River Dog in London

[RiverDog]

I thought I'd share a few things regarding our experience with our road trip to London last weekend. I'll try to keep it short.

The Brits are into NFL football big time, more so than I ever realized. Everywhere we went there were people wearing NFL jerseys. IG and myself personally observed at least one jersey from every one of the 32 NFL teams. We speculated that some people wore those jerseys or adapted teams simply because they liked the colors or designs of the jersey. We saw a lot of Miami Dolphins jerseys but only one from the Buffalo Bills.

On Friday evening, we attended a rally at a pub by London Bridge that was designated as Seahawk central. The highlight of my evening there was that I got the opportunity to shake hands with Walter Jones, only the 2nd Hall of Famer I've ever shook hands with, the first being Bob Feller when I was 13 years old. We met several German ladies that had traveled to London for the game and were big Seahawk fans. I would estimate that about 75% of the people in the establishment were from the Pacific Northwest. The word is that the Hawks travel as well as any fan base in the league.

There were a very large number of both Seahawk fans that had traveled across the pond for the game and locals that had adapted us as their team. On game day, the crowd was at least 70% pro Seahawks, and the players were fully aware of the support they received from us 12's. For example, when Seabass would kick a touchback on a kickoff, the coverage team would continue into the end zone and encourage the fans to cheer.

There were some good an bad things about the venue. The amenities were excellent, superior to most if not all the NFL stadiums I've been in, with very wide concourses and short waits at restrooms (called 'toilets' in the UK) and at concession stands. Lots of places to sit and eat or consume beverages. The bad thing about the venue was that it was not built for American football, and as a consequence, the seated areas were significantly further from the field of play. However, all the seats were covered and offered ample protection from the elements. The announced crowd was slightly less than 85,000, and every seat appeared taken. Ticket prices were reasonable, a much better deal than what one could get off the secondary market for a game in Seattle.

As a result of the trip, my attitude regarding establishing a team in London has changed, but I still don't think it's a viable concept. The logistics would be a nightmare. On my return trip, I was in the air for 8 hours from Heathrow to Minneapolis, then another 2.5 hours back into Pasco. I can't imagine having to endure that kind of travel 10 times a year. A team based in London would be at a competitive disadvantage in free agency.

I would recommend this trip to any football fan. It was a fabulos experience.

[NorthHawk]

I'm glad you had a good time and I'm surprised that our brand of Football has caught on so well.
Apparently there is a big NFL following in Germany, too so maybe there is a future in Europe.
The problem is the travel like you said. Basing a team where they would have to travel 8 games
would mean no game is in the same time zone and by the end of the year the players could be
worn out. I would imagine they would try to schedule 2 away games in a row for a London based
team so they could get their road games in much more efficiently and perhaps in 4 road trips.
The other thing is I've read some articles lately that suggest another supersonic type of passenger
jet is being developed which could significantly ease the travel issues. To be able to go
to London from the West Coast in 5 hrs or maybe less would be a huge hurdle for establishing a
franchise there.

[RiverDog]

I'm glad you had a good time and I'm surprised that our brand of Football has caught on so well.
Apparently there is a big NFL following in Germany, too so maybe there is a future in Europe.
The problem is the travel like you said. Basing a team where they would have to travel 8 games
would mean no game is in the same time zone and by the end of the year the players could be
worn out. I would imagine they would try to schedule 2 away games in a row for a London based
team so they could get their road games in much more efficiently and perhaps in 4 road trips.
The other thing is I've read some articles lately that suggest another supersonic type of passenger
jet is being developed which could significantly ease the travel issues. To be able to go
to London from the West Coast in 5 hrs or maybe less would be a huge hurdle for establishing a
franchise there.

Supersonic travel would help teams on the east coast, but one of the things that torpedoed the previous supersonic effort that took root in the '60's here in the US was the noise issue created from the sonic booms over a land mass. IMO we're stuck with conventional travel until they can develop some sort of sub orbital transportation system that actually goes out of the atmosphere, which at this point would be hugely expensive.

IMO the only way to make an overseas franchise work is if they could establish a 4 team division based in western Europe.

One idea that I heard being tossed around was going to a 17 game regular season and requiring each team to play at a neutral site, which would bump the international series to 16 games, but even that proposal would require some odd scheduling arrangements. But I do expect them to expand the international series to 7-8 games and add locations like China to the itinerary.

