Chinese spy satellite

[RiverDog]

From the first sentence in your previous post: Do you think that spying agencies across the world continue to use the same techniques for decades?

That's a rhetorical in the negative statement. Like saying to someone - Do you think I'm stupid?

Alright, I'll accept that.

The fact is they could send over a number of balloons and all have different means of communication/encryption, with some of them with new methods. The military wouldn't know unless they captured the comm data or tried various methods of jamming.

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Yeah, maybe. But that wasn't their main objection to bringing it down over land and doesn't justify letting it fly another 3,000 miles. They specifically said that they were worried about causing harm to citizens on the ground, one of their arguments being that it could have self-destruct explosives on board, and if that were true, my question is what possibility contains the most risk: Taking it down in a very sparsely populated area in Montana or Wyoming or taking a chance that it crash lands on its own in a more heavily populated area to the south and east along its flight path?

That's the type of question that I would hope that Biden asked those that were advising him. I hope he didn't just say "Works for me!", but my gut tells me that he was anxious to accept that recommendation because he didn't want to shoot it down anyway and their recommendation gave him some very convenient political cover.

[c_hawkbob]

Maybe this'll clear up some confusion: https://www.yahoo.com/news/china-sends- ... 50338.html

[RiverDog]

Maybe this'll clear up some confusion: https://www.yahoo.com/news/china-sends- ... 50338.html

Confusion? Lack of information, maybe, but I don't know that anyone is confused.

The article does answer some of the questions I have, such as the balloon recently observed flying over Latin America. But it doesn't answer the one question I've been asking since the incident was first revealed. I still don't buy their given rationale for not bringing it down in Montana or Wyoming, that it would cause undue risk to those on the ground. Was it less risky to let it fly over densely populated areas than it would have been to take it down in a wheat field in Wyoming? How did they come to that conclusion? If they were worried about it having self-destruct explosives, why would they let it fly over populated areas?

If the potential gain of intelligence, in their opinion, justified those risks, then I'd buy it. But that's not what they're saying is the primary reason for allowing it to fly some 3,000 miles before taking it down.

[c_hawkbob]

Dude, you literally called it baffling.

[RiverDog]

Dude, you literally called it baffling.

Alright, I'll give you that one. It has more to do with my perception of the term than your intended use, so you have my apology. For me, "confusion" conjures up images of a clueless moron that doesn't know up from down, like the Keystone Cops.

[c_hawkbob]

Well I for one haven't found this to be all that confusing or baffling or anything of the sort. Surprising maybe that it got as far as Montana before anyone started making a big deal of it (even though there are reports that NORAD said they had this one before it made the continental US but admitted they did not catch the others during the previous administration), but not how it was handled subsequently. I totally trust our spy plane technology to make it worthless to the Chinese once we were onto it and evidently the intel we got from it helped uncover the whole Chinese spy balloon global operation. Whether it was for the safety of the people on the ground or want of that data collection that made them wait till it was over the Atlantic before shooting it down makes no difference to me, whatever the motivation or explanation (not necessarily the same thing) I think it was handled as well as it could have been.

[Aseahawkfan]

Now we're shooting down every UFO we find now. I'm picturing a SNL skit of the United States shooting down random objects including children's balloons, paragliders, satellites, birds, parachuters, alien ships. and any other random object that can be in the sky.

[RiverDog]

Now we're shooting down every UFO we find now. I'm picturing a SNL skit of the United States shooting down random objects including children's balloons, paragliders, satellites, birds, parachuters, alien ships. and any other random object that can be in the sky.

Yeah, kinda defeats that logic about letting it fly across the entire continent before bringing it down, doesn't it?

[c_hawkbob]

Now we're shooting down every UFO we find now. I'm picturing a SNL skit of the United States shooting down random objects including children's balloons, paragliders, satellites, birds, parachuters, alien ships. and any other random object that can be in the sky.

Yeah, kinda defeats that logic about letting it fly across the entire continent before bringing it down, doesn't it?

Not all, these are a lot smaller and flying 20,000 feet lower altitude, which makes them a potential danger to air traffic. You're big on calling comparisons 'apples to oranges' base on a lot less differentiation.

