The 2024 Election

[RiverDog]

This forum seems to be dying as the only recent comments have been made in the obit thread.

These two choices that we seem to being given are by far the worst two options we've ever had for POTUS. Donald Trump, twice impeached during his presidency, has been indicted in 4 separate criminal cases. Although I doubt that he'll ever be convicted, not because the charges aren't true but simply because it's virtually impossible to find 12 jurists that will convict him, he might land in jail due to his own big mouth, intimidating witnesses. And Republicans don't care. Trump's lead over his nearest competitor, the totally inept Ron DeSantis, has only increased.

The Democratic alternative isn't much better. Joe Biden is clearly not physically or mentally capable of being POTUS. He has held the fewest press conferences than any president in the past 100 years, instead preferring to hide behind his aides and let them do the dirty work. As much flak as Trump took for showing a certain insensitivity to victims of natural disasters, when Sleepy Joe was asked about the Maui wildfires, the deadliest wildfires in decades, what was his response? "No comment." Incredible.

And what are the Dems giving us as an alternative to Biden? Robert Kennedy Jr, a true anti vaxxer moonbat. Jeezus.

I would like to see Gov. Chris Christie get some traction as I feel he's the best candidate out there and one that is meeting Trump head on instead of playing duck-and-cover like DeSantis. But Christie has one thing going against him: His obesity. It means absolutely nothing as far as being able to do the job, but there are a lot of voters out there who are either attracted or turned off by physical appearances. Heck, even Abraham Lincoln recognized that reality, growing a beard as he felt it would make him look better.

Especially since I live in one of the bluest states in the country, meaning that my vote doesn't matter, I'll be looking for a 3rd party or independent candidate like I did in 2016, the year where we were given the 2nd worst choices. The parties produced better candidates out of smoke-filled rooms than they have with this primary system.

Oh, well....

[NorthHawk]

From the outside, Christie seems to be one of the few that have their head in reality. Will Hurd as well, and probably a couple of others.
People may dislike their politics, but at least they aren't there to wreak havoc on the systems in place or go after groups so they can appease their base.

I don't see why people have a problem with Biden. Sure, he's old, but he's done a lot of good so far for the US both domestically and with international relations.
I think he's one of those Presidents that will be looked back at better than he's currently perceived and he's the far better candidate than any of the current Republican offerings.

Regarding Trump, it's interesting to note that there is some question as to whether he's constitutionally permitted to become President again. According to 2 law Professors from the right wing Federalist Society (where many of the right wing SC Judges have come from) he might not be qualified.

https://www.latimes.com/opinion/story/2 ... surrection

[MackStrongIsMyHero]

No offense to the older timers on the board, but I'd like to avoid candidates 70+ years of age. I watch Joe Biden and I see what I've seen from numerous older relatives going down. I truly feel for him; this is not what his golden years should be. Pack it in dude and enjoy your remaining time on this Earth away from the political circus.

Trump's no better in that regard. Too old to change who he is and how he does things.

We need some younger moderates.

The Democrat field doesn't look very promising. I could potentially get behind Nikki Haley or Will Hurd.

[RiverDog]

From the outside, Christie seems to be one of the few that have their head in reality. Will Hurd as well, and probably a couple of others.
People may dislike their politics, but at least they aren't there to wreak havoc on the systems in place or go after groups so they can appease their base.

I don't see why people have a problem with Biden. Sure, he's old, but he's done a lot of good so far for the US both domestically and with international relations.
I think he's one of those Presidents that will be looked back at better than he's currently perceived and he's the far better candidate than any of the current Republican offerings.

Regarding Trump, it's interesting to note that there is some question as to whether he's constitutionally permitted to become President again. According to 2 law Professors from the right wing Federalist Society (where many of the right wing SC Judges have come from) he might not be qualified.

https://www.latimes.com/opinion/story/2 ... surrection

I'm not sure how much good Biden has done domestically. All he's done is sign spending legislation during a time which we should be restricting government spending to reel in inflation. One of my biggest beefs with him is his college loan forgiveness plan, a wholly unfair proposition that does nothing to improve access to or reduce the expense of attending college.

But his age is the biggest concern, the most recent example being his "no comment" about the Maui wildfires. He can't even think clearly enough to say something like "it's terrible" or "my heart goes out to the victims." He can't form simple sentences or get through a speech without making some huge gaffe. It's for this reason that he avoids news conferences like the plague. He and his handlers know that he'll get embarrassed by questions that they can't prepare him for. The man's mental decline is profound and obvious. I'm not alone in my doubts about his cognitive abilities. We need a Constitutional amendment setting a maximum age, perhaps 75, of which a POTUS can be elected. We already have a minimum age, 35, so I see no reason why we can't establish a maximum age.

Only in comparison to Trump has he done a reasonable job.

[RiverDog]

No offense to the older timers on the board, but I'd like to avoid candidates 70+ years of age. I watch Joe Biden and I see what I've seen from numerous older relatives going down. I truly feel for him; this is not what his golden years should be. Pack it in dude and enjoy your remaining time on this Earth away from the political circus.

Trump's no better in that regard. Too old to change who he is and how he does things.

We need some younger moderates.

The Democrat field doesn't look very promising. I could potentially get behind Nikki Haley or Will Hurd.

No offense taken. You're preaching to the choir. I had to watch my mother, a very sharp person in her younger days, start to lose her mental faculties when she hit her 80's, and I'm watching it happen to my best friend who is 84.

Next to Christie, I like Haley, Hurd, and Rick Scott, but I don't see any of them coming within spitting distance of Trump. The Republican party is still mentally deranged. They'll have to lose another presidential election before they finally rid themselves of Trump.

