c_hawkbob wrote:I think refusing to wear a mask when asked or reqired to makes you an a-hole, but I don't think that applies (at least no to anywhere near the same degree) as choosing not to when it is optional. The latter could just be a matter of being uninformed or having put your faith in the wrong sources.
c_hawkbob wrote:For myself if I can't maintain distance I've got a mask on (actally a couple*), for your sake not mine. If I go to the store and feel as though someone unmasked put me at any risk at all I carry wipes and will wipe my hands, face and surfaces of my shopping bags real quick. Until there is a vaccine I choose to err on the side of not getting sick and carrying it home to those I care about.
RiverDog wrote:My buddy whom I often refer to has refused to wear a seat belt for no other reason than the government tells us to do it and it's none of their damn business. While I agree that it's an interference in our lives that hurts no one else but ourselves, it's a common sense safety measure with only a mild sacrifice of convenience, so I wear it.
A cloth mask is a stupid hill to die on if one is hell bent to defy the government. It has too much of a "rebels without a cause" appearance. There's much better subjects to expend your ammo on, like the 2nd ammendment abortion even school prayer. Refusing to wear a mask seems very silly in comparison to other challenges to our freedom. . It's too simple and requires too little sacrifice of our liberties and too obviously beneficial for the rest of society for such a defiance to resonate with others. Because of the fact that not wearing one doesn't put the individual's health in jeopardy yet places others at risk, rather than a gallant crusader willing to die for a cause, it makes them look like a selfish A-hole.
Hawktawk wrote:I've worn my mask indoors or in crowded areas for months. Nobody else in the world has politicised this anywhere near as much as america. And its come from our *leader* We are too selfish, greedy and stupid to survive. Seeing Trump sinking like a stone and seeing polls showing americans are increasingly taking this seriously is a promising sign but I dread what we might see in the next month due to the utter lack of safe procedures around this country.
Aseahawkfan wrote:You won't see much. We already have clear evidence of what the corona virus does to people in environments that don't social distance or wear masks. It's still well below a 1% death rate, less than 1/10 of of 1%. It's why people are getting careless, not just here, but all over. We're not the only nation having problems getting people to wear masks.
Aseahawkfan wrote:This isn't new territory any more. We have nations like Sweden who didn't lock down and still have less than 1/10 of 1% death rate or lower. We have Brasil who also has less than 1/10th of 1%. Even in America we're well under 1/10th of 1% and ample evidence is it spread heavily in New York and other East Coast places before we locked down.
The death rate is extremely low. We have massive asymptomatic spreading going. Hospital systems are not getting overloaded because this virus is different than they thought it was. It is making people careless.
Aseahawkfan wrote:I still wear a mask in public.I think people should. It's more to protect the vulnerable than any concern that this is the devastating virus it was thought to be at the start of this. I wear it more because I don't want to be the one killing someone's mom or relative by carelessness. There are too many people that don't give a crap like our dumb as dirt president. I have one friend who lost an older uncle. And another friend who lost his mom. That is terrible. Both likely got it from a younger, asymptomatic relative likely not wearing a mask. But who knows, maybe they were wearing a mask and still go it. The asymptomatic or mildly symptomatic spread is what makes this virus so terrible.
If it hit hard and killed a lot of people even Dumb as Dirt would be wearing a mask and people would be too afraid to go out without one. But this mostly mild and asymptomatic spreading is just making this feel not worth it to a ton of people and they are getting careless.
RiverDog wrote:I just got back from visiting my brother-in-law at a private campground in Gold Bar east of Monroe. People are much better at wearing masks than they are here in the Tri Cities even though we have a much worse COVID problem with hospital ICU nearing capacity and infections climbing disproportionally to increased testing. The Tri Cities estimate of mask compliance in grocery stores is 53% even though it's been mandatory for over a week. Virtually everyone was wearing masks in Snohomish County stores. Along with Yakima County, which is the worst county on the west coast, our two county area, ie Benton/Franklin Counties, are the only 3 counties still in Phase 1. Just a drive through my neighborhood here, with all the Trump yard signs and flags compared to neighborhoods on the west side, shows that we have a lot more Trump supporters than they do on the west side. Compliance is most definitely related to one's political philosophy.
