kalibane wrote:Riv,
No one is trying to erase Robert E. Lee from the country's history. Believe me, the people that want these monuments down want a fuller representation of this portion of American History, more similar to how Germany treats it's Nazi history, with honesty and shame.
You kind of ignored the part that the entire plan was to move the Robert E. Lee Statue in Charlottesville to a new location, exactly what you are talking about. But people on the other side of this debate about monuments don't care about that detail. They want these monuments to remain in places of reverence because they know it's an affront to people they disagree with ideologically (in the best case) or in the worst cases because they are flat out racists. Their goal isn't to preserve history, it's to continue to white wash what really happened, which is the purpose that these statues serve.
If you proposed to the people who oppose monument removal that the statues could stay provided that plaques were added that detailed the evil these men fought for and perpetrated in their own right, they would still be outraged. Their goal isn't to preserve history, it's to sanitize it. Which is why there aren't wide spread monuments through the South dedicated to John Brown, Nat Turner or Jemmy (who I bet you never heard of). I mean aren't those men part of the great southern heritage? How many schools are named after them? How many statues do they have in their honor? They want to pretend that Robert E. Lee was some genteel southern gentleman who served the confederacy out of duty and patriotism and not the man who saw slavery as a divine mandate and who also captured free black men in Pennsylvania and sent them to the south as slaves.
The people who are in denial of history are the ones fighting to keep these statues up. They are just using history as an excuse, because saying "I want to continue to celebrate racists" is not acceptable in our society anymore.
c_hawkbob wrote:Gee really?
Anyone with a brain knows that the ingredients for disaster have always been there, we just don't need a megalomaniac in the most important political position on the planet stirring all the wrong sh!t.
You're not the only only one here really paying attention.
RiverDog wrote:Glad you jumped in, ASF. I enjoy reading your takes.
Yea, you can go all the way back to Truman if you want to lay blame for the North Korea situation. It's been an open wound that's been festering for over 60 years. I'm not worried that Trump is going to push the button. All indications are that we are going to let South Korea and Japan make the call on any offensive action, and they are both extremely reluctant because of the devastating consequences their countries would suffer even if the conflict were non nuclear. The only way Trump acts unilaterally is if our territory is attacked directly. As far as China goes, they have a lot more to lose than we do if they were to break ties with us and side completely with North Korea. They're bluffing big time by threatening to join forces with North Korea if we were to attack.
I, too, believe that the events in Charlottesville were not the result of who was in office. The neo Nazis and KKK took the very public removal attempts of what they regard as "their" symbol as a slap in the face. That was what lit the fuse, not the election of Donald Trump.
One thing that Charlottesville did was that it brought out just how much of a racist Trump is. If anyone had any doubts, they should be erased by now. I'd be curious if savvyman and monkey have changed their opinions in light of recent events.
Aseahawkfan wrote:
Ok. So your post was the typical overreaction by a Trump hater. I get it. He's suddenly taken us to the brink of nuclear war and it's not the North Korean psychopath building nuclear weapons and threatening to us them that did it. Sure. Trump's fault along with a host of other problems that occurred during nearly every administration including Bill Clinton and his China and Russia campaign contribution scandal that was completely ignored while the Democrats were trying to paint Trump as the Russian spy.
Aseahawkfan wrote:I don't think Trump is a racist.
Old but Slow wrote:Trump is a victim. His father was a KKK member and was arrested as one in NY. We are all sons of our fathers (sorry Sis, and daughters) and Trump is exactly that. A grifter, con man, opportunist, and racist. It is not his fault. He should be excused. What could he do, disgrace his father or screw as many suckers as he could? The answer, of course came down to money. What question?
kalibane wrote:This sentiment is almost as dangerous as it is reductive. My grandfather was a racist and a homophobe. My mother under threats of being disowned organized and marched for civil rights in the 60's for black people and later for gay people. In turn my parents taught pacifism and are more anti-guns than anything except racism. I am pro 2nd amendment.
Parents help contribute to who their children become but ultimately people are responsible for their own beliefs and actions. Trump is no victim in this. And he will not and should not be excused.
Largent80 wrote:Lol. Bannon BANNED.
Omg I hope he opens his mouth
burrrton wrote:LOL- your daily example that this country is losing its sh*t:
http://www.fox5ny.com/news/274589821-story
RiverDog wrote:I'm surprised that you didn't mention something a little closer to home:
http://www.tri-cityherald.com/news/loca ... 97087.html
burrrton wrote:Heh- hadn't seen that. Like I said, though, I don't really have a problem with removing actual tributes to traitors, of which I'd consider that (I think both sides of the argument make valid points).
