Beefing up the D-Line - Hawks Sign Rubin

[Tommy Udo]

No idea how you could have reached that determination. A player addition doesn't have to be a blockbuster to have an impact. Fact is most of the player moves that Pete and John have made to get us to the point we are are now were of the no headline, strengthen the roster, position rotation types of moves. If you want blockbuster moves look at the Redskins and how well that works for them.

And Hardy was never a real consideration, strictly due diligence.

Anyway, Welcome to the Shack! Happy to have another point of view!

Thanks for the welcome bob!

I am going to take for granted that you have not watched Rubin play for the last couple of seasons.

He was always considered an asset in the run game, nothing more, but his play has steadily dropped off every year making him a large body on the field, nothing more. All signing Rubin did was add a body to the roster that cannot be counted on.

Are you saying Hardy was not a consideration because of the potential suspension or because of his play? The Cowboys were willing to pay more than what most teams would in that situation so I understand not overpaying him but having him on this d-line creates an immediate impact.

[c_hawkbob]

Thanks for the welcome bob!

I am going to take for granted that you have not watched Rubin play for the last couple of seasons.

You'd be well advised not to take any such things for granted here. Most of us do a fair job of paying attention to what matters. This isn't the ESPN comments section. Rubin's poor showing recently are due to playing through injuries and not being well suited to his team's new defensive scheme.

He was always considered an asset in the run game, nothing more

It's true he's no edge rusher, but at his size, who is? Besides, being solid against the run is our defensive line's job one, don't act as if is the negligible part of the game. He's played DE, DT in a 4-3 and NT in a 3-4, (his least effective position) he is, when healthy, the very definition of a versatile D-lineman who is as capable of chasing a play 30 yards to the off side as he is of anchoring against a double team.

... but his play has steadily dropped off every year

Not true. His stat line (tackles) rose over his first 4 years, dipped in '12, rebounded in '13 and dropped off last year. That's not anything like steadily dropping every year.

Are you saying Hardy was not a consideration because of the potential suspension or because of his play?

Definitely his off the field issues. Whether he's suspended or not. Off field issues are becoming a greater and greater consideration in today's NFL, like it or not.

The Cowboys were willing to pay more than what most teams would in that situation so I understand not overpaying him but having him on this d-line creates an immediate impact.

I couldn't possibly care less what the Cowboys are willing to do. Jerry Jones is an egomaniacal fool, I'm so glad not to have him as an owner.

[Tommy Udo]

You'd be well advised not to take any such things for granted here. Most of us do a fair job of paying attention to what matters. This isn't the ESPN comments section. Rubin's poor showing recently are due to playing through injuries and not being well suited to his team's new defensive scheme.

Actually, his play has gotten worse every year and if you are simply using stats to make your argument then you are missing the entire point. If you have actually watched Rubin play you would not be arguing on his behalf. Injuries played a part, but they are part of the game and they have impacted his game negatively. He has never truly been an impact player in Cleveland and he is nowhere near the player he was in 2010-2011.

He's played DE, DT in a 4-3 and NT in a 3-4, (his least effective position) he is, when healthy, the very definition of a versatile D-lineman who is as capable of chasing a play 30 yards to the off side as he is of anchoring against a double team.

And I don't post in the ESPN comment section, so I have no idea what it is like, but this confirms you have not actually watched him play on the field for the last couple of years. Nothing personal, but Rubin is not the player you are describing, not in the least.

As for Hardy and the Cowboys, what the hell does Jerry Jones' ego have to do with Hardy's production on the field or what he would bring to the table in that capacity?

If you have a problem with the player and don't believe he can improve the line or believe he would cost too much compared to what he is worth I can understand that. The rest of it is personal bias.

[Hawktawk]

Gregg Hardy is a total POS, maybe the worst of the woman beaters. Rice took a drunken swipe at his fiance who was spitting, swinging her arms and lunging at him. Hardy severely beat a woman, drug her into and out of a bathtub by her hair, then picked her up and threw her on a bed full of guns. He said he was going to kill her. He was convicted of the charge but won an appeal when she refused to testify after a significant settlement. The pig has never admitted any wrongdoing or apologized but Jones had the audacity to say Hardy has "paid a terrible price". Jones is a clown on his way back to the cellar of the NFC least.Not to mention Hardy feasted on single teams in a very good Carolina interior defense. So lots of headaches for potentially very little productivity on a lousy Dallas defense.

