School Shootings

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School Shootings

Postby mykc14 » Sat Oct 25, 2014 12:01 am

Many of you have probably read about the most recent school shooting, this time in our own state. As a teacher my hear goes out to the victims of this sensless act of violence but also to the shooter a 14 year old who thought his only choice was to end his life and that of his close friends (early reports suggsest that he targeted a specific table of his friends) over an infatuation with a girl (again early reported motive was a girl who had recently turned him down). I got into education to make a difference in the lives of those I have taught and coached, but news like this is like a shot across my bow, causing me to re-evalute my role in the lives of our youth. I am challenged. Am I doing enough? I don't know but the question haunts me at night and days like today only make it worse. It is hard and different to grow up in todays society. The internet and social media in general are all areas that allow for students to be bullied or pressured differently than past generations. I don't know the answer but I feel overwhelmed. I know this is just an internet website created to discuss the Hawks (thanks Yoder, your the man!), but at the same time I feel like we have a unique set of individuals with all types of backgrounds, beliefs, and life situations. This is our future. What are we doing to protect it (not you guys specifically, but as a society in general, speaking of focus of schools, prevention of incidents, legislation, etc). I am just having a tough time with this and even though I don't post a ton you are like a 3rd or 4h family to me (first is my actual family at home, lovely wife and 3 amazing kids, 2nd is my community/close friends; again supper supportive and amazing. And then there is you guys/girls; an amazing group of individuals who have been brought together by our shared love of the Seahawks. At the same time this is the most diverse of my support groups being that you don't really know me from any other Seahawk fan and constitue a diverse group of individuals without shared geographical or political backgrounds). I don't know what the point of this post is (actually I have deleted it twice and this is probably the worst of the three, but o'well) except to ask for your prays/good thoughts towards those victims of today's shootings. And to ask for your input as to what we should do as a society about these events. I am always looking for a fresh perspecitive.
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Re: School Shootings

Postby Hawktawk » Sun Oct 26, 2014 5:45 am

I feel your sadness. Living in Moses Lake we were victims of the first well known school shooting when Barry Loukitus gunned down several classmates and a teacher. He was a troubled kid with a bad family history. I was too, "bullied"(we called it being picked on)abused by my father etc. I had learning disabilities. And I had easy access to guns as i hunted deer, birds and small game. But I never considered killing anyone.
I'm afraid that nowadays the media makes celebrities out of these killers. To me its irresponsible to plaster their faces, their life stories on the media. Some other kid who had a nasty breakup goes HMMMM, And a teen mind doesn't have the common sense to avoid a bad decision in the heat of passion or anger sometimes.

And our society teaches that you dont have to be tough and resilient anymore. Its all someone else s fault. If something makes you mad it isn't fair. I know that may be an oversimplification but I just feel that this last couple of generations has developed these beliefs because we as a society have allowed them to. We need to educate the value of life, tolerance and respect for other peoples choices,the work ethic and drive to succeed into these kids so they can have a hope for the future.
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Re: School Shootings

Postby RiverDog » Sun Oct 26, 2014 6:28 am

I wouldn't have objected had you started this thread in the main forum.

I lived in Moses Lake for 11 years just prior to the shootings Hawktalk is speaking of, and my daughter eventually attended that same middle school, and I know very well where Marysville is, so these school shootings aren't just some random news event in some no name town I've never heard of. It's also a reminder as to how long we've been dealing with this as that event had to have occurred close to 25 years ago. Obviously I share the grief and horror that the majority of us good folks in this forum do in these moments and I'll join others in offering my thoughts and prayers for the friends and families of the victims. Like everyone else, I am dumbfounded as to why this has to happen.

The reaction to this latest shooting is predictable. The pols will be running to the microphone with new laws that they think will solve the problem, laws on gun control, laws on bullying, laws requiring schools to have metal detectors, et al. It will not prevent this from happening again. It's a symptom of our present society. Guns and bullying have been around far longer than school shootings. They are not the cause. Something else is at work.

I hate to say it at a time like this while people are still in shock and mourning the loss of friends and loved ones, but this is part of the price we have to pay for our freedom. Those kids gave their lives for that principle no less than any soldier on a battlefield in any conflict this country has ever fought, and we should honor them as heroes to the advancement of that cause. I'm not saying that we shouldn't be doing those things that seem reasonable or practical, but nor do I want to live in a police state.
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Re: School Shootings

Postby c_hawkbob » Sun Oct 26, 2014 7:59 am

This forum is quite specifically for threads just like this one. The main forum should be football, threads get shuffled of of page one fast enough without all the OT threads.

