Midterm Elections

[c_hawkbob]

I will, 100%. I saw him with my own eyes and heard him with my own ears. I don't nee any spin doctors to tell me what really happened.

[Aseahawkfan]

The midterm was a humongous win for the democrats . An unpopular president , inflation , economy , war , pandemic confusion and they have a 7 seat majority in the amateur hour house while losing a seat in the senate where the power is at . Repubs got smoked like a cheap joint . Nobody expected this a few months ago . And it was Trump and abortion .

No, it wasn't. It wasn't a huge win for either party.

Both parties had huge issues to push. The Democrats had abortion. The Republicans had inflation and the economy. All each party managed to do was maintain the status quo with the GOP taking the House and the Democrats maintaining equity or taking the Senate. Democrats held the House before this midterms, so not sure how you see this as a humongous win for the Democrats when they literally lost control of the House and barely maintained the Senate.

No Red Wave and no Blue wave, just the status quo and continued division with the voters.

I'm glad IDhawkman is back just to show the Democrat voters that the Republicans are as confident and have as many reasons to be confident as Democrats because neither party did much this midterm other than show the division in America right now.

If the Republicans weren't so entrenched with abortion and settled that issue, they would take the Congress and presidency fairly easy in two years in my opinion. Abortion literally saved the Democrats from much bigger losses.

[Aseahawkfan]

Yeah, I'm not aware of the FBI 'clearing' Trump, either. I won't go so far as to say with 100% certainty that Trump 'instigated' the riot, but he damn sure didn't lift a finger to prevent it or to protect the lives of those that were threatened on that day. At the very least, he's guilty of dereliction of duty and violated his oath of office.

Trump instigated the riot by lying about the election. No one shows up to riot if not for him whining about the election being stolen. He threw his own VP under the bus calling him a coward for not standing with him to deny a legally completed election. He encouraged a ridiculous fight across 50 states where he couldn't even prove election fraud in Georgia where a well-known and already accused of election tampering by Democrats Republican told him he found no signs of election tampering to warrant an investigation. Then he tried to intimidate other Republicans like Pence and Raffensberger into supporting him with what can only be termed an illegal phone call that sounded like some mob boss threatening a politician.

I don't think it was an insurrection myself because it wasn't organized enough to be an insurrection. It was clearly a riot. It was clearly caused by Trump spreading unfounded election lies on the basis of his word.

I do partially blame the Democrats because I watched the Democrats allow a violent takeover of six city blocks including a police station in Capitol Hill in Seattle while doing next to nothing until someone was murdered with the supposed leaders of the city takeover denying commerce in the area and emergency services from accessing the area. The Mayor called it a "summer of love" and made light of it until some of these same folks gathered and lived for a while outside her house until she ordered the police to clear them. More of the "I'm a Democrat hypocrite who calls out Trump for his behavior, but completely ignores the scumbag behavior of Democrats" while they wonder why Republicans and some independent voters are pissed off at Democrats. Like we're all stupid and can't see the homeless drug addict camps, vandalism, and general crime they are not policing and saying isn't there because they moved the goalposts for what a crime is to manipulate the crime statistics as they have done in Washington State. All of it documented such as raising the amount of goods that need to be stolen before it is considered felony theft and telling the police not to interdict drug crime or breakup homeless camps as long as they are only exchanging small amounts of drugs or doing small scale, non-violent property crime like breaking into people's cars or houses ands stealing only a little bit.

Fact is these two parties have been fueling each other's crazy with legitimate and obvious policy moves aimed at making them look more effective than they are. An example we often talk about is Republicans don't practice fiscal conservatism as many voters like you and myself want. And Democrats don't help the working class with their soft on crime policies and anti-police bills that handcuff the police while allowing the spread of crime they attempt to hide by moving the goalposts and manipulating statistics when doing so while we all have to deal with heroin zombies breaking into our cars and infesting our parks and city areas with their camps.

I'd tear both these parties down if I could because they don't care about America worth a damn. And Trump doesn't care either. Biden is just generally lost. I can only imagine his advisers are making sure he appears competent with policy at this point.

[Aseahawkfan]

The only reason I can imagine the IDhawkman believes the F.B.I. cleared Trump is they did not charge him, so thus they must have cleared him. If there were clear evidence of a crime, it would seem the F.B.I. would have charged and arrested him.

I'm not sure as I buy that as it seems if you are a politician or president, it is extremely hard for an America law enforcement agency to go after you without the say so of someone in a particular political party with enough power to back the agency.

For all of us if we commit a crime and it is public or found out, we're all done. But if you are an American politician, especially president, you can seemingly do all kinds of questionable activities and skate on by. Seems to occur even at the state level as well. Maybe even local.

[RiverDog]

Trump instigated the riot by lying about the election. No one shows up to riot if not for him whining about the election being stolen. He threw his own VP under the bus calling him a coward for not standing with him to deny a legally completed election. He encouraged a ridiculous fight across 50 states where he couldn't even prove election fraud in Georgia where a well-known and already accused of election tampering by Democrats Republican told him he found no signs of election tampering to warrant an investigation. Then he tried to intimidate other Republicans like Pence and Raffensberger into supporting him with what can only be termed an illegal phone call that sounded like some mob boss threatening a politician.