[NorthHawk]

With the exception of Christie and from what I've seen of Hurd, the rest of the Republican Party is as crooked as the day is long.
They will do anything required to appease the base that's been created by Trump and will go along with their demands just to keep power including trampling over the Constitution if it suits their needs.
That party needs a real good cleaning out if Democracy is to survive and the only way to do that is to vote Democrat at every level because this rot is rooted at the lowest political level. It's to the point that there is talk in Tennessee that they might ban a book about Seahorses because they can reproduce without both a male and female. That's the mentality of the base of that party and it's setting the tone for higher political levels.
Haley and Scott have gone along with Trump and if given the reins will do what Trump couldn't in tearing down the current system but will do if he gets back into power.

[RiverDog]

With the exception of Christie and from what I've seen of Hurd, the rest of the Republican Party is as crooked as the day is long.
They will do anything required to appease the base that's been created by Trump and will go along with their demands just to keep power including trampling over the Constitution if it suits their needs.
That party needs a real good cleaning out if Democracy is to survive and the only way to do that is to vote Democrat at every level because this rot is rooted at the lowest political level. It's to the point that there is talk in Tennessee that they might ban a book about Seahorses because they can reproduce without both a male and female. That's the mentality of the base of that party and it's setting the tone for higher political levels.
Haley and Scott have gone along with Trump and if given the reins will do what Trump couldn't in tearing down the current system but will do if he gets back into power.

Nikki Haley has NOT gone along with Donald Trump. She has been very critical of him. Here's what she said about Trump 2.5 years ago shortly after he left office:

“We need to acknowledge he let us down,” she told Politico magazine in an interview published Friday. “He went down a path he shouldn’t have, and we shouldn’t have followed him, and we shouldn’t have listened to him. And we can’t let that ever happen again.”

She's also broken with Trump over the war in Ukraine.

[curmudgeon]

None of this matters. Meet the new boss, same as the old boss…….

[Aseahawkfan]

I'm going to wait and see who wins out as the field is narrowed down.

I'm looking to vote for a younger candidate as well. I ignore Grandpa Biden. I'm sorry, but he is going senile. I won't vote for Crazy Uncle Trump. He brings too much crazy to the White House.

Christie seems good. I'd still like to see DeSantis if he can get traction in the primaries, but he's spending too much time battling with Disney. Maybe Nikki Haley.

I don't know if the Dems are going to let someone challenge Biden. The Dem Party has him under control as a figurehead. So him winning again keeps the status quo and let's them do what their power players behind the scenes want to do.

I imagine we'll get more clarity soon. I'll probably loosely watch the debate tonight.

[RiverDog]

I'm going to wait and see who wins out as the field is narrowed down.

I'm looking to vote for a younger candidate as well. I ignore Grandpa Biden. I'm sorry, but he is going senile. I won't vote for Crazy Uncle Trump. He brings too much crazy to the White House.

Christie seems good. I'd still like to see DeSantis if he can get traction in the primaries, but he's spending too much time battling with Disney. Maybe Nikki Haley.

I don't know if the Dems are going to let someone challenge Biden. The Dem Party has him under control as a figurehead. So him winning again keeps the status quo and let's them do what their power players behind the scenes want to do.

I imagine we'll get more clarity soon. I'll probably loosely watch the debate tonight.

I'm in agreement with you except for your take on DeSantis. Christie and Haley are both far superior candidates, perhaps even Tim Scott. DeSantis's campaign is falling on its face.

It will be interesting to see if they let Biden enter into the debates. They've kept him behind the curtains for almost his entire presidency, and for good reason. He can't think on his feet. I was astounded when I found out that he's held fewer press conferences than any president in the past 100 years. That pretty much says it all.

[Aseahawkfan]

DeSantis is not handling the big stage well. Some of his moves in Florida are coming back to haunt him. He can still recover. It's early. Unless he does real well at these debates and gets this turned about, he might not have the necessary appeal. People like a little crazy and I can stand a little crazy, but I can't stand a lot of crazy like Trump or a lot of feeble like Biden.

Biden hasn't done a terrible job because the Democratic Party knows how to govern even with all the stupid from their media arm and their far left wing, but it's hard to watch a president you know shouldn't be there for different reasons than Trump shouldn't have been there.

[RiverDog]

DeSantis is not handling the big stage well. Some of his moves in Florida are coming back to haunt him. He can still recover. It's early. Unless he does real well at these debates and gets this turned about, he might not have the necessary appeal. People like a little crazy and I can stand a little crazy, but I can't stand a lot of crazy like Trump or a lot of feeble like Biden.

Biden hasn't done a terrible job because the Democratic Party knows how to govern even with all the stupid from their media arm and their far left wing, but it's hard to watch a president you know shouldn't be there for different reasons than Trump shouldn't have been there.

I have a litmus test in order for me to support any R candidate. In the debate, they asked the question if Donald Trump was convicted of a felony in a court of law, raise your hand if you would still support him, and the only two that didn't raise their hand were Pence and Christie. DeSantis is still too connected to Trump and/or Trumpism for me to support.

One of the problems with Christie is his obesity. Going all the way back to Abraham Lincoln, who grew a beard because he was told it would make him more attractive, candidates recognized the fact that looks count. Crippled from the waist down, FDR wouldn't let the press photograph him in a wheelchair and would literally go through great pains to look like he was walking. JFK would spend hours with a make-up artist. The Dems once built a long-inclined ramp for 5'8" Michael Dukakis to walk up to a debate podium stride for stride next to 6'2" George HW Bush. In Christie's case, there's not a lot that can be done to gloss over that image. I can just imagine the jokes that are sure to come.

[c_hawkbob]

I have a litmus test in order for me to support any R candidate. In the debate, they asked the question if Donald Trump was convicted of a felony in a court of law, raise your hand if you would still support him, and the only two that didn't raise their hand were Pence and Christie.

