Hawktawk wrote:I’ve used a bolt action rifle with open sights many times . I don’t buy the guy from that far up got all those bullets in the car including 1 into the neck and then the the kill shot in the head , literally within a few inches of one another . I’ve seen the simulations . All controlled environments already aware of all the angles and physics . Repeated practice of the scenarios with a perfectly maintained firearm .
That doesn’t replicate real life ok there’s the car bang bang bang . 100 yards with open sights on a moving away from you 100 feet below and 100 yards away and accelerating on the kill shot is the golden BB.
Hawktawk wrote:And if you accept he was that amazing he didn’t bother to buy a scope then what about the one that hit the curb ? Deadeye then miss by 10 feet ? President emerges from behind the sign grasping his throat , clearly not an exit wound from the same gun that blew his head apart a second later . Just my knowledge and lifelong use of firearms coupled with the zapruder film tells me someone else was shooting as well
Hawktawk wrote:To the degree it’s a further conspiracy ? Don’t buy the Ruby thing at all . I know there was loathing for Kennedy from Cubans , CIA and the entire military industrial complex over bay of pigs . There’s a big difference between what may have happened and what’s provable in these instances . I can’t surmise beyond a second gunman or maybe more but Oswald didn’t act alone . I don’t buy it . And I also think a secret like that can be kept by our government . Now the principals are all dead so the real story may never emerge if in fact there is an alternate story .
Hawktawk wrote:If you’re talking about the warren report I don’t buy a word of that such as wounds and trajectories and such . I wonder how advanced those investigative tools were back then . I’ve heard the supposed exit wound on his throat is higher than the entry meaning he had to be leaning forward quite a bit when shot. We don’t know because of the sign .it’s what it is . I don’t buy it . Way too many coincidences .
Aseahawkfan wrote:Jacky Ruby and Lee Harvey Oswald may have pulled the trigger, but someone wanted that trigger pulled. And it got done. And you'll never know who ordered it just as you'll never know who jacked Epstein and no one powerful will likely be done due to Epstein's case save perhaps a few old people as sacrificial lambs because their lives are over.
Aseahawkfan wrote:As far as proof, why do you think you're ever going to get proof when powerful people are involved who are extremely careful about insulating themselves? They didn't get caught for a reason and they won't get caught ever.
RiverDog wrote:Like I said, there is no shortage of people and organizations that had both the motive and the means to knock off JFK. The problem is that none had the opportunity.
Ask yourself some questions: Let's say the mafia was the ones that hired Oswald to gun down JFK. Do you honestly believe that they would equip him with an inferior, WWI surplus bolt action rifle that cost $20?
Or why did they let Oswald go back to his apartment, change clothes, walk around the neighborhood, shoot a cop, then get captured in a movie theatre?
If they were so powerful and professional as you say they were, why didn't they eliminate him within minutes after pulling the trigger?
All they had to do was to set up an ambush at his apartment, knowing that he'd return. Don't professionals plan an escape or elimination of their trigger man? But instead, they waited until he was in police custody then waited until they had interrogated him for 36 hours before they silenced him.
And what about Jack Ruby? How do you explain the fact that 4 minutes before he shot Oswald that he was at the Western Union office, patiently waiting his turn in line so he could wire some money to one of his strippers? Wouldn't a hit man be in place well before his victim was scheduled to appear?
Yeah, it's just not sexy enough. We're a country raised on spy thrillers: James Bond, I Spy, Mission Impossible, and so on. We've been conditioned to believe in grand conspiracies: "My husband was the victim of a vast right wing conspiracy!" Americans can't come to grips with the fact that a loser like Oswald could kill their beloved President, the most powerful man in the world. In order to kill a powerful man, you need a sophisticated network of criminals like the mafia, a government agency like the CIA, or a foreign country like the Russians or Cubans. It's just not possible for a lone nut to pull off the crime of the century. There has to be more. It was impossible for Oswald to have acted alone because it just doesn't fit the narrative, that it had to be the result of "powerful people that are extremely careful about insulating themselves", right?
Aseahawkfan wrote:Yes. Equipping the killer with higher grade weapons he could not obtain would raise suspicion.
If they were so powerful and professional as you say they were, why didn't they eliminate him within minutes after pulling the trigger?
Aseahawkfan wrote:Why eliminate someone who is no threat to you at all. Some crazy you set in motion in the right direction?
You watch conspiracies committed often and don't believe they can occur?
