Hawktawk wrote:The midterm was a humongous win for the democrats . An unpopular president , inflation , economy , war , pandemic confusion and they have a 7 seat majority in the amateur hour house while losing a seat in the senate where the power is at . Repubs got smoked like a cheap joint . Nobody expected this a few months ago . And it was Trump and abortion .
RiverDog wrote:Yeah, I'm not aware of the FBI 'clearing' Trump, either. I won't go so far as to say with 100% certainty that Trump 'instigated' the riot, but he damn sure didn't lift a finger to prevent it or to protect the lives of those that were threatened on that day. At the very least, he's guilty of dereliction of duty and violated his oath of office.
Aseahawkfan wrote:Trump instigated the riot by lying about the election. No one shows up to riot if not for him whining about the election being stolen. He threw his own VP under the bus calling him a coward for not standing with him to deny a legally completed election. He encouraged a ridiculous fight across 50 states where he couldn't even prove election fraud in Georgia where a well-known and already accused of election tampering by Democrats Republican told him he found no signs of election tampering to warrant an investigation. Then he tried to intimidate other Republicans like Pence and Raffensberger into supporting him with what can only be termed an illegal phone call that sounded like some mob boss threatening a politician.
Aseahawkfan wrote:I don't think it was an insurrection myself because it wasn't organized enough to be an insurrection. It was clearly a riot. It was clearly caused by Trump spreading unfounded election lies on the basis of his word.
I do partially blame the Democrats because I watched the Democrats allow a violent takeover of six city blocks including a police station in Capitol Hill in Seattle while doing next to nothing until someone was murdered with the supposed leaders of the city takeover denying commerce in the area and emergency services from accessing the area. The Mayor called it a "summer of love" and made light of it until some of these same folks gathered and lived for a while outside her house until she ordered the police to clear them. More of the "I'm a Democrat hypocrite who calls out Trump for his behavior, but completely ignores the scumbag behavior of Democrats" while they wonder why Republicans and some independent voters are pissed off at Democrats. Like we're all stupid and can't see the homeless drug addict camps, vandalism, and general crime they are not policing and saying isn't there because they moved the goalposts for what a crime is to manipulate the crime statistics as they have done in Washington State. All of it documented such as raising the amount of goods that need to be stolen before it is considered felony theft and telling the police not to interdict drug crime or breakup homeless camps as long as they are only exchanging small amounts of drugs or doing small scale, non-violent property crime like breaking into people's cars or houses ands stealing only a little bit.
Aseahawkfan wrote:Fact is these two parties have been fueling each other's crazy with legitimate and obvious policy moves aimed at making them look more effective than they are. An example we often talk about is Republicans don't practice fiscal conservatism as many voters like you and myself want. And Democrats don't help the working class with their soft on crime policies and anti-police bills that handcuff the police while allowing the spread of crime they attempt to hide by moving the goalposts and manipulating statistics when doing so while we all have to deal with heroin zombies breaking into our cars and infesting our parks and city areas with their camps.
I'd tear both these parties down if I could because they don't care about America worth a damn. And Trump doesn't care either. Biden is just generally lost. I can only imagine his advisers are making sure he appears competent with policy at this point.
I agree that it wasn't an insurrection. I don't think that any of the rioters thought that they were going to topple the government, which is the definition of an insurrection.
I agree that it wasn't an insurrection. I don't think that any of the rioters thought that they were going to topple the government, which is the definition of an insurrection.
I-5 wrote:Rioters admitted bringing guns, ammo, and zip ties to the capitol. Whatever you want to call it is ok with me, but what we can't do is minimize it. If I walked to the Capitol building tomorrow with those same items on my body and successfully trespassed into the Capitol during session, what would the consequence be for my action?