There is no one stat related to COVID that is tell-all. Death rates vary depending on a whole bunch of factors, how robust testing is, age of population, etc. The one I look at is hospital admissions and ICU usage. There are seven states that have reported record COVID admissions: AZ, AK, NC, SC, TN, and TX. Hospitals in AZ, CA, FL, and TX are reporting near capacity ICU units. That kind of usage puts at risk all uses of ICU's. If there's a serious accident involving multiple injuries requiring ICU's, they'll be having to shuffle victims to other hospitals. Here locally, Yakima has had to start transferring ICU patients to other hospitals. 30% of Tri Cities hospital patients are COVID, a stat that's been on a steady rise for weeks. Spokane is showing an increase in COVID cases. But even those stats doesn't give an idea as to whether or not the virus is under control as there can be a two week lag time between infection and the onset of symptoms.
Aseahawkfan wrote:You want to post articles were ICU units are near capacity in Texas? I haven't heard this at all and my people are in Texas. So I'd like if these are speculative articles or actual stats. Fear-mongering and "What if's don't mean much.
Aseahawkfan wrote:You want to post articles were ICU units are near capacity in Texas? I haven't heard this at all and my people are in Texas. So I'd like if these are speculative articles or actual stats. Fear-mongering and "What if's don't mean much.
RiverDog wrote:Another article regarding hospital capacity in Texas:
At Lyndon B. Johnson Hospital on Sunday, the medical staff ran out of both space for new coronavirus patients and a key drug needed to treat them. With no open beds at the public hospital, a dozen COVID-19 patients who were in need of intensive care were stuck in the emergency room, awaiting transfers to other Houston area hospitals, according to a note sent to the staff and shared with reporters.
A day later, the top physician executive at the Houston Methodist hospital system wrote to staff members warning that its coronavirus caseload was surging: “It has become necessary to consider delaying more surgical services to create further capacity for COVID-19 patients,” Dr. Robert Phillips said in the note, an abrupt turn from three days earlier, when the hospital system sent a note to thousands of patients, inviting them to keep their surgical appointments.
And at The University of Texas MD Anderson Cancer Center, staff members were alerted recently that the hospital would soon begin taking in cancer patients with COVID-19 from the city’s overburdened public hospital system, a highly unusual move for the specialty hospital.
These internal messages highlight the growing strain that the coronavirus crisis is putting on hospital systems in the Houston region, where the number of patients hospitalized with COVID-19 has nearly quadrupled since Memorial Day. As of Tuesday, more than 3,000 people were hospitalized for the coronavirus in the region, including nearly 800 in intensive care.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/inter ... d=msedgntp
That ought to put to rest any arguments over the strain that COVID is putting on Texas hospitals.
Aseahawkfan wrote:
Not really. It simply indicates Houston like other big cities are getting more which is expected. It doesn't mean the entire state of Texas is over-loaded. Which is why posting things like "Texas hospitals" leads to bad thinking about the overall state of Texas or any state versus key areas. That is the type of thinking that leads to idiot lock downs state wide versus focusing on the areas having probems.
So let's just say we disagree on how to view things. I don't want more dumb one-sized fits all lock downs and mandates. If any area is having problems, do what you need to do to get that under control. Don't continue to act in an idiotic manner locking everyone down when they have 3 cases in some wide open county where people do not need to be locked down.