I can't say that I disagree with that, but speaking strictly from a legal standpoint, it's pretty difficult to prove. If you give a speech and you tell your audience to "Go out and fight like hell" and they take it literally, are you to blame for instigating it? To a certain degree, maybe. But it's possible that Trump felt that he was speaking in a figurative sense.

I don't think it was an insurrection myself because it wasn't organized enough to be an insurrection. It was clearly a riot. It was clearly caused by Trump spreading unfounded election lies on the basis of his word.

I do partially blame the Democrats because I watched the Democrats allow a violent takeover of six city blocks including a police station in Capitol Hill in Seattle while doing next to nothing until someone was murdered with the supposed leaders of the city takeover denying commerce in the area and emergency services from accessing the area. The Mayor called it a "summer of love" and made light of it until some of these same folks gathered and lived for a while outside her house until she ordered the police to clear them. More of the "I'm a Democrat hypocrite who calls out Trump for his behavior, but completely ignores the scumbag behavior of Democrats" while they wonder why Republicans and some independent voters are pissed off at Democrats. Like we're all stupid and can't see the homeless drug addict camps, vandalism, and general crime they are not policing and saying isn't there because they moved the goalposts for what a crime is to manipulate the crime statistics as they have done in Washington State. All of it documented such as raising the amount of goods that need to be stolen before it is considered felony theft and telling the police not to interdict drug crime or breakup homeless camps as long as they are only exchanging small amounts of drugs or doing small scale, non-violent property crime like breaking into people's cars or houses ands stealing only a little bit.

I agree that it wasn't an insurrection. I don't think that any of the rioters thought that they were going to topple the government, which is the definition of an insurrection. The Dems and the media like throwing that term around for effect. It's strictly an opinion, but I think that there were a number of underlying causes that culminated in that riot, and you touched on several of them, including Trump's lies, the Dem/libs tepid response to the BLM riots the previous summer. I also think that these social media platforms, ie Facebook and Twitter, that allowed all these moonbats to congregate and feed off each other's hate, had a roll in it, too.

Fact is these two parties have been fueling each other's crazy with legitimate and obvious policy moves aimed at making them look more effective than they are. An example we often talk about is Republicans don't practice fiscal conservatism as many voters like you and myself want. And Democrats don't help the working class with their soft on crime policies and anti-police bills that handcuff the police while allowing the spread of crime they attempt to hide by moving the goalposts and manipulating statistics when doing so while we all have to deal with heroin zombies breaking into our cars and infesting our parks and city areas with their camps.

I'd tear both these parties down if I could because they don't care about America worth a damn. And Trump doesn't care either. Biden is just generally lost. I can only imagine his advisers are making sure he appears competent with policy at this point.

Yeah, it's a mess. I'm ready for a 3rd party.

[RiverDog]

To the claim that the FBI "cleared Trump":

CLAIM: The FBI has cleared President Donald Trump “of any guilt, any connection” to the Jan. 6 attack on the Capitol.

AP’S ASSESSMENT: False. There is no record of the federal law enforcement agency making such a statement.

https://apnews.com/article/fact-checkin ... 9920241957

To be fair, the FBI didn't find any evidence that directly tied Trump or those in his inner circle to the planning or execution of the riot, but that doesn't mean that they 'cleared' him, nor does it mean that Trump didn't play a critical role in it. As I-5 said, if Trump hadn't spent weeks promoting conspiracy theories, the riot most likely doesn't happen. And like I said earlier, once it became obvious that an extremely dangerous, lethal situation existed, Trump did absolutely nothing to stop it, which in my mind, is the worst thing that he did, or rather didn't do, on that day. It's incredible to me how a person could be so callous as to not immediately and without hesitation come to the aid of a fellow human being or beings when their lives are in danger.

https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-n ... ort-2021-8

[I-5]

I agree that it wasn't an insurrection. I don't think that any of the rioters thought that they were going to topple the government, which is the definition of an insurrection.

Rioters admitted bringing guns, ammo, and zip ties to the capitol. Whatever you want to call it is ok with me, but what we can't do is minimize it. If I walked to the Capitol building tomorrow with those same items on my body and successfully trespassed into the Capitol during session, what would the consequence be for my action?

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/justice-department/armed-jan-6-rioter-zip-ties-capitol-attack-friend-testifies-trial-rcna18733ers

[RiverDog]

I agree that it wasn't an insurrection. I don't think that any of the rioters thought that they were going to topple the government, which is the definition of an insurrection.

Rioters admitted bringing guns, ammo, and zip ties to the capitol. Whatever you want to call it is ok with me, but what we can't do is minimize it. If I walked to the Capitol building tomorrow with those same items on my body and successfully trespassed into the Capitol during session, what would the consequence be for my action?

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/justice-department/armed-jan-6-rioter-zip-ties-capitol-attack-friend-testifies-trial-rcna18733ers

They needed to call it what it was. The event needed no dramatization.

I honestly don't know what the consequences are for such actions. Personally, if an individual enters a place like that by force and armed as they were, they should have been shot without hesitation. I know that if somebody came like that onto my property, crashing down barricades and fighting with police, I'd shoot their arse without giving it a second thought.

[Aseahawkfan]

Rioters admitted bringing guns, ammo, and zip ties to the capitol. Whatever you want to call it is ok with me, but what we can't do is minimize it. If I walked to the Capitol building tomorrow with those same items on my body and successfully trespassed into the Capitol during session, what would the consequence be for my action?