And that narrowed it down to Christie as the only R candidate I could vote for. I was really disappointed in Haley for that response and her explanation when pressed: "Oh it'll never get to that" doesn't wash either. Christie being fat is nothing at all to me, he ain't that much fatter than Trump.

[RiverDog]

I have a litmus test in order for me to support any R candidate. In the debate, they asked the question if Donald Trump was convicted of a felony in a court of law, raise your hand if you would still support him, and the only two that didn't raise their hand were Pence and Christie.

And that narrowed it down to Christie as the only R candidate I could vote for. I was really disappointed in Haley for that response and her explanation when pressed: "Oh it'll never get to that" doesn't wash either. Christie being fat is nothing at all to me, he ain't that much fatter than Trump.

Wow, we'll have to mark it down on the calendar. You and I are in complete agreement on a subject involving politics.

I was disappointed in Haley's response, too. I didn't think she was as addicted to Trumpism as the other candidates, but I was wrong. She needs to put more distance between her and Trump in order for me to support her.

Christie's being fat means nothing to me, either. I'm not in a great position to be critical of anyone's weight and can sympathize with a person that has had a weight control problem. But it's undeniable that it makes a difference to a number of people and that it makes him less electable. And yea, Trump might not be that much less fat, but he doesn't look as fat as Christie does.

[Aseahawkfan]

I have a litmus test in order for me to support any R candidate. In the debate, they asked the question if Donald Trump was convicted of a felony in a court of law, raise your hand if you would still support him, and the only two that didn't raise their hand were Pence and Christie. DeSantis is still too connected to Trump and/or Trumpism for me to support.

One of the problems with Christie is his obesity. Going all the way back to Abraham Lincoln, who grew a beard because he was told it would make him more attractive, candidates recognized the fact that looks count. Crippled from the waist down, FDR wouldn't let the press photograph him in a wheelchair and would literally go through great pains to look like he was walking. JFK would spend hours with a make-up artist. The Dems once built a long-inclined ramp for 5'8" Michael Dukakis to walk up to a debate podium stride for stride next to 6'2" George HW Bush. In Christie's case, there's not a lot that can be done to gloss over that image. I can just imagine the jokes that are sure to come.

Right now Trump is polling too high to state outright you won't have anything to do with him. Pretty much going to kill your chances of election if you do that. Christie will never win if he outright states he'll screw Trump. So I don't care about that part. Those are baiting questions anyway. Asked to give Trump ammunition to attack someone and generate ratings.

Only by winning part of Trump's base and reaching office can you start to wash the Trump stink out of office.

This is a political game to me, not some moral stance. The goal is wash Trump out of office. If they can manage to get a Republican candidate through I can vote for that isn't Trump that has a real chance of winning, I don't care much at this point.

My only goals this pathetic election is to see Trump beat and see a younger candidate in office. Then in four years of hopefully Trump finally being gone, then I can worry about other concerns.

[c_hawkbob]

Wow, we'll have to mark it down on the calendar. You and I are in complete agreement on a subject involving politics.

Roger that!

[RiverDog]

Right now Trump is polling too high to state outright you won't have anything to do with him. Pretty much going to kill your chances of election if you do that. Christie will never win if he outright states he'll screw Trump. So I don't care about that part. Those are baiting questions anyway. Asked to give Trump ammunition to attack someone and generate ratings.

Only by winning part of Trump's base and reaching office can you start to wash the Trump stink out of office.

This is a political game to me, not some moral stance. The goal is wash Trump out of office. If they can manage to get a Republican candidate through I can vote for that isn't Trump that has a real chance of winning, I don't care much at this point.

My only goals this pathetic election is to see Trump beat and see a younger candidate in office. Then in four years of hopefully Trump finally being gone, then I can worry about other concerns.

The reality is that Trump will with the nomination in a landslide. The Republican base is thick with moonbats that are still drunk on Trumpism. So it doesn't really matter what DeSantis, Christie, or any of the other R says about Trump. The other reality is that the only Dem that has a chance of beating Trump is Biden.

That's why I don't like this primary system the parties use for selecting their nominees. Biden could beat Trump in 2024 and the Republicans would still nominate him in 2028. If they chose their candidate in a smoke-filled room, Trump would never have won the nomination back in 2016. There are times that democracy sucks. The founding fathers got it right: The common man is too stupid to be trusted with something as important as a vote.

[Aseahawkfan]

The reality is that Trump will with the nomination in a landslide. The Republican base is thick with moonbats that are still drunk on Trumpism. So it doesn't really matter what DeSantis, Christie, or any of the other R says about Trump. The other reality is that the only Dem that has a chance of beating Trump is Biden.

That's why I don't like this primary system the parties use for selecting their nominees. Biden could beat Trump in 2024 and the Republicans would still nominate him in 2028. If they chose their candidate in a smoke-filled room, Trump would never have won the nomination back in 2016. There are times that democracy sucks. The founding fathers got it right: The common man is too stupid to be trusted with something as important as a vote.

We'll see. I think Trump is unelectable. I think power players in the Republican Party know this. I think the media is seeding for Trump because the Democrats know they can beat his crazy ass. A younger Republican backed by the money in the Republican Party is a much bigger threat to Democratic power than Trump.

We'll see if if plays out as I see it.

Trump is a loser in the next election. If he doesn't win both the House and the Senate, he will get nothing done during a second term but fending off criminal charges and impeachment. If the Dems take both the Senate and the House, then Trump is dead man walking before he sets foot in The White House. His stupid, crazy ass won't be able to avoid impeachment and removal.

I think the Republican power players know this to be the case and will move to torpedo him.

That is why I'm patiently waiting to see how this plays out. I know certain power Republicans like the remaining Koch brother, Peter Thiel, and other donors behind the scenes are tired of Trump. As we saw with Bernie Sanders, it isn't enough to have a rabid following of Bernie Bros. You have to have the backing of the power in a party to make things work or you lose your protection and your campaign funding.

