BLM specifically vs. other people/organizations who used the movement as a trojan horse to cause destruction. Liberal ran cities gave the protests a lot of space which allowed groups and people to just do whatever they wanted- destruction, chaos, etc. IMO this has to do with the liberal mind-set. Give people space to voice/act out their frustration how they feel they need to. It's not our job to stop them or tell them how to protest. Black people should be able to loot and rob- it's a form of reparations, etc... IMO deep down these leaders know this is not good for our country but they feel like it helps paint the narratives that will allow them to get re-elected.

It depends on the nominee, in particular, the Republican nominee. If we get Trump again in 2024, then I would expect that your theory would be correct. But if the R's nominate a more moderate candidate, then I don't think it will be quite so bad.

We'll see how things go in the midterms, but this law and order issue is going to put the Democrats on the defensive.

[Aseahawkfan]

I fail to understand how the Democrats see this as intelligent management of law enforcement and crime to create these situations that discourage police from intervening and lower the thresholds for what is a property crime. They just expect us all to be ok with it. And for some reason, enough voters just keep tolerating a jackass like Jay Inslee and the Seattle City Council. I don't get it.

[RiverDog]

I fail to understand how the Democrats see this as intelligent management of law enforcement and crime to create these situations that discourage police from intervening and lower the thresholds for what is a property crime. They just expect us all to be ok with it. And for some reason, enough voters just keep tolerating a jackass like Jay Inslee and the Seattle City Council. I don't get it.

One of the problems, at least as far as Gov. Inslee is concerned, is that the Republicans trotted out a Trump clone in the form of Loren Culp as his opponent. As much as I dislike Inslee, even I voted for him instead of that moonbat Culp.

However, I'm sure that it didn't matter who the R's put out there. A Republican hasn't won a state wide election in Washington for 28 years and haven't elected a Republican governor for 42 years.

[NorthHawk]

Expect it to be a huge topic in the midterms and beyond. Republicans are going to use this like a hammer. And the sad thing is that they don't have to use any quacky conspiracy theories, it's empirical evidence that has a very clear cause and effect timeline.

Following the George Floyd murder and the BLM riots, Washington state, one of the bluest states in the union and controlled by Democrats, passed an ill advised measure and signed into law by Gov. Inslee that restricted law enforcement from pursuing suspected stolen vehicles. That law went into effect in July of 2021, and here's the result:

Washington ranks among the top ten states with the highest car theft rate. Statewide, vehicle thefts have increased 88% since last year.

Last July, lawmakers passed new laws that no longer gave law enforcement the authority to pursue a suspected stolen vehicle. Since then, vehicle thefts have accelerated.

Officials say this has created an environment where criminal activity can flourish. "If we attempt to stop a stolen vehicle and it drives away, there's nothing we can do about it," said Lieutenant Jason Keil.

In July of 2021, new laws went into effect placing restrictions on the tools law enforcement have the authority to use in order to detain, pursue, or investigate suspects. Police say this has left a large gap where criminals now have the upper hand in committing auto theft related crimes. "This really empowers the criminals, the people that are committing the crime and stealing these cars, they know we can't chase after them," Lieutenant Keil said.

Since the laws changed in July, statistics show auto-thefts have increased by 93%. Officials believe this is a direct result of the restrictions placed on investigating criminal activity. Lieutenant Keil told us a stolen vehicle can lead to the possibility of more extreme crimes. "We have seen instances where stolen vehicles are used to commit other crimes, not only in our area, but statewide," said Lieutenant Keil.

https://keprtv.com/news/local/car-theft ... jDWwzm3nIs

We changed that law years ago and it was put in because of the carnage high speed chases caused for a car. Now police back off after a certain speed and they find them later, but a lot fewer people
are injured or killed because of that change in policy.

[RiverDog]

We changed that law years ago and it was put in because of the carnage high speed chases caused for a car. Now police back off after a certain speed and they find them later, but a lot fewer people are injured or killed because of that change in policy.

That's been the practice in this state for decades. But the new law in WA state goes beyond simply backing off a pursuit if the public is at risk. Here's a good description of the difference:

Moss gave the example of an arrest in Spanaway Friday morning after someone poured gasoline on a strip of grass and lit it on fire. A deputy took a man into custody in the area based on a description given by a witness during a 911 call. Moss said the deputy had “reasonable suspicion,” but once HB 1054 and HB 1310 take effect July 25, deputies would need probable cause to make that same arrest.

“Probable cause would be I come to the scene, the witness is across the street and points and says, ‘That's the guy right there. He's the one that lit the fire,” Moss said. Law enforcement can still approach suspects, but if they try to leave, officers would need probable cause to detain them or to use any kind of force.

High speed pursuits will have new limits. Probable cause will be required and the emphasis will be on violent felonies and sex crimes. “So domestic violence suspects we will not chase, residential burglars we will not chase, burglary in the second degree we cannot chase,” Moss said.

Handcuffing is considered a use of force, so officers will no longer be able to pre-emptively restrain people for questioning unless they already have probable cause.

An example given to me by my neighbor, a deputy sheriff, was that if they have the license plate number of a stolen car, that's probable cause and they can pursue it and make an arrest. But if all they have is a description, a white Honda Civic or a blue Ford F-150, it's only a reasonable suspicion that the car is stolen, so they cannot pursue it.

This this type of bull$h!t that causes me not to vote for Democratic candidates unless the Republican alternative is completely unacceptable.

