If Obama was a white man......

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If Obama was a white man......

Postby Hawktawk » Wed Jun 11, 2014 2:54 pm

He would have been impeached a long time ago.

Richard Nixon is turning 7000 RPMs in his grave, bouncing off the rev limiter. Carter is breathing a sigh of relief at being off the hook as the weakest president in modern American history.
If you still support Obama tell me why. Is it the thousands of illegals flooding across the southern border? Obama-care? The 6 years of an absolutely terrible economy. The embarrassing repeated gaffes in foreign policy including getting long C@cked by Putin on a regular basis. The repeated lies to the American people? The attack on personal liberties and the right of privacy? Or is it because he was black(well half black) and so that's kind of cool, never mind the ramifications.
So just tell me Obama supporters. What has this man done that makes you still support him?
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Re: If Obama was a white man......

Postby burrrton » Wed Jun 11, 2014 4:35 pm

A rant weakly disguised as a question.

Or

How *not* to start a constructive conversation.
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Re: If Obama was a white man......

Postby RiverDog » Wed Jun 11, 2014 6:03 pm

Hawktawk wrote:He would have been impeached a long time ago.

Richard Nixon is turning 7000 RPMs in his grave, bouncing off the rev limiter. Carter is breathing a sigh of relief at being off the hook as the weakest president in modern American history.
If you still support Obama tell me why. Is it the thousands of illegals flooding across the southern border? Obama-care? The 6 years of an absolutely terrible economy. The embarrassing repeated gaffes in foreign policy including getting long C@cked by Putin on a regular basis. The repeated lies to the American people? The attack on personal liberties and the right of privacy? Or is it because he was black(well half black) and so that's kind of cool, never mind the ramifications.
So just tell me Obama supporters. What has this man done that makes you still support him?


Burrton is right. That initial post of yours is not a good way to start off a thread. You sound like a wild eyed, raving lunatic, and even though I don't care for Obama anymore than you do, I don't like engaging in a discussion when it starts out with that many caustic remarks.










=
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Re: If Obama was a white man......

Postby Eaglehawk » Wed Jun 11, 2014 9:46 pm

FYI Hawktawk,

The people that responded to this thread are not Obama supporters.
I wonder if there are many out there.
Race is the third rail of speaking to people in America.
As a matter of fact hawktawk, your point is well made, although as Riv and Burr mentioned a bit caustic, and a continuation of your prior rant. But its okay to rant. I doubt many Obama supporters will come on here and have it out with you because its more of a rant and not a discussion.

That being said, probably every Republican and Democrat in the country knows that this is the reason why Obama has not been impeached like Nixon. It is in part, because of his race.

Given the history of blacks and whites in this country, Obama has been able to leverage that to his advantage. It's a shame that's he's getting away with so much, and people are afraid to go after him because of his race(again, in part). When I voted for him in 2008, I truly believed the guy. Now? Burr and River and now you Hawktawk, you all know my feelings.
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Re: If Obama was a white man......

Postby Hawktawk » Wed Jun 11, 2014 10:15 pm

Hey I may have been venting but what did I say that was untrue? Is it OK to get lathered up when U think America is going down the tank? Sorry I don't think theres time to be polite....
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Re: If Obama was a white man......

Postby RiverDog » Thu Jun 12, 2014 5:08 am

Hawktawk wrote:Hey I may have been venting but what did I say that was untrue? Is it OK to get lathered up when U think America is going down the tank? Sorry I don't think theres time to be polite....


For starters, that he should be impeached. Not by the wildest stretch of the imagination did Obama commit "bribery, treason, and other high crimes and misdemeanors" as defined by the Constitution.

Secondly, the economy has been a rather mixed bag, not "absolutely terrible" as you characterize it. For example, unemployment has been on a steady decline since he took office and is currently at 6.3%. Anytime you tickle 5%, you're doing great. The stock market has performed rather well and inflation has been under control, coming in at 1.3%. This baby boomer remembers well the double digit inflation component of the infamous "misery index" of the late 70's and early 80's.

The requirements of a good, civil debate is that you not come into it with an agenda and try to keep an open mind.
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Re: If Obama was a white man......

Postby burrrton » Thu Jun 12, 2014 7:38 am

For starters, that he should be impeached. Not by the wildest stretch of the imagination did Obama commit "bribery, treason, and other high crimes and misdemeanors" as defined by the Constitution.


This^^.

The stock market has performed rather well and inflation has been under control, coming in at 1.3%.


I'm no expert, but I think this is due almost entirely to QEs 1 through, what are we on now, 273?

Inflation has thankfully stayed low, but I think there's some truth to the argument that a bubble's been created (again, though, the complexities of that are emphatically *not* in my wheelhouse).

For example, unemployment has been on a steady decline since he took office and is currently at 6.3%. Anytime you tickle 5%, you're doing great.


I think your statement that we're not all the way down the crapper (paraphrasing) is also true, but the recession officially ended in June 2009.

When you're still bouncing along the bottom, teetering on another recession, fully 5 years later, with most of the UE improvement due to people leaving the labor force (no, that's not all Obama's fault- rich, retiring guys like you account for a percentage of it :)), somebody did something wrong.
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Re: If Obama was a white man......

Postby Hawktown » Thu Jun 12, 2014 8:31 am

burrrton wrote:
For starters, that he should be impeached. Not by the wildest stretch of the imagination did Obama commit "bribery, treason, and other high crimes and misdemeanors" as defined by the Constitution.


This^^.

The stock market has performed rather well and inflation has been under control, coming in at 1.3%.


I'm no expert, but I think this is due almost entirely to QEs 1 through, what are we on now, 273?

Inflation has thankfully stayed low, but I think there's some truth to the argument that a bubble's been created (again, though, the complexities of that are emphatically *not* in my wheelhouse).

For example, unemployment has been on a steady decline since he took office and is currently at 6.3%. Anytime you tickle 5%, you're doing great.


I think your statement that we're not all the way down the crapper (paraphrasing) is also true, but the recession officially ended in June 2009.

When you're still bouncing along the bottom, teetering on another recession, fully 5 years later, with most of the UE improvement due to people leaving the labor force (no, that's not all Obama's fault- rich, retiring guys like you account for a percentage of it :)), somebody did something wrong.


This does not necessarily mean that someone did something wrong. It could very well mean that before the recession people,s businesses or jobs were going really great and then all of a sudden the economy crashes all around them unannounced. After that they had next to zero income to pay what it cost to live like they did and in an attempt to keep what they had they had to go through HUGE growing pains and in turn it has taken 5 plus years to get back on track or not yet break even. You act like there is a way out for everyone and there is not.
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Re: If Obama was a white man......