[Aseahawkfan]

A children's party...a huge Shrek balloon...child unties it from its moors and it floats in the skies and across the United States slowly.

U.S. Solider at radar base detects it moving along and screams, "CHINESE SPY BALLOON!!!"

Montage...Air Craft Carrier launching F-15s...Stealth Bombers mobilizing...anti-aircraft missiles launching...U.S. soldiers positioning artillery mobilizing for attack.

Balloon hit and explodes.

Biden at the podium, "We shot down what we believe was another Chinese Spy Balloon...."

Shrek's balloon face lying on the ground with U.S. military intelligence investigators surveying the remains.

[RiverDog]

Yeah, kinda defeats that logic about letting it fly across the entire continent before bringing it down, doesn't it?

Not all, these are a lot smaller and flying 20,000 feet lower altitude, which makes them a potential danger to air traffic. You're big on calling comparisons 'apples to oranges' base on a lot less differentiation.

Yeah, maybe. But even the Biden Administration didn't characterize it as a major hazard, calling it a "reasonable threat" and using words like "out of an abundance of caution" to describe their actions. If I'm a pilot, I'd be more worried about flying into a flock of geese than I would something that big. That's not much of a justification for mounting an international military operation and firing off a half million-dollar missile.

IMO they were more worried about handling another political hot potato than they were aviation safety.

[c_hawkbob]

These last two were cylinders the size of a small car, smaller than a flock of geese. The big one was 200' tall and carried an "airliner sized" payload.

[RiverDog]

These last two were cylinders the size of a small car, smaller than a flock of geese. The big one was 200' tall and carried an "airliner sized" payload.

I'm no airline pilot, but a dispersed flock of geese might not be as observable to the naked eye as a singular object the size of a car. I'm also not sure what the radar signature of a flock of geese is, whether it's more detectable than a solid, metal object like a car. My guess is that radar would pick up the balloon before it would pick up geese, but perhaps you could enlighten me if my assumption is wrong.

Nevertheless, the balloon was obviously large enough to be picked up on radar and based on the verbiage coming out of the Biden Administration, it was not a major threat to aviation safety. IMO it's not a justification on its own to mount such an extensive operation to take it out. They were still smarting after the last incident and not about to run the same gauntlet within a week.

[NorthHawk]

They have to shoot it down if they want to find out what it is and what it's used for.
For all we know it's a communications relay for the other larger balloons floating around the Americas that would have some type of over the horizon ability in the event of war
and most of the satellites were knocked off line. Basically a less effective but still valuable backup plan should the worst happen.
On the other hand, they could be just a benign weather balloons. The military won't know until the 2 objects are examined.

[RiverDog]

They have to shoot it down if they want to find out what it is and what it's used for.
For all we know it's a communications relay for the other larger balloons floating around the Americas that would have some type of over the horizon ability in the event of war
and most of the satellites were knocked off line. Basically a less effective but still valuable backup plan should the worst happen.
On the other hand, they could be just a benign weather balloons. The military won't know until the 2 objects are examined.

I agree 100%, but that wasn't the reason that we were given. According to Cbob, they were taken down because they represented a navigational hazard.

They botched the decision to let the earlier balloon fly across the entire continent before they took it down, and now they're using a phony excuse for taking this one down immediately so they aren't put in the position of having to admit to their mistake on the first one. It's odd, because this one wasn't confirmed to be a spy balloon as the other one was. Heck, they weren't even positive that it was unmanned.

I agree completely with Biden and Trudeau and applaud their prompt action on this latest object and could even be talked into accepting their decision on the first balloon. I just wish they'd be a little more consistent with their explanations.

[NorthHawk]

I think politically they had to act quicker than the first one, but I’m looking at it from an intelligence gathering
point of view and the stated reasons seemed to be an excuse to placate the public.

[Hawktawk]

It’s all extremely alarming . There’s a reason the doomsday clock is closer to
Midnight then ever before . I want to see us live in relative peace for many generations but Pearl Harbor and 9-11 were real things and this is potentially so much worse .

