Russell “pick 6” Wilson

[Hawktawk]

Wow.. I dunno. A week ago he has a perfect rating on the road, has played exceptional most of the last 6 weeks including the Rams loss but now he's a second tier guy I completely agree he had a bad game, most inaccurate of his season and the third game of the year the loss is more on him than anyone. He was shockingly inaccurate at key moments and of his 3 career pick 6s 2 have come in losses this season in year 7. He's still an elite franchise guy though.

I don't blame Moore for not squeezing an 80 mph missile that was redirected a few feet from his hands. the dude has been clutch. And for all the praise of the defense being good enough last I checked they let SD go 96 and 83 yards on their first 2 drives, allowed them to convert a 3rd and 15 by rushing 3 and giving Rivers all day to find a receiver they let get 10 yards behind them. They let a second tier back coming off an injury average 7.1 ypc while going for a buck 25 and house it from deep. They got gifted 4 points by the Chargers former kicker as well.

The officials get more than an honorable mention here as well.

It was just one of those days. The tragedy isn't losing to great teams in hard fought battles. It's in losing to Kase Keenum despite picking him off 3 times and losing to the bears before they had gotten their footing, courtesy of another pick 6 and a few minus 15 or 20 yard run backwards sacks. That's what dug the hole in this murderers row of a schedule. This game reminded me of the first 2, not the next 5 minus AZ and that includes Russ and of course Seabass who makes me as nervous as a drug mule going through customs every time he lines up. I've never been more curious, more clueless about a seahawks team than this one and it hasn't changed. I think 6-2 is absolutely the minimum number to get to the tourney. If they play like much of the last 6 week they can do that or exceed it. If we see last Sunday repeated they might go 2-6

[c_hawkbob]

There seems to be a perception that other QB's that people believe to be elite never have bad games, never make mistakes and are never responsible for a loss. I get it, they don't follow every single move of other elite QB's the way they do Seahawks QB's so what they are left with is the highlight reel version of them as perfect, or very near perfect ...

Whatever. Our guy has broken and will break many more NFL records and barring injury will wind up in the Hall of Fame, where his bust will end the "is he elite" argument forever.

[RiverDog]

Our guy has broken and will break many more NFL records and barring injury will wind up in the Hall of Fame, where his bust will end the "is he elite" argument forever.

IMO he doesn't have a snowball's chance in hell of the HOF if he stays on his current track he/us have been on over the past 3 years. The only way it happens is if he were to get a couple more rings/SB MVP's and/or finds himself in another system other than Pete's that allows him to build a stat record that will rival guys like Brees, Brady, Manning, et al.

[Anthony]

update

IMO he doesn't have a snowball's chance in hell of the HOF if he stays on his current track he/us have been on over the past 3 years. The only way it happens is if he were to get a couple more rings/SB MVP's and/or finds himself in another Nordstrom - 1617 6th Ave. - Seattle, WA 98101 other than Pete's that allows him to build a stat record that will rival guys like Brees, Brady, Manning, et al.

Thats an opinion, i dont agree with, but hey its a reasonable opinion at least. Fyi last year he did something no other qb has ever done, and it will be on his hof resume and it will matter. That said all those qbs you mentioned have been in the league far longer and Wilson has plenty of time to strengthen his hof resume.

[NorthHawk]

It seems a lot of consideration is given to stats and with our philosophy on Offense, it wouldn't bode well for any QB to get the numbers required for HoF consideration.

[Anthony]

It seems a lot of consideration is given to stats and with our philosophy on Offense, it wouldn't bode well for any QB to get the numbers required for HoF consideration.

Depends on the stats, if yards perhaps, but tfs, complt%, ypa, qb rating, wins not an issue

[NorthHawk]

He's not seen to be prolific like Marino, Brees, Brady, Montana, and others mentioned.
He's seen to be a running QB which in some circles is a negative, and still the stigma of being a "game manager" who needs a dominating Defense to win.
Added to being out of the large market and it will be an uphill climb for him unless he wins a few more SB's.

[RiverDog]

It seems a lot of consideration is given to stats and with our philosophy on Offense, it wouldn't bode well for any QB to get the numbers required for HoF consideration.

That's the point. Pete's offensive philosphy isn't geared towards featuring the quarterback nearly as much as teams like the Packers or Saints are. Unless something changes, ie a new head coach or, heaven forbid, Russell goes to a different team, it's going to be very challenging for him to build a HOF resume. The only thing that would trump that would be for him to win a couple of SB MVP's.

