Religion & Sports

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Religion & Sports

Postby et69 » Tue Sep 30, 2014 9:26 am

The NFL says you can't show excessive celebration on the field BUT you can pray on the field ! ??? What BS! I for one and sick and tired of the hyper pseudo- patriotic and pseudo-religious crap that goes on during sports games. It's a GAME for Christ's sake or Mohammad's sake or Buddha's sake...(pardon the puns). Patriotism and religion are NOT a sporting event and if one is religious or patriotic then you ought to be offended that this junk is allowed to occur at such events.
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Re: Religion & Sports

Postby c_hawkbob » Tue Sep 30, 2014 9:40 am

Meh, it is what it is.

While I don't disagree with you It doesn't much bother me. Whether a player puts forth a public facade from Tim Tebow to Lyle Alzado doesn't matter to me nearly as much their play on the field and their conduct off of it.
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Re: Religion & Sports

Postby Hawktawk » Tue Sep 30, 2014 1:00 pm

Cant really comment on other faiths but Christians are encouraged to give God credit and praise for their successes. I think these believers in whatever faith see their status and visibility as a way to publicly acknowledge their faith. I have absolutely no problem with them doing that. What I hate is classless players grabbing their crotch, kissing their bodily parts,showing up opponents, dropping F bombs and showing up for press conferences in wife beaters with their hat on backwards. Not to mention beating their women and children.

In a league with so many bad actors in the news a show of gratitude and faith towards a higher power is the last thing fans should be worried about....
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Re: Religion & Sports

Postby RiverDog » Tue Sep 30, 2014 1:01 pm

et69 wrote:The NFL says you can't show excessive celebration on the field BUT you can pray on the field ! ??? What BS! I for one and sick and tired of the hyper pseudo- patriotic and pseudo-religious crap that goes on during sports games. It's a GAME for Christ's sake or Mohammad's sake or Buddha's sake...(pardon the puns). Patriotism and religion are NOT a sporting event and if one is religious or patriotic then you ought to be offended that this junk is allowed to occur at such events.


The operative word is "excessive". They've always allowed some degree of individual celebration, including religious gestures. I was in high school when the first true individual celebration artist, Kansas City wide receiver Elmo Wright, first started doing a touchdown dance, and I didn't much care for it then and I don't care for it now. I'd much rather a player simply hand the ball back to the ref, ala Russell Wilson and Steve Largent as I never did care much for a show off, but as CBob says, it is what it is.
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Re: Religion & Sports

Postby Seahawks4Ever » Wed Oct 01, 2014 10:59 am

The first player I remember doing a TD dance was Billy "white shoes" Johnson. I have to admit I got a kick out of it. But, by the time you had Icky Woods and the plethora of other players doing dances it got to be ridiculous. Remember the sack dance? I remember Raider (and former Husky) Dave Pear going into his sack dance and falling down, now that was funny! Then there was the Jets' New York Sack Exchange where the whole D-Line got involved, thank goodness the NFL out lawed that stuff.

That KC player Abdullah going on his knees to Allah didn't bother me, it was the 10 yard slide he did before he did his kneel that was wrong, and that is what he was flagged for. Yet, the NFL felt the need to say the penalty flag was wrong, go figure.
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Re: Religion & Sports

Postby c_hawkbob » Wed Oct 01, 2014 12:33 pm

Seahawks4Ever wrote: That KC player Abdullah going on his knees to Allah didn't bother me, it was the 10 yard slide he did before he did his kneel that was wrong, and that is what he was flagged for. Yet, the NFL felt the need to say the penalty flag was wrong, go figure.


Image

10 yards, 2 yards, whatever ...
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Re: Religion & Sports

Postby burrrton » Wed Oct 01, 2014 2:29 pm

Ok, I didn't even see this play- did he stay down there for an excessive amount of time or something?

Unless he stayed down there so long that it gets awkward, that seems pretty ridiculous to have penalized him.
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Re: Religion & Sports

Postby c_hawkbob » Wed Oct 01, 2014 4:41 pm

Not long at all:

Image
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Re: Religion & Sports

Postby burrrton » Wed Oct 01, 2014 5:51 pm

c_hawkbob wrote:Not long at all:


You gotta be kidding me. THAT'S what has everyone's panties in a wad??
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Re: Religion & Sports

Postby Hawktawk » Wed Oct 01, 2014 7:04 pm

Wow. It really is the No Fun League
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Re: Religion & Sports

Postby monkey » Thu Oct 02, 2014 10:03 pm

burrrton wrote:
You gotta be kidding me. THAT'S what has everyone's panties in a wad??