Having lived 10 years in Colorado I'm sensitive to all school shootings and having played Pilchuck in HS football I'm particularly touched by this one. Although I must say I'm no more horrified than by incidences in Russia or Australia too. Tragedies involving children or teenagers just beginning their lives are always the most tragic, and none of us are immune from them. I don't care how small or isolated or close a community you live in there can always be a maladjusted youth nearby who feels the need to takes his personal injustices out on those around him (or her). And in this day and age of instant news where Dylan Klebold and Eric Harris are household names due to the never ending news cycle and hyper competition to break the news first and always be the most recent to have broken the latest gruesome details there will always be those as well that want to be the next 'tortured soul' to become famous in such a manner. Even the smallest of communities have the internet.
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Re: School Shootings

Postby Seahawks4Ever » Mon Oct 27, 2014 10:35 am

Marysville-Pilchuck HS was my grandmother's alma mater, most of my father's family is from there and my stepson and his family lives there now. My uncle used to be the jailer in Marysville back in the '60's it was such a small town they only had two cells, a regular one and the drunk tank. My aunt and uncle lived upstairs and it was a lot like Mayberry in that they prisoners received home cooking. It was a small town then and even though it has grown a lot since those days it is still very much a close knit community. Just "up the road" is Arlington and Darrington where that terrible mudslide was and now this tragedy.

Kids in their teens just don't realize that what they think is a huge problem in their life (unrequited love) will be understood to be very small potatoes in a few years. Everything is magnified to the enth degree for the teeanager, I know that I was a mess in my early teen years I don't know how I made it through. When I look back I can't believe I put such importance on what turned out to be pretty trivial in the grand scheme of things.

It is too bad that no one knew he was in crisis, friends said the day before at football practice he was happy, listening to music and dancing. It turns out though the his anger at being turned down by the girl had been festering for a while, but no one knew he would just decide to kill. Sad, so sad.
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Re: School Shootings

Postby Eaglehawk » Wed Nov 05, 2014 10:10 am

Yeah, man. More gun control in WA. River you were absolutely right.
One good thing, we have some of the best legal minds in the country in Seattle. I hope they can bring something to the Supreme Court of Washington that can fix what the billionaires just paid so much money to limit gun rights.
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Re: School Shootings

Postby Largent80 » Tue Mar 06, 2018 12:24 pm

And here we are 4 years later and ZERO...as in NOTHING has been done.
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Re: School Shootings

Postby burrrton » Tue Mar 06, 2018 2:14 pm

Largent80 wrote:And here we are 4 years later and ZERO...as in NOTHING has been done.


Tell everyone the law you'd have passed that would have stopped, say, Adam Lanza.

Also, as long as we're digging up the past and you felt compelled to slander millions of law-abiding citizens, I'm still waiting on an answer to a direct question:

Also, what do they [the NRA] support that isn't "kids in school friendly"'?
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Re: School Shootings

Postby RiverDog » Tue Mar 06, 2018 4:19 pm

Largent80 wrote:And here we are 4 years later and ZERO...as in NOTHING has been done.


I wouldn't say that "nothing" has been done. Just here locally, there have been several incidents where cops intervened and may have prevented another school shooting. They're not going to make the same mistakes that they made in Florida.

We're at the point now where these shootings have taken on a life of their own as these f### upped kids are copying each other. I'm afraid that we're going to be dealing with this problem for a long time to come.
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Re: School Shootings

Postby Largent80 » Thu Mar 08, 2018 7:29 am

In the last 4 years, tell me "what has been done". And also it's impact on the gun buying/owning community, and also how it has helped to curb the senseless violence. Not really sure how I slandered millions of people by asking a simple question, but ok. :roll:

AND, the NRA wants AR-15's to be sold, therefore "not kids in school friendly".
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Re: School Shootings

Postby burrrton » Thu Mar 08, 2018 8:52 am

Not really sure how I slandered millions of people by asking a simple question, but ok.


You implied the NRA has blood on its hands, largent- if you can't see how that slanders its millions of members (to say nothing of the millions more who support its mission), that says volumes about you.

AND, the NRA wants AR-15's to be sold, therefore "not kids in school friendly".


That's what I thought. Thanks.

