Dems in Denial

[RiverDog]

No, not the river in Africa.

Since it became apparent that Donald Trump would win the R nomination, I felt that he was going to tear the party apart, and he still might. But the Democratic Party is in much worse shape, and all I hear out of them is denial:

They tried to change the results of the election by demanding recounts in several swing states. That failed. They tried to influence Republican electors to vote opposite of how their state voted. That failed, too (Ironically Clinton lost 4 electoral votes, twice what Trump lost). And now, they are blaming their loss on everything from Russian hacking, the Comey email investigation, and angry white males (why is it only white males cast "angry" votes?").

http://www.politico.com/story/2016/11/h ... ame-231215

But the fact is that they not only lost the Presidency, they lost in both the House and Senate, Gubernatorial elections, and state houses.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics ... story.html

So how much longer are they going to rationalize their ass kicking? Do they honestly think that they would have lost elections at all those levels if their ideas and candidates were widely accepted?

[NorthHawk]

Didn't Clinton get more votes than Trump?
That's not an ass kicking but a better strategy of going after the swing states.

Dems are hurtin' all right. And they should be as they neglected a large part of their base.
They (Clinton) talked about the middle class, but offered very little to address their concerns. It's why Bernie was so popular.
Trump offered them hope, and it remains to be seen if he can deliver.
Hope he can.

[savvyman]

Dems are a joke - they fixed the nomination process to "Appoint" the most corrupt (Corrupt I mean the USA record holder for selling political influence for money) candidate in the history of the country and the American people reject her - and since then they have blamed everyone except their own corrupt selves.

Trump has been kicking butt and he is not even in office - Telling China that the good old days of trade policies that benefit their country and our ruling elite class at the expense of millions of middle class jobs are over - telling Boeing that the cost overrun BS charges to the Taxpayers are over - telling Lockheed martin that their F35 over charging in the billions to the USA Taxpayer is over - - telling USA Corporations that if you are going to continue to export American jobs oversea's then you will do so at your own risk and at a significant cost. Finally we have a President who is not playing by the political rules that have benefitted a very tiny % of the population over the past 30 year and instead is acting as the CEO of the country where all the people are shareholders. Let's hope this type of behavior continues.

[burrrton]

telling USA Corporations that if you are going to continue to export American jobs oversea's then you will do so at your own risk and at a significant cost.

Leaving aside whether this falls under the scope of the Executive branch alone, who told you X company's jobs were "American jobs" and what (moral) right do you think you have to penalize them for going where the business climate takes them?

Protectionism is insanity.

Finally we have a President who is not playing by the political rules that have benefitted a very tiny % of the population over the past 30 year and instead is acting as the CEO of the country where all the people are shareholders. Let's hope this type of behavior continues.

To whatever degree he's doing that, hear hear.

Didn't Clinton get more votes than Trump?

Yeah, but that's by virtue of running up the score in CA and NY, so when you combine that with the rogering the Dems took at every other level of government, it's going to be pretty tough to convince him he doesn't have some level of mandate.

Here's hoping he makes good decisions (which, to be fair, he's mostly been doing so far) and that Congress reigns in his worst impulses.

[RiverDog]

Didn't Clinton get more votes than Trump?
That's not an ass kicking but a better strategy of going after the swing states.

Dems are hurtin' all right. And they should be as they neglected a large part of their base.
They (Clinton) talked about the middle class, but offered very little to address their concerns. It's why Bernie was so popular.
Trump offered them hope, and it remains to be seen if he can deliver.
Hope he can.

When you consider that the R's not only won the Presidency when everybody and their dog was predicting that they'd get shellacked, that even though the R's had more seats in the Senate up for re-election yet they still held onto their majority, that they maintained their solid majority in the House, increased their lead in Governorships, and won more races in state houses, and did all of that even though the R's put up what should have been an easy to beat POTUS candidate, I'd say the D's got their asses kicked. And what's worse, they don't even seem to realize why they lost so many elections, choosing to rationalize it by whining about dirty politics (see Bill Clinton's remarks) the Russians hacking, and the electoral college.

Clinton ran a piss poor campaign for sure, which was really odd because she was by far the most experienced candidate in the field, having participated in 4 primary campaigns and two Presidential campaigns, a number of gubernatorial and senatorial campaigns, had a much larger and better organized campaign network, and was very well financed, with Trump spending less than 60% of what Clinton spent. Plus there are far more registered Democrats in this country than there are registered Republicans. I don't know if there's ever been a POTUS candidate in history that had as large of an advantage in political experience, in party strength, and in campaign financing over their opponent than Hillary Clinton had over Donald Trump.

But the campaign that she ran pales in comparison to the root cause of her loss. With all the advantages she had, she should have kicked Trump's ass to the moon and back. Her biggest problem was herself. She had way too much baggage and her negatives were way too high, by far the highest of any POTUS candidate since they've been tracking it next to those of her opponent.