Postby Hawktawk » Thu Jun 12, 2014 1:50 pm

RiverDog wrote:
Hawktawk wrote:Hey I may have been venting but what did I say that was untrue? Is it OK to get lathered up when U think America is going down the tank? Sorry I don't think theres time to be polite....


For starters, that he should be impeached. Not by the wildest stretch of the imagination did Obama commit "bribery, treason, and other high crimes and misdemeanors" as defined by the Constitution.

Secondly, the economy has been a rather mixed bag, not "absolutely terrible" as you characterize it. For example, unemployment has been on a steady decline since he took office and is currently at 6.3%. Anytime you tickle 5%, you're doing great. The stock market has performed rather well and inflation has been under control, coming in at 1.3%. This baby boomer remembers well the double digit inflation component of the infamous "misery index" of the late 70's and early 80's.

The requirements of a good, civil debate is that you not come into it with an agenda and try to keep an open mind.



The economy is terrible. The numbers are cooked like a Christmas turkey. The real unemployment rate is nearer to 20 percent when you count all the underemployed people, people who gave up, people who have weaseled their way onto some sort of disability. Inflation sure looks bad to me when I buy gas or groceries.Food stamp use has nearly tripled in the last 6 years. The stock market is monopoly money, absolutely a house of cards designed for the fat cats to get fatter and the little guys to wind up holding the bag. If its a recovery at all its the weakest in history despite dumping so much of China's money into stimulus we could have given every American many thousands of dollars directly. And yet 6 years later they will still try to blame Bush!!!!!!!!!!

I was open minded in 2006 when Obama gave the Democratic response to the State of the Union. I thought he was an articulate, passionate moderate populist based on his prepared remarks, and as a lifelong Conservative I considered him someone I could vote for.I never gave a damn about his race, still don't. As I became aware of his radical connections to communists etc and his devotion to reverend Wrights hate speech based church I decided the old war hero was a better option. After watching this guy operate for 6 years the time for debate is over IMO. My mind is made up. Hes incompetent or evil, probably both.

As a man who admittedly did not support Obama's election yet refuses to see Impeachable offenses you are exactly the the type of person who is part of the reason he hasn't been.

Richard Nixon resigned facing certain Impeachment for covering up a 3rd rate political espionage burglary which he did not authorize. Bill Clinton was actually impeached by the house for covering up some stains on a blue dress. And mind you Obama couldn't sniff the jock strap of those 2 heavyweight leaders.

So here goes with the impeachable stuff. #1 Obama care. Not the dreadful law itself crammed through without 1 Republican vote. It is the fact that as the implications of the law began to skew public opinion against he and his party he has made 38 fundamental changes to the LAW PASSED BY CONGRESS without consulting Congress.Its all about delaying the real pain of this albatross until the midterms.But love em or hate em Congress is supposed to make and change laws. Its called separation of powers. Obama rules like an emperor.
#2 Benghazi. Sheer ineptitude led to the death of 2 navy seals and a sitting ambassador and his aide. Nobody even knows where our commander in chief was as our real estate was under attack and our citizens were screaming for backup. It is rumored he was in debate prep. But it really becomes impeachable when you march out Susan Rice to 5 Sunday shows to tell an absolute whopper to the American people and then the POS OTUS himself goes out and says the same thing for weeks. It was all about preserving an election victory. The fact that it is still being covered up now is about covering peoples asses. CIA operatives are still being polygraphed regularly and we really never have heard from other survivors. Its creepy,USSR esque.

#3 the refusal to enforce the immigration laws causing a crisis of huge proportions on our southern border. This one is staggering but unless you watch Fox or peruse alternative media you wont hear hardly a peep about it.Again, suppression of the real truth, border agents being threatened with termination for speaking to the media or showing pictures of the human disaster unfolding.

#4 trading 5 senior Taliban leaders for a soldier who deserted his post. Impeachable for not consulting any member of congress, ostensibly to prevent leaks although 90 administration officials knew. Oh and marching out good old Susan Rice to say the deserter served "with honor and distinction". Watching Baghdad Bob the father rattle off some Islamic nonsense in the rose garden was merely revolting, not impeachable, as is watching this administration impugn the character of the men who stayed and fought and had to go look for this piece of human excrement.
And anyone who thinks its a coincidence that Iraq is falling apart and Pakistan is under Islamic fundamentalist attack is a fool. This deal energized our sworn enemies who will never quit trying to kill us. Its called giving aid and comfort to the enemy.
This one might get him, because even the good Democrats have had it with him now.

I could go on and on. If these aren't impeachable offenses we ought to just do away with the entire concept.

Naw RD I don't think you can have a civil discussion about it anymore. Time is about up on America. I always wondered how great civilizations died. I'm watching the plane fly into the mountain and I'm on it, so sorry if I'm a little shrill.

I repeat my question, if you still support him and like him as president, why? Anybody?
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Re: If Obama was a white man......

Postby Hawktown » Thu Jun 12, 2014 4:22 pm

well said Hawktawk!
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Re: If Obama was a white man......

Postby burrrton » Fri Jun 13, 2014 12:52 pm

You act like there is a way out for everyone and there is not.


Of course not, and I didn't mean to imply that (and to be honest I'm not sure how I did), but I think you're reversing cause and effect.

People start doing better when the economy begins to recover, which economies do, not the reverse, and GDP growth in the ~1% range, if it grows *at all*, ain't a "recovery" in any classic formulation.

We *are* doing better, but what we're seeing now (assuming Q1's contraction is an anomaly) is about what we should have been experiencing in late 2009 if not even earlier.
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Re: If Obama was a white man......

Postby RiverDog » Sat Jun 14, 2014 5:02 am

The real unemployment rate is nearer to 20 percent when you count all the underemployed people, people who gave up, people who have weaseled their way onto some sort of disability.

Let's take a calculator to that statement. According to the BLS, there are currently 9.8 million unemployed, which amounts to 6.3% of the work force, which would peg total of employed and unemployed at about 155M.

http://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.nr0.htm

A 20% unemployment rate would equal 31 million people, and 31 minus the reported 9.8M equals 21.2. So what you are saying is that there are an additional 21.2 million people that have "given up or weaseled their way onto some sort of disability", which if true, would be 1.5M more people than currently live in the entire state of New York, which I find a little hard to believe. Do you have any credible sources by which to support such a claim?

Inflation sure looks bad to me when I buy gas or groceries.