Give me Rubin,Mebane, Hill, anyone but that creep.

[c_hawkbob]

Actually, his play has gotten worse every year and if you are simply using stats to make your argument then you are missing the entire point. If you have actually watched Rubin play you would not be arguing on his behalf. Injuries played a part, but they are part of the game and they have impacted his game negatively. He has never truly been an impact player in Cleveland and he is nowhere near the player he was in 2010-2011.

And I don't post in the ESPN comment section, so I have no idea what it is like, but this confirms you have not actually watched him play on the field for the last couple of years. Nothing personal, but Rubin is not the player you are describing, not in the least.

As for Hardy and the Cowboys, what the hell does Jerry Jones' ego have to do with Hardy's production on the field or what he would bring to the table in that capacity?

If you have a problem with the player and don't believe he can improve the line or believe he would cost too much compared to what he is worth I can understand that. The rest of it is personal bias.

OK first, no need to tell everybody how much more you know than they do. Argue the subject without making it personal. If you have any football smarts it'll make itself evident over time. I have watched Rubin play and as I read your opinion I can't believe you ever have before the last two years. Whether you like stats or not when they are so far outside the norm (80+ tackles for a D-lineman is exceptional) there is something to them. You needn't tell me that you can be a great lineman without great stats, I've used exactly that argument often WRT Red Bryant for years. I recognize that stats don't tell the whole story, but I also recognize that they can tell a valuable part of the story.

I haven't commented on Hardy's play on the field because it's irrelevant. His conduct off the field ha "taken him off the board" for us. No personal bias involved and no need to evaluate the dollars and cents because it's not happening here. You say you can accept if I don't believe he can improve the line or believe he would cost too much compared to what he is worth, you're just going to have to accept his off the field problems as a valid reason for not wanting him here as well. It's a real thing, to ignore it is to blind yourself to that aspect of player evaluation.

[Tommy Udo]

Gregg Hardy is a total POS, maybe the worst of the woman beaters.

And if that is your reasoning for not signing him I am not going to argue against it, other than the part about potential for very little production because his track record would say otherwise, coupled with the idea of the players he would be working with in Seattle. Based on the personnel already in place it is safe to say that he would continue to put up solid numbers.

If you don't want to sign the guy based on his recent off-field history I can understand that. But I don't see how an argument can be made against the idea that he would definitely upgrade the d-line from a depth and pass rush point of view.

[Tommy Udo]

OK first, no need to tell everybody how much more you know than they do. Argue the subject without making it personal. If you have any football smarts it'll make itself evident over time. I have watched Rubin play and as I read your opinion I can't believe you ever have before the last two years. Whether you like stats or not when they are so far outside the norm (80+ tackles for a D-lineman is exceptional) there is something to them. You needn't tell me that you can be a great lineman without great stats, I've used exactly that argument often WRT Red Bryant for years. I recognize that stats don't tell the whole story, but I also recognize that they can tell a valuable part of the story.

I live in the Cleveland market area and have watched virtually every snap of Rubin's career here (check the IP address if you need to). I agree that stats can tell part of the story, because they do, but using stats to make an argument for his play over the last couple seasons simply does not apply.

I'm not telling anyone I know more than they do. I am telling you that the player you described is not the player that he is. He had the potential to be a dominant force for CLE but it never materialized and now he is nothing more than a marginal player.

This was a pointless signing for Seattle with very little upside, but I am willing to revisit this discussion with you after the season plays out and you have the opportunity to see Rubin in a Seahawks uniform.

[obiken]

But who did he have to play with Tommy? You put him with our lineman and a c+ player becomes a B+ player. As the Zen Master once said we'll see!

[Tommy Udo]

Just so you know, I hope that you guys are right and I will gladly eat my words if Rubin's play makes me.

[RiverDog]

There is a lot of 'IF' in your post but I do see where you are coming from.

And I agree on the OL which is why I believe they have to go that direction almost immediately in this draft.

There will be some day 3 receiving talent available as well and I would think they would like to add at least one potential weapon for Russell.

Do you think Christine Michael will see the field more this season or is Pete Carroll leaning towards being committed to Robert Turbin?