We also have to learn to live with COVID, period. As in we need to be operational with COVID in full swing and accept the death count. We can't lock down again for a death rate this low. The hospitals will have to bear the brunt of it, people will have to protect themselves as much as possible, and we have to get to business. For all the partying in the stock market, we are not economically healthy at all. Just because The Fed is printing money like it's free doesn't mean the long-term effect of this is going to be good at all. All those people sitting on cash right now or earning wages or on social security are about to be in for a huge shock when their dollars are devalued and the overall effect of all this is to once again transfer massive wealth from wage earners and cash holders to those able to purchase assets that will increase with the inflation caused by an overabundant money supply.
Hawktawk wrote:What does refusing to wear a mask say? It says you are selfish and stupid."
the hospitals will have to bear the brunt of it" "if your old afraid shelter and protect yourself"
I'm really sick of hearing this. The hospitals are getting overwhelmed and when that actually happens it's a false choice to say get the economy rolling. Not to mention health care workers forced to deal with a horde of patients get sick at a rate higher than anywhere in the world.Many young healthy medical professionals die due to the sheer amount of aerosol covid in these hospital rooms.
the economy is not rolling. It showed signs of life in may with all the reopenings but now these states are going backwards and they have to shut down, a worse fate than staying closed a bit longer and forcing people to comply in the very beginning . Everyone in the world was in masks immediately when this hit but we didn't have enough masks so the advice was not to wear one for months. Our national stockpile is running out again now too .This is a 2 week lag disease and the numbers are horrific already and still not showing the infections from the 4th of july holiday, numbers are already being fudged to hide the true severity. Reefer trucks are being ordered in AZ and Texas. California AZ Texas and Florida alone lead the entire world in new infections the past few days.
Whats happening in the market is obscene, immoral, the fed spending our great great great grandkids money propping up this market actually buying securities from publicly traded companies like Jack daniels etc. it's a house of cards from hell. Meanwhile fortune 500 companies got bailouts, Trump's businesses and those of his buddies and donors and the little guys are going bankrupt.What does this say about our leaders when small businesses fail and they make the rich much richer as JP morgan had its best ever quarter with unemployment rivalling the great depression? What does sacrificing hundreds of thousands of lives worshiping the almighty capitalism where everything except human life is too big to fail say about 40% of americans? their greed, avarice, lack of moral fiber is revolting. America is screwed worse than anyone because we closed too late and not completely, we didn't mandate masks for every american, we opened when none of the states met the WH task forces own guidelines and Americans generally speaking are proven to be stupid, selfish, possessing a false sense of invincibility. The president has been so bad, so indescribably bad. He's been a huge part of the problem and its not a shock its red states blowing up the worst in most instances. Personally, living around about 40% idiots I'm ready to punch the next maskless idiot that crowds me in a store. I dont want to hear these trumpanzees saying F#k Jay inslee when washington closes over whats going on in eastern washington. Wear your masks. Even numb nutz put one on 4 months too late
Aseahawkfan wrote:We'll see. Hospitals are not overwhelmed yet or we would be seeing a far worse death rate.
Aseahawkfan wrote:And yep, our debt load has reached insane levels. The stock market keeps on going up absent fundamentals to support almost all based on the juice in the economy that will cause inflation. Someday people will pay, who knows when.
The entire leadership of America has been absolutely terrible whether it is Dumb as Dirt not wearing a mask or taking the virus seriously to Jay "Hypocrite" Inslee and his cohort Mayor "Jenny "Summer of Love" Durkan locking everything down while letting protesters wander in groups higher than 50 protesting, letting people loot, and letting people take over several city blocks instituting their law. We have absolutely terrible leadership right now. The media is terrible as well egging each other on and politicizing everything. It's making this whole situation worse.
I wish we could get rid of all these clowns and soon. The Seattle City Council, Inslee, Durkan, Trump, most of Congress, most of the idiots in the media like Hannity, Tucker, Lemon, and Cooper. Just wash our hands of these idiots and try to find some reasonable folks to run the government and provide news.
Death rate isn't a good metric to use to measure hospital capacity. There's several weeks lag time between when an infected person gets admitted to a hospital and when they pass.