The president, liberal and conservatives, have very little control over the price of gas. The major component of the price of a gallon of gas is crude oil, which is determined by the world wide market which can be influenced by things such as instability in the Middle East or a cold winter on the east coast. While I do agree that he's not doing a great job on energy policy by resisting attempts to establish pipelines and expand the exploration for crude oil and the insistence on some of these so called green power initiatives that liberals love so much, but it's unfair to blame Obama, as it was for liberals 6 years ago when they blamed George Bush, for high gas prices. Besides, they aren't any higher today than they were for the vast majority of the Bush administration. Here's a chart showing how volatile they've been:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/01/busin ... html?_r=1&

As far as what you're seeing at the supermarket, it depends on what groceries you're buying and when you're buying them, but overall, food prices haven't changed much since Obama took office..."Food prices may fluctuate from season to season, but overall they have risen at only a 2% compound rate since 2009"

http://business.time.com/2013/03/12/if- ... p-so-much/

Food stamp use has nearly tripled in the last 6 years.

Last February, Obama signed a bill that cut $8.7 billion from the food stamp program.

http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/obama-signs-food-stamp-cut

I repeat my question, if you still support him and like him as president, why? Anybody?

I support him and respect him in that he's our President even though I don't agree with very much of his politics. What I don't understand is where you're getting your information as you seem to be just pulling numbers off the top of your head and I'm having a hard time figuring out what the real source of your rage is. You're not making a logical, fact based argument.

Edit: I've never voted for a Dem as President since I first voted for Nixon in '72. WTF's going on with me defending a Dem prez?...lol.
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Re: If Obama was a white man......

Postby Hawktawk » Sat Jun 14, 2014 8:44 am

The
RiverDog wrote:The real unemployment rate is nearer to 20 percent when you count all the underemployed people, people who gave up, people who have weaseled their way onto some sort of disability.

Let's take a calculator to that statement. According to the BLS, there are currently 9.8 million unemployed, which amounts to 6.3% of the work force, which would peg total of employed and unemployed at about 155M.

http://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.nr0.htm

A 20% unemployment rate would equal 31 million people, and 31 minus the reported 9.8M equals 21.2. So what you are saying is that there are an additional 21.2 million people that have "given up or weaseled their way onto some sort of disability", which if true, would be 1.5M more people than currently live in the entire state of New York, which I find a little hard to believe. Do you have any credible sources by which to support such a claim?

Inflation sure looks bad to me when I buy gas or groceries.

The president, liberal and conservatives, have very little control over the price of gas. The major component of the price of a gallon of gas is crude oil, which is determined by the world wide market which can be influenced by things such as instability in the Middle East or a cold winter on the east coast. While I do agree that he's not doing a great job on energy policy by resisting attempts to establish pipelines and expand the exploration for crude oil and the insistence on some of these so called green power initiatives that liberals love so much, but it's unfair to blame Obama, as it was for liberals 6 years ago when they blamed George Bush, for high gas prices. Besides, they aren't any higher today than they were for the vast majority of the Bush administration. Here's a chart showing how volatile they've been:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/01/busin ... html?_r=1&

As far as what you're seeing at the supermarket, it depends on what groceries you're buying and when you're buying them, but overall, food prices haven't changed much since Obama took office..."Food prices may fluctuate from season to season, but overall they have risen at only a 2% compound rate since 2009"

http://business.time.com/2013/03/12/if- ... p-so-much/

Food stamp use has nearly tripled in the last 6 years.

Last February, Obama signed a bill that cut $8.7 billion from the food stamp program.

http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/obama-signs-food-stamp-cut

I repeat my question, if you still support him and like him as president, why? Anybody?

I support him and respect him in that he's our President even though I don't agree with very much of his politics. What I don't understand is where you're getting your information as you seem to be just pulling numbers off the top of your head and I'm having a hard time figuring out what the real source of your rage is. You're not making a logical, fact based argument.

Edit: I've never voted for a Dem as President since I first voted for Nixon in '72. WTF's going on with me defending a Dem prez?...lol.


Quoting a government agency about labor statistics is like letting the fox guard the hen house. Its common knowledge that these agencies have simply stopped counting millions of people who have given up. More workers have left the workforce than have found jobs in the last 6 years. And U tout the Pres signing his 8.9 Billion in welfare cuts. The same article says the republicans wanted 30 to 40 billion in cuts . Quoting the NYT about anything related to their hero Obama is naive at best.

But I see you completely ignored the biggest problems Ive had with Obama, namely Obama-care, Benghazi,The disaster on the southern border and the suppression of media and patrol agents reporting or showing pictures. And the topper for me, trading 5 Taliban commanders including two who were mass murderers for a deserter and then misrepresenting his actions in Afghanistan to make the deal look better. This deal was rejected the last two years by the democratically controlled senate and so Obama simply went around them, breaking a promise to come before them about any prisoner swap.

And let me add on the complete anarchy which is gripping much of the middle east because Obama leads from the rear and consequently nations and bad actors do not fear America anymore.

What part of me having issues with these things is an irrational argument? RD you may have never voted Democratic but you might as well start. Your exactly the kind of guy Obama needs right now. As for me, I cant support or respect a man who has trampled the constitution 6 ways to Sunday. But you go for it....
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Re: If Obama was a white man......

Postby burrrton » Sat Jun 14, 2014 8:47 am

Edit: I've never voted for a Dem as President since I first voted for Nixon in '72. WTF's going on with me defending a Dem prez?...lol.


Intellectual integrity, a willingness and ability to evaluate rationally and criticize or defend based on what you see rather than what party the pol is in (and I could quibble about some of your conclusions there, to be clear).

Something a lot of people could use a lot more of these days.
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Re: If Obama was a white man......

Postby Eaglehawk » Sat Jun 14, 2014 10:30 am

Sure you could say it is RT, etc.
But I ask all of you to listen carefully to each word.
Not agreeing and stating your reason is cool. Just please check out the vid.
Some parts I agree, some I do not by the way, just me. My point gents, is that we are not speaking in a vacuum. Many others are having these same discussions around the world about the "big picture".

http://rt.com/shows/the-truthseeker/162 ... ke-russia/
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Re: If Obama was a white man......

Postby Eaglehawk » Sat Jun 14, 2014 10:44 am

Remember Obama wanted Amnesty? Republicans did not want to play ball. Now, the Republicans have no choice. Why?
Obama and Holder run the country now.(tongue in cheek)
You want to see a backdoor amnesty? You got it. And more and more illegals will be coming to America because the President will force it on the American people if they don't like it. Its all orchestrated. It's planned folks, see the link I posted in another thread OT. At Columbia University they taught me to think outside of the box. I hope others on here will at least understand the MACRO ECONOMIC picture here. And yes my major was Finance and Economics.
Let me give you my opinion on one small sliver:
Obama could not get immigration reform passed, so he created a crisis to make his point. Children crossing the border. His ordering Border Agents to stand down,(their words not mine), and BAM, backdoor amnesty.

I am sad because many people don't see this as yet. The Virginians in Cantor's district saw it. But unfortunately, in Graham's district its open voting, so democrats can vote for him as well, and they did 20 percent. He got re-elected.