I agree that the Hawks will be looking at OL first and foremost. Now that we've traded for Graham, the need to get Russell some weapons, ie a big play WR, has diminished somewhat, but I do think they'll be opportunistic if they see someone they really like. IMO Graham will be used much like the Saints used him, splitting him out almost as much as lining him up next to the tackle, at least on 3rd downs.

Good question about Michael/Turbin. Pete doesn't seem to be married to either one of them, burning our first pick of the 2013 draft on Michael after Turbin had a fairly solid rookie season and Michael unable to beat out Turbin for the #2 spot, sometimes not even suiting up. My understanding is that Michael doesn't block very well, and as porous as our offensive line is, it is essential that we have a good blocking RB. Prior to Beast's re-signing, there was rumors that we might use our #1 pick to take a RB as this year's draft class seems to be relatively deep at that position, adding more fuel to speculation that neither of our RB's have a lock on the position once Beast is done.

[RiverDog]

I sort of come down in between Cbob and Tommy on the Rubin signing. I don't think he's going to be an impact player for us and have stated that I'll be ecstatic if all he does is replace what Kevin Williams gave us, but as Obi and OBS point out, this ain't Cleveland. Players here tend to elevate the play of their teammates and he'll be playing in front of the 12th man, of which the biggest advantage is derived by defensive linemen that get that added half second jump on OL's not present at other venues.

Plus you have to keep in mind that Pete Carroll has the best eye for defensive players of any HC in the league, and if he thinks Rubin is a good risk, it probably is. He hasn't gotten burned by too many lemons on defense. Pete's earned a lot of trust with me, at least on the defensive side of the ball. If Rubin can stay healthy (big if), he'll be a good situational player in our DL rotation. It gives us a bit of insurance/bargaining chip with regards to Mebane, of whom will be returning from injury and who is probably going to be asked to take a pay cut.

[NorthHawk]

I have to echo RD in the teams scouts and PC/JS to identify players who will fit what they want to do.
They have shown on the DL (unlike the OL) to be able to find a player and maximize his special talent or skill set to become an upgrade or to do something different from the year before that adds to the overall DL.
As well, he's only on a 1 year contract and as a team, the Seahawks aren't shy about admitting a mistake and moving on.

[Hawk Sista]

Welcome to the Fray, Tommy. I hope you stick around and offer another perspective. So long as you are not a troll, you are most welcome here.

"But who did he have to play with Tommy? You put him with our lineman and a c+ player becomes a B+ player. As the Zen Master once said we'll see!" Obi

This is exactly my reaction........ from what I have read (have not watched much Cleveland ball), injuries and a style that did not match Rubin's skill-set were the biggest contributing factors to his decline. AND...John and Pete have been superb at scouring other teams' castoffs - including the CFL - and finding solid situational and rotational players to bolster a stout D that has been # 1 over the last three years. Nothing about this move makes me think it will be any different than the other diamonds J & P brought to town, even if Mr. Rubin has been less effective on a crappy team with a fuster-cluck of craziness all around him. (see instable leadership, Johnny Clipboard, etc....) Even if it is not what we hope, he is on a one year make or break kinda deal just like Michael Bennett was. If we miss, we miss and we move on.

Look, I play my best golf when I play with good golfers rather than recreational golfers who talk in their own backswing let alone mine. This is more mental than anything else. Put Rubin in a positive environment with excellent coaching, a team first attitude, a mentality of winning forever, and the fact that he will have very solid players around him rotating in and out when appropriate...to say nothing of the talent behind him at LB and DB.

On the Hardy thing, we are not gonna rehash it all ( you can see the opinions in the thread about Hardy), but I have never read any comments from any Seahawk fan that suggest Greg Hardy would not make any D-line in the NFL better. NOBODY. Everyone knows that from a strictly talent perspective, Hardy was one of the top FAs available. What you are seeing here is a visceral reaction to the thought of that scumbag suiting up in college navy, wolf grey and action green. With a very few exceptions, fans in this forum (& team leadership) discussed the issue for a second and moved on to more realistic means of improving the line. The general consensus was: 1. Hardy is an awesome player and it would be great to have that talent in our rotation, ALSO - and more importantly....2. he is also a giant POS and nobody wants him around these parts and 3. There was NO WAY, with RW and Wags on the horizon, that the Hawks would have paid him 1/2 the cheddar that Jerry the idiot Jones & co paid for his crazy azz.

