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by **Stream Hawk** » Tue Jun 14, 2022 9:34 pm

Figured this needs its own thread. My apologies if it was started before & I missed it. At first I was cynical about the whole thing, but this trial is starting to change my opinion.

I feel like what we heard from Ivanka, Bill Barr, and (everyone else) others admitting they told him he lost well before the 6th. What he said about Pence. JFC. It’s a loony bin. Also the fact that he embezzled ~$250 million based on the stop the steal, could/should be class action lawsuit.

by **c_hawkbob** » Tue Jun 14, 2022 10:19 pm

Also the fact that he embezzled ~$250 million based on the stop the steal, could/should be class action lawsuit.

Should, and likely will, also be criminal charges.

by **RiverDog** » Wed Jun 15, 2022 4:58 am

A couple of things here:

My opinion of Donald Trump hasn't changed as a result of these hearings. Although they make for good television drama, beat the hell out of daytime TV's game shows and soap operas, and I have learned something in that there were more people than I thought that were close to Trump that tried to tell him that he lost the election, all it has done is reaffirm my opinion that he is a delusional narcissist that can't accept rejection or defeat and engaged in highly illegal and unethical behavior during the aftermath of the election, including inciting the Capitol riot. However, I suspect that, despite the overwhelming evidence to the contrary, very many people who supported DJT have changed their opinion of him due to what they may have learned in these hearings.

They are never going to get DJT on any criminal charges no matter how convincing those charges are. Even if they were able to bring him to trial and get a conviction, he'll never serve a day in jail, and it won't prevent him from running for the White House in 2024. I would rather see them go after people that enabled Trump, guys like Rudy Guiliani, and force them to testify and bring charges against them.

I don't see the purpose of these hearings other than to keep the issue and the members of the committee in the news cycle. If someone can explain to me, beyond what I just said, what the objective of these hearings are, I'd be delighted to hear them.

by **c_hawkbob** » Wed Jun 15, 2022 7:31 am

I'm sorry but campaign finance fraud is criminal. Phoo phoo sedition all you want but the $250M he solicited from his minions for a non existent campaign war chest is criminal.

by **RiverDog** » Wed Jun 15, 2022 7:35 am

c_hawkbob wrote:I'm sorry but campaign finance fraud is criminal. Phoo phoo sedition all you want but the $250M he solicited from his minions for a non existent campaign war chest is criminal.

No need to apologize as I agree completely, and I wouldn't limit it to DJT as it appears that his kids benefited from that campaign war chest, too. But do you seriously think that they'll get DJT on those or any other charges and that he'll spend time eating off a tin plate?

by **NorthHawk** » Wed Jun 15, 2022 8:44 am

Won't the defendants drag it out until the next election whereby the new Republican regime will kill the prosecution?
Or does that not happen in the American Justice system?

by **Aseahawkfan** » Wed Jun 15, 2022 2:54 pm

I'll keep watching to see if the Democrats ever get enough juice to stick something on Trump. So far it's been years of investigations and nothing has been stuck to Trump. It's been all talk and no real action. Just tons of money and time spent investigating Donald Trump and not a single thing has been done to him. Time is running low as he sounds like he plans to run in 2024. If the Dems lose the House and Senate this year, I expect Joe Biden to be under constant investigation heading into 2024 because I've never seen the Republicans not pay the Democrats back for making them look bad. If the Republicans win the House, I expect Hunter Biden and what he did to become a much bigger deal than it was made to be earlier.

If the Democrats don't stick anything on Trump by the time he runs for re-election, he's gonna be taking shots at them and laughing at them and making them look weak like he enjoys doing. His followers are going to lap it up and so is Fox News.

It's really sad to watch. The amount of crazy in these two political parties makes America look like a land of loons that no one looks to any more as leaders. I imagine other nations look at us right now and think, "What the hell happened to America? American leadership used to be respected. Now it's two loony political parties arguing over whether 1st to 3rd grader can take puberty blockers and obsessing over a reality TV star that is taking them both into the gutter. And these people have nuclear weapons. I hope it doesn't get worse."

How did we get here? I do not know.

by **Aseahawkfan** » Wed Jun 15, 2022 3:06 pm

c_hawkbob wrote:I'm sorry but campaign finance fraud is criminal. Phoo phoo sedition all you want but the $250M he solicited from his minions for a non existent campaign war chest is criminal.

Donald Trump and a bunch of politicians including Hilary and Bill Clinton have been doing things that would get regular people put in jail for ages, none of them have done an ounce of time. They paid some fines and walked. I can't think of a president that wasn't involved in some scandal other than maybe Obama and Carter that skated by with no real repercussions. Hell, we run a drone assassination program that I consider criminal and Obama signed off on more drone assassinations than any other president, we all just go with it.

It don't matter. Democrat or Republican, Republican or Democrat, you got the money and juice, you can skate for a lot of things that criminal, unethical, and the like.