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/justice-department/armed-jan-6-rioter-zip-ties-capitol-attack-friend-testifies-trial-rcna18733ers
I-5 wrote:Rioters admitted bringing guns, ammo, and zip ties to the capitol. Whatever you want to call it is ok with me, but what we can't do is minimize it. If I walked to the Capitol building tomorrow with those same items on my body and successfully trespassed into the Capitol during session, what would the consequence be for my action?
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/justice-department/armed-jan-6-rioter-zip-ties-capitol-attack-friend-testifies-trial-rcna18733ers
I-5 wrote:
Rioters admitted bringing guns, ammo, and zip ties to the capitol. Whatever you want to call it is ok with me, but what we can't do is minimize it. If I walked to the Capitol building tomorrow with those same items on my body and successfully trespassed into the Capitol during session, what would the consequence be for my action?
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/justice-department/armed-jan-6-rioter-zip-ties-capitol-attack-friend-testifies-trial-rcna18733ers
I-5 wrote:
Rioters admitted bringing guns, ammo, and zip ties to the capitol. Whatever you want to call it is ok with me, but what we can't do is minimize it. If I walked to the Capitol building tomorrow with those same items on my body and successfully trespassed into the Capitol during session, what would the consequence be for my action?
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/justice-department/armed-jan-6-rioter-zip-ties-capitol-attack-friend-testifies-trial-rcna18733ers
idhawkman wrote:Did you read the article you posted? Neither of those loons entered the Capitol with their firearms. Contrary to popular belief, no rioters were armed that entered the Capitol that day. No Capitol police were killed that day by rioters either. These are the reasons they call it an insurrection and not an armed insurrection and why the charges being levied are "unlawful parading". No trespassing charges have been charged because you can't charge someone for trespassing on their own property (remember, this is the people's house meaning it belongs to the public)
idhawkman wrote:The FBI cleared him (Trump) within a couple of weeks especially since he told supporters that day to peacefully protest the election.
c_hawkbob wrote:Oh come on, planning and coordinating the event is exactly what took place! That's why Bannon and Stone and the whole clown posse were telling everyone what was going to happen on 1/6, it's not at all as though this were a spontaneous event. The 1/6 committee is amassing a ton of evidence as to it preplanned and coordinated nature.
c_hawkbob wrote:That's a pretty old link there Riv. A lot has changed since then.
“You have to remember, this is the federal government, dude. Bureaucracy is in the FBI’s f---ing name,” Fulton told NBC News this month.
... “What we don’t want is the FBI becoming Hoover’s FBI again. We don’t want the FBI out there investigating people for no reason, right?” Fulton said. “And we don’t want those investigations to last forever.”
c_hawkbob wrote:The FBI itself has been, and continues to be in self defense mode over their not doing enough to warn ahead of the insurrection. anything they say must be viewed in that damage control light.
“You have to remember, this is the federal government, dude. Bureaucracy is in the FBI’s f---ing name,” Fulton told NBC News this month.
... “What we don’t want is the FBI becoming Hoover’s FBI again. We don’t want the FBI out there investigating people for no reason, right?” Fulton said. “And we don’t want those investigations to last forever.”
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/justic ... -rcna38615
c_hawkbob wrote:The FBI itself has been, and continues to be in self defense mode over their not doing enough to warn ahead of the insurrection. anything they say must be viewed in that damage control light.
“You have to remember, this is the federal government, dude. Bureaucracy is in the FBI’s f---ing name,” Fulton told NBC News this month.
... “What we don’t want is the FBI becoming Hoover’s FBI again. We don’t want the FBI out there investigating people for no reason, right?” Fulton said. “And we don’t want those investigations to last forever.”
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/justic ... -rcna38615
RiverDog wrote:And what does that have to do with the point I raised and that I thought that you were contesting, ie that the FBI does not have any evidence of Trump's involvement or advance knowledge of any plans for the riot/insurrection ahead of Jan. 6th? You said a lot has changed since the dates on the links I posted (Aug. 2021), so it shouldn't be too hard for you to find something timelier if you think that the information I posted is incorrect.