Exactly what I said the first time I saw it.
Seriously, the NFL has become so hyper worried about offending someone, they're making tons of stupid decisions which inevitably, offend people.
The irony is palpable.
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Re: Religion & Sports

Postby Seahawks4Ever » Fri Oct 03, 2014 11:49 am

Yeah, sliding 10 yards would have been a real accomplishment. I actually meant to say 10 feet which is closer to what his slide actually was. I had no problem with what he did I was only mentioned the slide because Abdullah himself and one of the officials said that was the reason for the flag.
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Re: Religion & Sports

Postby kalibane » Fri Oct 03, 2014 1:31 pm

No he wasn't being penalized for the slide... well maybe technically but they weren't differentiating between the slide and the prayer. The statement they made about penalizing for the slide was what us those in show biz call retconning. What you had happen was a ref who was just quick on the draw. As soon as he went to the ground he whipped out his flag assuming that it was a celebration.

If the refs really had the ability to differentiate though, once they saw his intent was to pray they would have just picked up the flag. They didn't... they got it wrong. The only real problem with it is if it would have affected the outcome of the game. Luckily the Patriots didn't show up and it didn't matter. Moving on...

I'm not sure why OP has such an issue with players expressing their religion. They aren't hurting you any and it's not for you to begin with.

That being said... bring celebrations back. They were fun. The only rule I agree with regarding celebrations is no props.

On another note does anyone remember who's celebration was so over the top that they felt the need to make going to the ground an excessive celebration which. I mean No Props came about due to Joe Horn. No taking off your helmet was thanks to Emmit Smith. No group celebrations was thanks to the Rams Bob and Weave. I can't remember why they started this one though.
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Re: Religion & Sports

Postby kalibane » Sat Oct 04, 2014 10:56 am

Nah this didn't have anything to do with it being a muslim display. The rule is that you can't go to the gound to celebrate. So as soon as he went to the ground they threw theh flag. Anyone thinking this was discimination against Islamists are either stupid or have an agenda.
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Re: Religion & Sports

Postby obiken » Sun Oct 05, 2014 10:23 pm

Kali is right it was the slide not the Prayer. I just have more respect for the guy that just spikes the ball and lines up for another one. Act like you've been there.
I don't believe white people are superior to blacks at all, but what is it with the black athlete that he has to go into a big production in sports after scoring.
We just lost to Arizona because our DE had to do a big happy dance after sacking the Wildcat QB. Come on, find another form of self expression like red hair.
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Re: Religion & Sports

Postby RiverDog » Mon Oct 06, 2014 3:56 am

kalibane wrote:Nah this didn't have anything to do with it being a muslim display. The rule is that you can't go to the gound to celebrate. So as soon as he went to the ground they threw theh flag. Anyone thinking this was discimination against Islamists are either stupid or have an agenda.


I never knew that. The NFL has more regulations on TD celebrations than a square dance.

Actually my favorite TD celebration was when Randy Moss gave the Packer faithful a fake moon. Once I heard the story behind it, ie that the Packer fans routinely moon the visiting team bus when they arrive at the stadium, I thought it was hilarious.
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Re: Religion & Sports

Postby c_hawkbob » Mon Oct 06, 2014 5:25 am

kalibane wrote:Nah this didn't have anything to do with it being a muslim display. The rule is that you can't go to the gound to celebrate. So as soon as he went to the ground they threw theh flag. Anyone thinking this was discimination against Islamists are either stupid or have an agenda.


Yup:

TAUNTING
(c) The use of baiting or taunting acts or words that engender ill will between teams.
(d) Individual players involved in prolonged or excessive celebrations. Players are prohibited from
engaging in any celebrations while on the ground
. A celebration shall be deemed excessive or
prolonged if a player continues to celebrate after a warning from an official.
(e) Two-or-more players engage in prolonged, excessive, premeditated, or choreographed celebrations.
(f) Possession or use of foreign or extraneous object(s) that are not part of the uniform during the game
on the field or the sideline, or using the ball as a prop.


But there is an exception for praying:

The refs flagged the 29-year-old veteran for dropping to his knees after the play, technically a violation of the league’s celebration rules. But it was rather apparent that Abdullah, a devout Muslim, was practicing the Sajdah, a religious prayer.

As former NFL referee Mike Pereira pointed out last season, going to one’s knees to give praise is exempt from that enforcement.


http://ftw.usatoday.com/2014/09/husain- ... elebration
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Re: Religion & Sports

Postby kalibane » Mon Oct 06, 2014 6:36 am

obiken wrote: but what is it with the black athlete that he has to go into a big production in sports after scoring.