[Hawktawk]

Trump is an insufferable crazy nasty jackass. You are lauding him like a saviour and hes not yet in office.4 years of the twittering insulting rude groper in chief is going to be a LOOOOOONG time.
The economy is the least of my concerns when its clear that Romney was exactly right in saying he lacks the judgement and TEMPERAMENT!!!!!!!to be president.
Hes tweeting away about China, sucking up to Putin calling the evil murderous thug with the largest and most modern nuclear weapons arsenal on the planet by a mile a strong smart leader.
Hes denying an intelligence report and trashing the entire intelligence gathering community on twitter because hes too petty and thin skinned to admit Russia helped him as much as they could and popped the champagne when he won .Hes quoting the word of the absolutely vile rapist anarchist Julian Assange from Wiki Leaks over intelligence experts
Hes trolling and mocking Arnold Schwarzenegger's version of celebrity apprentice on twitter. Hes taking the bait and responding angrily on twitter to people like Alec Baldwin and others who dare parody him, something every previous president has handled with the sense of humor and decorum befitting a POTUS.

Hes draining the swamp of the millionaires and filling it with billionaires.Goldman sachs executives etc.( now he says he doesn't like the term "drain the swamp" anymore.) I wonder why?His adoring sheep still like it. Don't hold your breath folks.

He picks for secretary of state an Exxon executive with huge billion dollar deals with Russia and photo ops toasting wine with Putin.Developing oil is all the guy has done in his entire adult life.
Trumps kids are his favored advisors which is ass backwards and weird as hell IMO kind of like him touching Ivanka's ass almost every time they share a stage.
His conflicts of interest around the globe and underhanded dealings will wind up making the Clinton foundation look like a legitimate charity in comparison when its all said and done.

I disagree that Hillary was a strong candidate with a huge advantage. She was a terrible candidate, lazy, dishonest, and corrupt. She was more boring than watching paint dry and her raspy voice on the stump when she bothered to get off her fat ass and campaign sounded like fingernails on the blackboard. The dems are definitely to blame for losing putting this old bag up for coronation.

It was a gimme and he still would have whiffed even with all the fake news and Russian hacking without one last piece of dirt from the Comey letter surfaced in the last week.He won the electoral college bay approximately 100,000 votes in 3 states.
I don't blame Comey for doing his job and I have no sympathy for the biatch either.

Any qualified Republican candidate would have beaten her but it turned out to be the least qualified and certainly the least mentally stable that did.
Ill quote his wife Melania. "Donald needs to act more presidential" and "sometimes I have two boys in the house". Terrific. I feel so much better.

I hope to be wrong as always about the future of my country but this loony toones scares me more every day.
I'm really glad I voted for none of the above. I am therefore guilt free in telling the truth about both the parties and particularly this utter fraud.

[RiverDog]

Hawktalk;

I agree with everything you've said about Donald Trump, and like you, I didn't vote for him. I am not treating him as a "savior". IMO he's not fit to serve as our President.

Additionally, I did not indicate in any way, shape, or form that Hillary was a strong candidate. To the contrary, she was the most divisive and easiest to beat candidate of all the major Dems (Bernie, Biden, etc). Her presence at the top of the Dem's ticket is what brought out so many conservative voters. Many people voted for Trump not because they liked him, but because they didn't want to see that scandalous witch attain the highest office. Had that been Bernie or Biden running, they would not have energized conservative voters like Hillary did. There were also voters like me that would have voted for a Sanders or Biden that either voted for an independent or stayed home altogether.

Hillary had some huge advantages over Trump in terms of organizational strengths and experience in running campaigns that most people don't recognize. Plus she was running against a candidate that had the highest negative rating of any candidate that's been nominated by a major party since they started running the survey some 50+ years ago, and she still couldn't beat him. Additionally, it wasn't just the national election that the Dems lost. They lost an opportunity to pick up the Senate and gain a lot more ground in the House than they did along with losing ground in Governorships and other state wide races.

Despite all of the above facts, the Dems, with Bill Clinton leading the way, are blaming everyone and everything except for themselves for their defeats. Their problem isn't Russian hacking or the electoral college. It's their candidate(s) and/or their message. That was the point of the thread.

[Hawktawk]

And I agree with you on most of what you said here as well. The one thing about this huge "advantage" in campaign money and organization on the ground for Hillary(true) is that trump was so off the wall, so intertainment media savvy he was drawing daily interviews even from traditionally democratic leaning sites like CNN, MSNBC etc.

Add in my new most hated channel that used to be my favorite, FAUX and meatheads like Hannity had him on every possible chance they could.They allowed him to phone in from trump tower in his robe and slippers every morning with the same nice photoshopped picture of a smiling trump with his hair combed on the screen each time. He bullied networks by threatening to cut off access to his huge ratings when he was on if they crossed him.Witness Meghan Kelley exhibit A.

It was estimated that he was able to garner TWO BILLION DOLLARS in FREE earned media IN THE PRIMARIES. That is more than any presidential campaign has ever spent in the general election. So he wasn't at any disadvantage getting his message out but rather a huge advantage.
His racist, misogynist bigoted nationalistic message early on allowed him to get the rednecks off their porch to vote for him in early states. And in a field of 17 candidates he was winning states with 15 and 20% of the vote even though most republicans were repulsed by him.
But selfishness on the part of too many of his rivals staying in state after state split the 80% anti Trump vote allowing him to continue winning with a distinct minority of votes cast and sky high disapproval from the party.
To his credit the barnstorming tour was a success as he bloviated and insulted and race baited like a spoiled 5th grader to his adoring fans.WHOSE PAYING FOR THE WALL FOLKS!!!!!DRAIN THE SWAMP!!!!!