RiverDog wrote:And what does that have to do with the point I raised and that I thought that you were contesting, ie that the FBI does not have any evidence of Trump's involvement or advance knowledge of any plans for the riot/insurrection ahead of Jan. 6th? You said a lot has changed since the dates on the links I posted (Aug. 2021), so it shouldn't be too hard for you to find something timelier if you think that the information I posted is incorrect.
c_hawkbob wrote:That you are not likely to find the FBI saying they have findings that the insurrection was preplanned as it would be an admission of them not doing their jobs.
c_hawkbob wrote:I honestly don't understand what your issue is. I guess I just don't adhere stringently enough with your narrow interpretation of what is fair game in a reply to you. I'll try to do better.
c_hawkbob wrote:Oh come on, planning and coordinating the event is exactly what took place! That's why Bannon and Stone and the whole clown posse were telling everyone what was going to happen on 1/6, it's not at all as though this were a spontaneous event. The 1/6 committee is amassing a ton of evidence as to it preplanned and coordinated nature.
c_hawkbob wrote:Oh come on, planning and coordinating the event is exactly what took place! That's why Bannon and Stone and the whole clown posse were telling everyone what was going to happen on 1/6, it's not at all as though this were a spontaneous event. The 1/6 committee is amassing a ton of evidence as to it preplanned and coordinated nature.
Aseahawkfan wrote:Well, we'll see soon I hope, before Donald is truly running for president again and on the campaign trail and possibly winning this time around.
You can already see Trump supporters like Idhawkman are completely unmoved by these assertions. The Congress is now split with the House Republicans now able to slow or halt investigations. Trump has full access to Twitter. If he wins the nomination, I expect like last time all the former Republicans taking shots at him and trying to take him out to get behind him to take the White House to push their agenda.
The Committee had a few years to build their case. Hopefully they will present it soon and it will have some teeth and Trump won't skate on by again, run for president again, and against an 82 year old Biden with no limitations on his rallies, Twitter, and TV use to win again.
As far as proving an insurrection, it's going take more than show up to protest the election result. They will have to prove Trump intended the mob to attack Congress, bring arms, and reverse the election by violence. I currently have not seen that evidence that he did so. There certainly were not any shootouts.
But nothing would make me happier than to see him taken out by the legal system, it just doesn't seem to be working.
I-5 wrote:I haven't seen a single comment here that anyone thinks Trump is going to jail. I don't think he ever is.
But I think he can and SHOULD be indicted based on the evidence we've all seen so far. Indictment is enough for me. If he's not indicted, then we are saying that some are indeed above the law.
I-5 wrote:I haven't seen a single comment here that anyone thinks Trump is going to jail. I don't think he ever is.
But I think he can and SHOULD be indicted based on the evidence we've all seen so far. Indictment is enough for me. If he's not indicted, then we are saying that some are indeed above the law.
Aseahawkfan wrote:Trump has already been impeached. Attacked in just about every way publicly. Screwed up the handling of an pandemic. Was completely limited in his rallies during the campaign during COVID. And still he came within a few million votes of winning a second term.
Trump's base views any indictments as political attacks on Trump. They don't stop him from running.
When you have most of a political party driven by hate for the other side like Republicans are driven by right now, the rational doesn't super well well.
Trump appeals to emotion, not reason. Humans are emotionally driven creatures with a rare few who truly embrace rational thought as their primary driver of behavior. So letting a narcissistic loon like Trump with a powerful charisma able to tap into the emotions of his base run again is playing with fire and hoping to not get burned.
RiverDog wrote:That's the truth. If what Trump has endured to this point of his political career isn't enough to run him out of office and out of the party...banging pornstars and paying them off, shaking down a head of state for dirt on is political opponent, on a recording phone call demanding that a state SOS to 'find' votes, standing by idling during the Capitol riot and putting lives at risk due to his inaction...then there's almost no chance that he could do anything that would change the equation. Even if he were to be convicted of a mass shooting in a grade school, it wouldn't be enough for some to give him up.