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/justice-department/armed-jan-6-rioter-zip-ties-capitol-attack-friend-testifies-trial-rcna18733ers

Not sure to be honest. I've seen armed men enter state capitol sessions as a show of support for the 2nd Amendment. Not sure what the law is in the nation's capitol. So it would depend on the local laws and purpose of your visit. Are you protesting? Are you standing up for the 2nd Amendment? Do you intend to commit a crime?

That's why I don't see it as an insurrection. They were not well organized at all. If that group had been well organized and as armed as the liberal media and Democrats say they were, I 100% guarantee there would have been way more people dead and Senators and Reps kidnapped or worse. They would have been major shootouts between the police and likely military or at least S.W.A.T. if if were an organized insurrection by armed and coordinated Americans.

To me it looked like a riot by a bunch of angry people who felt wronged by the government and wanted to vent their rage for a variety of reasons including Trump's lies, but also for the lockdowns and all associated with it.

We all watched them on TV. It isn't some hidden event. There were no major shoot outs. No taking Senators and House reps hostage. No mass killings of police or by the police. It was a mix of people rioting. Some angry and venting. Some along for the ride watching. Some interested in taking things. Some straight up looney like Qanon Shaman. It looked like par for the course for the Trump years, a final kick in the teeth to America courtesy of the Narcissistic Loon and another example of a man without real strength letting others do his dirty work for him as he winds them up into a frenzy with no plan and for no other purpose than to cause chaos and throw a tantrum.

[idhawkman]

https://biggs.house.gov/media/op-eds/townhall-january-6th-committee-kindly-asks-you-ignore-fbi

Again, what the media refuses to cover is worse than what they do cover.

I have to ask both of you though, why do you think the FBI has been holding scores of people in the DC jail for almost two years while ruining their lives but not trump? The FBI cleared him within a couple of weeks especially since he told supporters that day to peacefully protest the election.

Now ask yourself why did pelosi and bowser refuse to accept trumps offers (multiple times) days before Jan 6 to have thousands of guard troops activated in the Capitol? Now also ask why tHe FBI had multiple informants and agents in the Jan 6 crowd agitating the people? You might also ask why the FBI altered the video outside the DNC campaign office regarding the placing of the pipe bomb. You may then ask why the secret service and bomb dogs didn't discover the bomb under the bench when they cleared the area for v.p. Elect Harris' visit that morning? None of these questions are being answered by this administration because the media isn't asking on behalf of the people.

[idhawkman]

Rioters admitted bringing guns, ammo, and zip ties to the capitol. Whatever you want to call it is ok with me, but what we can't do is minimize it. If I walked to the Capitol building tomorrow with those same items on my body and successfully trespassed into the Capitol during session, what would the consequence be for my action?

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/justice-department/armed-jan-6-rioter-zip-ties-capitol-attack-friend-testifies-trial-rcna18733ers

Did you read the article you posted? Neither of those loons entered the Capitol with their firearms. Contrary to popular belief, no rioters were armed that entered the Capitol that day. No Capitol police were killed that day by rioters either. These are the reasons they call it an insurrection and not an armed insurrection and why the charges being levied are "unlawful parading". No trespassing charges have been charged because you can't charge someone for trespassing on their own property (remember, this is the people's house meaning it belongs to the public)

[RiverDog]

Rioters admitted bringing guns, ammo, and zip ties to the capitol. Whatever you want to call it is ok with me, but what we can't do is minimize it. If I walked to the Capitol building tomorrow with those same items on my body and successfully trespassed into the Capitol during session, what would the consequence be for my action?

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/justice-department/armed-jan-6-rioter-zip-ties-capitol-attack-friend-testifies-trial-rcna18733ers

Did you read the article you posted? Neither of those loons entered the Capitol with their firearms. Contrary to popular belief, no rioters were armed that entered the Capitol that day. No Capitol police were killed that day by rioters either. These are the reasons they call it an insurrection and not an armed insurrection and why the charges being levied are "unlawful parading". No trespassing charges have been charged because you can't charge someone for trespassing on their own property (remember, this is the people's house meaning it belongs to the public)

What do you mean none of the rioters had been charged with trespassing?

The News Journal reports that Jeffrey Schaefer was arrested Thursday on four charges related to trespassing in the U.S. Capitol on Jan. 6, 2021. Court documents state that Schaefer is associated with an address outside of Milton.

https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states ... pitol-riot

And no one entered the Capitol that day armed? Here's one that was not only charged, but convicted:

Guy Reffitt from Texas was given 87 months in jail after a jury found him guilty of five felony charges. These included transporting and carrying a firearm on Capitol grounds, interfering with Capitol Police and obstructing an official proceeding.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-60265900

And here's another:

Christopher Alberts, of Maryland, was charged on Jan. 7, 2021, with carrying or having readily accessible, on the grounds of the United States Capitol Building, a firearm and ammunition. Specifically a Taurus G2C, 9mm handgun and 9mm caliber ammunition. The defendant appeared in district court and was released. He has a preliminary hearing scheduled for Jan. 28, 2021.

I'll agree that the majority of rioters did not bring firearms onto the Capitol grounds and none may not have actually entered the building carrying them, a mere technicality. But when you are carrying bear spray, brass knuckles, baseball bats, hockey sticks, and are clad in body armor, they were equipped with deadly weapons that had but one potential use.