And yeah, I'm ALMOST the opposite of River, (though not as old, but I was all over the place. I voted for Bush first term, then against him the second term. Then I voted for Obama first term, and AGAINST him the second term. Then I woke up. Both parties are on the take guys. Burr knows this and you do too Riv.

We just may disagree as to how things will play out. And I respect that about both of you. And I would love to hear more about this stuff. Its quite interesting actually as long as we don't go for each other's throats. RD Excellent post. Hawktawk, EXCELLENT response. I enjoyed reading both of those posts. We will need more of this to give us as much info as possible so people can make up their own minds.
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Re: If Obama was a white man......

Postby FolkCrusader » Sat Jun 14, 2014 1:04 pm

That was a nice try RD, but I don't see that Hawktalk is willing to change his mind. You confront him with facts that show half of his theories are wrong and irrational. The counter argument? The facts are wrong and my other arguments are stronger.

Here's my response Hawktalk. When you make an irrational and factually incorrect statement it tends to make all of your statements sound irrational and factually incorrect.

Would I hold up Obama as the epitome of Presidential success? Heck no. He has had some victories, but many let downs. I'm as critical of him as I was of Bush II. In fact, if you really look at the facts the same can be said about every President I've studied. The Presidents who were in office during good economic times tend to be remembered with more reverence. But most have some colossal failures to go with their successes. I think this President takes the job very seriously, but in the end I think his judgement on large issues is lacking and I think he has trouble taking advice from those that oppose him.

Treason, bribery, high crimes and misdemeanors? Please, that just crybaby talk from a person disappointed that his party is not in power and decisions aren't going the way they would like.
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Re: If Obama was a white man......

Postby RiverDog » Sat Jun 14, 2014 3:17 pm

Hawktawk wrote:Quoting a government agency about labor statistics is like letting the fox guard the hen house. Its common knowledge that these agencies have simply stopped counting millions of people who have given up. More workers have left the workforce than have found jobs in the last 6 years. And U tout the Pres signing his 8.9 Billion in welfare cuts. The same article says the republicans wanted 30 to 40 billion in cuts . Quoting the NYT about anything related to their hero Obama is naive at best.

But I see you completely ignored the biggest problems Ive had with Obama, namely Obama-care, Benghazi,The disaster on the southern border and the suppression of media and patrol agents reporting or showing pictures. And the topper for me, trading 5 Taliban commanders including two who were mass murderers for a deserter and then misrepresenting his actions in Afghanistan to make the deal look better. This deal was rejected the last two years by the democratically controlled senate and so Obama simply went around them, breaking a promise to come before them about any prisoner swap.

And let me add on the complete anarchy which is gripping much of the middle east because Obama leads from the rear and consequently nations and bad actors do not fear America anymore.

What part of me having issues with these things is an irrational argument? RD you may have never voted Democratic but you might as well start. Your exactly the kind of guy Obama needs right now. As for me, I cant support or respect a man who has trampled the constitution 6 ways to Sunday. But you go for it....


Ignored? Christ Almighty, even if I wanted to, your rant was so long that it would have taken half my morning to answer all of the points you brought up, and required a 6 pack to reply fully. I was just drinking coffee. All I did was shoot down the gimmies, the ones that required the least amount of effort.

If you don't like my references, then fine. Where's yours? Where did you get this 20% unemployment rate from? That's why I am calling your argument irrational, because you are not supporting it with any facts. It's all opinion and unsubstantiated speculation. You haven't posted one single reference to support any of your claims.
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Re: If Obama was a white man......

Postby Hawktawk » Sat Jun 14, 2014 4:04 pm

FolkCrusader wrote:That was a nice try RD, but I don't see that Hawktalk is willing to change his mind. You confront him with facts that show half of his theories are wrong and irrational. The counter argument? The facts are wrong and my other arguments are stronger.

Here's my response Hawktalk. When you make an irrational and factually incorrect statement it tends to make all of your statements sound irrational and factually incorrect.

Would I hold up Obama as the epitome of Presidential success? Heck no. He has had some victories, but many let downs. I'm as critical of him as I was of Bush II. In fact, if you really look at the facts the same can be said about every President I've studied. The Presidents who were in office during good economic times tend to be remembered with more reverence. But most have some colossal failures to go with their successes. I think this President takes the job very seriously, but in the end I think his judgement on large issues is lacking and I think he has trouble taking advice from those that oppose him.

Treason, bribery, high crimes and misdemeanors? Please, that just crybaby talk from a person disappointed that his party is not in power and decisions aren't going the way they would like.


I cant say either party really represents me anymore and that would include the posers in the Tea Party. They are all a bunch of millionaires that really have no true core values or goals other than lining their pockets and those of their buddies. DC is the richest town in America with the Rolls Royce, Ferrari, Maserati, Lamborghini dealerships and the hottest real estate market in the nation.We should all go to Washington with pitchforks and throw every damn one of them out.

I don't think this president takes the job very seriously at all. MOF Democrats are grumbling that he is disinterested and seems bored with being the president. Also that his scandal plagued inept administration will likely cost them the senate in November.Hes the golfer and vacationer in chief, the ditherer,Mr gum chewing selfie snapping clown with his figurative middle finger exposed to us all.

So OK all you cheerleaders for this great economy, you have me convinced its great, awesome. Hes done terrific with that.I'm totally wrong. So lets dispense with that red herring OK?

Someone please give me your take on the Obama care gerrymandering, Benghazi, the chaos on our southern border, trading 5 extremely dangerous terrorists for a deserter etc. Hell anyone got any thoughts on the IRS scandal?NSA spying? Fast and furious?There are no crimes or misdemeanors there? Really?

My thread title dealt with Obama's race being the reason hes still in office. But maybe I'm wrong about that too. I think a majority of Americans just don't give a damn anymore.Head in the sand or up their arse so far they need a windshield wiper on their navel to see where they are going.

Play the race card, the political affiliation card. Shout the dissenters down. Its all peaches and cream folks, I'm just a raving lunatic. Sorry to waste your time.
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Re: If Obama was a white man......

Postby Eaglehawk » Sat Jun 14, 2014 10:08 pm

I agree with Hawktawk sentiments.

I voted for Obama and I don't understand why proceedings have not commenced against him. If you asked me that a US President would release 5 terrorists for a questionable soldier and not inform Congress, he would spy on Americans(NSA)and attack conservative groups(IRS), he would encourage a flood of illegals to the US, and that we would watch Vets die while waiting for medical treatment and that Congress would do nothing about this, I would say you are crazy.

I think most Americans are not informed as yet for whatever reason.

I think in the future you will see extremists from the left and the right organize into separate groups that may or may not work together. Its happening now. Elizabeth Warren is surging on the Democratic side, which I find interesting.