[HumanCockroach]

Human, he's Brees or Tarkington lite. He is a tremendous 4th quarter competitor, but I agree with Popey that he could use a little more fire in the 1 and 2nd quarter. Is he elite? Depends on your definition.

Which is exactly what I was saying. It's subjective. There's time, and there's room to grow. I don't take issue with those that think that the performance he provides is elite level, but I find it fascinating that those that feel that way, take issue with people that feel what he's providing isn't to the elite level yet.

In essence, unless you believe this is as good as he gets, and also believe that what we've seen the last couple years, is first ballot HOF, if he retired tomorrow, he isn't in the elite category. It takes years of unparalleled success, consistency, and dominance with all the warts that come along with team issues ( protection, mediocre receivers, lack of running game or defense etc) before that honorific belongs.

If you feel he's elite? More power to you. Enjoy that feeling. Nor going to spend time poking holes in the excuses some make about why other QBs had everything in the world forever. It shows a lack of understanding of football, Wilson has never had "no help" , that simply isn't the case, he's had issues, just like EVERY QB has.

[HumanCockroach]

We saw what a QB featured offense looks like the last several years. The entire time, people blamed the line, and lack of a running game for Wilson's struggles..... I'm not sure, that it's the system that's to blame. Wilson averaged around 40 throws a game last year, on par with Brees, Rodgers etc. When he played poorly, it was the lines fault, or the running games fault, or the OCs fault, or the receivers fault, or he was good enough, and it was the D's fault...

I'm not basing my opinion on a single bad game, or a single bad quarter, but his play over the entirety of his career. He's a great QB, but being great doesn't vault you into that category IMHO.

[RiverDog]

We saw what a QB featured offense looks like the last several years. The entire time, people blamed the line, and lack of a running game for Wilson's struggles..... I'm not sure, that it's the system that's to blame. Wilson averaged around 40 throws a game last year, on par with Brees, Rodgers etc. When he played poorly, it was the lines fault, or the running games fault, or the OCs fault, or the receivers fault, or he was good enough, and it was the D's fault...

I'm not basing my opinion on a single bad game, or a single bad quarter, but his play over the entirety of his career. He's a great QB, but being great doesn't vault you into that category IMHO.

I'm not sure if I'd classify a Darrrell Bevell/Tom Cable-ran offense as "QB featured", but I hear what you're saying with regard to the rationalization of Russell's struggles.

[Hawktawk]

Russ already has numerous NFL records. hes been to 2 superbowls and won one. hes one of the most dangerruss dual threat qbs of all time, certainly one of the most successful in terms of hardware. Hes absolutely going to the HOF barring some type of absolute collapse otr career ending injury assuming he plays another 5 years or so.

[idhawkman]

Russ already has numerous NFL records. hes been to 2 superbowls and won one. hes one of the most dangerruss dual threat qbs of all time, certainly one of the most successful in terms of hardware. Hes absolutely going to the HOF barring some type of absolute collapse otr career ending injury assuming he plays another 5 years or so.

I think it would be much more accurate if you had that sentence in past tense since he isn't really a run threat anymore.

[Anthony]

I think it would be much more accurate if you had that sentence in past tense since he isn't really a run threat anymore.

Except as teams keep saying they still game plan and are very very worries about him running, also it is not just the pure running, also extending plays etc.

[idhawkman]

Except as teams keep saying they still game plan and are very very worries about him running, also it is not just the pure running, also extending plays etc.

Yep, keep believing that but you should be a little old to be believing in fairy tales, aren't you?

[RiverDog]

Except as teams keep saying they still game plan and are very very worries about him running, also it is not just the pure running, also extending plays etc.

Teams game plan against a lot of quarterbacks' running ability, assign spies in certain situations, etc. Russell is by no means unique in that regard: Cam Newton, Dak Prescott, Marcus Mariota, et al.

Perhaps it's by design, but Russell is not amongst the top rushing QB's so far this season, as Newton, Blake Bortles, Prescott, Mariota, and others all have more yards per game rushing. Heck, even Aaron Rodgers has more rushing yards per game than Russell does.

And I'm perfectly fine with that, except that I do think there's been a situation or two where Russell could have kept on the read option or taken off on a passing attempt.