And let's not get "public property" confused with "private property." You most certainly can be charged with trespassing if you unlawfully enter a public building or grounds.

[RiverDog]

The FBI cleared him (Trump) within a couple of weeks especially since he told supporters that day to peacefully protest the election.

Once again, the FBI did not "clear" Trump of anything, and I challenge you to post a statement from the FBI that supports your claim that it did. The FBI did not find any evidence of Trump or his associates' involvement in the planning and execution of the riot. It doesn't mean that Trump's 'cleared.' It's an irrelevant point anyway as no one that I know of has accused Trump or his surrogates of planning or coordinating the event.

[c_hawkbob]

Oh come on, planning and coordinating the event is exactly what took place! That's why Bannon and Stone and the whole clown posse were telling everyone what was going to happen on 1/6, it's not at all as though this were a spontaneous event. The 1/6 committee is amassing a ton of evidence as to it preplanned and coordinated nature.

[RiverDog]

Oh come on, planning and coordinating the event is exactly what took place! That's why Bannon and Stone and the whole clown posse were telling everyone what was going to happen on 1/6, it's not at all as though this were a spontaneous event. The 1/6 committee is amassing a ton of evidence as to it preplanned and coordinated nature.

There might be evidence out there, but none that the FBI has uncovered, at least none that I am aware of. As a matter of fact, the FBI said that there was 'little evidence' that it was planned at all:

FBI finds no evidence that Trump and his allies were directly involved with organizing the violence of the Capitol riot: report

The officials also said that the FBI has "so far found no evidence" that former President Donald Trump or "people directly around him were involved in organizing the violence," Reuters reported.

It also found little evidence of an organized plot to overturn the election results.

https://www.reuters.com/world/us/exclus ... 021-08-20/

I also wouldn't consider Stone and Bannon as being "directly around" Trump.

[Hawktawk]

1 Capitol police officer was bludgeoned in the head with a fire extinguisher and died a day later . 148 Capitol police officers were injured . 4 I believe committed suicide in the following days . Ashley Babbitt was killed by secret service as she attempted to breach the chamber . 3 other rioters died of suffocation or natural causes .


Violent rioters were within 50 feet of pence at one point . I’ve heard voice mails from pences security details, read texts . They were in fear of their and the Vice President Pences lives . And as trump
Tweeted pence had lacked courage to do the right thing they began chanting “ hang mike pence” in real time .

Planned smanned. Organized ? By some groups sure . An attempt to terrify lawmakers into voting against certifying the will of over 80 million people . And trump sat and watched and tweeted such inflammatory stuff he had NSA etc adminstration officials resigning on the spot , begged by aides and politicians under seige to make a statement condemning the violence . The best after hours upon hours of delay was “ we love you , please go home “ .

Trump is an evil empty vile pos . I was more right about him then Geno unfortunately. Geno may be playing pro bowl level but Trump is a HOF piece of crap. The GOAT. It’s a statement on America if anyone supports him at this point. It’s a mental illness . If I was in charge he’d be doing life for what he’s done . It’s gonna be an all night party when he quits wasting oxygen .

[c_hawkbob]

That's a pretty old link there Riv. A lot has changed since then.

[RiverDog]

That's a pretty old link there Riv. A lot has changed since then.

It's all I could find. If you can find something to the contrary, then by all means, please share it with the group. And remember, we're talking about evidence that the FBI has collected.

[c_hawkbob]

The FBI itself has been, and continues to be in self defense mode over their not doing enough to warn ahead of the insurrection. anything they say must be viewed in that damage control light.

“You have to remember, this is the federal government, dude. Bureaucracy is in the FBI’s f---ing name,” Fulton told NBC News this month.

... “What we don’t want is the FBI becoming Hoover’s FBI again. We don’t want the FBI out there investigating people for no reason, right?” Fulton said. “And we don’t want those investigations to last forever.”

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/justic ... -rcna38615

[RiverDog]

The FBI itself has been, and continues to be in self defense mode over their not doing enough to warn ahead of the insurrection. anything they say must be viewed in that damage control light.

“You have to remember, this is the federal government, dude. Bureaucracy is in the FBI’s f---ing name,” Fulton told NBC News this month.

... “What we don’t want is the FBI becoming Hoover’s FBI again. We don’t want the FBI out there investigating people for no reason, right?” Fulton said. “And we don’t want those investigations to last forever.”

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/justic ... -rcna38615

And what does that have to do with the point I raised and that I thought that you were contesting, ie that the FBI does not have any evidence of Trump's involvement or advance knowledge of any plans for the riot/insurrection ahead of Jan. 6th? You said a lot has changed since the dates on the links I posted (Aug. 2021), so it shouldn't be too hard for you to find something timelier if you think that the information I posted is incorrect.

[Hawktawk]

https://www.mediaite.com/tv/erection-tr ... oes-viral/
If there's a microcosm of the republican party Trump has created its this dunce right here. Trumps hand picked best for America MAGA guy.
And he says this stuff with Cruz and Graham right beside him on air Some of these responses to it are hilarious.

But I wish those who still want to be part of this clown show would drop the name republican. You're not republican's .