So we'll see how the real Republican Power Players handle this. Polls dont' matter to them. What matters to them is if things will get done as they want them done. A president spending all his time fighting off impeachment and lawsuits is a waste of their money and time.

[RiverDog]

The reality is that Trump will with the nomination in a landslide. The Republican base is thick with moonbats that are still drunk on Trumpism. So it doesn't really matter what DeSantis, Christie, or any of the other R says about Trump. The other reality is that the only Dem that has a chance of beating Trump is Biden.

That's why I don't like this primary system the parties use for selecting their nominees. Biden could beat Trump in 2024 and the Republicans would still nominate him in 2028. If they chose their candidate in a smoke-filled room, Trump would never have won the nomination back in 2016. There are times that democracy sucks. The founding fathers got it right: The common man is too stupid to be trusted with something as important as a vote.

We'll see. I think Trump is unelectable. I think power players in the Republican Party know this. I think the media is seeding for Trump because the Democrats know they can beat his crazy ass. A younger Republican backed by the money in the Republican Party is a much bigger threat to Democratic power than Trump.

We'll see if if plays out as I see it.

Trump is a loser in the next election. If he doesn't win both the House and the Senate, he will get nothing done during a second term but fending off criminal charges and impeachment. If the Dems take both the Senate and the House, then Trump is dead man walking before he sets foot in The White House. His stupid, crazy ass won't be able to avoid impeachment and removal.

I think the Republican power players know this to be the case and will move to torpedo him.

That is why I'm patiently waiting to see how this plays out. I know certain power Republicans like the remaining Koch brother, Peter Thiel, and other donors behind the scenes are tired of Trump. As we saw with Bernie Sanders, it isn't enough to have a rabid following of Bernie Bros. You have to have the backing of the power in a party to make things work or you lose your protection and your campaign funding.

So we'll see how the real Republican Power Players handle this. Polls dont' matter to them. What matters to them is if things will get done as they want them done. A president spending all his time fighting off impeachment and lawsuits is a waste of their money and time.

I agree that Trump is unelectable in the general election, so long as the Dems re-nominate Biden. But that's not what I'm talking about. I'm saying that he's going to get the Republican nomination.

The party leaders can't and won't torpedo him. They are committed to the primary process where Trump is unbeatable. If the party leaders had that much influence, there'd be more candidates come out against him as they'd want to win over the bosses rather than win the electorate.

[I-5]

I’ve said this before and I think a few others have: Trump will lose by a bigger margin in 2024 than he lost by in 2020 if he becomes the Republican nominee. And I think he will become the nominee. Either way, we’ll have the oldest ever POTUS.

[Aseahawkfan]

I agree that Trump is unelectable in the general election, so long as the Dems re-nominate Biden. But that's not what I'm talking about. I'm saying that he's going to get the Republican nomination.

The party leaders can't and won't torpedo him. They are committed to the primary process where Trump is unbeatable. If the party leaders had that much influence, there'd be more candidates come out against him as they'd want to win over the bosses rather than win the electorate.

I don't agree with you. But only time will determine that.

Trump had the full backing of the Republican money machine in 2016. He had it in 2020. Then he crapped the bed and a lot of folks that backed him before have left him. The remaining Koch brother. Peter Thiel. Dick Cheney. A lot of others whose names you don't hear in the mainstream news. They have power and can crush someone if necessary.

Money runs both parties. Electability is important to them as they can't get anything with pathetic, unelectable candidates.

So as far some guarantee he gets the nomination, we'll see early next year.

[RiverDog]

I don't agree with you. But only time will determine that.

Trump had the full backing of the Republican money machine in 2016. He had it in 2020. Then he crapped the bed and a lot of folks that backed him before have left him. The remaining Koch brother. Peter Thiel. Dick Cheney. A lot of others whose names you don't hear in the mainstream news. They have power and can crush someone if necessary.

Money runs both parties. Electability is important to them as they can't get anything with pathetic, unelectable candidates.

So as far some guarantee he gets the nomination, we'll see early next year.

I think you're assigning way too much weight to the money aspect of this campaign. In 2016, Hillary Clinton way outspent Trump by over 2:1 yet Trump beat her. That same Trump base that couldn't be bought out in 2016 is alive and well in 2024. Trump doesn't have to spend money. He has been getting his mug shown on national TV every day for the past 2 years.

At this point in the contest for the Republican nomination, all these other candidates are doing is splitting the anti-Trump votes. If they are to be successful and beat Trump, they need to coalesce and get behind one candidate. Since DeSantis is the most popular of the non-Trump candidates, it would make sense for them to get behind him. But all DeSantis is going to do is try to out Trump Trump. They need someone that is willing to give voters an honest choice instead of one between Trump or Trump Jr.

I will say that after reading some of what Nikki Haley said during the debate, I've changed my mind about her to some degree. I still favor Christie, but I like a lot of what Haley said particularly as it applies to the abortion issue, her support for Ukraine, and although she didn't go as far as Christie has in disowning Trump, she did put some daylight between him and her. She's also a former accountant, meaning she would be less likely to "make it rain".

[I-5]

Trump is going to win the republican nomination no doubt about it. And that will mean another term for Brandon. Incidentally, it’s brilliant how his team turned the Go Brandon insult into the most badass meme ever. Impressive.

[Aseahawkfan]

I think you're assigning way too much weight to the money aspect of this campaign. In 2016, Hillary Clinton way outspent Trump by over 2:1 yet Trump beat her. That same Trump base that couldn't be bought out in 2016 is alive and well in 2024. Trump doesn't have to spend money. He has been getting his mug shown on national TV every day for the past 2 years.