Nice article.
http://www.nationaljournal.com/politics ... n-20140611
Last edited by Eaglehawk on Sun Jun 15, 2014 1:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: If Obama was a white man......

Postby RiverDog » Sat Jun 14, 2014 10:52 pm

Eaglehawk wrote:I agree with Hawktawk sentiments.

I voted for Obama and I don't understand why proceedings have not commenced against him. If you asked me that a US President would release 5 terrorists for a questionable soldier and not inform Congress, he would spy on Americans and conservative groups(IRS), he would encourage a flood of illegals to the US, and that we would watch Vets die while waiting for medical treatment and that Congress would do nothing about this, I would say you are crazy.

I think most Americans are not informed as yet for whatever reason.

I think in the future you will see extremists from the left and the right organize into separate groups that may or may not work together. Its happening now. Elizabeth Warren is surging on the Democratic side, which I find interesting.


Nice article.
http://www.nationaljournal.com/politics ... n-20140611


I didn't like the prisoner exchange, thought it was a bad deal for a guy that is accused of desertion. But I do accept his explanation for not telling Congress about it. I won't defend him over the IRS and Veterans Affairs scandals, only to say that neither of them nor the combination of the two rise to an impeachable offense. If we impeached every President that had a scandal within their administration, none of them would serve a full term.
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Re: If Obama was a white man......

Postby Eaglehawk » Sun Jun 15, 2014 9:35 am

Maybe you are correct Riv. What do you think about Benghazi? Do you think any impeachable offenses were committed during that fiasco?
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Re: If Obama was a white man......

Postby burrrton » Sun Jun 15, 2014 9:47 am

But I do accept his explanation for not telling Congress about it.


Which one?
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Re: If Obama was a white man......

Postby FolkCrusader » Sun Jun 15, 2014 6:40 pm

Well, since OBS took on Benghasi I guess I can try to take on Berghasi.

First off, I have read the same accounts that you all have read and it does appear that Bergdahl walked away from his post just prior to his being captured. None the less, there is no doubt the Taliban treated him like a captured soldier for five years. Two of those years he spent in isolation. Some of you may know what effects long term isolation has on a person. I can only say that they are severe and in most cases irreversible. The final decision to trade for him was made because military sources (they had drones that monitored even the conversations in his prison) determined that he was extremely ill and probably could be dead in as soon as a month given his current condition. The White House quickly pulled the trigger and exchanged him for 5 Taliban prisoners.

So there are three primary issues that get brought up about this trade. 1) It was illegal given a law that was passed recently that required congress be notified before an exchange of prisoners. 2) The prisoners were all highly placed Taliban operatives and should not have been released. 3) Bergdahl is a deserter and therefore was not worthy to be traded.

As far as the exchange, it may have been illegal. The reality is the President has very broad powers to act in that situation. I'm sure there will be hearings over it and an answer will be had at some point. As far as congress not being informed? They had been informed, many times. And each time they chose to try and politicize it to the point of inaction. They clearly were not informed at the point of the transaction. I think in the end the President realized that if he was going to pull the trigger he would have to act unilaterally.

Regarding the Taliban members that were exchanged. Interestingly the GTMO files for each of these guys are available on wikileaks. I have read them all and although a bit dry, they explain how each of them were captured and for what purpose they have been detained. Most were turned over by Pakistanis for the very large rewards that were being offered post 9/11. Although lots of cooks and valets named as "high level agents" were also turned over by Pakistanis all of these guys were involved with Taliban at some notable level. One had risen to be a division level commander in the Taliban militia. Two had been province governors. One held a key intelligence position. Most had political connections to Iran, Bin Laden, or other key people in the middle east. Most of them were said to have been very cooperative during interviews. They have also been cut off from the Taliban for over 10 years. Are they a dream team of terrorists? Maybe, but at this point they have been photographed 6 ways to Sunday. They may be welcomed home as martyrs, but they will never be trusted with high level positions again. And even if they were accepted back they know what would hunt them and how quickly they could be located and killed. Furthermore, the war in Afghanistan is due to end in the next year. These guys are all members of what is going to be the de facto ruling party when we leave. They would have been released anyway.

The Bergdahl story the political right and the media have labeled him a deserter and a traitor. The fact that no courts martial has occurred and that Bergdahl has had no chance to speak for himself matters little to his disparagers. I agree the facts of the case that we know look grim, but the guy deserves his day in court before he is hung by the country. The reality is now that it's too late for that. He has already been tried and convicted in the court of public opinion. Personally I think that is sad but it's clear most Americans do not. Whatever the amount of sins Bergdahl committed, they had nothing to do with the choice to get him back. He was coming back either in a body bag or like this. If you prefer he came back in a bag, go ahead, stand up, be counted.
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Re: If Obama was a white man......

Postby Eaglehawk » Sun Jun 15, 2014 11:58 pm

Old but Slow wrote:Benghasi? Oh, the outrage. How about the Bush (the younger) years? Shall I list them? OK, I will.

On 1/22/02 the US consulate in Kolkata attacked, 5 Americans killed. On 6/14/02, Karachi, 12 Americans dead. On 2/28/03 the embassy in Islamibad, 2 dead. 6/30/04, embassy in Tashkent, 2 dead. 12/6/04, the US compound Saudi Arabia, 9 killed. 3/2/06, consulate in Karachi (again), 2 dead. 9/12/06, the embassy in Syria, 4 deaths. 3/18/08, the embassy in Yemen, 2 dead. 7/9/08, the consulate in Istanbul, with 6 dead. And on 9/17/08, the embassy in Yemen (again), with 16 dead. That comes to 60 American deaths.

Several ambassadors and other high officials have been killed when on duty overseas over the last several decades. It is a risk they take.


Agreed. And we could go even further back to Reagan and the 200 soldiers killed at the American compound, Nixon, and Kennedy with the Americans killed during the Bay of Pigs fiasco.
Most of these events occurred quickly and the events already unfolded by the time any of the Presidents knew about them. In this case the attack on Benghazi occurred for several hours with high ranking officials giving stand down orders. The the President supposedly also being in the loop. Those retired seals and other contractors held these people at bay for several hours before they were killed according to reports. They also requested assistance and air support which was available. You don't think we should find out who gave those orders? Also it is public record that the Ambassador was gun running for the Syrian rebels. Also the Ambassador requested a beefed up security presence at the Embassy which was refused. Again, circumstances a bit different here, at least in my eyes.
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Re: If Obama was a white man......

Postby Eaglehawk » Mon Jun 16, 2014 12:10 am

FolkCrusader wrote:Well, since OBS took on Benghasi I guess I can try to take on Berghasi.