Liz Cheney is a Republican so the red neck fascist Trumpanzees voted her out. But walker is so phony, such a hypocrite, so dense hes going down in Georgia which will give Dems a gain of 1 in a midterm and some are whistling in the graveyard saying they did OK in these midterms .
Trumpanzees can investigate all they want. Push a hard right agenda .Its going nowhere. None of their radical bills are getting passed although there actually is a bit of bipartisanship on the dem side as weve seen. Biden's already said hes looking forward to seeing if he can work with the new congress.

Yeah when *republicans* line up behind a phony idiot like this I hate them even more. This is NOT the party of Lincoln and Reagan. Its evil.

[c_hawkbob]

The FBI itself has been, and continues to be in self defense mode over their not doing enough to warn ahead of the insurrection. anything they say must be viewed in that damage control light.

“You have to remember, this is the federal government, dude. Bureaucracy is in the FBI’s f---ing name,” Fulton told NBC News this month.

... “What we don’t want is the FBI becoming Hoover’s FBI again. We don’t want the FBI out there investigating people for no reason, right?” Fulton said. “And we don’t want those investigations to last forever.”

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/justic ... -rcna38615

And what does that have to do with the point I raised and that I thought that you were contesting, ie that the FBI does not have any evidence of Trump's involvement or advance knowledge of any plans for the riot/insurrection ahead of Jan. 6th? You said a lot has changed since the dates on the links I posted (Aug. 2021), so it shouldn't be too hard for you to find something timelier if you think that the information I posted is incorrect.

That you are not likely to find the FBI saying they have findings that the insurrection was preplanned as it would be an admission of them not doing their jobs.

[RiverDog]

And what does that have to do with the point I raised and that I thought that you were contesting, ie that the FBI does not have any evidence of Trump's involvement or advance knowledge of any plans for the riot/insurrection ahead of Jan. 6th? You said a lot has changed since the dates on the links I posted (Aug. 2021), so it shouldn't be too hard for you to find something timelier if you think that the information I posted is incorrect.

That you are not likely to find the FBI saying they have findings that the insurrection was preplanned as it would be an admission of them not doing their jobs.

So why did you say "That's a pretty old link there Riv. A lot has changed since then", which would suggest that you felt that the FBI may have uncovered information implicating Trump in a conspiracy since the time of that article I linked?

All I said was that the FBI does not have any evidence of Trump's involvement or advance knowledge of the riot and that they had very little evidence that it had been planned at all, and by the sounds of it, you agree with that statement. Is that correct?

To the point you raised, yes, I agree that there is considerable motivation for the FBI not to thoroughly and completely investigate the possible preplanning of the riot for fear of implicating themselves. It's the same problem they have when any intelligence failure or preventable accident occurs (9/11, Challenger accident, etc), that the same people that were tasked with preventing it are the ones being asked to investigate it.

[c_hawkbob]

I honestly don't understand what your issue is. I guess I just don't adhere stringently enough with your narrow interpretation of what is fair game in a reply to you. I'll try to do better.

[RiverDog]

I honestly don't understand what your issue is. I guess I just don't adhere stringently enough with your narrow interpretation of what is fair game in a reply to you. I'll try to do better.

You had seemed to disagree with my statement that the FBI didn't have any evidence of Trump's involvement in the riot prior to Jan. 6th, indicating that the information I had was old. I wanted to know if the FBI, indeed, did have evidence but that it had eluded me, so I asked you to provide a source. It was an important point as Idahawkman had claimed that the FBI had exonerated Trump of any wrongdoing in the attack, so I wanted to see all the information on the FBI's findings about Trump's involvement that I could. I thought that maybe you knew something I didn't (wouldn't have been the first time, eh? ).

I didn't feel that your point was irrelevant or not fair game for a general discussion about the riot and the subsequent investigations. It's just that it didn't apply in the specific circumstance that I was addressing when you responded to me.

[Aseahawkfan]

Oh come on, planning and coordinating the event is exactly what took place! That's why Bannon and Stone and the whole clown posse were telling everyone what was going to happen on 1/6, it's not at all as though this were a spontaneous event. The 1/6 committee is amassing a ton of evidence as to it preplanned and coordinated nature.

Well, we'll see soon I hope, before Donald is truly running for president again and on the campaign trail and possibly winning this time around.

You can already see Trump supporters like Idhawkman are completely unmoved by these assertions. The Congress is now split with the House Republicans now able to slow or halt investigations. Trump has full access to Twitter. If he wins the nomination, I expect like last time all the former Republicans taking shots at him and trying to take him out to get behind him to take the White House to push their agenda.

The Committee had a few years to build their case. Hopefully they will present it soon and it will have some teeth and Trump won't skate on by again, run for president again, and against an 82 year old Biden with no limitations on his rallies, Twitter, and TV use to win again.

As far as proving an insurrection, it's going take more than show up to protest the election result. They will have to prove Trump intended the mob to attack Congress, bring arms, and reverse the election by violence. I currently have not seen that evidence that he did so. There certainly were not any shootouts.

But nothing would make me happier than to see him taken out by the legal system, it just doesn't seem to be working.

[RiverDog]

Oh come on, planning and coordinating the event is exactly what took place! That's why Bannon and Stone and the whole clown posse were telling everyone what was going to happen on 1/6, it's not at all as though this were a spontaneous event. The 1/6 committee is amassing a ton of evidence as to it preplanned and coordinated nature.