The Democrats acted like they were highly supportive of Metoo# and Bill Clinton is the poster child for Metoo# as far as presidents go and his wife Hilary was one of the most vicious attackers going after the women Bill hooked up with. He lied on the witness stand about it. He got nothing but an impeachment vote and some fines.

You are old enough to know the likelihood of anything happening to Donald Trump is slim to none. You been watching this kind of crap for years.

Fact is if the Democrats can't get enough Republicans onboard to take it to Trump or get charges on Trump that won't be paid back to the Democrats, they won't do it. They'll just use it for political hokum in the media, but not for real action because some powerful Democrats will fear retribution when the Republicans inevitably gain power and look for some Democrats to take out with the same charges.

That's the game. That's how it works. That's how it has worked my entire life and your entire life. Democrats pay Republicans back just the same like they did when Clinton was embarrassed, then a bunch of Republicans suddenly had their mistresses revealed and their extracurricular affairs a matter of public record.

by **RiverDog** » Thu Jun 16, 2022 5:51 am

NorthHawk wrote:Won't the defendants drag it out until the next election whereby the new Republican regime will kill the prosecution?
Or does that not happen in the American Justice system?

Yeah, that's pretty much the game here. It's one of the advantages that the party in power has, that they can investigate their political opponents. Both parties have done it to each other.

However, this isn't a court of law, so they aren't really 'defendants'. It's a Congressional investigation. The statements they take are sworn and can be used against them in a court of law and they can be prosecuted in a court of law if they lie or refuse to testify, but the committee has no legal authority and no means to fine or punish those that testify.

by **Aseahawkfan** » Thu Jun 16, 2022 3:39 pm

I was thinking last night of all this trash I've seen these politicians get away with just off the top of my head not looking too deep.

Nixon: Watergate. Didn't do a day of jail time and pardoned by Ford. This doesn't even include all the shenanigans in Vietnam.

Carter: He seems pretty clean. Maybe Riverdog knows some scandal with Carter.

Gerald Ford: He was Nixon's VP. Probably knew something about Watergate and pardoned Nixon.

Reagan: Iran-Contra Scandal.

Bush Sr. Iran Contra Scandal.

Clinton: This is really when it seemed both parties no longer cared about hiding anything and went to town on each other.

Multiple scandals with women. Hilary acting like an enforcer for her husband against these accusations, then getting a pass from the Metoo# movement when she ran for president.

Whitewater scandal.

Perjury on the witness stand in front of America.

Accusations of bribes from the Chinese.

No retaliation against the Somali Warlords when they dragged two of our soldiers in the street. Total FUBAR with the Somali Operation.

On a side note some Bosnians believe Clinton made a deal with the Serbs even after they massacred 10,000 Bosnian Muslims https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jul/26/srebrenica-bill-clinton-bosnia-appeasement-documents

Multiple sexual assault allegations

Bush Jr: Stealing the election in Florida accusations.

Starting a war on false pretenses.

Corruption by Halliburton and KKR (Halliburton's construction arm)

Bush Jr. and Cheney accused of war crimes by some.

Blame for deregulation during the Housing Crash

Obama: Obama seemed pretty clean for the most part. The Embassy Attack in Libya.

I can't say as I love the Drone Assassination program, but he didn't start it.

Trump: Well this guy has been accused of everything but murder so far.

Paid of pornstars and nude models he slept with to keep quiet.

Russian collusion.

Phone call with Ukrainian president.

Nepotism using daughter and son in law as White House advisors.

Campaign Finance violations.

Tax Violations.

January 6th inciting an insurrection or riot or whatever you want to call it.

Multiple sexual assault allegations.

This doesn't even include all the messed up stuff members of Congress have done much less state and local level politicians. Let's be real here. Our politicians are like an noble class in American society that get away with a lot of crap regular Americans would not be able to get away with. We're not North Korea, Russia, or China bad, but we're not exactly a low level corruption nation. Our politicians do a ton of dirty stuff and are always using their political position to make money.

We so rarely see any of these politicians answer for any of it. They just keep doing it and skirting any consequences. That's why I'll believe Trump will be charged and suffer consequences when I see it actually happen. A president suffering the consequences for their crimes is a fairy tale told by the news to each party's followers.

by **RiverDog** » Thu Jun 16, 2022 5:49 pm

Ford and Carter were both pretty clean. Ford's pardon of Nixon was rumored to be an agreement with Nixon before he left office, but the truth of it was that he did so to keep from having to deal with the constant distractions. Although Democrats would have loved to have kept it in the news, but in was best for the nation as it would have been a circus had he not pardoned him. Besides, the R's got clobbered in the midterms in '74 and Ford lost to Carter in '76, one of the major reasons being his pardoning of Nixon, so it's not like he and his party didn't pay a price.

Carter had his "Billygate", but it really wasn't any of his doing and was more of a pain in the arse than anything else. His brother Billy, of which to say about him that he was a flake would be a huge understatement, was trying to peddle influence with the Libyans. Outside of that, I can't think of anything that would come close to equating scandals like Watergate, Iran Contra, and the numerous Clinton scandals (You could add Filegate, Whitewater, and Travelgate to the pallet).