He outworked Hillary 2 to in the general. She was so lazy she didn't every visit Wisconsin a single time and made almost no stops in the 3 blue states she lost the electoral college in by a total of 100,000 votes while winning the popular vote by 2 million.
Kellyanne Conway the witch on a broom became his interpreter late in the game. Ill give her credit she can make a mountain of gold out of a POS and she did, along with other moral eunuchs like Sessions, Pence, Priebus and so on.

And still he was going to lose until the Comey letter surfaced. It wiped the habitual sexual abuser, charlatan businessman story off the front page and replaced it with more dirt on e mails found on the computer of a pervert named wiener(cant make it up folks)
The polls began tightening immediately and never reversed the trend until the stunner on election night......
That's a perfect storm.

But winning is one thing, governing quite another. He cannot do it, no way in hell. I guess his 30 something son in law Jarred Kushner is his chief advisor officially(no nepotism there)so its cool. I'm so relieved.

There is no pivot to be made towards decorum and presidential behavior. He doesn't want to change anything as his tweeting about Meryl Streep first thing in the morning proves. And he couldn't if he tried.
You are either born presidential timbre or you aren't. No way in hell he is or ever will be.
To be fair the man hes replacing was no prize and frankly the malaize during his terms led to the frustration tapped into by trump.
But at least the man had a sense of humor and a certain amount of decorum.
Obama exits with a staggering 50% approval rating and Trumps has fallen back to 37% and dropping AND HES NOT IN OFFICE YET.
That along with everything else Trump is totally unprecedented.

I fear for the very survival of our nation over the next 4 years.

I gotta quit thinking about this stuff, its bad for my health. Hope i'm wrong as hell.

[RiverDog]

And still he was going to lose until the Comey letter surfaced. It wiped the habitual sexual abuser, charlatan businessman story off the front page and replaced it with more dirt on e mails found on the computer of a pervert named wiener(cant make it up folks)
The polls began tightening immediately and never reversed the trend until the stunner on election night......
That's a perfect storm.

I don't think the Comey letter made as big a difference in the election results as you claim it did. Clinton had a 3-5 point lead in every major poll but one in the last week of the campaign. Most voters that cared about stuff like that had already made up their minds as a result of her previous brushes with the email controversy. Trump beat her up in the rust belt states like Michigan, Pennsylvania, Ohio, and Wisconsin with his protectionism rhetoric. And speaking of Wisconsin, that state hadn't gone Republican since 1984 despite the fact that Republicans had won 3 elections since then.

The biggest difference wasn't so much as why people voted the way they did as it was why so many Dems failed to turn out for their candidate. Despite the fact that Trump was such a revolting and divisive candidate even to conservatives like me, Hillary couldn't get those people that supported Obama, who ran against a lot more palatable candidates in McCain and Romney, to come out and support her despite the fact that it was known that the election was going to be close.

The Comey letter is just one more incidental factor that the Dems are using to rationalize their problems. The election should have never been that close to begin with.

[burrrton]

The Comey letter is just one more incidental factor that the Dems are using to rationalize their problems.

Also, blaming Comey for that letter is like a burglar blaming the arresting cop for him missing work the next day- "THE SEATTLE PD COST ME MY JOB" would be a bizarre claim. Comey was just doing what he was supposed to do- Clinton's the one that ran State business through her homebrew server for Pete's sake.

[Hawktawk]

I completely agree about Comey. Hes a decent man of integrity who was doing his job as I said in my first post of the thread. When you find a device related to an FBI investigation that was not turned in during an unrelated child sexting case I think not only congress but the American people should know. I don't have one bit of sympathy for her. Hacks are pointless if there's no dirt to dig and there was plenty.

But in an election where he won the election by capturing 3 blue states by a total of 80,000 votes you cant say any minute thing wasn't a factor and that letter was a bombshell.
It knocked his sex scandals and gaffes off the front page and reminded everyone who was going to do the safe thing and vote Clinton how corrupt she is.
It was about turnout yes but saying it was a bad campaign doesn't explain all of it.

Gary Johnson was the only honest person of integrity running and I feel proud to have supported his campaign both financially and at the ballot box.

It is highly troubling to hear reports that Trump operatives may have been colluding with Russia to undermine Clinton.More troubling he will not release his tax returns and plans to have his sons run his business.
Im sure it wont come up around the table right?

Its yet to be determined if there is any truth to the reports that secret tapes of golden shower sex with prostitutes while in Russia may be driving his love affair with Vlad to avoid being exposed.
His response?" I am a germaphobe, it would never happen." Jesus take the wheel.

Did you catch his presser yesterday? What a moronic idiot. The stock market is down 150 and pharmaceuticals are tanking based on his unsteady combative free market and corporation bashing remarks.
He has no idea WTF he is talking about
I'm embarrassed for our nation and scared sh!+less for our security and economic stability with this unhinged lunatic leading the charge.

[burrrton]

But in an election where he won the election by capturing 3 blue states by a total of 80,000 votes you cant say any minute thing wasn't a factor and that letter was a bombshell.

Point is that the letter itself wasn't the bombshell- her being under investigation was. The letter was just an inevitable and required part of that.

I'm embarrassed for our nation and scared sh!+less for our security and economic stability with this unhinged lunatic leading the charge.

I share much of that, but I think we part ways if you think Hillary would have been much if any better. I think she'd have been dangerous in *different* ways, but it still would have been (IMO) a uniquely dangerous time for our county with somebody that corrupt in the White House.

[Hawktawk]

It was a case of which std is better for you.