50-60 years ago, if just one of those half dozen or so scandals that Trump has had became public about any elected official, it would have been more than enough to ruin their career.
RiverDog wrote:You're preaching to the choir, bro. Indictment isn't enough for me, but I'm enough of a realist to know that it's all we're going to get.
I'm not saying that Trump shouldn't be pursued with every possible resource available to prosecutors. I do think it's important for the historical record to get as much crap into the books as possible so that people will be able to look back on this period of time during American history and see everything that the POS did.
Aseahawkfan wrote:This isn't the same America of 50 or 60 years ago. And the tolerance for scandals is just one of hundreds of noticeable differences.
I seriously miss the 80s myself. That was a good time era almost across the board. All of us 80s kids thought we would make a much better and more inclusive world without throwing out the baby with the bathwater.
But these nuts in both parties want to find enemies where they don't exist whether it's the Republicans hating on immigrants or Democrats hating on "straight cis racist white males." It's whacky world and I'm trying to live in it and still enjoy myself.
Why the hell do we need so many words to refer to people now? I miss simpler days.
I'm hoping these clowns don't screw up one of the easiest wins in world history. You get handed the wealthiest and most technologically advanced nation in the world with one of the most diverse populations and you ruin it because you want to argue over stupid crap? Living in America is like leading in the Super Bowl 100 to 10 against life, with too many coaches trying to find a way to lose the game and create problems bigger than they are. It's really stupid.
RiverDog wrote:For you, it's the 80's. For me, it's the 60's and 70's.
Prior to the JFK assassination in 1963 and the Vietnam War that followed in the mid-late 60's, people trusted what their government told them. Had the Covid pandemic struck in 1962 and they had a vaccine available, there would have been 90-95% uptake, and no one would have been peddling conspiracy theories. Your entertainment options consisted of 3 channels of TV and AM radio. There were lots less garbage for a person to filter through. High school football was huge back then. My mom used to prepare dinner like fried chicken, pack it in a picnic basket, then take it to the stadium an hour or so before the game so we could get a good seat and made sure to put in a 6 pack of beer for the old man. Can you imagine bringing a 6 pack into any event nowadays? They'd get 5,000 people to show up for those high school games. It was lots better than watching Ed Sullivan. Yes, life was a lot simpler back then.
But that's from the perspective of a white man like me. If you weren't born to the right parents like I was, life was quite a bit different back then. My mom, who had a heart of gold and was the most racially tolerant person that I know of out of that generation, had legitimate concerns when my brother started dating an Ethiopian back in the early-mid 80's. "What are they (kids) going to call themselves: Black or white? They'll be fighting a two headed monster." And she was exactly right, for that period of time and the conditions she was raised under. But she didn't anticipate that the world would change by the time my nephews grew up, where multi race kids have become one of the norms and not the exception. In that regard, today's times are much preferrable to the times that I grew up in, which includes the 80's.
I'm going off topic here a bit, so please indulge me. I often times tell others about my college buddies and I going to the boat races here in the Tri Cites in the mid 70's. It would be 100+ degrees on the third weekend in July, and we'd bring an ice cooler full of beer, lawn chairs, and set up shop somewhere near the rivershore for a good view of the hydroplanes with maybe 100' or so between us and the river with no one sitting in front of us. On one occasion, someone had brought a bunch of surgical tubing, and we cut it into 5' or so lengths and fill them with water, tying off one end and pinching down the other, forming a reservoir of water like a bladder, putting it under our armpits and apply pressure. We could shoot a 1/2" diameter stream of water 50 feet, so when a hot looking chick in a bikini would walk in front of us, we'd shoot them in the ass or the boobs. They'd get pissed off as all get out, or at least act that way, but 15-30 minutes later, the same girls would come walking past us again. True story. I can't even imagine what would have happen to us under today's standards.
Yeah, those were the good ole days!
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