I'll stop there so as not to divert the thread too much. I have been paying attention to the hearings, and what I've heard is shocking. I don't think it's going to change anyone's mind about Trump, but it's probably a good thing to get it out in the open. God, I wish the R's would rid themselves of that POS.

by **Aseahawkfan** » Fri Jun 17, 2022 3:08 pm

RiverDog wrote:Ford and Carter were both pretty clean. Ford's pardon of Nixon was rumored to be an agreement with Nixon before he left office, but the truth of it was that he did so to keep from having to deal with the constant distractions. Although Democrats would have loved to have kept it in the news, but in was best for the nation as it would have been a circus had he not pardoned him. Besides, the R's got clobbered in the midterms in '74 and Ford lost to Carter in '76, one of the major reasons being his pardoning of Nixon, so it's not like he and his party didn't pay a price.

Carter had his "Billygate", but it really wasn't any of his doing and was more of a pain in the arse than anything else. His brother Billy, of which to say about him that he was a flake would be a huge understatement, was trying to peddle influence with the Libyans. Outside of that, I can't think of anything that would come close to equating scandals like Watergate, Iran Contra, and the numerous Clinton scandals (You could add Filegate, Whitewater, and Travelgate to the pallet).

I'll stop there so as not to divert the thread too much. I have been paying attention to the hearings, and what I've heard is shocking. I don't think it's going to change anyone's mind about Trump, but it's probably a good thing to get it out in the open. God, I wish the R's would rid themselves of that POS.

Quite a few of my friends are still willing to vote for Trump. I'm amazed myself given how he treated Pence and just the overall chaos he caused. But they hate Joe Biden, hate the Democrats, and still believe Trump would be a stronger leader than Biden that doesn't as they put it "take crap off the Democrats." I think it's insane myself. I would never vote for The Narcissist. A man who never admits he's wrong or apologizes is not what I consider strong. You have to be a very insecure person to be unable to admit when you're wrong and give others credit. A very weak person with a massive ego of glass. But I guess if you can make it appear like you're strong, some people will buy into it.

I wish the Dems could stick something to him that will absolutely ensure he does not run for office again. I don't care if they get him on something and then negotiate a deal to ensure he doesn't run again, just make sure this guy is defanged and sent packing. I even wish the Republicans would do this behind the scenes. Tell Trump we don't want you to run again and if you do we're going to torpedo you hard. But there doesn't seem to be the will for that either.

If the Dems can't stick anything on him and he runs again in 2024, that is going to suck. Mainly because I think he can beat Biden without COVID and this insane inflation, then we'll have to deal with the looney in the White House again. Then I have to try to avoid the 24 hour news cycle of constant attacks and counterattacks and total chaotic environment he invites into politics. That was the most annoying part of Trump in the White House: the crazy he spawned on both sides.

by **RiverDog** » Sat Jun 18, 2022 2:23 pm

Aseahawkfan wrote:Quite a few of my friends are still willing to vote for Trump. I'm amazed myself given how he treated Pence and just the overall chaos he caused. But they hate Joe Biden, hate the Democrats, and still believe Trump would be a stronger leader than Biden that doesn't as they put it "take crap off the Democrats." I think it's insane myself. I would never vote for The Narcissist. A man who never admits he's wrong or apologizes is not what I consider strong. You have to be a very insecure person to be unable to admit when you're wrong and give others credit. A very weak person with a massive ego of glass. But I guess if you can make it appear like you're strong, some people will buy into it.

Yeah, I hear ya. I swear, for some people, Trump could rape their daughter and it wouldn't change their opinions of him. I'm still seeing a lot of Trump 2024 signs and flags when I drive out in the country and through small towns.

Aseahawkfan wrote:I wish the Dems could stick something to him that will absolutely ensure he does not run for office again. I don't care if they get him on something and then negotiate a deal to ensure he doesn't run again, just make sure this guy is defanged and sent packing. I even wish the Republicans would do this behind the scenes. Tell Trump we don't want you to run again and if you do we're going to torpedo you hard. But there doesn't seem to be the will for that either.

If the Dems can't stick anything on him and he runs again in 2024, that is going to suck. Mainly because I think he can beat Biden without COVID and this insane inflation, then we'll have to deal with the looney in the White House again. Then I have to try to avoid the 24 hour news cycle of constant attacks and counterattacks and total chaotic environment he invites into politics. That was the most annoying part of Trump in the White House: the crazy he spawned on both sides.

There's nothing that can legally prevent DJT, or anyone else that meets the three criteria set forth in the Constitution, from running for POTUS. He could run from his jail cell. Besides, there isn't a snowball's chance in hell that the Dems could make anything stick on him that might produce a prison sentence.