Policy wise I don't agree with Clinton on much of anything but I absolutely believe she would be more competent and professional so yes we would be safer. "at a minimum she will go down as a great senator " Donald j trump .

8 years as a First Lady and 4 as a Secretary of State as well. Politics is a job description . Nobody wants a politician but it's a specific skill set that is required which he has none of the above
She would have been a safer choice for our collective safety than the naked emperor bloviating on Twitter about nuclear foreign powers and taking time out from the people's business to bash his replacement on celebrity apprentice , Meryl Streep, Alec Baldwin .calling CNN fake news in his first press conference in 7 months etc etc etc.

As an extremely bipolar man I know what I'm looking at but only one of us is on their meds.
Scary as hell.

[RiverDog]

I completely agree about Comey. Hes a decent man of integrity who was doing his job as I said in my first post of the thread. When you find a device related to an FBI investigation that was not turned in during an unrelated child sexting case I think not only congress but the American people should know. I don't have one bit of sympathy for her. Hacks are pointless if there's no dirt to dig and there was plenty.

But in an election where he won the election by capturing 3 blue states by a total of 80,000 votes you cant say any minute thing wasn't a factor and that letter was a bombshell.
It knocked his sex scandals and gaffes off the front page and reminded everyone who was going to do the safe thing and vote Clinton how corrupt she is.
It was about turnout yes but saying it was a bad campaign doesn't explain all of it.

Gary Johnson was the only honest person of integrity running and I feel proud to have supported his campaign both financially and at the ballot box.

It is highly troubling to hear reports that Trump operatives may have been colluding with Russia to undermine Clinton.More troubling he will not release his tax returns and plans to have his sons run his business.
Im sure it wont come up around the table right?

Its yet to be determined if there is any truth to the reports that secret tapes of golden shower sex with prostitutes while in Russia may be driving his love affair with Vlad to avoid being exposed.
His response?" I am a germaphobe, it would never happen." Jesus take the wheel.

Did you catch his presser yesterday? What a moronic idiot. The stock market is down 150 and pharmaceuticals are tanking based on his unsteady combative free market and corporation bashing remarks.
He has no idea WTF he is talking about
I'm embarrassed for our nation and scared sh!+less for our security and economic stability with this unhinged lunatic leading the charge.

That's like saying since an offensive lineman jumping offsides on 3rd and 3 with a minute to go with the score tied cost us the game. When the score is close, there's a lot of things that MIGHT have had a direct impact on the result, but none of us in here would throw the OL under the bus for a 5 yard penalty as there's scores of plays that had they gone our way, could have made the difference.

I honestly don't think a lot of people paid much attention to that letter. Most people are influenced by 10 second sound bites and video clips, and a letter from some stiff in the justice department isn't either. Trump hit Clinton hard in the rust belt in the last couple of weeks, and that's what made the difference. He was speaking a language the swing voters, Reagan Democrats, understood, and that was outsourcing jobs. The folks that make Fords and Chevys in Detroit heard that message and responded. This should not have been a close election.

Trump is going to be a very unconventional POTUS, certainly the most unconventional we've had in the past 100 years, and I'm no happier with his ascension than you are. But we owe it to him to give him a chance. This talk of a nuclear Armageddon and economic catastrophe is utter nonsense. Heck, having an unhinged lunatic with his finger on the button might be a good thing as our adversaries might not want to test us for fear of what Trump might do whereas they may not have respected someone like Hillary. That attitude certainly had an effect on the former Soviet Union when that gun slinging cowboy Ronald Reagan was elected POTUS.

[Hawktawk]

RD I don't owe him a goddamn thing.I've given him his chance already. There's a reason hes tanking in the polls and the markets are becoming nervous and he isn't even sworn in . Hes proving daily to be every big a POS I was afraid he would be. He owes america his tax returns. He owes us divestiture of his businesses which doesn't mean handing them over to his oily used car salesmen sons.He owes us his undivided attention to the affairs of our nation not up at night tweeting about television shows and anyone who dares cross him. His actions prove that all he really cared about was winning, not governing. Hes clueless. He lies so much every time he talks it makes Hillary sound honest in comparison.
Its a big job. You cant split it with being an international businessman or a twitterholic. Hes unconventional alright. Unconventional and UNFIT.
Impeach his ass. Ill go for president Pence 10 times over.

[RiverDog]

RD I don't owe him a goddamn thing.I've given him his chance already. There's a reason hes tanking in the polls and the markets are becoming nervous and he isn't even sworn in . Hes proving daily to be every big a POS I was afraid he would be. He owes america his tax returns. He owes us divestiture of his businesses which doesn't mean handing them over to his oily used car salesmen sons.He owes us his undivided attention to the affairs of our nation not up at night tweeting about television shows and anyone who dares cross him. His actions prove that all he really cared about was winning, not governing. Hes clueless. He lies so much every time he talks it makes Hillary sound honest in comparison.
Its a big job. You cant split it with being an international businessman or a twitterholic. Hes unconventional alright. Unconventional and UNFIT.
Impeach his ass. Ill go for president Pence 10 times over.

No, you haven't given him a chance. Like you said, he hasn't even been sworn in and you've already made your mind up that he's going to start World War 3 and/or create an economic depression. Hell, even his most bitter rivals are encouraging their constituents to give him a chance.