Death rate isn't a good metric to use to measure hospital capacity. There's several weeks lag time between when an infected person gets admitted to a hospital and when they pass.
c_hawkbob wrote:Additionally death certificates take time to be completed. There are many steps to filling out and submitting a death certificate. Waiting for test results can create additional delays.
States report at different rates. Currently, 63% of all U.S. deaths are reported within 10 days of the date of death, but there is significant variation between states.
It takes extra time to code COVID-19 deaths. While 80% of deaths are electronically processed and coded by NCHS within minutes, most deaths from COVID-19 must be coded by a person, which takes an average of 7 days. (source CDC website)
So any covid 19 death statistics you're looking at aren't really valid beyond 5 or 6 weeks prior to the day you look at them.
NorthHawk wrote:In Asia (I'm thinking it is Taiwan) they have a Health Card and whenever you see a doctor, they swipe it and
record the reason for the visit. This gives them the ability to track in near time the locations and size of
any type of disease or infection. It will happen to all advanced societies at some point, but it might be a
while for those with large land masses and decentralized health care systems.
RiverDog wrote:Death rate isn't a good metric to use to measure hospital capacity. There's several weeks lag time between when an infected person gets admitted to a hospital and when they pass. Reports from Florida, Texas, and California is that hospitals are getting darn close to capacity, and officials are concerned as the number of new cases continues to grow, a growth rate that can't be explained simply by more testing being done as the POTUS would have us believe. Here's a quote from an article dated yesterday from a Dallas hospital CEO: Stephen Love, president and CEO of the DFW Hospital Council said North Texas hospitals have surge capacity, for now, but the rate at which the virus is spreading in our region was worrisome.
And the problem isn't just with hospital capacity and the death rate. With as many infections that are being reported, it's inevitable that some of those infections are going to be health care providers, and when they get sick and can't come to work, or come to work and give it to their co workers, the crisis is going to get even worse. I'm not running around saying that the sky is falling, but some areas of the country, particularly those 4 in the Sun Belt region, are facing an extremely serious situation that could go very badly.
I agree, but I don't see simply getting rid of the bums as a solution. The problem is with the American public. I keep harping back to it, but when 30% of adults are so stupid and ill informed that they can't find the Pacific Ocean on a map, what makes you think that they won't wrap their arms around the next slick snake oil salesman that tells them what they want to hear?
c_hawkbob wrote:Additionally death certificates take time to be completed. There are many steps to filling out and submitting a death certificate. Waiting for test results can create additional delays.
States report at different rates. Currently, 63% of all U.S. deaths are reported within 10 days of the date of death, but there is significant variation between states.
It takes extra time to code COVID-19 deaths. While 80% of deaths are electronically processed and coded by NCHS within minutes, most deaths from COVID-19 must be coded by a person, which takes an average of 7 days. (source CDC website)
So any covid 19 death statistics you're looking at aren't really valid beyond 5 or 6 weeks prior to the day you look at them.
c_hawkbob wrote:Additionally death certificates take time to be completed. There are many steps to filling out and submitting a death certificate. Waiting for test results can create additional delays.
States report at different rates. Currently, 63% of all U.S. deaths are reported within 10 days of the date of death, but there is significant variation between states.
It takes extra time to code COVID-19 deaths. While 80% of deaths are electronically processed and coded by NCHS within minutes, most deaths from COVID-19 must be coded by a person, which takes an average of 7 days. (source CDC website)
So any covid 19 death statistics you're looking at aren't really valid beyond 5 or 6 weeks prior to the day you look at them.
Aseahawkfan wrote:John Hopkins updates daily. They're not waiting for death certificates. From what I understand they are going by hospital information as in doctor's declared cause of death, which I think is almost immediate given they don't have a lot of time to spend on autopsy or screwing around with it. So the death certificate may take a while to finalize, the doctor's listed cause of death is not. Sites like John Hopkin's COVID19 tracker will update with hospital information on a daily basis. Doctor's often pronounce cause of death in a hospital almost immediately when the person dies. I don't believe there is much of a delay, though someone may dispute cause of death prior to the release of the death certificate. I guarantee hospitals aren't waiting for the death certificate to report the statistic. They take the information the doctor signs off on.