But I agree, the worst part of his presidency, and indeed, his existence, is the utter chaos and lunacy he's produced on both sides of the political spectrum, particularly the R's but also on the liberal side. He's the single biggest reason for the political and social divide that we suffer from today, and one of the biggest disappointments of my adult life is that more people can't recognize what I think he crystal clear.

by **curmudgeon** » Sat Jun 18, 2022 4:41 pm

Why is everyone worried about Trump when things are cruising along just fine?…..

by **Aseahawkfan** » Sat Jun 18, 2022 6:28 pm

curmudgeon wrote:Why is everyone worried about Trump when things are cruising along just fine?…..

If things we're going fine, no one would worry about Trump. It's a testament to how bad things are that Trump even has a chance to win the White House again. America can't produce a good leader at the moment. Just lots of crazy and stupid.

by **RiverDog** » Sun Jun 19, 2022 4:57 am

curmudgeon wrote:Why is everyone worried about Trump when things are cruising along just fine?…..

Aseahawkfan wrote:If things we're going fine, no one would worry about Trump. It's a testament to how bad things are that Trump even has a chance to win the White House again. America can't produce a good leader at the moment. Just lots of crazy and stupid.

I detect a bit of sarcasm in curmudgeon's comment.

The fact that 'things' are going so badly is exactly why 'everyone' is worried about Trump. Biden is proving to be hugely ineffective, posting job approval numbers that are as bad or worse than Trump's, currently below 40%. Anytime an incumbent president's job approval sinks below 50%, it usually spells trouble for both him and his party. Biden's been under 50% for nearly a year, about 2/3's of his Presidency. He's over promised and under delivered. He's old, makes confusing and contradictory statements, and people get this sense that he's not up to the job. If his numbers are this bad in late 2023, he'd be well advised not to run again.

Even if Biden does run again, I wouldn't be surprised to see several serious challengers for the nomination, or worse, a viable independent, like Ross Perot in '92, that could steal votes from a Dem nominee and give the Presidency back to Trump with a popular vote in the low 40's. That would be a nightmare scenario.

by **Aseahawkfan** » Sun Jun 19, 2022 1:56 pm

RiverDog wrote:I detect a bit of sarcasm in curmudgeon's comment.

The fact that 'things' are going so badly is exactly why 'everyone' is worried about Trump. Biden is proving to be hugely ineffective, posting job approval numbers that are as bad or worse than Trump's, currently below 40%. Anytime an incumbent president's job approval sinks below 50%, it usually spells trouble for both him and his party. Biden's been under 50% for nearly a year, about 2/3's of his Presidency. He's over promised and under delivered. He's old, makes confusing and contradictory statements, and people get this sense that he's not up to the job. If his numbers are this bad in late 2023, he'd be well advised not to run again.

Even if Biden does run again, I wouldn't be surprised to see several serious challengers for the nomination, or worse, a viable independent, like Ross Perot in '92, that could steal votes from a Dem nominee and give the Presidency back to Trump with a popular vote in the low 40's. That would be a nightmare scenario.

I've seen so many Trump supporters ask that question as they are prepared to vote for Trump again as they see everything he says as gospel and ignore all the chaos he brings with him. My feeling is this is more of being told Trump's on his way back and he'll be ready to vote for him again like so many other Trump supporters who are just waiting for him to run again in 2024 and vote him in again as a big old FU to the Democrats and the left wing who are far more concerned about giving puberty blockers to 1st to 3rd graders and defunding the police.

There was a time when giving children of that age hormone altering drugs was a crime. Now it's considered ok as long as it fits the left's voting bloc agenda.

So I get it. Left wing spends so much time trying to point out the right's crazy, they forget to look at what the Democratic Party is supporting and why people still consider Trump a viable candidate.

I know you never seem to like to bring up the truly insane social issues like the puberty blockers Democrats apparently feel it is ok to give young children to prepare them for transition because of course someone that age should be making permanent life changing decisions, but it's pretty damn insane to me. I don't see why Democrats are blindly supporting something like this any more than I see why Republicans are blindingly supporting Trump.

I hope we gets some sensible leader soon, but given the sheer crazy in these two parties, not sure it's gonna happen.

by **RiverDog** » Sun Jun 19, 2022 5:44 pm

Aseahawkfan wrote:I know you never seem to like to bring up the truly insane social issues like the puberty blockers Democrats apparently feel it is ok to give young children to prepare them for transition because of course someone that age should be making permanent life changing decisions, but it's pretty damn insane to me. I don't see why Democrats are blindly supporting something like this any more than I see why Republicans are blindingly supporting Trump.

I've never heard of these "puberty blockers" that you speak of. Why don't you start a thread about it? I'd like to learn more.

by **Hawktawk** » Mon Jun 20, 2022 7:11 am

curmudgeon wrote:Why is everyone worried about Trump when things are cruising along just fine?…..

As Obama begat Trump Trump gave us Biden . What we need is none of the above

by **Hawktawk** » Mon Jun 20, 2022 7:18 am

RiverDog wrote:A couple of things here:

My opinion of Donald Trump hasn't changed as a result of these hearings. Although they make for good television drama, beat the hell out of daytime TV's game shows and soap operas, and I have learned something in that there were more people than I thought that were close to Trump that tried to tell him that he lost the election, all it has done is reaffirm my opinion that he is a delusional narcissist that can't accept rejection or defeat and engaged in highly illegal and unethical behavior during the aftermath of the election, including inciting the Capitol riot. However, I suspect that, despite the overwhelming evidence to the contrary, very many people who supported DJT have changed their opinion of him due to what they may have learned in these hearings.