Black players dominate the NFL period but especially the RB and WR positions. Those are the guys who score most of the TDs. Thus you see more black guys celebrating. Gronk makes just as much of a production out of his spike. There is the Aaron Rodgers championship belt. While not as ritualistic, Brett Farve would sprint 40 yards down the field to celebrate after he threw a TD pass. And of course Mark Gastineau is probably the main reason why the NFL started cracking down on celebrations in the first place.

Do you remember those insane TD celebrations by AJ Green, Julio Jones, Andre Johnson, Demaryius Thomas, Adrian Peterson, Arian Foster, Frank Gore, Eddy Lacy, Matt Forte and Jamal Charles? Yeah neither do I. It has to do with the individual personality of the player not race.

We just lost to Arizona because our DE had to do a big happy dance after sacking the Wildcat QB. Come on, find another form of self expression like red hair.


IMO Your bigger issue should be with a penalty that had nothing to do with gaining an unfair advantage on the field turning the entire outcome of a game because some 21 year old hopped up on adrenaline had a brief moment of joy over an enormous play.
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Re: Religion & Sports

Postby RiverDog » Tue Oct 07, 2014 4:56 am

kalibane wrote:Black players dominate the NFL period but especially the RB and WR positions. Those are the guys who score most of the TDs. Thus you see more black guys celebrating. Gronk makes just as much of a production out of his spike. There is the Aaron Rodgers championship belt. While not as ritualistic, Brett Farve would sprint 40 yards down the field to celebrate after he threw a TD pass. And of course Mark Gastineau is probably the main reason why the NFL started cracking down on celebrations in the first place.


The TD celebrations reach back to the late 60's-early 70's. Elmo Wright, Kansas City wide receiver, was the first to my recollection to start dancing, and it occurred during a time when blacks were not dominant at skill positions or anywhere else on the field. Blacks have always had more 'rhythm', more musical, and more willing to break social mores than their white counterparts who tended to be more conformist. Whites, in particular younger whites, copied them, and not just on the football field, but in music and dance as well. The TD celebrations used to bother me, but less so anymore. What I have still failed to accept is players celebrating first downs when their team is behind by 4 TD's or a tackle 20 yards downfield.

Not sure about the league starting their crackdown because of Gastineau. I know they didn't like Icky Woods' routine and really got real serious when the Fun Bunch started group celebrations.
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Re: Religion & Sports

Postby kalibane » Tue Oct 07, 2014 5:33 am

Those are stereotypes River. That might have been true (the willing to break social mores thing) in the 1970's where a bunch of the black players were fresh off the civil rights movement. But that's still a complete shot in the dark at trying to explain what you're seeing. One black player in the 1970's did it so it's a black thing?

These generations playing 45 years later have no real link to that generation. It's a completely different mindset. Most of them don't even know when the Civil Rights era was. Every one of the players today was raised in a "look at me" reality TV, social media atmosphere. And that's what we're talking about, this generation of players.

Aaron Rodgers and JJ Watt aren't taking their cues from black players. Nothing about them off the the field has anything to do with copying black players. In fact they are pretty much opposites of the stereotypes of "black culture". Aaron Rodgers is a California boy into Country Music and Gronk is a walking "bro" stereotype that you could make into an SNL skit. That's who they are. But you would have me believe that in this one teeny tiny little aspect of their lives, it's the one thing they saw from black people and were like "yeah I'm going to do that". Makes no sense.

I don't know how you remember the Fun Bunch as being infamous but don't remember Gastineau's sack dance. ESPN Classic did a special on Gastineau called "Lord of the Dance". An excerpt from the synopsis: "In large part because of Gastineau's sack-dance antics, the NFL adopted a rule the following March banning such celebrations."

I've always been a fan of endzone celebrations. But like you I despise the celebrating after a first down or a tackle on 2nd down stuff that is routine.
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Re: Religion & Sports

Postby RiverDog » Tue Oct 07, 2014 6:11 am

kalibane wrote:Those are stereotypes River. That might have been true (the willing to break social mores thing) in the 1970's where a bunch of the black players were fresh off the civil rights movement. But that's still a complete shot in the dark at trying to explain what you're seeing. One black player in the 1970's did it so it's a black thing?

These generations playing 45 years later have no real link to that generation. It's a completely different mindset. Most of them don't even know when the Civil Rights era was. Every one of the players today was raised in a "look at me" reality TV, social media atmosphere. And that's what we're talking about, this generation of players.