[NorthHawk]

When voting I look at the totality of the parties involved.
Do I want a law and order gov't but willing to accept industrialized incarceration?
It's that kind of question which is something only you can answer and it's a tough choice.
If I were voting, my outlook would be do I want the R's to control the agenda or not? Do I want the Jim Jordan's and Matt Gaetz's of that party telling me
how they are going to run the country for their own benefit?
It seems to me that it would be an unpalatable choice, but I'd rather have the fools in power than the malicious.

[Aseahawkfan]

When voting I look at the totality of the parties involved.
Do I want a law and order gov't but willing to accept industrialized incarceration?
It's that kind of question which is something only you can answer and it's a tough choice.
If I were voting, my outlook would be do I want the R's to control the agenda or not? Do I want the Jim Jordan's and Matt Gaetz's of that party telling me
how they are going to run the country for their own benefit?
It seems to me that it would be an unpalatable choice, but I'd rather have the fools in power than the malicious.

It's telling that you can't find reasonable, moral politicians in either party at this point in America. Very bad for us. I'm not even sure it is an actual reflection of the American people or if somehow the loons have gotten control of both parties through their marketing machines. I don' t know how it happened. How did America reach the point where this is our choice? Jim Jordan and Matt Gaetz or Ocasio-Cortez or Bernie Sanders? That is not great choices at all. A bunch of people who don't know what the hell they're doing with agendas driven by ideology over any kind of sensible management of the nation.

[RiverDog]

When voting I look at the totality of the parties involved.
Do I want a law and order gov't but willing to accept industrialized incarceration?
It's that kind of question which is something only you can answer and it's a tough choice.
If I were voting, my outlook would be do I want the R's to control the agenda or not? Do I want the Jim Jordan's and Matt Gaetz's of that party telling me
how they are going to run the country for their own benefit?
It seems to me that it would be an unpalatable choice, but I'd rather have the fools in power than the malicious.

I guess I should modify my statement. If I don't see an acceptable candidate from either party and/or know little about either of them, I'll default to the Republican. If there happens to be a moderate Democrat that has core principles that align with mine, then I will consider them.

I'm just using this as an example of how weak the Dems are on law and order, how the BLM movement caused them to enact some hugely asinine laws that have had a direct impact on law abiding citizens of this state.

[RiverDog]

It's telling that you can't find reasonable, moral politicians in either party at this point in America. Very bad for us. I'm not even sure it is an actual reflection of the American people or if somehow the loons have gotten control of both parties through their marketing machines. I don' t know how it happened. How did America reach the point where this is our choice? Jim Jordan and Matt Gaetz or Ocasio-Cortez or Bernie Sanders? That is not great choices at all. A bunch of people who don't know what the hell they're doing with agendas driven by ideology over any kind of sensible management of the nation.

You're right, and I shouldn't be beating up on just the Dems. The Trump wing of the Republican party is just as bad if not worse than the progressive wing of the Dems. The last two choices we've had for POTUS, ie Trump/Clinton and Trump/Biden, were hands down the worst choices from either party since I started voting back in 1972. I think we got better candidates when the party bosses selected them in smoke filled rooms.

The problem in this state is that it is completely controlled by the Democrats. The R's have controlled the state senate for 10 out of the past 30 years, the state house for 4 of the past 30 years, and haven't elected a Republican governor since 1980. The Democrats have had complete control of both the Legislature and the Governor's mansion for all but 7 of the past 20 years. It's one party rule.

[Hawktawk]

I fail to understand how the Democrats see this as intelligent management of law enforcement and crime to create these situations that discourage police from intervening and lower the thresholds for what is a property crime. They just expect us all to be ok with it. And for some reason, enough voters just keep tolerating a jackass like Jay Inslee and the Seattle City Council. I don't get it.

I’m not familiar with the city council but Inslee I am . He gets elected because last 2 terms an absolutely devisive candidate was at the top of the ticket for the republicans . Plus last round the repubs ran an anti mask Trump protege . In 2016 Bill Bryant ran as a centrist opposed to trump and outperformed Trump by 250 k votes in the state , still not enough . The only chance liberals have is if this stays trumps party . Go back to being republicans and lots of things will change

[RiverDog]

I fail to understand how the Democrats see this as intelligent management of law enforcement and crime to create these situations that discourage police from intervening and lower the thresholds for what is a property crime. They just expect us all to be ok with it. And for some reason, enough voters just keep tolerating a jackass like Jay Inslee and the Seattle City Council. I don't get it.

I’m not familiar with the city council but Inslee I am . He gets elected because last 2 terms an absolutely devisive candidate was at the top of the ticket for the republicans . Plus last round the repubs ran an anti mask Trump protege . In 2016 Bill Bryant ran as a centrist opposed to trump and outperformed Trump by 250 k votes in the state , still not enough . The only chance liberals have is if this stays trumps party . Go back to being republicans and lots of things will change

I agree that the Republicans have put the worst candidate they could possibly imagine forward for Gov in 2020, but that's not why Inslee keeps getting re-elected. The R's could nominate Abraham Lincoln against any random Dem and he'd lose by 5%. We haven't had a Republican Governor since John Spellman was elected in 1980. 42 frigging years.

I agree that things would be a lot better if a non Trump R were in charge, but it's not going to happen, not in our lifetimes. This state is as blue as they come.