Well, we'll see soon I hope, before Donald is truly running for president again and on the campaign trail and possibly winning this time around.

You can already see Trump supporters like Idhawkman are completely unmoved by these assertions. The Congress is now split with the House Republicans now able to slow or halt investigations. Trump has full access to Twitter. If he wins the nomination, I expect like last time all the former Republicans taking shots at him and trying to take him out to get behind him to take the White House to push their agenda.

The Committee had a few years to build their case. Hopefully they will present it soon and it will have some teeth and Trump won't skate on by again, run for president again, and against an 82 year old Biden with no limitations on his rallies, Twitter, and TV use to win again.

As far as proving an insurrection, it's going take more than show up to protest the election result. They will have to prove Trump intended the mob to attack Congress, bring arms, and reverse the election by violence. I currently have not seen that evidence that he did so. There certainly were not any shootouts.

But nothing would make me happier than to see him taken out by the legal system, it just doesn't seem to be working.

Nothing would make me happier than seeing DJT eating off a tin plate, but it ain't gonna happen.

Do you remember our debate about the death penalty and why I was against it? Because the legal system is so perverted and untenable that very few capital convicts are actually executed and those that are only after the taxpayers have spent millions on prosecuting them. The failure to get Trump when he's as dirty as all get out proves how screwed up it is. All his lawyers have to do is to is go into a 4-corner offense and run out the clock. Trump will never be held accountable for any of his many, many transgressions until he's standing at the pearly gates.

[I-5]

I haven't seen a single comment here that anyone thinks Trump is going to jail. I don't think he ever is.

But I think he can and SHOULD be indicted based on the evidence we've all seen so far. Indictment is enough for me. If he's not indicted, then we are saying that some are indeed above the law.

[Aseahawkfan]

I haven't seen a single comment here that anyone thinks Trump is going to jail. I don't think he ever is.

But I think he can and SHOULD be indicted based on the evidence we've all seen so far. Indictment is enough for me. If he's not indicted, then we are saying that some are indeed above the law.

Trump has already been impeached. Attacked in just about every way publicly. Screwed up the handling of an pandemic. Was completely limited in his rallies during the campaign during COVID. And still he came within a few million votes of winning a second term.

Trump's base views any indictments as political attacks on Trump. They don't stop him from running.

When you have most of a political party driven by hate for the other side like Republicans are driven by right now, the rational doesn't super well well.

Trump appeals to emotion, not reason. Humans are emotionally driven creatures with a rare few who truly embrace rational thought as their primary driver of behavior. So letting a narcissistic loon like Trump with a powerful charisma able to tap into the emotions of his base run again is playing with fire and hoping to not get burned.

[RiverDog]

I haven't seen a single comment here that anyone thinks Trump is going to jail. I don't think he ever is.

But I think he can and SHOULD be indicted based on the evidence we've all seen so far. Indictment is enough for me. If he's not indicted, then we are saying that some are indeed above the law.

You're preaching to the choir, bro. Indictment isn't enough for me, but I'm enough of a realist to know that it's all we're going to get.

I'm not saying that Trump shouldn't be pursued with every possible resource available to prosecutors. I do think it's important for the historical record to get as much crap into the books as possible so that people will be able to look back on this period of time during American history and see everything that the POS did.

[RiverDog]

Trump has already been impeached. Attacked in just about every way publicly. Screwed up the handling of an pandemic. Was completely limited in his rallies during the campaign during COVID. And still he came within a few million votes of winning a second term.

Trump's base views any indictments as political attacks on Trump. They don't stop him from running.

When you have most of a political party driven by hate for the other side like Republicans are driven by right now, the rational doesn't super well well.

Trump appeals to emotion, not reason. Humans are emotionally driven creatures with a rare few who truly embrace rational thought as their primary driver of behavior. So letting a narcissistic loon like Trump with a powerful charisma able to tap into the emotions of his base run again is playing with fire and hoping to not get burned.

That's the truth. If what Trump has endured to this point of his political career isn't enough to run him out of office and out of the party...banging pornstars and paying them off, shaking down a head of state for dirt on is political opponent, on a recording phone call demanding that a state SOS to 'find' votes, standing by idling during the Capitol riot and putting lives at risk due to his inaction...then there's almost no chance that he could do anything that would change the equation. Even if he were to be convicted of a mass shooting in a grade school, it wouldn't be enough for some to give him up.

50-60 years ago, if just one of those half dozen or so scandals that Trump has had became public about any elected official, it would have been more than enough to ruin their career.

[Aseahawkfan]

That's the truth. If what Trump has endured to this point of his political career isn't enough to run him out of office and out of the party...banging pornstars and paying them off, shaking down a head of state for dirt on is political opponent, on a recording phone call demanding that a state SOS to 'find' votes, standing by idling during the Capitol riot and putting lives at risk due to his inaction...then there's almost no chance that he could do anything that would change the equation. Even if he were to be convicted of a mass shooting in a grade school, it wouldn't be enough for some to give him up.

50-60 years ago, if just one of those half dozen or so scandals that Trump has had became public about any elected official, it would have been more than enough to ruin their career.

This isn't the same America of 50 or 60 years ago. And the tolerance for scandals is just one of hundreds of noticeable differences.