Aaron Rodgers and JJ Watt aren't taking their cues from black players. Nothing about them off the the field has anything to do with copying black players. In fact they are pretty much opposites of the stereotypes of "black culture". Aaron Rodgers is a California boy into Country Music and Gronk is a walking "bro" stereotype that you could make into an SNL skit. That's who they are. But you would have me believe that in this one teeny tiny little aspect of their lives, it's the one thing they saw from black people and were like "yeah I'm going to do that". Makes no sense.

I don't know how you remember the Fun Bunch as being infamous but don't remember Gastineau's sack dance. ESPN Classic did a special on Gastineau called "Lord of the Dance". An excerpt from the synopsis: "In large part because of Gastineau's sack-dance antics, the NFL adopted a rule the following March banning such celebrations."

I've always been a fan of endzone celebrations. But like you I despise the celebrating after a first down or a tackle on 2nd down stuff that is routine.


I wasn't arguing about what the celebrations are today. I was speaking of their genesis. I agree with you that modern whites are not necessarily taking their queues from blacks. But I do think that it still holds true that blacks, in general, are more willing to break through social mores and establish new norms than are whites. Music, for example. What color were the first rap artists, or hip hop artists? Or who started wearing baseball hats backwards? Or baggy pants? For whatever reasons, blacks are the trend setters and whites are the copy cats.
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Re: Religion & Sports

Postby kalibane » Tue Oct 07, 2014 7:47 am

Still disagree. I don't see anything about Rap and Baggy Jeans that is more counter culture than Grunge, Tattoos and Body Piercing.

I disagree that backwards hats came out of the back community though or is even really counter culture. Baseball players have been donning their caps backwards forever as "rally caps". I remember it became a ridiculous talking point when Griffey Jr. was warming up with a backwards cap. But people were wearing them backwards well before Griffey came on the scene. If anything, in my youth it was something I associated with frat boys.
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Re: Religion & Sports

Postby RiverDog » Tue Oct 07, 2014 7:57 pm

kalibane wrote:Still disagree. I don't see anything about Rap and Baggy Jeans that is more counter culture than Grunge, Tattoos and Body Piercing.

I disagree that backwards hats came out of the back community though or is even really counter culture. Baseball players have been donning their caps backwards forever as "rally caps". I remember it became a ridiculous talking point when Griffey Jr. was warming up with a backwards cap. But people were wearing them backwards well before Griffey came on the scene. If anything, in my youth it was something I associated with frat boys.


Neither one of us can prove or disprove each other's assertions.

Perhaps it's my own bias that effects my judgment, but it sure seems to me that considering the percentage of the total population of the country that blacks make up, that they enjoy a disproportional number of deviances from the norm compared to the other 90 or so percent. I'm not at all saying that's a bad thing, simply that blacks are less likely to conform to generally accepted customs than are whites.
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Re: Religion & Sports

Postby Seahawks4Ever » Mon Oct 13, 2014 11:38 am

Baggy jeans are one thing, sagging is quite another. I honestly thought that sagging would go the way of 99.9% of most fads, forgotten in a few short years. I was wrong by a long shot. I tell you nothing looks more ridiculous than witnessing a man between 40-50 years of age "sagging". I mean, grow up already. It just isn't just black men sagging either, there are lots of guys from teenagers on up of all races who perpetuate this sagging way of wearing pants.

A nephew of mine had to be chewed out and sent home to change (he was 19) at his beloved Grandfathers funeral. He had to be told that it was supremely disrespectful of the memory of his GF by wearing his jeans that way to pay his "respects". This was a man whom he idolized and looked up to his entire life and was there for him when his dead beat father never was. He complained at first and talked about his "rights" but he was told it was about his respect for his grandfather and nothing to do with his rights. He went home and changed, grudgingly, but he did do it.

The other day at the mall I saw a man with salt & pepper hair who had to be at least in his late 40's but more likely in his 50's to low 60's and there he was shopping with what looked like to be one of his own grown children and all three generations of boys were sagging. This guy looked like he had too old to get caught up in the sagging fad when he was younger, I mean I myself was in my 30's when sagging became a fad and I wasn't going to dress like a teenager. But, I guess some people just want to look and act younger than they are.

A sister in law of mine (RIP) dressed like a teeny bopper or early 20 something well in to her 40's and she did NOT have the body to even remotely carry it off. Skin tight stretch pants over a very wide screen booty? Really? Plunging neckline with her DD's about ready to fall out on to the floor? Garrish make-up, tattoos, and piercings? Her grown children tried to tell her how pathetic she looked but her husband (she had been a widow) liked the way she dressed and that was enough for her. Thankfully as she got older she toned it down and a few years before her death she started dressing appropriately, unfortunately cancer took her and broke everyone's heart because she did have a heart of gold and thought of everybody instead of herself.
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