[RiverDog]

I think politically they had to act quicker than the first one, but I’m looking at it from an intelligence gathering
point of view and the stated reasons seemed to be an excuse to placate the public.

Exactly! That's been my point all along.

And they might have a good reason not to be completely forthcoming with the public about it, like President Eisenhower's lying to the public about the U2 incident back in the 50's. I've thought about that analogy because of the striking similarities between the US's cover story in the U2 incident, that the plane was part of a weather research program that went astray, and the Chinese claim about the purpose of their balloons.

In any event, I didn't buy the excuse for letting the first balloon fly across the entire continent before taking it down and I'm not buying the reasoning for immediately shooting down this last balloon.

[NorthHawk]

With the first one, there is a lot of info to be gathered by capturing the data communications and that can take a long time
depending upon the randomness of the bursts of data. Like the space program and their devices exploring and sending back data
in bursts and not continuously.

[RiverDog]

And now, a 4th object was shot down by the military, this time over Lake Huron:

The U.S. military shot down an unidentified object over Lake Huron Sunday, a congressional source briefed on the matter and two U.S. officials told NBC News — the fourth flying object in less than two weeks to be downed over North American airspace.

The officials all said there are no indications of any collateral damage and that the object went down in the lake and officials expect to recover it.

The FAA briefly closed some airspace over Lake Michigan on Sunday to support Department of Defense activities, the agency said in a statement. The airspace has since been reopened.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/nation ... -rcna70289

I wouldn't want to take a sightseeing trip in a hot air balloon about now.

[c_hawkbob]

Perhaps we're taking down this rash of smaller, simpler balloons due to the intel we gleaned from the big one.

[NorthHawk]

Perhaps we're taking down this rash of smaller, simpler balloons due to the intel we gleaned from the big one.

That’s a valid option or reason with the little information we have. It’s beginning to look a bit like a network- if in fact
they are all from China. China has announced they shot dow a balloon off their coast. Most probably just a distraction
but if not…

[mykc14]

Alien invasion??

[Aseahawkfan]

Alien invasion??

mykc get's it. That's where this is going: absurdity.

Soon we'll see Riverdog posting videos of Chinese Spy balloons from his backyard.

[RiverDog]

Alien invasion??

mykc get's it. That's where this is going: absurdity.

Soon we'll see Riverdog posting videos of Chinese Spy balloons from his backyard.

Hehe. I have a neighbor that would have no problem subscribing to that theory.

Around the time of the shootdown over the Yukon, they closed the airspace over Montana for a period of time due to a 'radar anomaly'.

These 'objects' seem to vary in size and the altitude they fly at. Very strange.

[Hawktawk]

The area over lake Huron was designated DOD airspace for a bit and yes the object shot down over Canada affected the radar over montana prior to that. Very weird.
This looks like a test of our response to incursions by China and by proxy their axis partner Russia or simply a naked attempt to get militaries' intelligence damn the repercussions.
Nobody wants to discuss it but why gather intelligence aimlessly? Keep your head on a swivel. I hope our leaders are doing so but I think they are idiots.

Or we are shooting down UFOs killing aliens.

[c_hawkbob]

For you conspiracy theorists:

"U.S. citizens residing or travelling in Russia should depart immediately," the U.S. embassy in Moscow said. "Exercise increased caution due to the risk of wrongful detentions."

"Do not travel to Russia"

https://www.yahoo.com/news/united-state ... 57247.html

[RiverDog]

For you conspiracy theorists:

"U.S. citizens residing or travelling in Russia should depart immediately," the U.S. embassy in Moscow said. "Exercise increased caution due to the risk of wrongful detentions."

"Do not travel to Russia"

https://www.yahoo.com/news/united-state ... 57247.html

I guess I'd better make a run to Costco and stock up on toilet paper.

And to add more fodder for conspiracy theorists, apparently the Chinese have been firing green laser beams over Hawaii from one of their satellites:

Astronomers have revealed that a Chinese satellite fired green laser beams over the US state of Hawaii – at a time when tensions are boiling over between Beijing and Washignton after several foreign objects including a Chinese spy balloon were shot down over the US in recent days.