I seriously miss the 80s myself. That was a good time era almost across the board. All of us 80s kids thought we would make a much better and more inclusive world without throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

But these nuts in both parties want to find enemies where they don't exist whether it's the Republicans hating on immigrants or Democrats hating on "straight cis racist white males." It's whacky world and I'm trying to live in it and still enjoy myself.

Why the hell do we need so many words to refer to people now? I miss simpler days.

I'm hoping these clowns don't screw up one of the easiest wins in world history. You get handed the wealthiest and most technologically advanced nation in the world with one of the most diverse populations and you ruin it because you want to argue over stupid crap? Living in America is like leading in the Super Bowl 100 to 10 against life, with too many coaches trying to find a way to lose the game and create problems bigger than they are. It's really stupid.

[I-5]

You're preaching to the choir, bro. Indictment isn't enough for me, but I'm enough of a realist to know that it's all we're going to get.

I'm not saying that Trump shouldn't be pursued with every possible resource available to prosecutors. I do think it's important for the historical record to get as much crap into the books as possible so that people will be able to look back on this period of time during American history and see everything that the POS did.

I think indictment, even though it doesn't compare to the punishment of prison, it's still a big deal. One, it's never happened before with a US president, so just from that standpoint, it would be historic and make a very important statement. But yeah, in a perfect world, he would do time.

[RiverDog]

This isn't the same America of 50 or 60 years ago. And the tolerance for scandals is just one of hundreds of noticeable differences.

I seriously miss the 80s myself. That was a good time era almost across the board. All of us 80s kids thought we would make a much better and more inclusive world without throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

But these nuts in both parties want to find enemies where they don't exist whether it's the Republicans hating on immigrants or Democrats hating on "straight cis racist white males." It's whacky world and I'm trying to live in it and still enjoy myself.

Why the hell do we need so many words to refer to people now? I miss simpler days.

I'm hoping these clowns don't screw up one of the easiest wins in world history. You get handed the wealthiest and most technologically advanced nation in the world with one of the most diverse populations and you ruin it because you want to argue over stupid crap? Living in America is like leading in the Super Bowl 100 to 10 against life, with too many coaches trying to find a way to lose the game and create problems bigger than they are. It's really stupid.

For you, it's the 80's. For me, it's the 60's and 70's.

Prior to the JFK assassination in 1963 and the Vietnam War that followed in the mid-late 60's, people trusted what their government told them. Had the Covid pandemic struck in 1962 and they had a vaccine available, there would have been 90-95% uptake, and no one would have been peddling conspiracy theories. Your entertainment options consisted of 3 channels of TV and AM radio. There were lots less garbage for a person to filter through. High school football was huge back then. My mom used to prepare dinner like fried chicken, pack it in a picnic basket, then take it to the stadium an hour or so before the game so we could get a good seat and made sure to put in a 6 pack of beer for the old man. Can you imagine bringing a 6 pack into any event nowadays? They'd get 5,000 people to show up for those high school games. It was lots better than watching Ed Sullivan. Yes, life was a lot simpler back then.

But that's from the perspective of a white man like me. If you weren't born to the right parents like I was, life was quite a bit different back then. My mom, who had a heart of gold and was the most racially tolerant person that I know of out of that generation, had legitimate concerns when my brother started dating an Ethiopian back in the early-mid 80's. "What are they (kids) going to call themselves: Black or white? They'll be fighting a two headed monster." And she was exactly right, for that period of time and the conditions she was raised under. But she didn't anticipate that the world would change by the time my nephews grew up, where multi race kids have become one of the norms and not the exception. In that regard, today's times are much preferrable to the times that I grew up in, which includes the 80's.

I'm going off topic here a bit, so please indulge me. I often times tell others about my college buddies and I going to the boat races here in the Tri Cites in the mid 70's. It would be 100+ degrees on the third weekend in July, and we'd bring an ice cooler full of beer, lawn chairs, and set up shop somewhere near the rivershore for a good view of the hydroplanes with maybe 100' or so between us and the river with no one sitting in front of us. On one occasion, someone had brought a bunch of surgical tubing, and we cut it into 5' or so lengths and fill them with water, tying off one end and pinching down the other, forming a reservoir of water like a bladder, putting it under our armpits and apply pressure. We could shoot a 1/2" diameter stream of water 50 feet, so when a hot looking chick in a bikini would walk in front of us, we'd shoot them in the ass or the boobs. They'd get pissed off as all get out, or at least act that way, but 15-30 minutes later, the same girls would come walking past us again. True story. I can't even imagine what would have happen to us under today's standards.

Yeah, those were the good ole days!

[Aseahawkfan]

For you, it's the 80's. For me, it's the 60's and 70's.

Prior to the JFK assassination in 1963 and the Vietnam War that followed in the mid-late 60's, people trusted what their government told them. Had the Covid pandemic struck in 1962 and they had a vaccine available, there would have been 90-95% uptake, and no one would have been peddling conspiracy theories. Your entertainment options consisted of 3 channels of TV and AM radio. There were lots less garbage for a person to filter through. High school football was huge back then. My mom used to prepare dinner like fried chicken, pack it in a picnic basket, then take it to the stadium an hour or so before the game so we could get a good seat and made sure to put in a 6 pack of beer for the old man. Can you imagine bringing a 6 pack into any event nowadays? They'd get 5,000 people to show up for those high school games. It was lots better than watching Ed Sullivan. Yes, life was a lot simpler back then.