They are never going to get DJT on any criminal charges no matter how convincing those charges are. Even if they were able to bring him to trial and get a conviction, he'll never serve a day in jail, and it won't prevent him from running for the White House in 2024. I would rather see them go after people that enabled Trump, guys like Rudy Guiliani, and force them to testify and bring charges against them.

I don't see the purpose of these hearings other than to keep the issue and the members of the committee in the news cycle. If someone can explain to me, beyond what I just said, what the objective of these hearings are, I'd be delighted to hear them.

The hearings are public exposure of an attempted coup however keystone cop the implementation . Of course Trump has committed felonies , treason but he will never be held accountable . The best we can hope is to educate some of the 60 million he convinced he was swindled . When Barr and even Ivanka turn on him it is in fact changing a few minds . Not many . But assuming we make it to 24 the last thing we need is this treasonous putin loving pig back in the Oval Office . What he did to America was evil.

by **Hawktawk** » Mon Jun 20, 2022 9:34 am

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/10-amer ... d=85482369
Quite surprising poll results here. It seems this hearing is having an impact on public opinion. Its the best those who favor stable rational governance can hope for is to disqualify this man from ever holding power again.

by **RiverDog** » Mon Jun 20, 2022 12:05 pm

Hawktawk wrote:https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/10-americans-trump-charged-jan-riot-poll/story?id=85482369
Quite surprising poll results here. It seems this hearing is having an impact on public opinion. Its the best those who favor stable rational governance can hope for is to disqualify this man from ever holding power again.

I'm not so sure. After the last election, I'm not sure how much I trust the polling data.

Here's an opinion from Chris Wallace, a news correspondent that I highly respect for his objectivity. The article is dated June 16th, 2022:

CNN contributor Chris Wallace said on Thursday it is difficult to argue that the January 6th Committee is "making their case" and changing minds when Trump-backed candidates are winning and anti-Trump Republicans are losing.

WALLACE: Well, I think that they have done a very effective job so far. And they have only had two hearings, but the opening sequence in which they basically went through the whole thing and then specifically when they focused on what, you know, what has been called the big lie, the argument that in fact Donald Trump knew that he had lost the election, and continued to pursue this argument that it was a stolen election, a rigged election.

I think they have done a good job of that, but, you know, I was skeptical from the start, and said so before the first hearing about what impact that would have. And all you have to do is look at the results of the primaries on Tuesday (6/14) where you have Tom Rice, one of the very few, I think ten Republicans who voted to impeach Donald Trump over the January 6th riot, he's a five-time -- five-term congressman from South Carolina and not only was he beaten, in the Republican primary, but the election denying challenger, Russell Fry, got 50 plus percent of the vote and this five-term congressman Tom Rice got 25 percent for an incumbent, that's pretty bad.

You also had election deniers winning, including for secretary of state, in the Republican nominee in Nevada, a swing state. So, you know, are they doing an effective job in making their case, yes. Is it going to change people's minds -- I think that's very much to be determined and the early indications are not so much.

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video ... _much.html

by **RiverDog** » Mon Jun 20, 2022 12:22 pm

Hawktawk wrote:Its the best those who favor stable rational governance can hope for is to disqualify this man from ever holding power again.

The committee doesn't have that kind of power. Nobody does, no court of law, including SCOTUS. The only way to have disqualified Trump or anyone else from holding office would have been for Congress to convict him in an impeachment trial, and even then, it's not clear that he couldn't still serve another term.

That's one of the reasons why I was against the hearings (although I've changed my opinion somewhat), because it doesn't do a damn thing to Trump and could have the effect of making him a martyr to his followers and incite his base. One strategy to keep him from the nomination would be to keep his ass out of the news cycle, and this does the exact opposite.

And BTW, the thread title is wrong. It is not a trial. It's a hearing.

by **Aseahawkfan** » Mon Jun 20, 2022 3:11 pm

RiverDog wrote:I've never heard of these "puberty blockers" that you speak of. Why don't you start a thread about it? I'd like to learn more.

Maybe, but the more I read about the Democratic platform, the more I want to divide up the country and let them have their half of the nation building their version of the world and the conservatives can have their half building their version of a world they want to live in. It was brought up when De Santis pushed the Florida bill that the Democrats are complaining discriminates against the homosexual community because Floridians have a problem with 1st to 3rd graders being taught about transgender and homosexual lifestyles at that young of an age and having schools basically indoctrinating people into that lifestyle choice while Democrats at the same time howl about teaching kids religion in school. Just more Democratic hypocrisy pushing their agenda. Just more of the "America has gone insane" rubbish on the left that Democratic supporters conveniently ignore as they call Republicans insane for Trump.

by **Aseahawkfan** » Mon Jun 20, 2022 3:13 pm

RiverDog wrote:The committee doesn't have that kind of power. Nobody does, no court of law, including SCOTUS. The only way to have disqualified Trump or anyone else from holding office would have been for Congress to convict him in an impeachment trial, and even then, it's not clear that he couldn't still serve another term.