Disagreeing with your incoherent position on how best to make schools safer isn't 'not being friendly' to them. Someone could easily turn that around and say "You don't want kids protected with armed security when they're at school, therefore you don't mind them being killed."

Despite our disagreement, I'd call that unfair to you, and just because the NRA doesn't want to arbitrarily outlaw some rifle based on its looks, that doesn't mean they aren't 'friendly' to kids.
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Re: School Shootings

Postby Largent80 » Sat Mar 10, 2018 6:46 pm

Whatever. Nothing has been done in the 4 years since this thread started and THAT is exactly what I said.

Guns need to be kept out of schools, period.
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Re: School Shootings

Postby burrrton » Sun Mar 11, 2018 11:05 am

Whatever.


Exactly.

Nothing has been done in the 4 years since this thread started and THAT is exactly what I said.


And in response, I asked you what law you'd have passed (what you'd have "done") to stop a recent school shooter.

Guns need to be kept out of schools, period.


They're "gun free zones" now, and that hasn't helped an iota. If you've got an effective law in mind, share it and we can discuss.

[edit]

Look, I know we go at each other regularly, but I'm not trying to just bust your chops. I honestly think this discussion is instructive in how complex and difficult this situation is to even improve noticeably, let alone solve.
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Re: School Shootings

Postby RiverDog » Sun Mar 11, 2018 1:03 pm

I'll throw out a suggestion just for the hell of it. We can pass a law that allows teachers and other school employees to carry firearms in the classrooms, subject to a lot of requirements, such as being qualified, always having it on their person and not in a desk drawer, keeping it concealed, etc. Some school districts already permit it.
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Re: School Shootings

Postby burrrton » Sun Mar 11, 2018 1:24 pm

Some school districts already permit it.


*Many* do, in fact. No new laws required.

And yeah, this is an idea that seems inarguably good to me (assuming the caveats you mention), but I suspect some around here don't have this in mind when talking about changes they want.
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Re: School Shootings

Postby Old but Slow » Mon Mar 12, 2018 11:16 pm

Big concern. As a policeman entering a shooting zone, who do you center upon? Anyone with a gun. Teacher, custodian, shooter? How do you choose?
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Re: School Shootings

Postby RiverDog » Tue Mar 13, 2018 3:55 am

Old but Slow wrote:Big concern. As a policeman entering a shooting zone, who do you center upon? Anyone with a gun. Teacher, custodian, shooter? How do you choose?


I've taken several active shooter training classes at my work place. The shooter's objective is to kill as many people and create as much mayhem as he or they can in the limited amount of time they know that they have available. Therefore, the shooter will be in a position to view as many targets as possible, in the center or front of the room, upright and in the clear. They won't be stealthy or stalking like a person trying to ambush the shooter would. Basically the shooter would be acting like The Terminator, going from room-to-room, building-to-building looking for additional targets. They would be fairly easy to distinguish from a teacher or custodian.

Obviously there's going to be a risk of friendly fire casualties if anyone, police and SWAT team included, encounters a densely populated confined space looking to confront an active shooter. But IMO that risk is far outweighed by the risk of additional casulties if the shooter is allowed to continue unimpeded for a longer period of time rather than being confronted early on by an armed teacher or school employee.

Prior to Columbine, the strategy in an active shooter situation was to do exactly what the officer in Florida did, ie take up a position of cover and wait for an opportunity, and/or approach by stealth. Active shooter scenarios used to be like the U of Texas tower shooter, Charles Whitman, firing from a concealed, isolated location. But since Columbine, the strategy has changed and is now to storm the shooter as quickly and forcefully as possible, for anyone armed to go inside the building immediately and confront the shooter by any means they have available, posing a greater friendly fire risk to both the unarmed students and the armed police/SWAT teams, in order to limit the amout of time the shooter has available and save as many lives as possible.
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Re: School Shootings

Postby Aseahawkfan » Tue Mar 13, 2018 5:13 pm

Old but Slow wrote:Big concern. As a policeman entering a shooting zone, who do you center upon? Anyone with a gun. Teacher, custodian, shooter? How do you choose?


Does it matter at that point? Whoever can stop the shooter needs to do so as fast as possible. Is it better for everyone at the school to be unarmed so the police can tell who to shoot while they have no defense from the guy looking to massacre as many of them as possible?