[burrrton]

Nice, RD! Thanks for reporting in- sounds like a fantastic trip.

[jshawaii22]

The problem with a team in England is the home team would have to play 8 games in the USA and then get their bye week and then play 8 games at home, or something similar. No US team can travel weeks #1, 2, 3 without getting a bye week that would be unfair. The England team can only travel once, or they would need more bye weeks, too. I just can't see the NFLPA agreeing to anything that would screw the players and the accepted travel schedule.

js

[Aseahawkfan]

Glad to hear you had fun. Sounds like you'll do it again next time they go.

[RiverDog]

The problem with a team in England is the home team would have to play 8 games in the USA and then get their bye week and then play 8 games at home, or something similar. No US team can travel weeks #1, 2, 3 without getting a bye week that would be unfair. The England team can only travel once, or they would need more bye weeks, too. I just can't see the NFLPA agreeing to anything that would screw the players and the accepted travel schedule.

js

There was a couple of years just before the Houston Texans started play that the league was unbalanced with 31 teams, meaning that at least one team had a bye in every week, so it wouldn't be unprecedented for the NFL to force teams to take their bye in Weeks 1-3.

But you're right, under the current 32 team arrangement, a team in London is logistically unworkable. The only way it would work would be if they could establish an entire division of 4 teams in western Europe, but even under that scenerio, each of those 4 teams would have to play 6 road games in North America. And that doesn't even begin to address the problems those teams would have in attracting free agents and coaches.

Until they come up with some sort of transportation system that dramatically reduces the transit time across the pond, the league is going to have to be content with the current arrangement of playing a limited number of games overseas.

[c_hawkbob]

The London franchise could have a US base of operations (say Jacksonville ... ), have off seasons and training camps as well as their first three away games of the year stateside before spending the balance of the year across the pond. That would still leave 2 or three trips of back to back (to back?) away games, which while not great, wouldn't be that enormous a burden. The NFL has already established (or at least is still establishing) that sending teams to London for one game a year is not a problem.

I think, given an east coast US site and SST travel it's entirely doable in the not too distant future. I also think it's gonna happen regardless of what we think.

[RiverDog]

The London franchise could have a US base of operations (say Jacksonville ... ), have off seasons and training camps as well as their first three away games of the year stateside before spending the balance of the year across the pond. That would still leave 2 or three trips of back to back (to back?) away games, which while not great, wouldn't be that enormous a burden. The NFL has already established (or at least is still establishing) that sending teams to London for one game a year is not a problem.

I think, given an east coast US site and SST travel it's entirely doable in the not too distant future. I also think it's gonna happen regardless of what we think.

IMO a viable SST, ie 100+ passenger airliner, is decades down the road, and probably not in our lifetime. There isn't a big enough market for airline manufacturers to justify the developmental costs that would accompany such a project. To give you an example, Boeing's investment in the 787, a conventional airliner, topped $32 billion and took 10 years to turn a profit. The cost of developing an SST would be many more times that amount.

But I do agree with you that it's probably going to happen at some point within the next 10 years, at least on a temporary or experimental basis like a team needing a temporary venue while a new stadium is being constructed ala the Raiders.

[c_hawkbob]

I dunno, there seems to be evidence that it's years, not decades till we see viable Super Sonic air travel. This is from a 2017 article:

“Aircraft engineering has significantly improved since the time when the Concorde was flying,” Hammond’s report notes. “With lighter materials, more efficient engines, better computer modeling, and more experience, it is more than possible to create an aircraft today that is both faster and more affordable than the Concorde.”

https://www.wired.com/2017/03/supersoni ... king-boom/

Which led me to this website https://boomsupersonic.com/ telling us that:

Japan Airlines has invested $10M in Boom and pre-ordered 20 aircraft, joining Virgin GroupVirgin a future Boom operator.

[NorthHawk]

I dunno, there seems to be evidence that it's years, not decades till we see viable Super Sonic air travel. This is from a 2017 article:

Aircraft engineering has significantly improved since the time when the Concorde was flying,” Hammond’s report notes. “With lighter materials, more efficient engines, better computer modeling, and more experience, it is more than possible to create an aircraft today that is both faster and more affordable than the Concorde.

https://www.wired.com/2017/03/supersoni ... king-boom/

Which led me to this website https://boomsupersonic.com/ telling us that:

Japan Airlines has invested $10M in Boom and pre-ordered 20 aircraft, joining Virgin GroupVirgin a future Boom operator.