That's one of the reasons why I was against the hearings (although I've changed my opinion somewhat), because it doesn't do a damn thing to Trump and could have the effect of making him a martyr to his followers and incite his base. One strategy to keep him from the nomination would be to keep his ass out of the news cycle, and this does the exact opposite.

And BTW, the thread title is wrong. It is not a trial. It's a hearing.

I'm quite fine with a smoke-filled dark room deal myself if it stops Trump from running again. Trump can make a deal not to run again to avoid criminal prosecution. Takes away the martyr card he can play while running for office from a jail cell. If he somehow won re-election from a jail cell, we don't need to find out if he can pardon himself.

by **RiverDog** » Mon Jun 20, 2022 4:00 pm

RiverDog wrote:The committee doesn't have that kind of power. Nobody does, no court of law, including SCOTUS. The only way to have disqualified Trump or anyone else from holding office would have been for Congress to convict him in an impeachment trial, and even then, it's not clear that he couldn't still serve another term.

That's one of the reasons why I was against the hearings (although I've changed my opinion somewhat), because it doesn't do a damn thing to Trump and could have the effect of making him a martyr to his followers and incite his base. One strategy to keep him from the nomination would be to keep his ass out of the news cycle, and this does the exact opposite.

And BTW, the thread title is wrong. It is not a trial. It's a hearing.

Aseahawkfan wrote:I'm quite fine with a smoke-filled dark room deal myself if it stops Trump from running again. Trump can make a deal not to run again to avoid criminal prosecution. Takes away the martyr card he can play while running for office from a jail cell. If he somehow won re-election from a jail cell, we don't need to find out if he can pardon himself.

That won't work. This isn't Jimmy Hoffa and the Teamsters presidency we're talking about, you're dealing with the US Constitution. There is no agreement that anyone could offer that would prevent Trump from running should he accept it. It would be unenforceable because no one has the legal authority to prevent anyone that meets the Constitutional requirements from running for office.

The best hope to keep him from gaining the R nomination would be to put him in jail as it would make it almost impossible to win the nomination, but that's simply not a viable option. Through the endless appeals process, Trump's legal team could go into a 4 corner offense and run out the clock. That's why I'd rather isolate him, keep him out of the news cycle.

by **Aseahawkfan** » Mon Jun 20, 2022 4:49 pm

RiverDog wrote:That won't work. This isn't Jimmy Hoffa and the Teamsters presidency we're talking about, you're dealing with the US Constitution. There is no agreement that anyone could offer that would prevent Trump from running should he accept it. It would be unenforceable because no one has the legal authority to prevent anyone that meets the Constitutional requirements from running for office.

The best hope to keep him from gaining the R nomination would be to put him in jail as it would make it almost impossible to win the nomination, but that's simply not a viable option. Through the endless appeals process, Trump's legal team could go into a 4 corner offense and run out the clock. That's why I'd rather isolate him, keep him out of the news cycle.

You and I both know smoke-filled rooms don't worry about signed papers. They rely on both sides holding leverage over the other side and being willing to use it should the other side violate the terms of the verbal agreement.

by **RiverDog** » Mon Jun 20, 2022 5:52 pm

RiverDog wrote:That won't work. This isn't Jimmy Hoffa and the Teamsters presidency we're talking about, you're dealing with the US Constitution. There is no agreement that anyone could offer that would prevent Trump from running should he accept it. It would be unenforceable because no one has the legal authority to prevent anyone that meets the Constitutional requirements from running for office.

The best hope to keep him from gaining the R nomination would be to put him in jail as it would make it almost impossible to win the nomination, but that's simply not a viable option. Through the endless appeals process, Trump's legal team could go into a 4 corner offense and run out the clock. That's why I'd rather isolate him, keep him out of the news cycle.

Aseahawkfan wrote:You and I both know smoke-filled rooms don't worry about signed papers. They rely on both sides holding leverage over the other side and being willing to use it should the other side violate the terms of the verbal agreement.

And you and I both know that Trump would never abide by any agreement, written, verbal, or subliminal, that comes out of a smoke filled room, or any other room. The smoke filled room would have no leverage over him whatsoever. Trump doesn't give a rip about anyone besides himself, and he'd burn the Republican party to the ground if it meant that he could become POTUS again. He wouldn't care if they lost every Senate and House seat.