[Anthony]

Yep, keep believing that but you should be a little old to be believing in fairy tales, aren't you?

Not a fairy tale when you see it on every RO, or in the way they rush, or in the big plays that result from his scrambling. Just because you want to be right does not mean you are. And your not. The announcers say and show it, players say it, coaches say it. All this equals you being the one believing in fairy tales.

[Hawktawk]

I think it would be much more accurate if you had that sentence in past tense since he isn't really a run threat anymore.

Hes been battling a hamstring all year. Maybe hes breaking down after getting pounded for 7 seasons or maybe he just has a hamstring issue but in most of the wins and also the loss to the Rams he's been deadly accurate as a passer in and out of the pocket and if I recall he rushed for a couple of first downs last sunday. When his wheels are right he's a 4.5 guy and definitely a threat to gash a team with his feet.

[RiverDog]

Hes been battling a hamstring all year. Maybe hes breaking down after getting pounded for 7 seasons or maybe he just has a hamstring issue but in most of the wins and also the loss to the Rams he's been deadly accurate as a passer in and out of the pocket and if I recall he rushed for a couple of first downs last sunday. When his wheels are right he's a 4.5 guy and definitely a threat to gash a team with his feet.

If his hamstring is what's causing him to run less, it's not very apparent. He's still able to make sharp cuts and pivots, something he wouldn't be able to do on a weak hammy.

He wasn't "deadly accurate" last Sunday, which is concerning. Hopefully it was just an aberration.

[c_hawkbob]

Hes been battling a hamstring all year. Maybe hes breaking down after getting pounded for 7 seasons or maybe he just has a hamstring issue but in most of the wins and also the loss to the Rams he's been deadly accurate as a passer in and out of the pocket and if I recall he rushed for a couple of first downs last sunday. When his wheels are right he's a 4.5 guy and definitely a threat to gash a team with his feet.

If his hamstring is what's causing him to run less, it's not very apparent. He's still able to make sharp cuts and pivots, something he wouldn't be able to do on a weak hammy.

He wasn't "deadly accurate" last Sunday, which is concerning. Hopefully it was just an aberration.

Huh. I've been watching him with the hammy in mind and it seems to me he's moving exactly as he would favoring a hamstring ... I thinks it's pretty clearly why he hasn't had the quick cuts and spin moves we're used to seeing from him.

Pete said, when he revealed the issue, that he was still good going in one direction and that we'd still see more design runs or RPOs, and I think we have seen some of that, but not the ankle breaking quicks that we're used to from him.

[RiverDog]

Huh. I've been watching him with the hammy in mind and it seems to me he's moving exactly as he would favoring a hamstring ... I thinks it's pretty clearly why he hasn't had the quick cuts and spin moves we're used to seeing from him.

Pete said, when he revealed the issue, that he was still good going in one direction and that we'd still see more design runs or RPOs, and I think we have seen some of that, but not the ankle breaking quicks that we're used to from him.

Are you like a friend of mine that treats the term "huh" as a code word for "bullchit"?

I guess it depends on how you look at it. From what I've seen, he's made some very good pivots and spin moves.

As far as our not running more designed QB runs or RPO's, I had assumed that it was because our new OC doesn't prefer them or hasn't gotten around to implementing them. But since they haven't come out and addressed it, your guess is as good as mine.

Bottom line is that for whatever reason, Russell has not been running the ball as often or for as much yardage as he has in the past, meaning that teams don't have to respect him as much as they used to. Personally I would rather he run sparingly, as he has, only when the opportunity presents itself or in a critical situation where we have to get a first down and a designed run/RPO represents our best chance of success.

[c_hawkbob]

I was gonna say that when I read your post I literally said to myself "huh, that's not what I see at all" ... but I like your answer better so we'll got with that!

[HumanCockroach]

. When his wheels are right he's a 4.5 guy and definitely a threat to gash a team with his feet

Is he? I'm not so iron clad sure about that as many seen to be. He's slowed down the last couple seasons, at least from what I've seen. A loss in speed isn't just possible, but a given, Wilson isn't exempt from that.

I've seen him caught from behind the last couple years by linebackers and lineman. Not a normal occurrence early in his career, when he was running away from corners. Perhaps it's the abuse, but anybody thinking he wouldn't take hits in the NFL is watching a different sport than I am. Father time always wins, and adding mass isn't what's going to help with speed, durability yes, but not speed.