Aseahawkfan wrote:You can choose to believe as you do that conspiracies are just for nutty people. Or you can choose to believe as I do that you won't stop or know about the conspiracies until after they happen or maybe never, so why worry about it. Even if you had known, you weren't going to be able to stop the people who wanted Kennedy dead. They would have just killed you for getting in their way and you would have been found in some alley or in your car having committed suicide or just straight up disappeared like Jimmy Hoffa.
RiverDog wrote:All of these people you've mentioned as victims or potential victims of conspiracies, Khashoggi, Hoffa, Epstein, et al, are very poor examples as they're not heads of state of a superpower and not even remotely as difficult to kill as a sitting POTUS. You can't just call up the President and tell him to meet you at a restaurant like they did with Hoffa. The JFK murder was done in broad daylight, in an open environment with hundreds of potential witnesses, many with still and movie cameras, crawling with cops and secret service. I heard one person claim that it was the most photographed murder in history, certainly at that time. It would have been impossible to set up an ambush in that location on just a few weeks' notice and keep it secret. It would have been much easier to shoot him on a golf course, blow up his yacht, or poison his food. No way would they have chosen the downtown area of a major city in front of that many witnesses to carry out such a complicated crime.
One of the problems I have in debating this issue is that as a rule, people are unaware of the facts and evidence. They argue in generalities, avoiding the specifics of the crime and ignoring the obvious contradictions that undeniable, well-established facts of the case pose. They'll claim that the autopsy was staged without understanding the complexities. They'll call the Warren Report a croc without having read a paragraph of it or not realizing that there were subsequent investigations that validated it. All they look at is motive, that this or that person or group wanted JFK dead. They're heavily influenced by the tons of conspiracy material available on the web. It runs about 80% pro conspiracy because it's a big business, an industry in its own right that people like Oliver Stone have made millions of dollars off of. As I said, Americans have been conditioned to believe in conspiracies and are easy prey for a sexy novel that conforms to their pre-disposed beliefs.
I'm not sure how interested you and Hawktalk are in this issue, but the best book I've read on the subject...and I've read a bunch of them, both pro and anti conspiracy, is this one:
https://books.google.com/books/about/Re ... rKTKDhvfkC
It's a big book, written by Vincent Bugliosi, the prosecutor that convicted Charles Manson. It's actually two books in one, the other being "Four Days in November", which can be bought separately, that is a re-creation of the events and gives background information, not necessarily anti or pro conspiracy. In 1986, Bugliosi prosecuted Oswald in a mock trial with a real, sworn in jury, actual eye witnesses from 1963, expert witnesses that testified before the Warren Commission, HSCA, etc, a real judge and with Gerry Spence, a well known criminal defense lawyer that has never lost a case before a jury, acting as Oswald's defender. Bugliosi, who had a 105-1 record as a prosecutor, got a conviction.
Bugliosi goes into great detail about the autopsy, Oswald and Ruby's biographies, the various investigations like the Warren Commission and HSCA, and examines all of the major conspiracy theories known at the time. It is well footnoted.
Aseahawkfan wrote:I'll leave that to someone else then. I was hopping on for fun. Hopefully you can find someone who is interested in the Kennedy conspiracies.
I honestly don't know much about the Kennedy murders. My gut feeling is it is extraordinarily convenient for far too many people that the two most politically powerful Kennedys were murdered greatly reducing the Kennedy's political power. Both Kennedys were known to be pissing off some very powerful people in organized crime and the intelligence community. Both were killed by lone wolf crazies who happened to circumvent their security staffing. It's all very suspicious.
In the grand scheme of things, it's water under the bridge. The investigative record is on the books now. People will pick their sides and stick with it. You can either believe the investigative record or you don't. Lots of people have made lots of money exploring the deaths of JFK and RFK further. It's a niche cottage industry at this point along with UFOs, though it seems to have died down a lot since 80s and 90s.
Aseahawkfan wrote:So this is a personal interest. It was a powerful point of change in America. I wouldn't be surprised if the number of people losing faith in government occurred because of the JFK assassination. Presidents had been assassinated before, but none that had been broadcast on TV and were so well known and well-loved. JFK coincided with the rising power of television and the media. He had the celebrity looks, name, and charisma. He was publicly assassinated as the TV news was getting going and during the tumultuous 60s.