[NorthHawk]

I'm not as concerned about signing a scumbag as much as I'm concerned about his availability.
If we planned our Defense on pressure from him and he is suspended for half the year or he does it again and we lose him for the rest of the year, it could send the team into a tailspin.
He's not good enough for us to have to take the chance to possibly upset the "chemistry" like other teams.
Jones wants desperately to get a championship without Jimmy claiming to run the show, so he will take these types of chances.
The irony is they didn't start getting better until his son Stephen started taking more control of the draft process (reportedly led Jerry away from picking Manziel).
We'll see if that trend continues.

[RiverDog]

On the Hardy thing, we are not gonna rehash it all ( you can see the opinions in the thread about Hardy), but I have never read any comments from any Seahawk fan that suggest Greg Hardy would not make any D-line in the NFL better. NOBODY. Everyone knows that from a strictly talent perspective, Hardy was one of the top FAs available. What you are seeing here is a visceral reaction to the thought of that scumbag suiting up in college navy, wolf grey and action green. With a very few exceptions, fans in this forum (& team leadership) discussed the issue for a second and moved on to more realistic means of improving the line. The general consensus was: 1. Hardy is an awesome player and it would be great to have that talent in our rotation, ALSO - and more importantly....2. he is also a giant POS and nobody wants him around these parts and 3. There was NO WAY, with RW and Wags on the horizon, that the Hawks would have paid him 1/2 the cheddar that Jerry the idiot Jones & co paid for his crazy azz.

That pretty much sums up my sentiments about Greg Hardy.

[THX-1138]

Not for nothing but to add spare change:

Hardy? Seriously? Have we all forgotten about PeeWee Hardass and his high character antics? Hardy makes him look like Gandhi. I think Pete and the Schneid won't soon travel down the "road of lot's of talent only exceeded by asshattery" path. And Hardy isn't an asshat; he's a convicted abuser that's a free man because of a technicality. Play in the NFL? He shouldn't be walking the streets. No, I think the locker room is a better place with that guy effing up Dallas. He and Dez will be fast friends. Oh, and F Dallas. Bunch of bandwagon Duke fans on their team.

Rubin is a fine fit for the Hawks, a team that takes middling players and turns them into highly compensated free agents when their contracts come due. He will be rotational which will give him a better chance to be kept from injury and he is coming in with the smarts and the tools to play the position in a scheme that better fits his style of play.

O-line. That's the question mark.

[c_hawkbob]

The Rubin signing does nothing IMO. Adding Hardy would have been a huge impact and he would have had position flexibility like Bennett.

With no first round pick this year I expect to see a lot of OL and DL in the second through 4th.

You still around Tommy? How much impact you think Hardy would have had now with a 10 game suspension: http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nfl-shutd ... 34111.html

Dude's gonna be nothing but a distraction and he's still a POS. Glad we steered clear.

[NorthHawk]

It makes me wonder about the impact for players in the Draft with off field concerns.
Maybe Dorial Green-Beckham will still be there late in the 3rd.
His issues haven't to my knowledge been in any way similar to Hardy, but the character concerns are something that might impact some players in a big way.

[c_hawkbob]

Off field concerns are unquestionably become a greater concern for NFL teams, that will eventually have to be reflected in the draft.

[Hawk Sista]

10 games? Should be 10 years in my book. I understand that according the law....yadayadaya. Just sayin - POS is right

[NorthHawk]

Problems in the locker room in Dallas didn't take long with Hardy.
Apparently another DE called him a "Woman Beater" and others had to step in to separate them.
The other DE, Davon Coleman started at DE last year until he got hurt. He made the team as an Undrafted Free Agent.
It might be interesting to see what happens there this year.

[Hawktawk]

Truth hurts eh Greg?A little sensitive are we? LOL Jones looked like he finally had a team together then this off season happened with signing this POS the cherry on top. I hope one of his teammates beats him senseless.

[Vegaseahawk]

Great banter on Rubin. I learned a lot reading your opinions, & views. Thanks all, for some great poignant points on this important addition to our Seahawks.

PS Welcome to the shack, Tommy