obiken wrote:That's a bit of a reach to me guy, he is certainly in the top 10. Who did I fear as a Hawk fan more than anyone? John Elway.
NorthHawk wrote:He may be the best today, but how do you compare with years past when the defenders could take liberties with the WR's down field?
Stats don't have much meaning when in prior eras DB's could clock a receiver for coming into his zone as long as the ball wasn't in the air.
Today, receivers can run all over the field without being molested and find openings where it was much more difficult earlier.
QB's like Tarkenton or Manning in those eras to name just two may have been far more effective than Rodgers given the rule changes.
NorthHawk wrote:I see what you are getting at, but I look at it a little differently.
I try to think who would give the worst teams of their era a chance to be a playoff team.
Would Montana have been able to take the Bucs to the playoffs those winless years? I doubt it, but he probably would have won them a few more games.
Same thing with Brady or Rodgers. How well would they have done with if they had played for the Browns the last 10 years and would we think the same of them?
I doubt it.
The conclusion I come to is the GOAT's are players who lucked into the perfect place for them to achieve their status.
Without head coaches who put them in the best possible position to exploit their talents, and surround them with a supporting cast including position coaches that amplify those talents,
they would in all probability never reach the levels they have.
We only have to look at our own Russell Wilson.
Here's a guy with immense talent who will never get the recognition in Seattle because of the philosophy of Defense first and conservative, ball control Offense.
That combination would hinder Rodgers and Brady, too but they have the advantage of HC's who are either Offensively minded or in Belichick's case OK with being creative
and using players to their advantage.
I don't look at it like that. There are plenty of great teams with great QBs that just can't finish at the right time. Russell Wilson is in that category now. He had a chance to elevate his team to a dynasty by winning back to back championships and he screwed up. There's not amount of talking or excuse making that will change the outcome. He made a bad decision and a bad throw on the most important play of his career and it cost his team a dynasty and him the kind of elite status you obtain from back to back championships. It's what separates the Russell Wilson's from the Montana's and the Brady's.
NorthHawk wrote:Rodgers escapism and arm talent is great, no doubt and we will be looking back at his career at some point with much more appreciation as we always do with opponents that are a pain to play against.
I had never considered Russ may have "plateaued" but it would seem to be fairly accurate. The point I was making about the play in the Super Bowl is that you don't limit your best player or players by making that particular call. And that's what that play call did. It negated the talent of the QB, so even if his pass was perfect, it would still have been one of the worst play calls that any team got away with.
However, the real problem is the Offense has regressed the last few years largely because of an ineffective OL so that may be part of Wilson's struggles to finish. That half second that just an average OL would provide or give the run game enough of a push to win games has been missing the last 2 years. We will never know how good he could have been with an offensive minded HC or a creative OC. It seems to me that we are running the same plays we did 2 years ago and opposing Defenses must know how to defend them. It's easier to game plan when there's nothing new under the Offensive sun in Seattle.
Hawktawk wrote:I completely agree with your take on the disastrous play. You take away the read option etc. Then you expect kearse to get a free release off of goonish mugger browner and get a rub on butler while your 4th wideout only due to injuries is supposed to be the money man beating the hottest player in the pats secondary .Not only does browner stone kearse in his tracks he actually reaches out and gets a tiny piece of lockettes jersey slowing him just enough. Russ throws the ball 3 feet further to the inside than necessary and lock is lunging for the ball but butler beats him by a whisker. But bottom line Russ threw a bad ball, aimed and soft and too far in front obviously. He took the blame as he should. I hope Seattle has a chance at redemption before the window slams shut .
trents wrote:"Here's a guy with immense talent who will never get the recognition in Seattle because of the philosophy of Defense first and conservative, ball control Offense.
That combination would hinder Rodgers and Brady, too but they have the advantage of HC's who are either Offensively minded or in Belichick's case OK with being creative
and using players to their advantage."
I would argue that New England does run a conservative, ball control offense. They just do it with a short and medium range passing game that is effective because of its precision of execution and the best pass blocking O line in the NFL year in and year out.
I also think that RW may be the most dynamic QB in the NFL right now but the coaches need to turn him loose to be what he is.
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