Aseahawkfan wrote:You got to live through some pretty crazy times in America. I grew up mostly in the 80s during my formative years. I was too young in the 70s to notice much. The 80s was a very fun period in America. Economy was fairly good. Reagan was president and made us look good and was well-liked. We didn't have any major wars other than the Cold War. It seemed like the races were coming together. The movies and music were great IMO with the highest level of diversity I think I've ever seen as corporate categorization hadn't quite occurred yet, so everything was kind of mixed together. MTV still played music videos. Food was still real and so were the girls. I probably grew up in the most positive, relaxed era in recent American history. Then the 90s hit and it's been sort of bumpy ride from there in so many areas from school shootings to race issues to not trusting the government and the general chaos and lethargy that has gripped America. Though the Internet has been great.
Aseahawkfan wrote:I do miss the good feels of the 80s and having a president that seemed to be relatively well-liked at home and abroad.
Aseahawkfan wrote:Someone wanted the Kennedy's who held power dead. Someone powerful. To me it's like Jeffrey Epstein, someone wanted him dead and you ain't never gonna know who. Some people have strange ideas that there aren't people powerful enough to pull this stuff off, but there are. And you don't mess with them or they will end you, not lose a wink of sleep about it, and you won't catch them. They plan meticulously, have people who are absolutely loyal, and can make things happen as needed. The Bush's are one family capable of this, at least George H.W. Bush. Cheney is another. I'm not sure who wanted to take out the Kennedy's, but they had a lot of enemies. Someone powerful took John and Robert out of the game and sent a message to the Kennedy's to stay out of their way. Someone in the Kennedy's probably knows who or did know who, but that person probably passed away and kept things quiet to preserve the family.
I don't know how you can watch events in the modern day like Jeffrey Epstein dying or see Jamal Khashoggi murdered by a hit team at the request of a Saudi Prince (he was sloppy) with nothing happening to anyone and not realize that there are powerful people in the world who can have you murdered, chopped up, and nothing will happen to them because they are too powerful to touch. If you think it doesn't happen in America, you just have your head in the sand.
Jacky Ruby and Lee Harvey Oswald may have pulled the trigger, but someone wanted that trigger pulled. And it got done. And you'll never know who ordered it just as you'll never know who jacked Epstein and no one powerful will likely be done due to Epstein's case save perhaps a few old people as sacrificial lambs because their lives are over.
As far as proof, why do you think you're ever going to get proof when powerful people are involved who are extremely careful about insulating themselves? They didn't get caught for a reason and they won't get caught ever.
That's why I don't think Trump will do any time or have anything done to him. He has protection. And there are people in America far more powerful than Trump that can snuff your life and they won't have anything done to them for doing so.
Aseahawkfan wrote:Someone wanted the Kennedy's who held power dead. Someone powerful. To me it's like Jeffrey Epstein, someone wanted him dead and you ain't never gonna know who. Some people have strange ideas that there aren't people powerful enough to pull this stuff off, but there are. And you don't mess with them or they will end you, not lose a wink of sleep about it, and you won't catch them. They plan meticulously, have people who are absolutely loyal, and can make things happen as needed. The Bush's are one family capable of this, at least George H.W. Bush. Cheney is another. I'm not sure who wanted to take out the Kennedy's, but they had a lot of enemies. Someone powerful took John and Robert out of the game and sent a message to the Kennedy's to stay out of their way. Someone in the Kennedy's probably knows who or did know who, but that person probably passed away and kept things quiet to preserve the family.
I don't know how you can watch events in the modern day like Jeffrey Epstein dying or see Jamal Khashoggi murdered by a hit team at the request of a Saudi Prince (he was sloppy) with nothing happening to anyone and not realize that there are powerful people in the world who can have you murdered, chopped up, and nothing will happen to them because they are too powerful to touch. If you think it doesn't happen in America, you just have your head in the sand.
Jacky Ruby and Lee Harvey Oswald may have pulled the trigger, but someone wanted that trigger pulled. And it got done. And you'll never know who ordered it just as you'll never know who jacked Epstein and no one powerful will likely be done due to Epstein's case save perhaps a few old people as sacrificial lambs because their lives are over.
As far as proof, why do you think you're ever going to get proof when powerful people are involved who are extremely careful about insulating themselves? They didn't get caught for a reason and they won't get caught ever.
That's why I don't think Trump will do any time or have anything done to him. He has protection. And there are people in America far more powerful than Trump that can snuff your life and they won't have anything done to them for doing so.
Hawktawk wrote:Completely agree
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