At this point in the contest for the Republican nomination, all these other candidates are doing is splitting the anti-Trump votes. If they are to be successful and beat Trump, they need to coalesce and get behind one candidate. Since DeSantis is the most popular of the non-Trump candidates, it would make sense for them to get behind him. But all DeSantis is going to do is try to out Trump Trump. They need someone that is willing to give voters an honest choice instead of one between Trump or Trump Jr.

I will say that after reading some of what Nikki Haley said during the debate, I've changed my mind about her to some degree. I still favor Christie, but I like a lot of what Haley said particularly as it applies to the abortion issue, her support for Ukraine, and although she didn't go as far as Christie has in disowning Trump, she did put some daylight between him and her. She's also a former accountant, meaning she would be less likely to "make it rain".

You're looking at money outside the parties, not inside. The Democrats viewed Hilary as the most electable candidate and the Party moved to crush Bernie.

In the Republican Party, Trump had some early megadonors that backed him and lots of support from within the Party from Cheney, Thiel, Koch Brothers, and most of his cabinet voted for him. Now most if his former cabinet hates him. Guys like Pete Thiel left his side. His own daughter Ivanka wants nothing to do with him. Jared Kushner doesn't appear to very involved with him any more. Carl Icahn is likely going to distance himself. All his whack job backers are getting indited with him. Pillow Guy is a joke.

All Trump has going for him right now is named recognition. The reason the polls have him high is his supporters still know his name and think of him as the only main candidate to vote for. But you won't win elections in August the prior year. I want to see what the Republican power players do with Trump in the run up. This thing hasn't even started yet as far as the attacks ads and moves to pick the next Republican leader. It's still sorting out. I think the big money doesn't want anything to do with Trump and his loser status. We'll see that when this things starts to get going early next year.

There is what happens in front of us, then there is what happens in the smoke-filled rooms. Those smoke-filled rooms still have power. I think a lot of the guys in the smoke-filled rooms are tired of Looney Loudmouth.

But we'll see soon enough. I do know that Mug Shot of Trump is going to be nice for attack ads.

[RiverDog]

All Trump has going for him right now is named recognition. The reason the polls have him high is his supporters still know his name and think of him as the only main candidate to vote for. But you won't win elections in August the prior year. I want to see what the Republican power players do with Trump in the run up. This thing hasn't even started yet as far as the attacks ads and moves to pick the next Republican leader. It's still sorting out. I think the big money doesn't want anything to do with Trump and his loser status. We'll see that when this things starts to get going early next year.

There is what happens in front of us, then there is what happens in the smoke-filled rooms. Those smoke-filled rooms still have power. I think a lot of the guys in the smoke-filled rooms are tired of Looney Loudmouth.

But we'll see soon enough. I do know that Mug Shot of Trump is going to be nice for attack ads.

Name recognition is huge, though. You, Cbob, Mack, I-5, North Hawk, and myself are the exceptions. We actually read/listen to what the candidates have to say. Most voters don't. They vote on name recognition, and Trump has that over the others in spades. People have their opinions about him set in concrete. If 4 criminal indictments aren't enough to sway their opinion on him, nothing is going to change it.

That's why Trump is skipping the debates. Why give the others an opportunity to get their name/face next to his? He has such a big advantage that he can afford to sit them out.

And yeah, I loved that mug shot. Classic Trump! They ought to make a postage stamp out of it.

[Aseahawkfan]

I would back Haley as well. I don't think Christie has a chance, not because of his obesity, but because if you don't know how to walk the Trump follower line you are asking to lose even if it is morally the right thing to do.

Presidents are not elected due to moral rightness. Morality is secondary at best in governance. You have to govern effectively and play to win if you're playing a world power game against evil men like Putin or people who are not playing by the rules like Xi and China.

Haley actually seems fairly sensible, educated, and capable. She doesn't seem to have some of the baggage DeSantis has. We'll see if she can get some traction.

[Aseahawkfan]

Name recognition is huge, though. You, Cbob, Mack, I-5, North Hawk, and myself are the exceptions. We actually read/listen to what the candidates have to say. Most voters don't. They vote on name recognition, and Trump has that over the others in spades. People have their opinions about him set in concrete. If 4 criminal indictments aren't enough to sway their opinion on him, nothing is going to change it.

That's why Trump is skipping the debates. Why give the others an opportunity to get their name/face next to his? He has such a big advantage that he can afford to sit them out.

And yeah, I loved that mug shot. Classic Trump! They ought to make a postage stamp out of it.

I don't know why you don't want to see it. I don't know if it is on purpose or you really believe it.

Presidents all engage in behavior we would consider criminal. If you have read on Biden, his family stinks like crazy of abuse of power for gaining money. Biden has been protecting his dirt bag son Hunter. Ronald Reagan had the Iran-Contra situation when he was president. You know Bush Sr. knew about it and probably helped set it all up. The Clintons criminality is well documented. Bush Jr. had Dick Cheney on his team, one of the most ruthless and criminal presidents in recent memory. Obama was probably the cleanest president since Carter.

Indictments of crimes you can easily see are as bad or worse than other presidents won't change any viewpoints. If we voted for presidents based on morality or not doing what normal people consider crimes, we wouldn't vote for anyone. Politics in America is a dirty business filled with morally fluid individuals who lie, cheat, and steal if they can get away with it. So that doesn't matter to many including myself.

I told you what bothered me about Trump. He doesn't know how to handle power. He doesn't know how to keep the peace. He doesn't know how to play the face man game while he's doing all his dirty crap. He doesn't understand he's not the biggest dog in Washington D.C. He seems to think being president is the same as being a CEO or boss in a company where people do what you say. That's not how D.C. works. You have to respect the power positions of others and what they can get done. You definitely don't start riots at the Capitol or constantly insult anyone who disagrees with you.