It's not unusual for the markets to get nervous when there's a changing in the guard. And who gives a rat's ass about the polls? That's what I didn't like about Bill Clinton, that he didn't make a single decision without taking into consideration what it would do to his poll numbers or his popularity. One of the few things that I do like about Trump is that he could care less about what people say about him or his popularity rating.

I don't disagree at all with your characterizations of Trump's personality or his fitness for office. But our complaining about it isn't going to change a damn thing, so you might as well get used to it rather than fretting about every negative thing you hear about him.

[Hawktawk]

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/video/moo ... vi-AAlP7wz

About the most left wing liberal activist Imaginable agrees with you on this. Its actually the most reasonable and analytical Ive ever heard Micheal Moore be even though hes a niner fan apparently.
It was an enjoyable listen from Trumps fake news which I far prefer to Faux these days which I flip right on by.
I have seen enough of Trump to know how its going to go.I had before he was nominated but I backed off to see how president elect Trump would act as opposed to candidate Trump.Its as bad or worse than ever.

Hopefully his handlers can box him in. Almost all of his picks for cabinet posts have contradicted his assertions and policy positions in testimony before the congress including Rex Tillerson and General Mattis.
Hes the most clear and present danger we face in my lifetime.
I always hope to be wrong but if there was going to be a pivot towards doing the peoples business it would have happened long ago.
The emperor has no clothes.

[RiverDog]

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/video/moore-clintons-loss-goes-beyond-email-probe/vi-AAlP7wz

About the most left wing liberal activist Imaginable agrees with you on this. Its actually the most reasonable and analytical Ive ever heard Micheal Moore be even though hes a niner fan apparently.
It was an enjoyable listen from Trumps fake news which I far prefer to Faux these days which I flip right on by.
I have seen enough of Trump to know how its going to go.I had before he was nominated but I backed off to see how president elect Trump would act as opposed to candidate Trump.Its as bad or worse than ever.

Hopefully his handlers can box him in. Almost all of his picks for cabinet posts have contradicted his assertions and policy positions in testimony before the congress including Rex Tillerson and General Mattis.
Hes the most clear and present danger we face in my lifetime.
I always hope to be wrong but if there was going to be a pivot towards doing the peoples business it would have happened long ago.
The emperor has no clothes.

I don't agree with Michael Moore on much, but he's exactly right on this issue. The Comey letter did have an impact, a very minor impact, on the outcome, like the 5 yard offside penalty in my football analogy. That wasn't the first October surprise a candidate had to deal with. In 2000, George W. Bush had a DUI arrest that was leaked just days prior the election that turned what was looking like a substantial win into a barn burner...the fact that he hadn't touched a drop in 14 years being omitted in most reports. And he's right about the Democrat's doing themselves a disservice by focusing on the Comey letter...and, I might add, other superficial stuff that they seem to be so enamored with, like Russian hacking, the electoral college, and angry white men. As he points out, they need to figure out why that twice in the past 16 years they've lost the electoral college when they've won the popular vote. The electoral college isn't going away anytime soon, so it would behoove them to figure out how to win close elections.

You can't tell how a candidate or even a President-elect is going to govern until they are actually in the Oval Office. Trump has already backed down on a number of his campaign promises, including is pledge to prosecute Hillary, Obamacare, and his Muslim ban, and that's before he's been sworn in. So come down off the window ledge and tune into the show. It's going to be an interesting 4 years to say the least.

[burrrton]

It was a case of which std is better for you.

I can agree with that- I just can't argue with a straight face that a scorching case of syphilis would have been so much more preferable to my gonorrhea.

[burrrton]

The Comey letter did have an impact, a very minor impact, on the outcome, like the 5 yard offside penalty in my football analogy.

It's a good analogy if speaking only of the negligible impact, but again, Comey keeping Congress informed of every development in the investigation was required, or at least bog standard, behavior.

I know you don't disagree, but it's just ridiculous to say "If only he hadn't written that letter", as if the letter itself is the issue in question.

As he points out, they need to figure out why that twice in the past 16 years they've lost the electoral college when they've won the popular vote. The electoral college isn't going away anytime soon, so it would behoove them to figure out how to win close elections.

Yup. Winning California by 6M votes is not a path to the White House. Nor should it be.

Hes the most clear and present danger we face in my lifetime.

Get a hold of yourself, HT.

[Hawktawk]

I worry about too much s*** and as I've said I hope to be wrong . But I don't think weve ever put less qualified candidate in the Oval Office . By that I mean judgement and temperament as Romney said.
Bush called him "the chaos candidate".
I'd go for Jeb bush a million times over. Yes trump won and I hope for the best by I've seen enough to know what's coming . He was back on Twitter this am blasting Clinton , intelligence , the secret agent report claiming much dirt is held on him for the appropriate time etc .
His own staff is blindsided daily with his rants, having to go out and explain the next thing he said after they check his Twitter feed. It doesn't take a mensa member to figure out how it's going to go.

Bipolar people can make good golf course superintendents if they take their meds. Presidents who won't even admit they have a single flaw ? Not so much .
We in trouble boys and girls. I predict a constitutional crisis in the first year.

[RiverDog]

It's (5 yard offside penalty) a good analogy if speaking only of the negligible impact, but again, Comey keeping Congress informed of every development in the investigation was required, or at least bog standard, behavior.

I know you don't disagree, but it's just ridiculous to say "If only he hadn't written that letter", as if the letter itself is the issue in question.

I don't think the letter itself is a question, but the timing of it is, and it should be investigated. My point is that the Dems are using it as an excuse to rationalize their problems.