First off, I have read the same accounts that you all have read and it does appear that Bergdahl walked away from his post just prior to his being captured. None the less, there is no doubt the Taliban treated him like a captured soldier for five years. Two of those years he spent in isolation. Some of you may know what effects long term isolation has on a person. I can only say that they are severe and in most cases irreversible. The final decision to trade for him was made because military sources (they had drones that monitored even the conversations in his prison) determined that he was extremely ill and probably could be dead in as soon as a month given his current condition. The White House quickly pulled the trigger and exchanged him for 5 Taliban prisoners.

So there are three primary issues that get brought up about this trade. 1) It was illegal given a law that was passed recently that required congress be notified before an exchange of prisoners. 2) The prisoners were all highly placed Taliban operatives and should not have been released. 3) Bergdahl is a deserter and therefore was not worthy to be traded.

As far as the exchange, it may have been illegal. The reality is the President has very broad powers to act in that situation. I'm sure there will be hearings over it and an answer will be had at some point. As far as congress not being informed? They had been informed, many times. And each time they chose to try and politicize it to the point of inaction. They clearly were not informed at the point of the transaction. I think in the end the President realized that if he was going to pull the trigger he would have to act unilaterally.

Regarding the Taliban members that were exchanged. Interestingly the GTMO files for each of these guys are available on wikileaks. I have read them all and although a bit dry, they explain how each of them were captured and for what purpose they have been detained. Most were turned over by Pakistanis for the very large rewards that were being offered post 9/11. Although lots of cooks and valets named as "high level agents" were also turned over by Pakistanis all of these guys were involved with Taliban at some notable level. One had risen to be a division level commander in the Taliban militia. Two had been province governors. One held a key intelligence position. Most had political connections to Iran, Bin Laden, or other key people in the middle east. Most of them were said to have been very cooperative during interviews. They have also been cut off from the Taliban for over 10 years. Are they a dream team of terrorists? Maybe, but at this point they have been photographed 6 ways to Sunday. They may be welcomed home as martyrs, but they will never be trusted with high level positions again. And even if they were accepted back they know what would hunt them and how quickly they could be located and killed. Furthermore, the war in Afghanistan is due to end in the next year. These guys are all members of what is going to be the de facto ruling party when we leave. They would have been released anyway.

The Bergdahl story the political right and the media have labeled him a deserter and a traitor. The fact that no courts martial has occurred and that Bergdahl has had no chance to speak for himself matters little to his disparagers. I agree the facts of the case that we know look grim, but the guy deserves his day in court before he is hung by the country. The reality is now that it's too late for that. He has already been tried and convicted in the court of public opinion. Personally I think that is sad but it's clear most Americans do not. Whatever the amount of sins Bergdahl committed, they had nothing to do with the choice to get him back. He was coming back either in a body bag or like this. If you prefer he came back in a bag, go ahead, stand up, be counted.


You and I both agree that this move was probably illegal. Sure Bergdahl suffered. According to his fellow soldiers he deserted, several different people say this not just one person. Do you think that the families of the people that died searching for him are happy? Even if we say he did not desert, until proven in court, he did leave under dubious circumstances.

To give 5 terrorists for this guy is unbelievable. Would you have done that if you were President? What happened to not negotiating with terrorists? Maybe they would have been released anyway, but why do this now? Maybe he was going downhill, and maybe this is justification for you to have given up 5 terrorists for him and lost more 1 soldier looking for him as well. I don't see the logic. Maybe he went to the other side and their prison as a ruse. Maybe he was just there to get information for the Americans on the Taliban.
If that were the case, I would understand that logic a bit more.
But so far nothing like that has surfaced, in fact just the opposite.
I am open to seeing your point of view, however, something about this story does not add up.
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Re: If Obama was a white man......

Postby Hawktawk » Mon Jun 16, 2014 1:00 am

Just Friday the IRS informed the house committee investigating the IRS scandal that they had lost ALL the Emails between Lois Lerner and DOJ,white house, etc. They blamed it on a computer crash. Mind you these records have been under subpoena for over a year. How is any number of these scandals different from Watergate?````````````````````They are worse IMO.
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Re: If Obama was a white man......

Postby makena » Mon Jun 16, 2014 6:17 am

The New York Jets is why America is the greatest Country in the world:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q49NOyJ8fNA

If you want "Freedom", move to Europe... oh wait, is that called European Union or the Eurozone? ... Wait, it's called Schengen Area:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O37yJBFRrfg

It's really just a public relation issue when it comes to political parties. Check this out:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7tWHJfhiyo
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Re: If Obama was a white man......

Postby burrrton » Mon Jun 16, 2014 7:44 am

Just Friday the IRS informed the house committee investigating the IRS scandal that they had lost ALL the Emails between Lois Lerner and DOJ,white house, etc. They blamed it on a computer crash.


And every IT guy on the planet simultaneously went "How stupid does he think we are?!?"
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Re: If Obama was a white man......

Postby burrrton » Mon Jun 16, 2014 7:50 am

Old but Slow wrote:Did Obama sell weapons to Iran to start a war in Central America? Did he start a war in Iraq because of lies about weapons of mass destruction? Did he refuse to pursue Bin Laden because he didn't really matter?

The country is in the thrall of corporate money, the people have nothing to say, and you are blaming the black man. Shame on you.


Translation: "BUUUUUUUUUUSH! Also, racist!"

Obama also didn't blow his load on an intern or fck-up the Tet Offensive, but other Presidents' shortcomings are a weak defense.

Shame on *you* for your bullsh*t racism charge.

Old but Slow wrote:Benghasi? Oh, the outrage. How about the Bush (the younger) years? Shall I list them? OK, I will.

...

Several ambassadors and other high officials have been killed when on duty overseas over the last several decades. It is a risk they take.


Ever heard the old saw "It's not the scandal but the cover-up"?
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Re: If Obama was a white man......

Postby Eaglehawk » Mon Jun 16, 2014 7:59 am

burrrton wrote:
Just Friday the IRS informed the house committee investigating the IRS scandal that they had lost ALL the Emails between Lois Lerner and DOJ,white house, etc. They blamed it on a computer crash.


And every IT guy on the planet simultaneously went "How stupid does he think we are?!?"



Apparently very very very very stupid. Hint with my sarcastic agreement: even us non IT guys see through this one. Yet Congress does nothing.
This stuff is starting to get very creepy.
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Re: If Obama was a white man......

Postby burrrton » Mon Jun 16, 2014 8:43 am

This stuff is starting to get very creepy.


It really is.

And I didn't mean to imply that I thought that ridiculous explanation was plausible to anyone else- just that anyone remotely familiar with IT knows for a fact those emails couldn't have been permanently lost by anything but a widespread, concerted effort to intentionally delete them from aaaaaalll the different locations they would reside, *and* also to destroy the myriad physical archives (her workstation's hard drive, the backup tapes, etc).