Here are their information sources: https://github.com/CSSEGISandData/COVID-19/blob/master/README.md
Seems even the CDC is not mainly using death certificates. From CDC web site:
"In addition, CDC regularly reports provisional death certificate data on the NCHS website. Reporting the number of deaths by using death certificates ultimately provides more complete information but is a longer process and, therefore, these numbers will be less than the deaths count on the COVID-19 website."
RiverDog wrote:I just heard on NBC that 56 Florida hospitals have no more ICU units available.
RiverDog wrote:it still doesn't take into account the amount of time between infection and death. As we all know, symptoms can take up to 14 days after infection, and a victim can spend several weeks in the hospital/ICU before they pass. No matter how you look at it, reported deaths is a lagging indicator.
Most experts are looking at total infections and the percent of positive of those tested to forecast hospital/ICU usage, and those indicators don't look good in the 4 states most often mentioned (CA, TX, AZ, and FL). You also have to keep in mind that most of those hospitals have already postponed elective surgeries so the numbers are lower than they would be under normal circumstances. Those 4 states could be in some serious trouble if the rate of admissions exceeds the rate of discharge/death.
Aseahawkfan wrote:How many hospitals does Florida have?
Aseahawkfan wrote:Looks like Dumb as Dirt may have to step up again to do something. If Dumb as Dirt wants to win Florida, he better step up big to help them. That state is absolutely essential to his re-election. Maybe that will motivate him.
I expect Americans to resist any government mandate even if it's scientifically backed and good for their health, wealth, or what not.
I-5 wrote:I find this to be true, which is also what makes America one of the dumbest countries when it comes to public behavior. I think non-americans are genuinely shocked when they see how americans have responded to this pandemic. As Riv said, it's a stupid hill to die on. To steal an analogy I saw, the US has become the Florida of the world.
Don't know what to tell you. There are many days I wonder how we became the remaining global superpower. I can only surmise that though there are a lot of ignorant Americans, we must have a whole lot of super intelligent and capable people as well. I guess in an open, free environment where you get to say and do as you please, you end up producing both the highly productive, intelligent, and capable people that help you become a superpower mixed with dumb as dirt people who make you look like a country full of idiots.
I-5 wrote:That’s exactly true. For people who have never been to the US, I tell them that you can find the most extreme of everything here, from the best athletes to the most sedentary people, the smartest to the dumbest, the most atheist/agnostic to the most religious, and even the greediest to the most generous people in the world. I guess that’s why it can be called the greatest and the worst country at the same time.
One thing is for sure, I can’t think of a worse president to have in the worst possible health crisis of the last hundred years than what we have now. It’s almost a perfect storm.
Aseahawkfan wrote:Dumb as Dirt is seemingly taking the information delivery away from the CDC and in house. We'll see how that works. He is trying to control information and magically make this disappear. The death rate needs to remain low for Dumb as Dirt to have any chance of making that strategy work.
If the Republicans are 80% responsible for the idiocy as c-bob claims. Dumb as Dirt is responsible for 60% of that. I'd bet money no other Republican president would handle a pandemic this stupidly or provide so little leadership during this time.
Dumb as Dirt is leading Republicans off a cliff right now. We'll see how many lemming Republicans follow him. I am still hearing a ton of talking about "Biden being weak and blah, blah, blah." They better hope the death rate remains low or their won't be any rocks for Dumb as Dirt to hide under.
NorthHawk wrote:I would think that as the deaths and complications from the virus mount, more people will become aware of the seriousness
of it and some, if not most will have doubts about what they believe. Perspectives change when things like this hit home.
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