As far as the electoral college goes, like you, I favor it, and not because it seems to favor conservatives. The focus now is on the R's having an advantage, but the D's have selective memories. There have been relatively recent elections where the electoral college disproportionally favored the D, such as in 2004 and 1960. Kerry could have beaten Bush had he taken a very close contest in Ohio even though Bush beat him by 3M in the popular vote, and Kennedy beat Nixon by 84 votes in the electoral college even though he won the popular vote by just 110K. What I like about the electoral college is that it forces the candidates to campaign nation wide and state wide. If it just went by simple popular vote, then there would be no motivation for candidates to get out of the urban areas and regions with large population bases, such as the northeast and southern California. One change I would make would be to make the electoral vote automatic or mandatory rather than contend with these "faithless" or "Hamilton" electors.

[RiverDog]

He (Trump) was back on Twitter this am blasting Clinton , intelligence , the secret agent report claiming much dirt is held on him for the appropriate time etc .
His own staff is blindsided daily with his rants, having to go out and explain the next thing he said after they check his Twitter feed. It doesn't take a mensa member to figure out how it's going to go.

Bipolar people can make good golf course superintendents if they take their meds. Presidents who won't even admit they have a single flaw ? Not so much .
We in trouble boys and girls. I predict a constitutional crisis in the first year.

He's definitely not afraid to speak his mind, that's for sure. If there is a certainty in all of this, it's that it will be a much different presidency than we've been used to. Teddy Roosevelt is the closest President to Donald Trump that I can think of. They used to say of TR that he was a "steam engine in trousers" because he'd never shut up. He had quirky habits, too, such as boxing matches in the White House as a form of exercise, once getting injured so badly that he suffered a detached retina and partial blindness in one eye.

My point is that Trump's big mouth and tweeting habits is not necessarily as bad a thing as you are fearing. I'm not defending Trump's behavior, I'm simply saying that we need to see how this all is going to play out instead of running around yelling that the sky is falling.

There won't be any constitutional crisis in at least the first two years because the R's control Congress. All of the controversies come when the opposition controls Congress...Watergate in the '70's, Iran-Contra in the 80's, and Monicagate in the 90's all happened when the Administration's opponents controlled the Hill. The Democrats are on the outside looking in.

[Hawktawk]

Rd I hope you're right but we will revisit. At some point republicans will have had enough and it won't take 2 years .

It isn't like Mike Pence is fresh off the turnip truck . He's impressive and presidential .
I'll quit the ranting and hope for the best but fear the worst.

[RiverDog]

Rd I hope you're right but we will revisit. At some point republicans will have had enough and it won't take 2 years .

It isn't like Mike Pence is fresh off the turnip truck . He's impressive and presidential .
I'll quit the ranting and hope for the best but fear the worst.

I have a lot of concerns about this guy, too, Hawktalk, which is why I didn't vote for him. You are by no means alone in your fears.

I wish Trump would cease with the rhetoric. He got into it with civil rights legend John Lewis the other day. He doesn't need to be responding directly to every negative comment. All Presidents have some really nasty things said about them. He's not helping the healing process by going into the gutter with those guys.

[Hawktawk]

The tweeting etc, attacking every critic on social media is a much bigger deal than many say. Roosevelt # 1 was indeed a strong leader despite his quirks . His favorite saying was " walk softly and carry a big stick# that is nothing like trump, sorry.He was a truly tough as nail military guy.not to mention any off the wall thing he may have said often was never heard by the public at large in an era far before modern media .


Trump gets fairly high rating from Americans for being strong . It demonstrates how he got elected and in fact nominated . People are so politically and socially ignorant they mistake tough talk for actual back bone . A man who threatens and attacks and insults anyone in his way on social media is an exceedingly weak person mentally. He is giving our adversaries a clear window into his psyche which is frightening.

He said months ago he would cut off his Twitter account. He said a lot of things.
It's not shocking for a politician to lie and trump is just another politician albeit a horrible incompetent , mentally unhinged one.

His approval rating of 37% is historically bad by a mile. GW had 60% approval after a Supreme Court election which led half the people to question his legitimacy. Between Russia and Comey it's probably about the same split here but the guy can't help himself and has no intention of doing so.13 % of his own voters disapprove of his actions
He's a man with a serious mental disorder or possibly several.

He is not fit to serve.

The sooner the congress accepts this and does the right thing the better off we will be. I think he will destroy the economy totally with his protectionism and uber nationalism . Even if somehow that's a positive nothing matters if we're glowing an iridescent green after getting nuked by a country who realizes we don't have a commander in chief at all.
Scary and highly embarrassing.

[RiverDog]

The tweeting etc, attacking every critic on social media is a much bigger deal than many say. Roosevelt # 1 was indeed a strong leader despite his quirks . His favorite saying was " walk softly and carry a big stick# that is nothing like trump, sorry.He was a truly tough as nail military guy.not to mention any off the wall thing he may have said often was never heard by the public at large in an era far before modern media .


Trump gets fairly high rating from Americans for being strong . It demonstrates how he got elected and in fact nominated . People are so politically and socially ignorant they mistake tough talk for actual back bone . A man who threatens and attacks and insults anyone in his way on social media is an exceedingly weak person mentally. He is giving our adversaries a clear window into his psyche which is frightening.