In fact, I suspect that even now they could probably be recovered if there was a chance in h3ll this administration would give anyone the appropriate access.

The self-inflicted wounds this admin causes are truly baffling.
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Re: If Obama was a white man......

Postby RiverDog » Mon Jun 16, 2014 1:14 pm

Eaglehawk wrote:Maybe you are correct Riv. What do you think about Benghazi? Do you think any impeachable offenses were committed during that fiasco?


The short answer is no. Although in general I am not at all happy with Obama, I have not seen anything that rises to the level of impeachment, which I regard as having an extremely high bar. It is not a means of which was designed to overturn an election simply because we don't like certain management decisions that were made. It is for very serious, felony level crimes or blatantly treasonous behavior.

As a matter of fact, in retrospect, I am beginning to change my mind about Clinton's impeachment, mainly because he was not even disbarred for what I had believed to have been perjured testimony in a court of law. If it were that serious of a crime, he would have been prosecuted for it after he left office as Nixon surely would have had Ford not pardoned him. Impeachment is not an option that we should be so easily tossing around.

If you guys don't like Obama, fine. Instead of wasting time on a sports orientated internet forum whining about impeaching him, you should be out there finding an opposition candidate in preparation for the 2016 election. Impeachment ain't gonna happen, and even if it did, you'd still be saddled with Joe Biden, which could be jumping from the frying pan into the fire.
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Re: If Obama was a white man......

Postby Hawktown » Mon Jun 16, 2014 6:31 pm

RiverDog wrote:
Eaglehawk wrote:Maybe you are correct Riv. What do you think about Benghazi? Do you think any impeachable offenses were committed during that fiasco?


The short answer is no. Although in general I am not at all happy with Obama, I have not seen anything that rises to the level of impeachment, which I regard as having an extremely high bar. It is not a means of which was designed to overturn an election simply because we don't like certain management decisions that were made. It is for very serious, felony level crimes or blatantly treasonous behavior.

As a matter of fact, in retrospect, I am beginning to change my mind about Clinton's impeachment, mainly because he was not even disbarred for what I had believed to have been perjured testimony in a court of law. If it were that serious of a crime, he would have been prosecuted for it after he left office as Nixon surely would have had Ford not pardoned him. Impeachment is not an option that we should be so easily tossing around.

If you guys don't like Obama, fine. Instead of wasting time on a sports orientated internet forum whining about impeaching him, you should be out there finding an opposition candidate in preparation for the 2016 election. Impeachment ain't gonna happen, and even if it did, you'd still be saddled with Joe Biden, which could be jumping from the frying pan into the fire.



Unfortunately, there is ZERO way of voting our way out of this mess. If you can impeach a president for a BJ, then you should DAMN WELL want a president impeached for NOT FOLLOWING THE LAW.

If any president does ANYTHING ILLEGAL, he should be removed from his post IMMEDIATELY, and then tried for the offense and serve TWICE the punishment an everyday Joe would spend!!! The president should be held to higher standard but can get away with ANYTHING without punishment, I call BS!!! Past presidents should have been as well and ford should have not been able to pardon nixon either.
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Re: If Obama was a white man......

Postby Hawktawk » Mon Jun 16, 2014 7:11 pm

Pres was able to step away from the rigors of the job to play a little golf this weekend in Palm Springs. But don't worry he had Susan Rice advising him on the myriad of foreign policy train wrecks around the globe. God help us...............

Ya RD we have pres Biden if Obama's gone. But I never thought I would say this. He would be better. They are both clowns but Biden would do a better job. He couldn't do worse..

Nixon resigned in part because of an incredible story about how his secretary had inadvertently erased some phone conversations. I cut my teeth on Watergate and studied it very intensely. I believe there have been more criminal offenses committed by this administration.Certainly more than Clinton.

Gotta say RD. Ive always said I want you on my jury and Ive never seen anything to change my mind.
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Re: If Obama was a white man......

Postby Hawktown » Mon Jun 16, 2014 7:49 pm

Old but Slow wrote:Hawktown, I would take your point a step further. Public officials should be held to a higher standard, especially police, elected officials, and judges. Automatically tougher penalties. But, not football players (j/k).



LOL, Actually after i turned off the computer i contemplated coming back to state the same thing! If that was the case there would be less incentive to do wrong.
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Re: If Obama was a white man......

Postby RiverDog » Mon Jun 16, 2014 8:34 pm

Hawktown wrote:[Unfortunately, there is ZERO way of voting our way out of this mess. If you can impeach a president for a BJ, then you should DAMN WELL want a president impeached for NOT FOLLOWING THE LAW.

If any president does ANYTHING ILLEGAL, he should be removed from his post IMMEDIATELY, and then tried for the offense and serve TWICE the punishment an everyday Joe would spend!!! The president should be held to higher standard but can get away with ANYTHING without punishment, I call BS!!! Past presidents should have been as well and ford should have not been able to pardon nixon either.


Clinton was not impeached for a BJ. He was impeached for perjury. I don't care if he was asked if he jacks off and said no and it was later proven that he did. A lie is a lie and perjury is perjury. Once you raise your hand and swear, it changes little white lies to perjured testimony. The only reason I have soften my position is that the courts did not pursue Clinton after he left office even though I thought they should have, so I yield to their judgment. Not knowing what I do know now, I still would have advocated impeachment and removal from office.

I do not believe a President should be impeached for ANY crime, only "high crimes". For example, I would not have wanted to impeach Reagan over Iran Contra because he circumvented Congress. It was a foreign policy struggle between the Executive and Legislative Branches and although technically illegal, did not rise to the "high crimes" standard. It was just some phony, meddling legislation passed by a pack of babbling idiots that had no business interfering with foreign policy. But I do think Nixon should have been impeached for obstruction of justice and abuse of power as they IMO most certainly did involve "high crimes". As the saying goes, the punishment must fit the crime.

Thanks for the compliment, Hawktown. One of the highest compliments anyone can pay another is that their objective.
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Re: If Obama was a white man......

Postby Hawktown » Mon Jun 16, 2014 9:50 pm

RiverDog wrote:
Hawktown wrote:[Unfortunately, there is ZERO way of voting our way out of this mess. If you can impeach a president for a BJ, then you should DAMN WELL want a president impeached for NOT FOLLOWING THE LAW.

If any president does ANYTHING ILLEGAL, he should be removed from his post IMMEDIATELY, and then tried for the offense and serve TWICE the punishment an everyday Joe would spend!!! The president should be held to higher standard but can get away with ANYTHING without punishment, I call BS!!! Past presidents should have been as well and ford should have not been able to pardon nixon either.