I just wonder if you put yourself in that scenario, what would you prefer to be? Some person hunkering down waiting for the cops to arrive while some maniac is slaughtering people with a gun or a guy with a weapon with some chance of stopping this maniac? I always feel as though I want to be the guy that has some chance of taking down the sick psychopath.

I always hear these strange arguments by people bringing up statistics that people with guns haven't been able to stop other people with guns. When I read the statistics they pull from, I see that their haven't been many situations where people with guns have had the chance. And these active shooters tend to target areas where people are unarmed and I believe they do so for a reason: easy prey. Why would some active shooter target a place where he knows he's going to get taken out quickly?

Even though these active shooter situations get blown up by the press, they are extremely rare. So rare that it's difficult to get an exact handle on how to reduce them when they are already so rare. We have 320 million plus people. How do we stop the occasional madman from going on a rampage? How do we find that needle in the haystack without removing rights from the 99.99999999999999% of responsible people? It's a hard question.
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Re: School Shootings

Postby burrrton » Tue Mar 20, 2018 10:22 am

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Re: School Shootings

Postby c_hawkbob » Tue Mar 20, 2018 11:53 am

OK I'll comment; it's a good thing that there was an armed campus Marshall at that school (arming teachers is a stupid idea, but I am all for armed security officers). It's a good thing that he had the stones to pursue and address the shooter unlike one at the Florida school. It's a good thing that the only fatality was the shooter.

Other than that everything about this story is just sad.
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Re: School Shootings

Postby RiverDog » Tue Mar 20, 2018 12:51 pm

FYI there were two students critically wounded, so we're not out of the woods yet regarding fatalities other than the shooter.

Honest question: What's the difference between an armed security guard and an armed teacher with exactly the same degree of training and proficiency as the armed security guard? Is it the fact that one wears a uniform and the other one doesn't? The fact that the weapon is in the classroom instead of the hallway or courtyard?

I'd really like to hear a rational argument as to why it's such a bad idea for a teacher that has been well trained and certified to carry a firearm to be allowed to carry a firearm on campus and in the classroom.

One can only hope that this latest incident might deter other would be shooters. Although it won't stop many of the suicidal shooters, some may be influenced by the fact that they won't be having a shooting gallery orgy within a bunch of defenseless sheep.
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Re: School Shootings

Postby burrrton » Tue Mar 20, 2018 1:38 pm

OK I'll comment; it's a good thing that there was an armed campus Marshall at that school (arming teachers is a stupid idea, but I am all for armed security officers).


Why is it a stupid idea? The proposal isn't to issue a handgun to every 22yo kindergarten teacher, show them where the trigger is, and say "GO GET 'EM!"- it's to allow them to carry if they choose to and are properly trained (which would likely be just as much or more than that guard, if the CCP people I know are any indication).

Other than that everything about this story is just sad.


I think the *only* sad thing about it is the two wounded children (who I pray will survive). One dead murderous piece of sh*t and one more thing for the next prospective animal to ponder before he decides to shoot up a school (or anyplace).
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Re: School Shootings

Postby c_hawkbob » Tue Mar 20, 2018 1:58 pm

It's a teachers job to interact with kids all day every day, their can be a lot of stress associated with that. And Kids are button pushers; once they find the button that gets you going they can push that button until you've reached your limit. Armed guards on the other hand are designated security, it's much easier for them to concentrate on maintaining a secure environment while the teachers are able to maintain a nurturing environment conducive to a child being able to learn something.

It would only take one incident of a teacher getting fed up with a classroom and walking out the door for a breather not remembering they'd left their gun unattended to or worse yet reaching a breaking point and going off the deep end and wind up shooting up their own classroom ...

Teachers are underpaid and overworked as it is, the very lives of their students doesn't need to be added to the burden they already bear.
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Re: School Shootings

Postby burrrton » Tue Mar 20, 2018 2:29 pm

It would only take one incident of a teacher getting fed up with a classroom and walking out the door for a breather not remembering they'd left their gun unattended to or worse yet reaching a breaking point and going off the deep end and wind up shooting up their own classroom ...


Bob, you have *got* to be kidding me. Leaving aside that no proposal allows for a teacher to leave the gun unattended and/or not on their person, that is the most ridiculous 'what if' I've ever read.

Teachers are underpaid and overworked as it is, the very lives of their students doesn't need to be added to the burden they already bear.