That's not to say he lacks it, just pointing out that I'm not so sure his speed is what it was, hamstring or no hamstring.

[Hawktawk]

There seems to be a perception that other QB's that people believe to be elite never have bad games, never make mistakes and are never responsible for a loss. I get it, they don't follow every single move of other elite QB's the way they do Seahawks QB's so what they are left with is the highlight reel version of them as perfect, or very near perfect ...

Whatever. Our guy has broken and will break many more NFL records and barring injury will wind up in the Hall of Fame, where his bust will end the "is he elite" argument forever.

I love this Bob. Truth. No QB can have a bunch of comebacks without having been behind, sometimes way behind and quite often having been responsible for being behind by fumbling snaps, throwing picks and missing open guys. Look no further than The GOAT in manys minds Tom Brady vs the Falcons a couple of years ago in early Feb. They were down by 25 with a few minutes left in the 3rd and it was because Brady looked about 45 for that period of time, threw a pick 6, looked totally off, helpless in the face of a withering pass rush. Of course it's not a comeback except Shanahan decided not to run the ball the rest of the game, the defense of the falcons got winded and the rest is history. But Brady took what he was given and used it to the fullest.

I was at the Clink in 2013 watching the Hawks play Tampa. Courtesy of some horrible officiating, our tenth O line configuration of the year, our defense getting gashed by the run, poor play by Russ and turnovers we were down 21 before the half. Fans were booing and I said STFU its not even halftime, Russ has this..And sure enough he notched the greatest comeback in team history despite the vaunted D giving up over 200 yards rushing.........Its a 60 minute game, not 59. Its not a game of how, its a game of how many in the immortal words of Lee Trevino

This fan base is so GD spoiled nit picking Wilson all the time. Hes elite, he's our guy, we never had anyone remotely as physically talented except moon and it was way too late in his career. We never had anyone as tough nor have 99% of the teams that ever took the field.If he plays another 5 or 6 years and puts up good numbers he's in the HOF considering that he's already got some significant NFL records and quite a few of them.

[Hawktawk]

]

Is he? I'm not so iron clad sure about that as many seen to be. He's slowed down the last couple seasons, at least from what I've seen. A loss in speed isn't just possible, but a given, Wilson isn't exempt from that.

I've seen him caught from behind the last couple years by linebackers and lineman. Not a normal occurrence early in his career, when he was running away from corners. Perhaps it's the abuse, but anybody thinking he wouldn't take hits in the NFL is watching a different sport than I am. Father time always wins, and adding mass isn't what's going to help with speed, durability yes, but not speed.

That's not to say he lacks it, just pointing out that I'm not so sure his speed is what it was, hamstring or no hamstring.

I guess we would have to put a stopwatch on him to truly know. Game speed is what its about. He's been run down more this year but as I said is reportedly nursing a hamstring. I know he's a relentless workout warrior but you can't beat father time forever. Really until last week vs the chargers he had been deadly efficient for most of a month and a half , moving in the pocket with deadly accurate throws and running only when necessary. Its clear that right now he can't spend an entire game beating a team with his feet.

My point about the thread is the dude had a freaking PERFECT passer rating the week before vs Detroit on the road and he makes a mistake and the sky is falling. If this team doesn't make the playoffs I gotta see a lot more mistakes and less great plays to say its wilson's fault.

[HumanCockroach]

I wasn't saying he didn't. My point was merely, I don't think he's close to that speed anymore. Yes he's been caught more often this year, but it isn't just this year that's occurred. Pretty much since Suh accidentally stepped on him two seasons ago it's been that way.

Im not bashing him, or claiming he isn't great, he is, but for me, until he evolves into a QB that can anticipate, and deliver the ball on time and in rhythm, consistently, he isn't elite. Doesn't mean he isn't the right QB for Seattle, or that he isn't the best scrambling QB of his generation, perhaps all time not named Steve Young, but Young evolved into that, Wilson hasn't yet.

It's not a horrible thing to be great but not elite. The HOF is littered with great but not elite players. I don't think Wilson sniffs the HOF if today was his last game, but another decade of this type play? Yeah he'll get in eventually.

To me "elite" QBs are in the conversation of greatest to play the position in history. I doubt Wilson is in that conversation with anyone without an enormous Seahawks bias. Just how I decifer elite, others obviously do it differently, Im cool with that.