He said months ago he would cut off his Twitter account. He said a lot of things.
It's not shocking for a politician to lie and trump is just another politician albeit a horrible incompetent , mentally unhinged one.

His approval rating of 37% is historically bad by a mile. GW had 60% approval after a Supreme Court election which led half the people to question his legitimacy. Between Russia and Comey it's probably about the same split here but the guy can't help himself and has no intention of doing so.13 % of his own voters disapprove of his actions
He's a man with a serious mental disorder or possibly several.

He is not fit to serve.

The sooner the congress accepts this and does the right thing the better off we will be. I think he will destroy the economy totally with his protectionism and uber nationalism . Even if somehow that's a positive nothing matters if we're glowing an iridescent green after getting nuked by a country who realizes we don't have a commander in chief at all.
Scary and highly embarrassing.

I realize that Teddy Roosevelt was not the perfect comparison to Trump, but he's the closest POTUS in my recollection. I've read quite a bit about TR, and it is my belief that had social media been around in his time, he would have been using it as much as Trump is. The guy would never shut up. He had many of the same personality characteristics that Trump has. Criticize Trump and he fights back with his tweets. Criticize TR and he fought back with his fists. A lot of people were wary of TR's qualifications when he ascended to the Presidency after McKinley was assassinated. At 42, he is still the youngest person ever to hold the office. He proposed radical changes in government's relationship with private business, went after trusts with a fervor. The man was a ground shaker if there ever was one.

He's not going to get a lot of his protectionism proposals through Congress. Even though his party has a majority, many of them have constituents that are highly dependent on trade relationships with our global partners. I don't see a titanic shift back to pre WW2 thinking j/b Trump was elected. Trump has backed down off a lot of his proposals, and my sense is that he'll have to back down on his uber protectionism rhetoric, too. And as far as getting nuked goes, his lunacy could be a huge advantage. Like I said, Reagan's tough talk certainly had an impact on the Soviet Union as they were scared to death what he might do and it kept them in line. They respected him a lot more than they did his predecessor.

I agree with a lot of what you're saying, HT, just don't share your case of the jitters, at least not to the same degree.

[burrrton]

One change I would make would be to make the electoral vote automatic or mandatory rather than contend with these "faithless" or "Hamilton" electors.

Agree with that, but additionally think the Electoral awards should be proportional- I don't know (or care) who that would benefit more, but to me that seems to make it more fair *and* keep the two most important aspects of our system intact:

1. Proportional representation
2. Smaller states still matter

Campaigning in California (and Washington!) would matter to Republican candidates, campaigning in Texas would matter to Democratic candidates, and candidates that get 48% of a state's vote wouldn't lose 100% of their electors.

Seems like a reasonable improvement, making it more 'fair' and keeping states' say in government in place, with the added bonus that it can actually be implemented (since it's up to states how they award their electors- no Amendment necessary).

[burrrton]

The sooner the congress accepts this and does the right thing the better off we will be.

What is it you think Congress can do, HT??

[burrrton]

He's not going to get a lot of his protectionism proposals through Congress. Even though his party has a majority, many of them have constituents that are highly dependent on trade relationships with our global partners.

Exactly- Republicans don't vote in lockstep with each other based on party affiliation. It's one of their appealing characteristics to me. Ever heard the term "DINO- DEMOCRAT IN NAME ONLY!" used pejoratively?

Count on one thing: Trump is going to piss-off just as many Rs as he will Ds over the course of his administration.

I have no idea how competent he is for this job, and have many of the same fears others express here, but there is *no way* he can be considered the rock-ribbed conservative some Republicans seem to think he is based on the absolute bed-sh*tting the "left" is turning into performance art.

[Hawktawk]

[quote="burrrton"]The sooner the congress accepts this and does the right thing the better off we will be.

What is it you think Congress can do, HT??
Impeach his crazy arse. Give it a few months an we will revisit . There are so many illegal uncostitutional things already happening. With the moral eunuchs in his party they will probably let the nation fall down though.we are in such deep trouble .......

[RiverDog]

Impeach his crazy arse. Give it a few months an we will revisit . There are so many illegal uncostitutional things already happening. With the moral eunuchs in his party they will probably let the nation fall down though.we are in such deep trouble .......

They aren't impeaching him, HT.

If you were going to wet your pants this badly before he's even sworn in, then you should have voted for Hillary.

[Hawktawk]

I don't wet my pants Rd. I called this unhinged lunatic long before he won the nomination.
nothing has happened to change my mind and a 37% approval rating pre inauguration is not only highly historic but puts my long held position in a distinct majority.
As I say give it a few months and revisit the naked emperor and his nepotism riddled farce of an administration.
If he makes it 4 years it will be a miracle .

[RiverDog]

I don't wet my pants Rd. I called this unhinged lunatic long before he won the nomination.
nothing has happened to change my mind and a 37% approval rating pre inauguration is not only highly historic but puts my long held position in a distinct majority.
As I say give it a few months and revisit the naked emperor and his nepotism riddled farce of an administration.
If he makes it 4 years it will be a miracle .

You keep saying we're already in "deep trouble", not that we might be in deep trouble. That indicates to me that you are extremely nervous, ie wetting your pants. If you were that uptight, you should have done anything within the law to help keep him from attaining office, and that means voting for the one viable candidate that could have beaten him.

The approval rating is a no never mind. Trump had a negative rating of 70% so it should be no surprise that his approval rating is so low prior to the inauguration. And with his style of tweeting, insulting, dramatizing, etc, I doubt that it ever gets above 50% unless a war or 911 crisis breaks out.