But it's 2017, so people are rendered unable to stay sane, so we're removing red squares that have Xs on them. Because flags and stuff.
I suspect what's going to happen...and what should happen...is that they'll re-dedicate the street to some other historical figure named Lee.
burrrton wrote:Bannon says he's leaving the White House and "going to war"- this ought to be entertaining.
burrrton wrote:Bannon says he's leaving the White House and "going to war"- this ought to be entertaining.
Seahawks4Ever wrote:RD; Tell me, what is it exactly about Steve Bannon that reminds you of James Carville? I know for a fact that Steve Bannon is hell bent on destroying our republic and quite frankly I don't remember James Carville ever trying or even suggesting that our "established government" needs to be destroyed.
You say you don't listen to Rush Limbaugh, well, maybe you had better start. Limbaugh said today among other things that white power groups, KU Klux Klan, Neo-Nazis, and other virulent militant right-wing hate groups ae "not the problem". Who IS the problem according to Rush? Those that OPPOSE the right wing hate groups, that's who.
Bannon intends to start a new media network that will be programmed to the right of FOX "News". It was a project that Bannon and Roger Aisles were working on just before Roger died. Dude, there is the Republican Party and there is the TRUMP PARTY. Guess which one is gaining adherents and which one is bleeding members to the other?? Oh, and Democrats have NOTHING to crow about, there are TWO or even Three Democratic Partys and all 3 are HEMROGING voters to either the TRUMP PARTY or a ULTRA right wing candidate and/or elected official who is preaching NATIONALISM!!!
Then you have the Old Guard Obama, Clinton, Pelosi, Shumer, etc... Democrats and the Bernie Sanders so called "progressive" wing. One thing I remember well from last years election. The voters who said they would either vote for Sanders or Trump. Sanders was flabbergasted that ANYONE who could support him could also support Trump. So, what was the common denominator?? Nationalism, America First, look out for us Americans FIRST and yada, yada, yada...
One thing that those like Bannon and Limbaugh say that is TRUE and that is that OUR NATION IS ON THE CUSP of the 2nd. CIVIL WAR. I know this to be true because I have been warning of this happening since the early 1980's. Everybody sneered at me and mocked me and called me a "conspiracy theorist" and nobody wanted to hear let alone even consider that I might be right. Well, that was early on, I have watched for years as more and more people became aware that this nation was in great peril, of our own making. I hoped against hope that we wouldn't turn to a despot, but it sure looks like we are primed for the kill.
c_hawkbob wrote:Cool that it's written by Eugene Robinson. (Yea I know it's not our Eugene Robinson, but still ...)
burrrton wrote:LOL:
http://www.foxnews.com/entertainment/20 ... -name.html
The country isn't out of sh*t to lose yet, apparently.
burrrton wrote:Hey, I'm not saying it might not be a sound business decision, but the fact that an Asian guy's name might cause controversy is about as 2017 as it gets.
Largent80 wrote:I haven't watched anything except a few college football games from there in the last few years. It is totally in the shitter.
RiverDog wrote:I don't think that there's any doubt that he's a racist, and I felt that way long before Charlottesville. Outside of David Duke, I can't think of a politician on the national stage since George Wallace (who later repented in his ways) that's as much of a racist as Trump is.
RiverDog wrote:My father grew up as a household strength racist, meaning that he wasn't anywhere close to being a KKK member or believing in white supremacy....and hated the Nazis. He was born in 1925 and his attitude simply reflected what was for his day mainstream thought for white males of that era, kind of a separate-but-equal, did not believe in mixed marriages, etc. But as his two boys were growing up and made friends with blacks and Hispanics, and as the civil rights movement peaked in the early 70's, he changed. That doesn't mean that I didn't love and respect my father, it just means that I believed that his original attitudes on one subject were wrong. I sincerely believe that my dad's attitudes were to some degree changed by his children rather than the other way around.
Environmental conditions can affect attitudes and beliefs, but as mentally healthy individuals, we are all born with an ability to tell right from wrong and like Kal said, at some point become responsible for our own psychological makeup.
Trump's attitudes on immigrants reflect his racism, which is why I opposed his executive order in the opening days of his administration, even the revised one that made it technically legal. I don't trust his motives. I have a hard time taking what he says on social issues at face value and will question anything that comes out of his mouth regarding that subject.
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