[RiverDog]

My point about the thread is the dude had a freaking PERFECT passer rating the week before vs Detroit on the road and he makes a mistake and the sky is falling.

I don't get that impression at all. Yes, some of us in here are more inclined to criticize RW than others, but I don't see anyone saying anything close to what could be translated into "the sky is falling", which to me would be analogus with saying that he should be benched, traded, sucks, et al.

If this team doesn't make the playoffs I gotta see a lot more mistakes and less great plays to say its wilson's fault.

The quarterback is the single most influential position on the field. Granted, this team isn't as quarterback centric as most other NFL teams, but there is still no way of getting around the fact that it's a quarterback's league. With very few exceptions, so goes Russell, so go the Seahawks. IMO the only game in our first 9 this season where Russell's play was not directly related to a win or loss was the first Rams game.

[Anthony]

And yet when we win it will not be because of anything Wilson did. For some he only grts mentioned when we loose, and it is worse now.

[NorthHawk]

Oh, boo hoo.

[Anthony]

Oh, boo hoo.

Ahh your sad, we know.

[HumanCockroach]

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but isn't Wilson on pace for a career high in TD throws? Seems to be working to me. I don't give a flip if Seattle wins with a pass heavy offense that plays pinball football and Wilson throws for 10,000 yards and 500 TDs, or he throws the ball 4 times efficiently and they run for 500 and 2 scores....

Somebody seems to have lost sight of the GOAL of the game, which is WINNING.

[Anthony]

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but isn't Wilson on pace for a career high in TD throws? Seems to be working to me. I don't give a flip if Seattle wins with a pass heavy offense that plays pinball football and Wilson throws for 10,000 yards and 500 TDs, or he throws the ball 4 times efficiently and they run for 500 and 2 scores....

Somebody seems to have lost sight of the GOAL of the game, which is WINNING.

no I have not, the problem is we are not winning either. unless 4-5 is winning to you. Ill I am saying is we need to mix it up more at the beginning so we get in a flow not throw 13 passes through 3 qtrs an then when we have to throw more knowing the other teams can and will pin its ears and well we have seen what happens when everyone knows we are throwing, we can't very well. Given Winning is the end game and as some here have said balanced offense wins better than unbalanced one would think be ing balanced throughout the game is better than hanging the offense out to dry at the end.

[HumanCockroach]

So.... a little better than last season without a very good defense in a pass heavy offense, or even early THIS season in a pass heavy offense? Is it coincidence in your mind that Seattle didn't win a game until they started running the ball and was something like 2 and 7 over the end of last season and first two games this year, when running a pass heavy offense?

Let me ask this.... how do you limit mistakes by young defensive players, and the opportunities of opposing offenses to take advantage of them? Surprise, it's controlling the clock, and running the ball.


Taa daaaa.... nobody cares about your fantasy league, or your quest to put wilson in the "greatest to ever play, first ballot HOF discussion" all by your onesie... victories matter, nothing done in the first two games should lead anybody to the conclusion that a pass dominant offense was going to be successful moving forward this season.

[idhawkman]

...and adding mass isn't what's going to help with speed, durability yes, but not speed.

That's not to say he lacks it, just pointing out that I'm not so sure his speed is what it was, hamstring or no hamstring.

I made that point here in the forum two years ago when he bulked up and got blasted by many on here that I would even suggest such a think.

[c_hawkbob]

.

[c_hawkbob]

Disagreeing with you is not the same as "blasting" you ...

[NorthHawk]

Mass can help with speed depending on the starting body type.
Sprinters often bulk up up top to get faster. At least they did in my day.
Wilson may have already been at his peak bulk/speed ratio and adding more bulk caused a negative speed result.

[HumanCockroach]

Perhaps, I still lean towards it being the natural progression of time. I'm not saying it's one thing or the other, only that I've noticed he lost a step for far longer than some want to believe.

[RiverDog]

Mass can help with speed depending on the starting body type.
Sprinters often bulk up up top to get faster. At least they did in my day.
Wilson may have already been at his peak bulk/speed ratio and adding more bulk caused a negative speed result.

If you're in your teens or perhaps early 20's, I can see where putting on some upper body mass can help a person run faster if they're a bean pole, but not someone that is two weeks away from their 30th birthday and is as stout as a fire plug.

[idhawkman]

Disagreeing with you is not the same as "blasting" you ...

Hyperbole?