It's a *choice*, not a requirement, and you have this weird idea that carrying a firearm is some kind of extra stressor to experienced users- it isn't.
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Re: School Shootings

Postby Aseahawkfan » Tue Mar 20, 2018 3:27 pm

The teacher could have it for their defense as well. Teachers have families as well as the kids they teach. It wouldn't be a bad thing for a teacher to be able to protect themselves as well. They are as much the target of violence as the kids. This isn't something being forced on the teachers. No one should be forced to carry a firearm. At the same time, this is an unpredictable world. Your life can be threatened at the drop of a dime by a criminal or deranged person. Is it better to try to call the police and wait for them to fix it while you and yours get massacred or have some chance of protecting yourself?

No one bothers a person that learns to fix their car and carries the tools to do so should their car break down. No one bothers a person that prepares for a natural disaster and buys all the extra food, water, and survival gear. No one bothers a guy that learns to fix his computer. Once a person wants to protect their life and learn how to use a gun or similar weapon to do so, people fear that person. It's this same type mentality that leads to people being oppressed and victimized. Once a person feels the only person that can protect their life in a dangerous,stressful situation is some government official, that people has lost all power and courage. They are a mob of powerless victims hoping and looking elsewhere for someone with real power to do something to fix things. Tyrants, psychopaths, and criminals rely on this victim mentality. This is exactly the type of mentality the 2nd Amendment was created to change in the American people.

The American people are supposed to be the type of people that a tyrant, psycho, or criminal fears to target because he doesn't know who will challenge him and kill him should he do so. I would like America to become a nation where a man with a gun fears to enter the grocery store to do harm because a grandma might pull out her handgun and gun him down. I know we'll likely never have it this way, but it's preferable to becoming a nation so dependent on government intervention they don't know how to pull their zipper down and piss without a government attendant in the bathroom to help them.
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Re: School Shootings

Postby RiverDog » Tue Mar 20, 2018 3:46 pm

c_hawkbob wrote:It's a teachers job to interact with kids all day every day, their can be a lot of stress associated with that. And Kids are button pushers; once they find the button that gets you going they can push that button until you've reached your limit. Armed guards on the other hand are designated security, it's much easier for them to concentrate on maintaining a secure environment while the teachers are able to maintain a nurturing environment conducive to a child being able to learn something.

It would only take one incident of a teacher getting fed up with a classroom and walking out the door for a breather not remembering they'd left their gun unattended to or worse yet reaching a breaking point and going off the deep end and wind up shooting up their own classroom ...

Teachers are underpaid and overworked as it is, the very lives of their students doesn't need to be added to the burden they already bear.


I can understand your concern over a teacher leaving their weapon unattended, which IMO is a legitimate concern, and if it were up to me, I would insist on strict zero tolerance rules regarding not leaving the weapon or ammo unattended without being in a secure place like a locked desk drawer or locker. It's the same policy that LE and armed security guards have, and you don't hear too much about their weapons getting lost or stolen.

But I don't agree with your "psycho teacher" concern. That's one I haven't heard of anywhere in any discussion about the subject, and quite frankly, I'm surprised that a rational person like yourself would suggest such an off the wall, fantastic scenario like that.

And as both burrton and ASF have pointed out, this would be a choice, both by the teachers/employees that volunteer to carry a weapon and by their local school district, not a requirement. If enough of the parents had concerns about teachers packing heat, they can pressure their elected school board members to rescind the policy. It's simply one tool that should be made available.
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Re: School Shootings

Postby MackStrongIsMyHero » Sun Mar 25, 2018 1:24 pm

In response to the shooting, Majory Stoneman Douglas High School is requiring all students to be using clear backpacks once they return from Spring Break. The fearless Daniel Hogg is decrying the move as an infringement on a student's constitutional rights, specifically the 1st and 4th Amendments.

The kid is reaching. 1st amendment, no, absolutely not. There's no constitutional protection for you to have the navy blue L.L. Bean backpack you so desperately need. As for the 4th, I'd argue this isn't unreasonable Perfect gun laws that stop every conceivable instance of someone getting a gun that shouldn't can't be legislated, now matter how hard they try. This also isn't limited to guns. People could reach for all sorts of things that could hurt or kill other students other than a gun. Caustic liquids, homemade bombs, knives, poison, etc..

It's funny that they want gun laws that will snuff out any chance for these low-probability events at the expense of the 2nd Amendment, but then get upset that administrators come up with an additional solution that also will help prevent school violence at the expense of the 4th amendment. Price of any measure of security is always a measure of freedom.