Besides, ever since the two parties went to selecting delegates to their conventions via primaries rather than caucuses, the power of the party bosses has been greatly diminished and there aren't anymore smoke filled rooms, at least not as it applies to selecting a nominee. It's a term that has been relegated to the history books. If Trump runs in a primary and wins, the party has to recognize his delegates. If he has enough delegates, he wins the nomination.

by **Aseahawkfan** » Tue Jun 21, 2022 3:23 am

RiverDog wrote:And you and I both know that Trump would never abide by any agreement, written, verbal, or subliminal, that comes out of a smoke filled room, or any other room. The smoke filled room would have no leverage over him whatsoever. Trump doesn't give a rip about anyone besides himself, and he'd burn the Republican party to the ground if it meant that he could become POTUS again. He wouldn't care if they lost every Senate and House seat.

Besides, ever since the two parties went to selecting delegates to their conventions via primaries rather than caucuses, the power of the party bosses has been greatly diminished and there aren't anymore smoke filled rooms, at least not as it applies to selecting a nominee. It's a term that has been relegated to the history books. If Trump runs in a primary and wins, the party has to recognize his delegates. If he has enough delegates, he wins the nomination.

We will disagree on this one. I think Trump is innately a coward. If his options are jail or not running, he'll choose not to run. Trump is no war leader and is not really brave. He talks tough when it's all words and threats, but if it's real jail time he'll make a deal if he can. Trump is a fake tough guy who will continue to act tough as long as he can hide behind his money and lawyers. If that gets taken away from him, he'll come to the table in a smoke-filled room.

But they gotta stick something real and actionable on him he can't squirm out of, so far the Democrats haven't been able to do it.

by **RiverDog** » Tue Jun 21, 2022 6:14 am

Aseahawkfan wrote:We will disagree on this one. I think Trump is innately a coward. If his options are jail or not running, he'll choose not to run. Trump is no war leader and is not really brave. He talks tough when it's all words and threats, but if it's real jail time he'll make a deal if he can. Trump is a fake tough guy who will continue to act tough as long as he can hide behind his money and lawyers. If that gets taken away from him, he'll come to the table in a smoke-filled room.

But they gotta stick something real and actionable on him he can't squirm out of, so far the Democrats haven't been able to do it.

I don't disagree that he's a coward, but courage or the lack of it is irrelevant. They can't stick anything on him, at least nothing that would threaten him with jail time and nothing within the next two years. Face it, we're stuck with him.

by **Stream Hawk** » Tue Jun 21, 2022 7:00 pm

From what I’ve heard there’s a lot of indictable evidence against him. It may come out. I mean, he likely will not do jail time but he should not be allowed to run for president again. Because if he did it’s very likely he will win. America is that freaking stupid. I could not believe what he was pulling after the election.

by **Aseahawkfan** » Wed Jun 22, 2022 2:02 am

I hope if DeSantis runs, he can handle Trump in the primaries. DeSantis is very reasonable. Doesn't seem to get flustered. But he's gonna have to want it to win against Trump and really be ready to go head to head against him. I don't know what other Republican could go against Trump. I don't see Kamala being able to pull enough votes on her own and Biden really needs to turn the economy around by 2024 or he is likely toast. DeSantis isn't Reagan, but he ain't Trump or Biden either. It looks like such a loon show out there right now in politics. A Romney and DeSantis ticket would be nice. Too bad Colin Powell isn't still alive. He could have probably challenged Trump too. I don't even know who the reasonable Democrats are any more other than Manchin whose more old school labor Democrat than these new school green socialists that seem part of Cortez's wing.

The ideal ticket for me at this point would be Mitt Romney and Ron DeSantis as VP or vice versa. Two very stable and reasonable politicians who don't incite crazy and maintain their cool even under intense criticism or circumstances from the Democratic left.

by **RiverDog** » Wed Jun 22, 2022 3:42 am

Stream Hawk wrote:From what I’ve heard there’s a lot of indictable evidence against him. It may come out. I mean, he likely will not do jail time but he should not be allowed to run for president again. Because if he did it’s very likely he will win. America is that freaking stupid. I could not believe what he was pulling after the election.

That's the problem. There is nothing preventing a convicted criminal from running for POTUS. The only requirements are what is laid out in the Constitution, ie minimum age, country of birth, and residency. Trump could run his campaign from his jail cell.

And as you noted, the odds that Trump would get convicted of a crime, let alone serve time, are virtually zero. It would be impossible to select an impartial jury.

by **Aseahawkfan** » Wed Jun 22, 2022 1:40 pm

RiverDog wrote:That's the problem. There is nothing preventing a convicted criminal from running for POTUS. The only requirements are what is laid out in the Constitution, ie minimum age, country of birth, and residency. Trump could run his campaign from his jail cell.

And as you noted, the odds that Trump would get convicted of a crime, let alone serve time, are virtually zero. It would be impossible to select an impartial jury.

How easy would it be for a lawyer to get a mistrial due to jury selection? That is interesting. How would you prove the person didn't love or hate Trump? He seems to inspire either loathing or absolute loyalty. It would be nearly impossible to obtain an impartial jury. Any decent lawyer would have a field day with it. It would give Trump massive media exposure to try him to ramp his followers up. It's like having an almost no win situation.

by **RiverDog** » Wed Jun 22, 2022 3:00 pm

Aseahawkfan wrote:How easy would it be for a lawyer to get a mistrial due to jury selection? That is interesting. How would you prove the person didn't love or hate Trump? He seems to inspire either loathing or absolute loyalty. It would be nearly impossible to obtain an impartial jury. Any decent lawyer would have a field day with it. It would give Trump massive media exposure to try him to ramp his followers up. It's like having an almost no win situation.