Scientists at the National Astronomical Observatory of Japan (NAOJ) captured the mystery beams of light on video through its Subaru-Asahi Star Camera on Mauna Kea back on 28 January.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/ch ... 5b965b122c

[Aseahawkfan]

If you don't know to stay out of Russia as a U.S. Citizen right now, you are a level of stupid I can't even fathom.

[RiverDog]

If you don't know to stay out of Russia as a U.S. Citizen right now, you are a level of stupid I can't even fathom.

Yeah, no kidding.

About 5 years ago, my former employer had opened a processing facility in Russia, and they were one of the first American companies to shut it down and bring all their non Russian employees home for exactly that reason: They felt that at some point, they might be put in jeopardy.

They also have a plant in China and have plans of building another one. So far, I haven't heard any concerns about those facilities.

[RiverDog]

It turns out that there was sensitive military information that the Chinese collected with their spy balloon by virtue of the Biden Administration's refusal to shoot it down until it had trans navigated the entire continent:

A Chinese balloon that flew across the United States was able to gather intelligence from several U.S. military sites and transmit it back to Beijing in real time, despite the Biden administration's efforts to prevent it from doing so, NBC News reported on Monday.

The high-altitude balloon, controlled by Beijing, was able to make multiple passes over some of the sites before it was shot down on Feb. 4, at times flying in a figure-eight formation, NBC said, citing two current senior U.S. officials and one former senior administration official.

The three officials said it could transmit the information it collected back to Beijing in real time, NBC reported.

"The intelligence China collected was mostly from electronic signals, which can be picked up from weapons systems or include communications from base personnel, rather than images," NBC cited the officials as saying.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/chine ... r-AA19qmt0

[mykc14]

It turns out that there was sensitive military information that the Chinese collected with their spy balloon by virtue of the Biden Administration's refusal to shoot it down until it had trans navigated the entire continent:

A Chinese balloon that flew across the United States was able to gather intelligence from several U.S. military sites and transmit it back to Beijing in real time, despite the Biden administration's efforts to prevent it from doing so, NBC News reported on Monday.

The high-altitude balloon, controlled by Beijing, was able to make multiple passes over some of the sites before it was shot down on Feb. 4, at times flying in a figure-eight formation, NBC said, citing two current senior U.S. officials and one former senior administration official.

The three officials said it could transmit the information it collected back to Beijing in real time, NBC reported.

"The intelligence China collected was mostly from electronic signals, which can be picked up from weapons systems or include communications from base personnel, rather than images," NBC cited the officials as saying.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/chine ... r-AA19qmt0

This shouldn't be shocking to anybody. Still doesn't make sense that we allowed this thing to go all the way across our country without doing anything about it.

[RiverDog]

It turns out that there was sensitive military information that the Chinese collected with their spy balloon by virtue of the Biden Administration's refusal to shoot it down until it had trans navigated the entire continent:

A Chinese balloon that flew across the United States was able to gather intelligence from several U.S. military sites and transmit it back to Beijing in real time, despite the Biden administration's efforts to prevent it from doing so, NBC News reported on Monday.

The high-altitude balloon, controlled by Beijing, was able to make multiple passes over some of the sites before it was shot down on Feb. 4, at times flying in a figure-eight formation, NBC said, citing two current senior U.S. officials and one former senior administration official.

The three officials said it could transmit the information it collected back to Beijing in real time, NBC reported.

"The intelligence China collected was mostly from electronic signals, which can be picked up from weapons systems or include communications from base personnel, rather than images," NBC cited the officials as saying.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/chine ... r-AA19qmt0

This shouldn't be shocking to anybody. Still doesn't make sense that we allowed this thing to go all the way across our country without doing anything about it.

It certainly isn't a shock to me. How much do you want to bet that if another spy balloon crosses into American/Canadian territory, that Biden doesn't order it to be taken down immediately?

[NorthHawk]

It certainly isn't a shock to me. How much do you want to bet that if another spy balloon crosses into American/Canadian territory, that Biden doesn't order it to be taken down immediately?

It already happened.