And for the record, I'm for tighter gun laws that restrict to responsible, stable, law-abiding citizens.
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Re: School Shootings

Postby RiverDog » Sun Mar 25, 2018 2:55 pm

Every day, there are 9 people killed by distracted drivers, and teenagers are the worst offenders:

In fact, in many studies, teens are shown to suffer the highest fatality rate caused by distracted driving compared to other age groups.

https://www.dmv.org/distracted-driving/ ... riving.php

I've also seen articles that when surveyed, teenagers are more likely to feel that there is nothing wrong with texting while driving, that doing so does not impact their ability to operate a car safely.

So, if I were to say something to the teenagers that are protesting gun violence, I would say that you're making a good point about gun control, but why stop there? Let's ban all teenagers from having both a cell phone and a drivers license until they are 21.
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Re: School Shootings

Postby Largent80 » Sun Mar 25, 2018 3:08 pm

I think it's awesome that over 2 million people hit the streets yesterday to protest. And those votes are going to be loud and clear in the upcoming elections.

Kudos to all those kids and even adults, and some celebrities.
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Re: School Shootings

Postby burrrton » Sun Mar 25, 2018 3:39 pm

Would have been better if they had any actual solutions to propose. "IF YOU OWN A GUN UR A MURDERAR" doesn't really resonate, and I bet it steels the other side more than it motivates whatever % feel the same.
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Re: School Shootings

Postby Old but Slow » Mon Mar 26, 2018 1:15 am

The discussion is becoming rather disjointed. But, when has it not been. I don't want anyone to come for my guns, but I don't want to have gun laws that allows any yahoo to buy one. My basic career was in mental health, and there was a wealth of folks that I would prefer that didn't have guns.

While I may be an opinion of one, I do not see firearms as an home protection necessity. Guns are for hunting, food acquisition, and pest control. Modern tech gives a wealth of ways to protect out homes. Guns in those situations usually bring tragedy.

Come get me, Burrrton.
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Re: School Shootings

Postby c_hawkbob » Mon Mar 26, 2018 4:12 am

burrrton wrote:Would have been better if they had any actual solutions to propose. "IF YOU OWN A GUN UR A MURDERAR" doesn't really resonate, and I bet it steels the other side more than it motivates whatever % feel the same.


That's not hyperbolic at all ... I've never heard that or even seen in written other than as pure hyperbole. Trying to scare stupid gun owners (I'm a gun owner, we're not all stupid) into believing that anything anyone says about "gun control" = them "comin' to git yer guns!"
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Re: School Shootings

Postby Largent80 » Mon Mar 26, 2018 5:16 am

burrrton wrote:Would have been better if they had any actual solutions to propose. "IF YOU OWN A GUN UR A MURDERAR" doesn't really resonate, and I bet it steels the other side more than it motivates whatever % feel the same.


Isn't that what congress is for????..... The protests were about kids not wanting anymore shootings at school or anywhere else for that matter.

The problem is almost all of GOP candidates get huge contributions from the NRA and there were hundreds of people at these rallies signing people up to vote, and those people are going to be our future and will get rid of this BS.
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Re: School Shootings

Postby c_hawkbob » Mon Mar 26, 2018 5:30 am

There are plenty of candidates on both sides of the aisle taking that NRA money.
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Re: School Shootings

Postby RiverDog » Mon Mar 26, 2018 5:36 am

MackStrongIsMyHero wrote:In response to the shooting, Majory Stoneman Douglas High School is requiring all students to be using clear backpacks once they return from Spring Break. The fearless Daniel Hogg is decrying the move as an infringement on a student's constitutional rights, specifically the 1st and 4th Amendments.

The kid is reaching. 1st amendment, no, absolutely not. There's no constitutional protection for you to have the navy blue L.L. Bean backpack you so desperately need. As for the 4th, I'd argue this isn't unreasonable Perfect gun laws that stop every conceivable instance of someone getting a gun that shouldn't can't be legislated, now matter how hard they try. This also isn't limited to guns. People could reach for all sorts of things that could hurt or kill other students other than a gun. Caustic liquids, homemade bombs, knives, poison, etc..

It's funny that they want gun laws that will snuff out any chance for these low-probability events at the expense of the 2nd Amendment, but then get upset that administrators come up with an additional solution that also will help prevent school violence at the expense of the 4th amendment. Price of any measure of security is always a measure of freedom.