That's not how you handle power in America. Trump doesn't know how to handle power and shouldn't be allowed back in office. He already crapped the bed once and spent almost all his time in office making up names for people and trying to be an entertainer than a good president. I don't want that in office.

Indictments that don't lead to prison won't do much to Trump. Plenty of presidents have been accused of crimes. No one cares. It's why Hilary Clinton can publicly treat other women like trash to defend her husband Bill Clinton, have it all documented with video and news stories showing she did this, to suddenly becoming a women's right figure and face of the Metoo# movement. Hilary Clinton lost by a few million votes spread across several states. She was a part of a scumbag political power machine she built with her husband.

Biden most assuredly did make money off Ukrainian connections and China through his son as did his brothers. His family is dirty.

None of that matters if your sole reason for voting is driven by hate for the opposing side as manipulated by your media choices or loyalty to some single issue the party you vote for supports.

So I didn't expect the indictments to do much unless they lead to prison time.

What I want communicated which is what I'm relying on Republican power players to do is to show Trump is clearly unelectable, he mishandled power, and that if he runs again he will likely lose. Even if he wins, he will spend all his time fending off criminal charges, lawsuits, and impeachment. So it will be a waste of time to have him in office getting nothing done and listening to him whine for four years.

Only way Trump has any chance of getting anything done if he wins is if the Republicans win a majority in Congress and even then it will only be for agenda driven items like more tax breaks for their wealthy supporters.

It won't be much different with the Democrats except the Dems at least use government money in such a way as to ensure their wealthy supporters making tons of money keep more people employed with decent paying jobs in the factories that government money is building to restore manufacturing to the United States.

I'm not as down on Biden as most of the Republicans I hear about it. His infrastructure spending is building a lot of manufacturing capacity in the United States. So I'm fine mostly ignoring the next election if they put Crazy Narcissist back on the ticket or I'll write in Haley or DeSantis and be done with it.

[RiverDog]

I don't know why you don't want to see it. I don't know if it is on purpose or you really believe it.

Don't want to see what? Trump's mug shot? I think it's funnier than all get out. They're selling tee shirts and coffee cup mugs with it,

Presidents all engage in behavior we would consider criminal. If you have read on Biden, his family stinks like crazy of abuse of power for gaining money. Biden has been protecting his dirt bag son Hunter. Ronald Reagan had the Iran-Contra situation when he was president. You know Bush Sr. knew about it and probably helped set it all up. The Clintons criminality is well documented. Bush Jr. had Dick Cheney on his team, one of the most ruthless and criminal presidents in recent memory. Obama was probably the cleanest president since Carter.

You're not comparing what Trump is accused of to other former POTUS's, are you? There are huge differences, including the seriousness of the crimes and the quality of evidence. The only exception is the Stormy Daniels hush money case, which was blatantly politically motivated as it involves a Democratic DA known for reducing felony charges to misdemeanors but in this case has elevated a misdemeanor to a felony. Nothing that Biden, the Clintons, Bushes, Cheney, Nixon, Johnson, or any past POTUS has done is anywhere close to what Trump is accused of. It's like comparing a shoplifting crime to a triple murder.

An attempt to change the results of an election goes to the basic foundation of our democracy. Protecting a President's son from financial crimes like tax evasion is peanuts.

[Aseahawkfan]

You're not comparing what Trump is accused of to other former POTUS's, are you? There are huge differences, including the seriousness of the crimes and the quality of evidence. The only exception is the Stormy Daniels hush money case, which was blatantly politically motivated as it involves a Democratic DA known for reducing felony charges to misdemeanors but in this case has elevated a misdemeanor to a felony. Nothing that Biden, the Clintons, Bushes, Cheney, Nixon, Johnson, or any past POTUS has done is anywhere close to what Trump is accused of. It's like comparing a shoplifting crime to a triple murder.

An attempt to change the results of an election goes to the basic foundation of our democracy. Protecting a President's son from financial crimes like tax evasion is peanuts.

Yes. I am. They are the same, if not Trump's being less than some. You just don't want to see it and probably don't even pay attention to what other presidents have been accused of. The Clintons were accused of ties to China when they had a dinner with Chinese nationals that donated huge sums of money to their campaign, similar to the Russia accusations. Clinton was accused of mistreatment of women by multiple women including rape. I could list you a laundry list of crimes by each president other than Carter and Obama, some of which are far less than what Trump has been accused. Far, far less. The Bush Admin was even accused of war crimes, but never much investigated because no one had the juice to touch Bush Jr or Cheney. Most presidents know how to play the game and powerful members of their party protect them because of it.

My main point is it should be no surprise that Americans tolerate criminality in their presidents because presidents engage in a lot of behavior that isn't considered legal or ethical by the standards of regular citizens that would end up in jail if they did the same.

It's not just the presidential level, it's also at lower levels of office where Marion Barry was elected again after serving time for being a drug addict.

So this surprise at Trump's followers overlooking his criminality should not be even be a consideration for anyone that actually pays attention to the history of the president's office. What Trump has done is small potatoes.

Trump's biggest problem is he doesn't want to play the game. So he won't get much help covering things up like Clinton or Bush Jr. or Reagan. So they are taking things most politicians do and showing Trump that only with their protection if he plays the game will he get any protection in D.C.

Fact is very powerful people in the Democratic Party and Republican Party want Trump gone. They have pulled his protection. They have broken their normal rules of protecting candidates because Trump has broken all the conventions of Washington D.C. like accepting election losses, not causing chaos in the Capitol, not handing off his assets to trust while president, and trying to consider himself above the office.

I see Republicans publicly pretend to support him to appease his followers. I'm quite sure Mitt Romney, Mitch McConnell, now the Cheney's, the Bush's, most of his former cabinet, most former allies, quite a few monetary supporters of Trump's campaign, and more than a few others want Trump gone.

