RiverDog wrote:Don't even go there. Truman was being told by his advisors to expect a million US casualties had we taken the only other action that would have resulted in an unconditional surrender, ie a full-scale land invasion of the home islands, and that doesn't include the tens of millions of Japanese that would have been killed. And even had the American people accepted a negotiated peace, something that the country was not prepared to accept, there is no doubt that the Soviets would have been in on the deal, too, as we would have needed their help in conquering the country. We would have ended up with another Germany or Korea, with a North Japan and South Japan.
Six months before we dropped the A-bombs, in one air raid on one night, we killed over 100,000 Japanese plus a million of them left homeless, but it had zero effect on the Japanese government's willingness to surrender. They needed to be shocked. It was the only way to end the war and spare us from what could have been several more years of bloodshed.
Plus had Truman not dropped the bomb and it was later revealed that he had such a weapon that could end the war but refused to use it, he would have been impeached. My parents, uncles and aunts, and many other friends of mine were very much alive during that period of time, and each of them to a person said that Truman had no other choice. I never heard one person from my parent's generation argue against dropping the bomb. To say otherwise is engaging in 20/20 hindsight on an event that neither you nor I were around to experience.
In August of 1945, the world was introduced to the horrors of nuclear war, and motivated to do everything to avoid it, and indeed, we have yet to be engaged in a war on anywhere near the scale of the first two world wars. The world would have been a much different place had Hiroshima not happened.
I'll let you slide on your other arguments as they are a lot more controversial, but this one was the most egregiously false statement that you've made in a long time.
It's hardly a false statement. It was done by Truman signing the order. If the Nazis or Japan had dropped such weapons on America, my goodness would we have painted them as evil and corrupt.
We knew what we were doing. Our moral scales differ. Dropping atomic bombs, a new made weapon, you knew would kill innocent civilians and wasn't targetable is a corrupt act. It is mass murder. So is the use of carpet bombing, poison gas, and all the other weapons for mass killing. Killing a 100,000 Japanese during normal bombing operations is just more of an example of far more corrupt behavior than Trump was ever able to do. I know of the fire bombing of Japan you're talking about prior. Just another on the corrupt and evil scale Trump can't come close to matching.
I'm not arguing about the Japanese government. They were equally corrupt and evil in their actions with little regard for their people. The power groups in Japan and America were at war and all they cared about was winning. That's war. That's how it works while all of us plebes get caught in the middle.
What I'm saying is you want to say Trump is the most corrupt president in history. I'm saying your scale for corruption is strange to me. Trump may have done what other presidents have done or worse in a similar circumstances, but he wasn't in those circumstances. So he didn't get the chance. Most of what Trump did was minor on the corruption or evil scale.
Trump's biggest crime wasn't his actions compared to other presidents which is a tiresome argument, it was letting the people look behind the curtain. I wish I could alter time just to show everyone calling Trump the "most corrupt president" what would have happened if Trump had been smart enough to hold power in D.C. If he had put on the smiling face of a politician while doing the things he did and not argued with the press. I would bet everything I have right now Trump could have done exactly what he was doing and we would have barely heard about it because things like Trump does happen all the time in D.C. Election rigging, making calls to foreign leaders, receiving diplomats and lobbyists from other nations, lying, and the like. Business as usual in D.C. As long as as the American people don't hear about it or don't do anything about it, then it's all fair game.
What is your standard for corrupt and evil behavior? Where is the line drawn?
I know with absolute certainty that if I had been Truman and had to sign the order to drop the nuclear weapons knowing what they were, I would not have done it. Then again I wouldn't even be carpet bombing. Mass murdering innocent people is amoral, corrupt, and evil. And yet we human beings in competition with each other for power have allowed all of this to become normal while coming up with weak justifications for tolerating it. It really comes down to very powerful people in various nations developing weapons to control and take from each other. It's corrupt, amoral, and evil. Yet we still do it and still allow it.
I already know you and
c-bob will just make excuse after excuse as to why "Trump is the worst and most corrupt." But I know that isn't true and is just a BS smoke show as each voter wants to justify their vote and position with some excuses for their viewpoint.
I know why I want Trump out. It has little to do with his level of corruption which I don't consider in the discussion as to lead a nation is to embrace that you will do unethical, amoral, immoral, and evil actions to maintain your nation's power. It is part of the job. To what degree will depend on the circumstances during your time in office and what kind of nation exists at the time or power groups are pulling the strings.
My reasons for wanting Trump out are more as follows:Trump mishandled power. He crapped the bed in the backyard and let his messy stink out. He caused chaos in America which none of us want. His words and actions were directly responsible for the mishandling of a pandemic and causing a riot that led to an attack on our Capitol. He was stupid, vulgar, and is unfit to hold power. However they get rid of him whether Trumping up some charges and sticking them to him or just losing his support I am fine with.
But as far how I view his actions on the magic "evil or corruption" scale, pretty minor compared to many presidents. Not much of a motivator for me. I've read presidents doing worse than Trump. I will always judge mass murder even during war as far worse. I understand war as competition between human power groups, but I never view it as anything other than it is: corrupt, evil, and driven by power mad people willing to build and use weapons that treat humans like lawnmowers treat blades of grass. I don't like it. It's evil and vile. Those that engage in it are much higher on the corruption and evil scale than Trump who is just too stupid, chaotic, and selfish to hold office.
That is how I view it. I have for some time. I have never been bothered by Trump's levels of corruption as they seem pretty standard to me. His problem was not managing power well. Too easily baited into foolish arguments, too chaotic with his use of the bully pulpit, too uncontrolled to run a nation, especially one with America's power and standing in the world.
That's my beef with Trump. Not his corruption level or what not. Trump's a minor, petty guy. When historians look back as his presidency, he'll be small potatoes whether the level of corruption or evil he did or his effect on America long-term.
I'll leave it there as I already this debate is a path to nowhere where we'll go back and forth on the same points.