Clinton was not impeached for a BJ. He was impeached for perjury. I don't care if he was asked if he jacks off and said no and it was later proven that he did. A lie is a lie and perjury is perjury. Once you raise your hand and swear, it changes little white lies to perjured testimony. The only reason I have soften my position is that the courts did not pursue Clinton after he left office even though I thought they should have, so I yield to their judgment. Not knowing what I do know now, I still would have advocated impeachment and removal from office.

I do not believe a President should be impeached for ANY crime, only "high crimes". For example, I would not have wanted to impeach Reagan over Iran Contra because he circumvented Congress. It was a foreign policy struggle between the Executive and Legislative Branches and although technically illegal, did not rise to the "high crimes" standard. It was just some phony, meddling legislation passed by a pack of babbling idiots that had no business interfering with foreign policy. But I do think Nixon should have been impeached for obstruction of justice and abuse of power as they IMO most certainly did involve "high crimes". As the saying goes, the punishment must fit the crime.

Thanks for the compliment, Hawktown. One of the highest compliments anyone can pay another is that their objective.


I hear and understand your stance here RD. I would have to disagree though because how can you have a person who is to oversee that the country is run as the law says go and break the law without consequence no matter how little the crime. I personally think that is completely inexcusable.

I know clinton wasn't impeached for a BJ however, a BJ is a personal matter and not anything me or you should be worrying about, IMO, and does not affect me in any way what so ever. Unless he was getting a BJ instead of you know, protecting america when the call comes. Everyone deserves a little break.I don't think the courts needed to know about his extra curricular activities. Certainly they would not care if i was receiving or not nor would i let them know. I can see though how some may feel different about that situation and not want our president doing such thing in the oval office. I also see how some may think hypocrite in my this part of my belief system by saying that gov. officials should be held to a higher standard but i don't see a BJ as a crime.

I also think that MOST ALL issues should be voted on BY THE PEOPLE OF THE USA and not reps. People would feel like they are more in control of their environment and the ones who do not vote would really have zero excuse to complain when things do not go their way. At the same time more people would be informed on political issues.

Just an FYI RD, I think the compliment was from someone else but I too would not mind you on my jury. If that is the compliment you refer to. :)
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Re: If Obama was a white man......

Postby RiverDog » Tue Jun 17, 2014 3:58 am

Hawktown wrote:
RiverDog wrote:
Hawktown wrote:[Unfortunately, there is ZERO way of voting our way out of this mess. If you can impeach a president for a BJ, then you should DAMN WELL want a president impeached for NOT FOLLOWING THE LAW.

If any president does ANYTHING ILLEGAL, he should be removed from his post IMMEDIATELY, and then tried for the offense and serve TWICE the punishment an everyday Joe would spend!!! The president should be held to higher standard but can get away with ANYTHING without punishment, I call BS!!! Past presidents should have been as well and ford should have not been able to pardon nixon either.


Clinton was not impeached for a BJ. He was impeached for perjury. I don't care if he was asked if he jacks off and said no and it was later proven that he did. A lie is a lie and perjury is perjury. Once you raise your hand and swear, it changes little white lies to perjured testimony. The only reason I have soften my position is that the courts did not pursue Clinton after he left office even though I thought they should have, so I yield to their judgment. Not knowing what I do know now, I still would have advocated impeachment and removal from office.

I do not believe a President should be impeached for ANY crime, only "high crimes". For example, I would not have wanted to impeach Reagan over Iran Contra because he circumvented Congress. It was a foreign policy struggle between the Executive and Legislative Branches and although technically illegal, did not rise to the "high crimes" standard. It was just some phony, meddling legislation passed by a pack of babbling idiots that had no business interfering with foreign policy. But I do think Nixon should have been impeached for obstruction of justice and abuse of power as they IMO most certainly did involve "high crimes". As the saying goes, the punishment must fit the crime.

Thanks for the compliment, Hawktown. One of the highest compliments anyone can pay another is that their objective.


I hear and understand your stance here RD. I would have to disagree though because how can you have a person who is to oversee that the country is run as the law says go and break the law without consequence no matter how little the crime. I personally think that is completely inexcusable.

I know clinton wasn't impeached for a BJ however, a BJ is a personal matter and not anything me or you should be worrying about, IMO, and does not affect me in any way what so ever. Unless he was getting a BJ instead of you know, protecting america when the call comes. Everyone deserves a little break.I don't think the courts needed to know about his extra curricular activities. Certainly they would not care if i was receiving or not nor would i let them know. I can see though how some may feel different about that situation and not want our president doing such thing in the oval office. I also see how some may think hypocrite in my this part of my belief system by saying that gov. officials should be held to a higher standard but i don't see a BJ as a crime.

I also think that MOST ALL issues should be voted on BY THE PEOPLE OF THE USA and not reps. People would feel like they are more in control of their environment and the ones who do not vote would really have zero excuse to complain when things do not go their way. At the same time more people would be informed on political issues.

Just an FYI RD, I think the compliment was from someone else but I too would not mind you on my jury. If that is the compliment you refer to. :)


I'm not excusing a President for doing something illegal during the course of his administering of the executive branch. What we're talking about here is impeachable crimes, in other words, high crimes. Impeaching Obama for something like not informing Congress of the hostage exchange is IMO akin to giving one of us a 5 year sentence for going 70 mph in a 55. There are literally thousands of laws governing the actions of the President/Executive Branch, meaning it is almost inevitable that somewhere along the line, either the Prez or someone he is directly responsible for breaks a law. That doesn't mean they are to be excused. There are very powerful motivating factors by which the Prez, even a lame duck one like Obama, can be penalized by the American people if they break a law of some consequence. Personally I view laws that were broken that involved the retention of power or accumulation of personal wealth to be a much more serious crime than those that the Prez honestly felt were in the best interests of the country.

Richard Nixon wasn't protecting nuclear secrets when he ordered the CIA to use their power to force the FBI to drop the investigation into Watergate. He was using them to retain his own personal power. Bill Clinton wasn't trying to protect the life of an American POW when he lied under oath. He perjured himself in order to avoid personal embarrassment and protect his own personal legacy. Those are the types of crimes that I judge to be a little more serious than something like Reagan circumventing Congress to find ways to fund an anti communist group in a foreign country. Congress themselves are not authorized to interfere with foreign policy, rather found a way to substitute their judgement for that of the President's by circumventing the Constitution and used their control of the purse strings to influence foreign policy just like they do when they threaten the states with withdrawal of funding if the states don't pass legislation on matters that is constitutionally given to them, like a speed limit or DUI thresholds.
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Re: If Obama was a white man......

Postby c_hawkbob » Tue Jun 17, 2014 5:06 am

Actually Clinton wasn't impeached for anything, he served out his term.

We've still never had an impeached president; both Andrew Johnson and Bill Clinton, though impeached by the House, were acquitted in the Senate voting and Nixon resigned before his impeachment proceeding ever went to vote.
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