I'm too much of a student of history to buy the BS that Trump's crime are somehow worse than other presidents. I don't need to see a president investigated or publicly charged to know they are doing plenty of criminal activities and having them covered up by the political machine. Unlike you I do accept that plenty of underhanded behavior is done without the American people even knowing half of it and covered up by very powerful people who are very adept at doing so. We see only a fraction of the messed up stuff they do and Americans including yourself pay attention to even less of what is going on other than what you see on the news. I bet you barely understand how the American dollar as the reserve currency is even maintained which is in itself a very underhanded, criminal venture supported by both the Dems and Republicans. You don't care as long as the gas is cheap enough. Neither do most Americans.

But Trump has broken convention and thinks he's above the politicians in Washington D.C. He's learning that if you want to be protected in D.C., you don't piss off the political machine or it will be used against you.

This is why these discussions are mostly one-sided. Most don't give a crap about truth or fact.

This forum mostly hates Trump and wants him gone. Since I'm on board with that, I don't care how we get there. Trump's an idiot who doesn't know how to handle power. Get him as far away from The White House as possible.

[RiverDog]

I would back Haley as well. I don't think Christie has a chance, not because of his obesity, but because if you don't know how to walk the Trump follower line you are asking to lose even if it is morally the right thing to do.

Presidents are not elected due to moral rightness. Morality is secondary at best in governance. You have to govern effectively and play to win if you're playing a world power game against evil men like Putin or people who are not playing by the rules like Xi and China.

Haley actually seems fairly sensible, educated, and capable. She doesn't seem to have some of the baggage DeSantis has. We'll see if she can get some traction.

I've read some of Haley's takes on Social Security, an issue that both Dems and R's won't properly address and instead kick the can down the road hoping that it will simply go away. She's also voiced strong support for Ukraine. The more I read about her, the more I like her.

She's unlikely to win the nomination in 2024, but she's relatively young so I would expect her to be a serious contender in 2028.

[Aseahawkfan]

I've read some of Haley's takes on Social Security, an issue that both Dems and R's won't properly address and instead kick the can down the road hoping that it will simply go away. She's also voiced strong support for Ukraine. The more I read about her, the more I like her.

She's unlikely to win the nomination in 2024, but she's relatively young so I would expect her to be a serious contender in 2028.

Social security isn't going away. If anything Universal Basic income is going to become a thing before social security goes away. Removal of social security would push a huge number of people away from the Republican Party more so than any other issue.

I wouldn't spend much time on it myself as it is not going to get you anywhere but not elected and start a serious push again anyone pushing it.

This economy and world is becoming increasingly complex, automated, and is still highly consumer driven. When your options are a bunch of old and poor people pushed on the streets to riot, live in camps, and generally wander around as unhoused herd animals like bums or what you saw during The Great Depression or raise taxes and ensure social security and eventually Universal Basic income are funded, you'll do the funding.

Maybe they raise the age at some point, but this whole dystopian idea of social security disappearing without something similar to replace it won't be happening.

[RiverDog]

I've read some of Haley's takes on Social Security, an issue that both Dems and R's won't properly address and instead kick the can down the road hoping that it will simply go away. She's also voiced strong support for Ukraine. The more I read about her, the more I like her.

She's unlikely to win the nomination in 2024, but she's relatively young so I would expect her to be a serious contender in 2028.

Social security isn't going away. If anything Universal Basic income is going to become a thing before social security goes away. Removal of social security would push a huge number of people away from the Republican Party more so than any other issue.

I wouldn't spend much time on it myself as it is not going to get you anywhere but not elected and start a serious push again anyone pushing it.

This economy and world is becoming increasingly complex, automated, and is still highly consumer driven. When your options are a bunch of old and poor people pushed on the streets to riot, live in camps, and generally wander around as unhoused herd animals like bums or what you saw during The Great Depression or raise taxes and ensure social security and eventually Universal Basic income are funded, you'll do the funding.

Maybe they raise the age at some point, but this whole dystopian idea of social security disappearing without something similar to replace it won't be happening.

Of course, SS isn't going away. But at some point, they're going to have to make it sustainable, and they have two choices: Cut benefits and/or raise taxes.

I've been saying for years that they should get rid of early retirement. With the exception of disability, don't start paying benefits to anyone before age 67. That would address two problems: It would make SS more sustainable, and it would keep more people in the work force and help address the labor shortage.

The other thing they could do is increase the benefit of waiting to draw on your SS account. I'm currently 68 years old and not drawing on my SS, opting to wait until age 70 before I start drawing benefits and getting 132% of my full retirement amount (you get 8% more for every year you defer taking your benefit up to 4 years beyond your FRA). I lose money in the long run as I'd get more total money by drawing my SS at age 62, but I view my SS benefit as insurance against not running out of money before my wife and I die. Social Security wins because I am not taking the maximum lifetime amount if I live to 78, the average life expectancy. Push that out to 6 years and 148% of FRA and the system wins, and does so without cutting benefits to those that truly need them or raises taxes.

And they're going to have to bite the bullet and raise taxes, and the longer they wait, the more they're going to have to raise them by. Raise it on employers and not individuals and make it look like it's just the employers paying it. Employers will pass it on to their customers in the form of higher prices, but most people are too stupid to realize that so they'll be able to sell it.

But to my original point, I'm really starting to warm up to Haley. She's an accountant and understands budgets.

[Aseahawkfan]

Of course, SS isn't going away. But at some point, they're going to have to make it sustainable, and they have two choices: Cut benefits and/or raise taxes.

I've been saying for years that they should get rid of early retirement. With the exception of disability, don't start paying benefits to anyone before age 67. That would address two problems: It would make SS more sustainable, and it would keep more people in the work force and help address the labor shortage.