Exactly! Do you see now why I originally was against these hearings?

Having heard some of the very emotional and gripping testimony, I feel that the hearings has done some good, that it might have influenced some voters, so in that sense, I've changed my mind about them. But as a matter of practicality, there is nothing to be gained except to grease the wheels of some Democratic pols and to run Liz Cheney's political future into the ground. Too bad, because she's one Republican that I'd crawl on my hands and knees to the voting booth to vote for.

by **Aseahawkfan** » Wed Jun 22, 2022 3:17 pm

RiverDog wrote:Exactly! Do you see now why I originally was against these hearings?

Having heard some of the very emotional and gripping testimony, I feel that the hearings has done some good, that it might have influenced some voters, so in that sense, I've changed my mind about them. But as a matter of practicality, there is nothing to be gained except to grease the wheels of some Democratic pols and to run Liz Cheney's political future into the ground. Too bad, because she's one Republican that I'd crawl on my hands and knees to the voting booth to vote for.

I really wonder how many people it has swayed. I have seen no changes in people I know voted for Trump. They consider these hearings a sham and consider the Democrats obsessed with Trump. While at the same time hating Joe Biden even worse for all that is going wrong on right now.

Do you know some people who have changed their minds? Hopefully you're seeing the changed minds.

by **RiverDog** » Wed Jun 22, 2022 7:57 pm

RiverDog wrote:Exactly! Do you see now why I originally was against these hearings?

Having heard some of the very emotional and gripping testimony, I feel that the hearings has done some good, that it might have influenced some voters, so in that sense, I've changed my mind about them. But as a matter of practicality, there is nothing to be gained except to grease the wheels of some Democratic pols and to run Liz Cheney's political future into the ground. Too bad, because she's one Republican that I'd crawl on my hands and knees to the voting booth to vote for.

Aseahawkfan wrote:I really wonder how many people it has swayed. I have seen no changes in people I know voted for Trump. They consider these hearings a sham and consider the Democrats obsessed with Trump. While at the same time hating Joe Biden even worse for all that is going wrong on right now.

Do you know some people who have changed their minds? Hopefully you're seeing the changed minds.

The answer to your question is no, I do not know anyone that has changed their mind regarding Trump due to the hearings. But I don't have regular contact with a lot of MAGA types. Most of what I gather from my friends, mostly classmates and former co-workers, is through social media, and the political talk has been pretty quiet. If they did change their minds, they aren't likely to go onto social media and announce it.

However, there is some evidence to suggest that it has swayed some voters. I don't believe its to the extent that the polling data that HT posted and I don't think that there's enough in its own right to justify the hearings, but I do think there are at least a few, perhaps 5%.

by **Aseahawkfan** » Wed Jun 22, 2022 8:06 pm

RiverDog wrote:The answer to your question is no, I do not know anyone that has changed their mind regarding Trump due to the hearings. But I don't have regular contact with a lot of MAGA types. Most of what I gather from my friends, mostly classmates and former co-workers, is through social media, and the political talk has been pretty quiet. If they did change their minds, they aren't likely to go onto social media and announce it.

However, there is some evidence to suggest that it has swayed some voters. I don't believe its to the extent that the polling data that HT posted and I don't think that there's enough in its own right to justify the hearings, but I do think there are at least a few, perhaps 5%.

If it is a real 5%, it would stop Trump from winning more than likely. These elections have been so tight lately, 5% is pretty substantial depending on the state.

We'll have more of a feel for how things are later this year.

by **RiverDog** » Wed Jun 22, 2022 8:46 pm

RiverDog wrote:The answer to your question is no, I do not know anyone that has changed their mind regarding Trump due to the hearings. But I don't have regular contact with a lot of MAGA types. Most of what I gather from my friends, mostly classmates and former co-workers, is through social media, and the political talk has been pretty quiet. If they did change their minds, they aren't likely to go onto social media and announce it.

However, there is some evidence to suggest that it has swayed some voters. I don't believe its to the extent that the polling data that HT posted and I don't think that there's enough in its own right to justify the hearings, but I do think there are at least a few, perhaps 5%.

Aseahawkfan wrote:If it is a real 5%, it would stop Trump from winning more than likely. These elections have been so tight lately, 5% is pretty substantial depending on the state.

We'll have more of a feel for how things are later this year.

Which is one of the reasons why I think that the hearings have some merit. If Biden runs again, he's going to need every voter he can scrape up. The more damage that can be done to Trump, the better.

by **curmudgeon** » Thu Jun 23, 2022 11:57 am

I think Biden runs again. The media and Dems need to do a better job with explaining how “good” the “transition” is. Once America realizes this, Biden wins in a landslide..

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