But that's from the perspective of a white man like me. If you weren't born to the right parents like I was, life was quite a bit different back then. My mom, who had a heart of gold and was the most racially tolerant person that I know of out of that generation, had legitimate concerns when my brother started dating an Ethiopian back in the early-mid 80's. "What are they (kids) going to call themselves: Black or white? They'll be fighting a two headed monster." And she was exactly right, for that period of time and the conditions she was raised under. But she didn't anticipate that the world would change by the time my nephews grew up, where multi race kids have become one of the norms and not the exception. In that regard, today's times are much preferrable to the times that I grew up in, which includes the 80's.

I'm going off topic here a bit, so please indulge me. I often times tell others about my college buddies and I going to the boat races here in the Tri Cites in the mid 70's. It would be 100+ degrees on the third weekend in July, and we'd bring an ice cooler full of beer, lawn chairs, and set up shop somewhere near the rivershore for a good view of the hydroplanes with maybe 100' or so between us and the river with no one sitting in front of us. On one occasion, someone had brought a bunch of surgical tubing, and we cut it into 5' or so lengths and fill them with water, tying off one end and pinching down the other, forming a reservoir of water like a bladder, putting it under our armpits and apply pressure. We could shoot a 1/2" diameter stream of water 50 feet, so when a hot looking chick in a bikini would walk in front of us, we'd shoot them in the ass or the boobs. They'd get pissed off as all get out, or at least act that way, but 15-30 minutes later, the same girls would come walking past us again. True story. I can't even imagine what would have happen to us under today's standards.

Yeah, those were the good ole days!

Our world experiences differ from just a few generations. It doesn't take long to change or near as long.

80s wasn't particularly racially intolerant, so I didn't experience much of that. We might have been raised as the first post-desegregation generation as I was born in 1971 and came of age in 80s. I was very much raised to believe everyone was equal and no limitations on friends or associations. We grew up watching Michael Jackson, Denzel, Bruce Lee, and well-integrated sports and entertainment and schools didn't teach segregation or anything of the kind. I was from a family where my father was a European mutt who married my mother who was a fourth generation American of Mexican ancestry woman. I was also raised Catholic and attended Catholic school.

I would never dream of treating women in that fashion. Never did in my entire life. Never much hung out with people that did that either. I was always raised to open the doors and treat women very respectfully in the workplace or in social situations. That definitely was a different time if you and your buddies were doing that. That would get your ass kicked when I was growing up. All a girl had to do was go to a group of dudes and tell them some guy was messing with them and there would be a fight happening.

The world never felt like a bad or limiting place in the 80s. It was really common to watch a show like Miami Vice where Rico and Tubbs were partners and friends, a black and white cop, and The Cosby's were the nation's first family. Reagan was president and he carried the office with grace, self-deprecation, and firmness. Star Trek was an extremely popular show in reruns. Eddie Murphy was one of the world's biggest comics. Magic and Larry were the basketball matchup of the week.

At this point it seems a lot of dark stuff was going on underneath the surface of the 80s, but the feel of the 80s was great. A very positive feeling time in America or felt so as a kid.

It feels more like it's taken a few steps back at this point with the constant fighting and identity politics. Maybe the last kick of the oldest generation still alive mixed with some of the social media driven crazy of the younger generations. I grew up during a good period in the middle of that. My friends were always mixed and from everywhere. My parents never cared who I dated. I didn't start learning about the racist and sexist trash until I reached my late teens and into my twenties. We weren't taught that way in the 80s, so it all seems kind of weird, at least not taught that way in Washington State. To us racists and sexists were bad people, you didn't want to be around them.

I guess the old saying of one step forward and two steps back occurs because the 90s became more bleak with these serious drug epidemics and the rise of depressing times. Then the 2000s came around and it seems to have been one weird ride to now: Crazy Donald Trump as president and a thousand different labels for everyone and everything.

The technology is better now across the board, not sure the people are though. 80s seemed like an almost ideal mix of what was good about the older generation in terms of work ethic, manners, and respectable behavior with healthy mix of the new with a more tolerant view of people and willingness to accept positive cultural change. And I miss the massive amount of all kinds of music. In the 80s you could listen to pop radio and hear a rock song with a pop song with an R and B song with a rap song with a country song with a new wave song. You saw the same thing on MTV. Never saw music and entertainment as diverse and interesting as the 80s. Now even the music is very categorized and corporatized.

I'm glad I grew up then. I would have hated segregated America and I can't say I love this weird overly categorized America either.

[tarlhawk]

Politics is often a "mine field" where emotions often betray reasoning. Much political rhetoric relies on flaming the passions associated with emotions. Reasoning would abate the ugly pathos that exists in war but emotions quickly inflame the ability of calmer negotiation to even have a chance. Political battles are a microcosm of open warfare where the quicker you can paint the opponents perception of being "bad for the country" the easier for the media to "run with it". Politics seem 24/7 now vice being a need for concern the 6 months leading up to a major election (presidential/mid term). How can anyone enjoy the finer points of a blessed country and life when social media implores your constant attention to the frustration of many things not in your control yet begging of your full involvement and time? Happiness seems so fleeting at times....its like we are drunk on a perception of power...a need to be heard above a need to listen. Enough soap box for me....