And for the record, I'm for tighter gun laws that restrict to responsible, stable, law-abiding citizens.


Sounds like the kids want to have their cake and eat it, too.

They love protesting the lack of gun laws that if implemented, would not cause them any inconvenience whatsoever, but when someone comes up with a mildly inconvenient solution designed to improve their safety, a measure already in place at many large gatherings like football games, they scream like a squished chicken.

Educators need to teach these kids the meaning of the word "hypocrite".
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Re: School Shootings

Postby RiverDog » Mon Mar 26, 2018 5:52 am

Largent80 wrote:The problem is almost all of GOP candidates get huge contributions from the NRA....


That's not true at all. Here's an article that enumerates NRA contributions to all US Congressmen and Senators:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics ... 994285e99d

Just using our own Washington state's 4 Republican Congressmen as an example, Republican Dave Reichart of the 8th district received the most at just $5,000. Dan Newhouse (R-4th) received $4,000, Cathy McMorris (R-5th) received $2500, and Jaime Herrera Butler (R-3rd) didn't get a dime of NRA money.

Those contributions don't even qualify as a drop in the bucket when you consider that the average successful congressional campaign raises over $1.6 million.

http://www.msnbc.com/hardball/how-much- ... eat-congre
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Re: School Shootings

Postby burrrton » Mon Mar 26, 2018 7:25 am

That's not hyperbolic at all ... I've never heard that or even seen in written other than as pure hyperbole.


Then I don't think you listened to any of the speeches from the march, nor anything that's come out of the mouths of the foul-mouthed, incoherent children that have been all over the news since the day after the shooting.

That was actually among the least offensive slanders.

Trying to scare stupid gun owners (I'm a gun owner, we're not all stupid) into believing that anything anyone says about "gun control" = them "comin' to git yer guns!"


I think this is mostly true, but

(a) the message is disjointed (some propose Australia-type measures, and many March speakers saying small measures are the 'foot in the door'), and
(b) the proposed solutions can't be shown to have had literally any effect on the recent tragedies

So you've got the 'gun control' faction to blame for the other side being unwilling to cede any ground.

Honestly, why does anyone think they'll allow you to 'ban' "assault weapons" when literally no one can explain either how that will get them out of the hands of criminals nor what differentiates a black, scary-looking semi-auto rifle from any other?
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Re: School Shootings

Postby burrrton » Mon Mar 26, 2018 7:40 am

The problem is almost all of GOP candidates get huge contributions from the NRA and there were hundreds of people at these rallies signing people up to vote, and those people are going to be our future and will get rid of this BS.


WHAT BS? I've asked you this question multiple times, and the only answer I've gotten is "ban assault weapons".

Tell me:

1. What precisely *is* an "assault weapon"?
2. What law you'd pass that would have stopped, say, the VA Tech shooter or Adam Lanza.

You also need to educate yourself on the amount and distribution of NRA contributions, but I think RD and Bob covered that sufficiently.
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Re: School Shootings

Postby burrrton » Mon Mar 26, 2018 8:14 am

Old but Slow wrote:Come get me, Burrrton.


OK.

Old but Slow wrote:Guns in those situations usually bring tragedy.


No, they don't.
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Re: School Shootings

Postby RiverDog » Mon Mar 26, 2018 8:29 am

burrrton wrote:Honestly, why does anyone think they'll allow you to 'ban' "assault weapons" when literally no one can explain either how that will get them out of the hands of criminals nor what differentiates a black, scary-looking semi-auto rifle from any other?


I think you and I covered this once before.

One of the things that differentiates the black, scary looking semi automatic AR-15 from other semi automatics with some similar characteristics is that there is a fascination about military-style weapons in that look like they're straight out of a video game. I do believe that part of the psychological make-up of these whacked out kids is that when they reach the point where they want to shoot up the school, they are living out their fantasy that they acquired in video games, and a brown, wooden stock Ruger just doesn't do the trick for them. And there are other differences besides black and scary, such as pistol grips, bayonet holders, materials used in construction (composite plastics vs. steel and wood), etc.

It's only a theory and I don't have any evidence to back up my claim, but it's what I believe.

As far as getting them out of the hands of criminals, I don't think that's the issue in school shootings as very few of the school shooters have criminal backgrounds. The issue in the school shootings is keeping them out of the hands of kids, and there have been proposals to deny the sale of them to individuals under 21.
Last edited by RiverDog on Mon Mar 26, 2018 8:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
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