[Hawktawk]

He was tweeting this morning about CIA director Brennon "leaking fake news" yesterday he said he trusts vlad Putin as much as German chancellor merkel.
One of his staunchest allies during the election tom coburn said this morning " he needs to act more presidential .

If not having my head so far up my rectum I need a windshield wiper to see where I'm going is "wetting my pants" well so be it.
I see it differently. I'm making the clarion call that we have a clear and present danger to our very survival about to be inagurated. Even the honest republicans will have had enough of this lunatic and it won't take very long.

As I say we can revisit in a couple of months. I'll rip this MF anytime I want. He's unfit and proves it daily .

And I'm more proud than ever of my vote for Johnson .

[Hawktawk]

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/ ... li=BBnb7Kz
Another republican with a ball sack.

[burrrton]

Obama... just pardoned/commuted sentence... for some dude that committed treason and a terrorist.

Holy fcking sh*t.

[RiverDog]

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/gop-lawmaker-on-trumps-lewis-tweets-dude-just-stop/ar-AAlSp00?li=BBnb7Kz
Another republican with a ball sack.

That's one of the reasons why I'm saying that you should chill out. Trump doesn't have much of a governing mandate, he lost the popular vote, many in the party did not support him, and as you have noted, his pre-inauguration job approval rating is the lowest of any incoming POTUS since they started taking the poll. That means that lawmakers in his own party won't be afraid to stand up against him. He's going to have a rough time getting his proposals through if he continually pisses off Congress.

[Hawktawk]

I just don't think many people follow the bouncing ball enough to understand why there is such danger. I agree on domestic policy . Trump has already peed off his own party to the point they will hem him in.

I'm worried about the Russia thing , the China thing. Today it was reported that 5 us intelligence branches (all of them) have an ongoing investigation into collaboration between trump campaign aides and Russia dating back far before the election .

In addition there is the secret dossier that purports Russia "monitored " citizen trump performing unspeakably disgusting things with Russian prostitutes in a Moscow motel .

Trump and Putin both deny it although Putin , while assuring America he did not have "kompromat" on trump bragged that Russia's prostitutes are "the finest in the world".

It would be pointless and stupid of Putin to reveal such information just like only an idiot would believe anything out of his mouth anyway.

It would however completely explain trumps steadfast defense of vlad Putin , his criticism of NATO and European allies while forcing an amendment to the republican platform weakening the ability of Ukraine to defend itself from further invasions from Russia who has already annexed it's territory and killed scored of its citizens.

Is trump being black mailed ? He sure acts like it.
It's extremely dangerous sending a signal of looking the other way to Putin as former soviet states protected by NATO are scared witless watching happen.
Hope to be wrong but I think we have elected a steaming pile of excrement and it's going to cost us big time.
Time will tell.

[RiverDog]

I just don't think many people follow the bouncing ball enough to understand why there is such danger. I agree on domestic policy . Trump has already peed off his own party to the point they will hem him in.

I'm worried about the Russia thing , the China thing. Today it was reported that 5 us intelligence branches (all of them) have an ongoing investigation into collaboration between trump campaign aides and Russia dating back far before the election .

In addition there is the secret dossier that purports Russia "monitored " citizen trump performing unspeakably disgusting things with Russian prostitutes in a Moscow motel .

Trump and Putin both deny it although Putin , while assuring America he did not have "kompromat" on trump bragged that Russia's prostitutes are "the finest in the world".

It would be pointless and stupid of Putin to reveal such information just like only an idiot would believe anything out of his mouth anyway.

It would however completely explain trumps steadfast defense of vlad Putin , his criticism of NATO and European allies while forcing an amendment to the republican platform weakening the ability of Ukraine to defend itself from further invasions from Russia who has already annexed it's territory and killed scored of its citizens.

Is trump being black mailed ? He sure acts like it.
It's extremely dangerous sending a signal of looking the other way to Putin as former soviet states protected by NATO are scared witless watching happen.
Hope to be wrong but I think we have elected a steaming pile of excrement and it's going to cost us big time.
Time will tell.

Careful, Hawktalk. You're beginning to buy into the Dems in denial logic.

I support a full and complete investigation into the alleged Russian meddling in our election process. If all it turns out to be is that the Russians were leaking sensitive information about Trump's opponents, then unless they planted totally fabricated and false information, I'm not all that concerned about it. Besides, Trump's opposition had conflicts of interests as well. The Clintons had a very cozy relationship with China. Here's just one example:

""The (Clinton) foundation has raised at least $42 million from foreign governments - and according to an analysis by CBS News - at least $170 million from foreign entities and individuals.
One donor - Rilin Enterprises- pledged $2 million in 2013 to the Clinton Foundation's endowment. The company is a privately-held Chinese construction and trade conglomerate and run by billionaire Wang Wenliang, who is also a delegate to the Chinese parliament. Public records show the firm has spent $1.4 million since 2012, lobbying Congress and the State Department. The firm owns a strategic port along the border with North Korea and was also one of the contractors that built the Chinese embassy in Washington.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/chinese-com ... n-in-2013/

Once again, I'm not defending Trump as much as I'm implicating Hillary. She isn't any less corrupt than Trump, which is the reason I didn't vote for either.

It's important to note that the above investigation was done by CBS News, not Fox or some other conservative leaning organization.