The other thing they could do is increase the benefit of waiting to draw on your SS account. I'm currently 68 years old and not drawing on my SS, opting to wait until age 70 before I start drawing benefits and getting 132% of my full retirement amount (you get 8% more for every year you defer taking your benefit up to 4 years beyond your FRA). I lose money in the long run as I'd get more total money by drawing my SS at age 62, but I view my SS benefit as insurance against not running out of money before my wife and I die. Social Security wins because I am not taking the maximum lifetime amount if I live to 78, the average life expectancy. Push that out to 6 years and 148% of FRA and the system wins, and does so without cutting benefits to those that truly need them or raises taxes.

And they're going to have to bite the bullet and raise taxes, and the longer they wait, the more they're going to have to raise them by. Raise it on employers and not individuals and make it look like it's just the employers paying it (they'll pass it on to their customers in the form of higher prices, but most people are too stupid to realize that).

But to my original point, I'm really starting to warm up to Haley. She's an accountant and understands budgets.

Glad you're not pushing some of these whackjob Republican attempts to defund or rid of us social security expecting everyone to be pushed into investing, which scares a ton of people, especially given school does not teach financial management.

You've done better than most preparing for retirement. Most people I know don't prepare very well at all. I advise younger people to start preparing while young, the majority ignore me even if they have a good employer matching plan.

I'm figuring like with most things in American politics, this is going to be handled haphazardly and to appease the screaming masses that mismanaged their money and now want Daddy Government to take care of them meaning all the folks that manage money intelligently to suffer greater taxes to pay for the idiots who managed their money poorly because we don't have a government that can say, "You messed up. Suffer the consequences of your idiot financial management." People rarely like to admit they did it to themselves. It's always going to be someone else's fault even though Americans have access to the greatest money building tools in the history of the world and more access to the capital markets than any generation in history.

Yeah. Haley is someone I could vote for. Probably write her in even if Narcissistic Ass somehow wins the nomination.

DeSantis is showing he is not up to playing on the big stage in my opinion. Though if he wins the nomination, I may still vote for him just to see a younger candidate in there. If he does nothing more than act as a placeholder for 4 years and wash the Trump Stink out and give us a reset from Biden, then I'll be ok casting my vote for him.

[RiverDog]

Glad you're not pushing some of these whackjob Republican attempts to defund or rid of us social security expecting everyone to be pushed into investing, which scares a ton of people, especially given school does not teach financial management.

Like it or not, our society is built social programs like SS and Medicare. We have no other option but to make them work. That's what many R's can't get through their thick heads.

It's not just the schools that aren't teaching personal financial management. It's not being taught by parents at home, either. I taught my daughter about compound interest, how putting money down on a principal earlier rather than later saves you more money. My dad taught me how to balance a checkbook and how to do my taxes.

You've done better than most preparing for retirement. Most people I know don't prepare very well at all. I advise younger people to start preparing while young, the majority ignore me even if they have a good employer matching plan.

Thanks, man. I started going to free retirement classes when I was 55. There's a ton of them, some offering a free dinner or lunch. You have to listen to their sales pitches as they're put on by financial counselors looking for clients, but they have a lot of good information. Our hospital has a foundation that holds monthly classes on Medicare, even lets you set up one-on-one appointments with a counselor, and since it's all supported by donations and the proceeds from the hospital gift shop, you don't have to listen to the sales pitches. The government isn't going to give you recommendations, only tell you what your options are. You have to educate yourself.

I made some mistakes, like not increasing my contributions to my HSA early enough, but we're in a really good position despite a big hunk being taken out of our nest egg due to the downturn on Wall St from the pandemic.

I'm figuring like with most things in American politics, this is going to be handled haphazardly and to appease the screaming masses that mismanaged their money and now want Daddy Government to take care of them meaning all the folks that manage money intelligently to suffer greater taxes to pay for the idiots who managed their money poorly because we don't have a government that can say, "You messed up. Suffer the consequences of your idiot financial management." People rarely like to admit they did it to themselves. It's always going to be someone else's fault even though Americans have access to the greatest money building tools in the history of the world and more access to the capital markets than any generation in history.

Yeah. Haley is someone I could vote for. Probably write her in even if Narcissistic Ass somehow wins the nomination.

DeSantis is showing he is not up to playing on the big stage in my opinion. Though if he wins the nomination, I may still vote for him just to see a younger candidate in there. If he does nothing more than act as a placeholder for 4 years and wash the Trump Stink out and give us a reset from Biden, then I'll be ok casting my vote for him.

Narcissistic Ass is winning the R nomination. I'm voting for Biden again unless I can find a decent 3rd party or independent to register a protest vote.

[I-5]

Don't want to see what? Trump's mug shot? I think it's funnier than all get out. They're selling tee shirts and coffee cup mugs with it

I love is the irony of the message 'never surrender' directly underneath his mugshot - he literally surrendered himsefl. I'm sure it's unintended.

[RiverDog]

Don't want to see what? Trump's mug shot? I think it's funnier than all get out. They're selling tee shirts and coffee cup mugs with it

I love is the irony of the message 'never surrender' directly underneath his mugshot - he literally surrendered himsefl. I'm sure it's unintended.

A little off topic, but don't they also take profile photos when they take mug shots? Or has facial recognition technology made it unnecessary?

[c_hawkbob]

I wanted to see him holding his booking number placard in front of a height chart too... but oh well.

[RiverDog]

I wanted to see him holding his booking number placard in front of a height chart too... but oh well.

LOL! That would have been priceless!

[Aseahawkfan]

Narcissistic Ass is winning the R nomination. I'm voting for Biden again unless I can find a decent 3rd party or independent to register a protest vote.

I wouldn't bet on it.

I'm expecting some real vicious moves closer to the primaries. You may even see Trump remove himself from the election.

I'm trusting the big money to know a loser when they see it.