Wow, that's interesting. I knew some were working on it, but I didn't know there was a company getting attention from large airlines.

This comment is interesting:

"Boom's airliner is designed to maximize efficiency while producing a “boom” at least 30 times quieter than Concorde's.

There are many common misconceptions about sonic boom. Other commonplace noises, such as thunder, are louder than sonic booms. Sonic booms generated by commercial aircraft at cruise altitude do not break windows or cause any damage to structures. Sonic booms generated by an F-4 flying below 100 feet have been experienced by humans with no hearing damage or other injury reported. These booms are over 100,000 times stronger than what Boom's aircraft will produce."

[Hawktawk]

Great read RD

[trents]

I don't really envision an expansion team in London or Germany or anywhere across the pond. As you said RD, the travel logistics would be a nightmare.

But what I can envision is American football catching on over there just as soccer has caught on in the USA. I can envision an "EFL" (European Football League) and there being a World Cup equivalent and Olympic teams some day. It already has happened with basketball which we managed to export overseas. There is also a potential European talent pool for the NFL just as there has been for the NBA.

[idhawkman]

I don't really envision an expansion team in London or Germany or anywhere across the pond. As you said RD, the travel logistics would be a nightmare.

But what I can envision is American football catching on over there just as soccer has caught on in the USA. I can envision an "EFL" (European Football League) and there being a World Cup equivalent and Olympic teams some day. It already has happened with basketball which we managed to export overseas. There is also a potential European talent pool for the NFL just as there has been for the NBA.

I thought there was a league like that before but that it was closed down.

What I could envision is a setup like Little League baseball where we have the NFL champion play one more game against the RoW Champion for the World championship.

[trents]

Yeah, I can see that.

[RiverDog]

But what I can envision is American football catching on over there just as soccer has caught on in the USA. I can envision an "EFL" (European Football League) and there being a World Cup equivalent and Olympic teams some day. It already has happened with basketball which we managed to export overseas. There is also a potential European talent pool for the NFL just as there has been for the NBA.

Basketball has been played in Europe for nearly a century. It became an Olympic sport in 1936, so there was already a ton of interest with lots of local, home grown players, some of whom went on to play at major colleges and/or the NBA (remember Detlef Schremp and Christain Welp at UW?). That is far from the case with American football, which is strictly an American and Canadian venture with only a few random specialists, ie kickers and punters, that haven't played in the USA or Canada.

Given the start up expense and the ever growing safety concerns, I can't forsee American football taking root as a viable participant sport anywhere outside of North America.

[obiken]

Thats cool, I always wanted to meet Irish, Global, and you most of all, in real life. Duck b man, not so much!

[idhawkman]

It might be too late to organize one this year but we should do another "Corner Bar" game next year. If we could agree which game early enough, we could all plan the trip.

[burrrton]

I may be going to Thursday Night Football in a couple weeks. Anyone else going?

[RiverDog]

It might be too late to organize one this year but we should do another "Corner Bar" game next year. If we could agree which game early enough, we could all plan the trip.

The bar you are referring to is The Triangle, or Historical Triangle. It's damn small and you have to arrive by 10:00 am for a 1pm game just to find a spot to stand.

I'd certainly be up for a get together. I usually attend a couple of home games.

[obiken]

How about the Cigar Room at Kells in PDX??!! Thats my hangout!

[idhawkman]

How about the Cigar Room at Kells in PDX??!! Thats my hangout!

I'm not from Seattle Obi so I'm not familiar with what PDX is. Is it a section of town or is it something else?

[idhawkman]

The bar you are referring to is The Triangle, or Historical Triangle. It's damn small and you have to arrive by 10:00 am for a 1pm game just to find a spot to stand.

I'd certainly be up for a get together. I usually attend a couple of home games.

Yes, I remember it being quite small the last time we met there (PI days). It was great meeting IG, you, OBS and others. Its great to put names with faces, etc. There's not much space to tailgate at the Link as there used to be but if a tailgate is better, I'm up for that, too.

When next year's schedule comes out I'll see about coordinating and interest level for one of the first 6 or 7 games. (after 1 Nov, it can be tricky getting through the passes for me and you Riv).