Penalties

[RiverDog]

If there's a weakness in Pete Carroll-coached teams, it's penalties. We led the league last season, the first team in something like 30 years to do so and win the SB. There were a couple that were B.S., such as one of the holding calls against Carpenter and the false start, head bob, or what ever they made up on Unger, and the one on Percy when he went in motion but was called for a false start. But for the most part, we shot ourselves in the foot. 13 penalties in all. Touchdowns called back. Drive killers that took us out of scoring position.

Ironically, the league issued a mandate that was directed specifically at our secondary, but we haven't drawn an unusual amount of defensive holding/PI penalties. Most have been on offense. Holding. Delay of game. False starts. It was maddening. Three touchdowns called back. We should have put this game away in the first half, but the penalties kept a far inferior team alive right up until the last minute.

So what's the problem? Is it Pete's coaching style? Lack of discipline? A few things you can't say is that it's from being overly aggressive or a product of inexperience...one rookie in the starting offensive lineup (Justin Britt) and just a few new faces on defense. Or is it even a problem? After all, it's hard to argue against success.

[kalibane]

I think that's just part of the trade off of Pete Carroll's coaching style. I say that with a caveat though.

I don't have as much of a problem with the penalties that are a result of being aggressive. It's the ones that come from a lack of discipline that bother me. Those can and should be cleaned up.

[RiverDog]

I think that's just part of the trade off of Pete Carroll's coaching style. I say that with a caveat though.

I don't have as much of a problem with the penalties that are a result of being aggressive. It's the ones that come from a lack of discipline that bother me. Those can and should be cleaned up.

Yea, the late hits and USC penalties are the most frustrating, no doubt about it. And there are good penalties, like saving an interception on a poorly thrown pass or keeping your QB from getting killed.

But I do think that making reducing all penalties a priority is something that can be achieved by a well disciplined team. Mike Holmgren's teams were always amongst the fewest penalized because he simply didn't tolerate mistakes of any kind. Players feared having to come to the sidelines if they jumped offsides or were guilty of a hold that negated a touchdown. I don't think Pete has the same set of priorities when it comes to penalties. Like you said, it is a trade off in styles. There are other areas in Pete's coaching style that offsets his weakness in penalties.

[mykc14]

I think that's just part of the trade off of Pete Carroll's coaching style. I say that with a caveat though.

I don't have as much of a problem with the penalties that are a result of being aggressive. It's the ones that come from a lack of discipline that bother me. Those can and should be cleaned up.

I agree with this when it comes to the 'aggressive' type penalties, but the pre-snap penalties on the O are inexcusable. I can deal with an off-sides every once in a while as that is part of being aggresive, but there were obviously too many of those last night as well (on the D). With that being said there were AT LEAST 4 penalties that were really bad last night and in no way should have been called (Carp pancake, percy motion, unger head bob, and Bennett not actually going into the neutral zone but being called offside) and there were a few that were close or ticky-tac. It was one of the worst officiated games I have seen in awhile, especially with the obvious no-calls on Washington. I mean Sherm gets taken down by the hair and the facemask and that isn't called but Carp plants a guy and gets flagged. Also, not one holding penalty on Washington all night? I don't care if you are going to let them play but let both sides play.

[HumanCockroach]

I believe they said Seattle had. 9 Penalties coming into that game for the season, 3 a game doesn't wash with the penalty concern if what they said on the broadcast was correct.All three TD's that were brought back were horrible, blatantly BAD calls, so I'm not concerned with that aspect ( honestly to me it looked like the Refs were actively attempting to keep the game "competitive, maybe the NFL doesn't want more blow outs? Kind of funny to me, because all PT games have become that to date) There was no hold, there was no illegal motion, and Carpenter did exactly what every line coach teaches lineman to do from pee wee up, and happens in a majority of pro games.

There was a pretty blatant skewed officiating crew ( head bBob on a center looking back to the QB? Seriously?) Hell Sherman was dragged to the ground TWICE by his facemask and somehow that is all good, Wilson was hit late multiple times when delivering the ball, no calls. Eh, bad game for the officials, long layoff for the Seahawks, I expect that they will get back to few penalties shortly, new crew, less amped up, and not mitigated by nationally televised TV.

[Hawk Sista]

We haven't had a penalty problem this year, though most in the NFL blame the "new rules" of our style of play. Last night's problems will need to be addressed penalty-by-penalty. Percy in motion wasn't a penalty & Sherm getting mauled was. There were several no calls on Washington where we were called for far less. I think after Pete and Co. Examine each one, they will address it. But I want Carp to finish his man off... Just like he did. This is t a one size fits all answer here. Okung needs to be quicker off the ball. He's lost a step from his mounting injury situation. That was a depression hold, IMO. I hope he returns to pro-bowl form; he can be such a special player.

[HumanCockroach]

Just got done watching the game on DVR, and I have to say that may have been the worst officiated game I have seen since XL. Just bad blown calls all over the place ( and not just the ones that were costing Seattle and benefitting Washington, though there was a disproportionate amount in that regard) .

[mykc14]

Just got done watching the game on DVR, and I have to say that may have been the worst officiated game I have seen since XL. Just bad blown calls all over the place ( and not just the ones that were costing Seattle and benefitting Washington, though there was a disproportionate amount in that regard) .

I have to agree. I haven't re-watch it, but I felt the same way last night. Very poorly officiated.

[Long Time Fan]

Okung needs to be quicker off the ball. He's lost a step from his mounting injury situation. That was a depression hold, IMO. I hope he returns to pro-bowl form; he can be such a special player.

Sista,

When I watch RO I see the size and I really want to see special, but then I see him get off at the snap as if he is playing in sand and I am disillusioned. There may well be an ongoing injury issue with him. He appears to lack the explosion and nimbleness that marked the promise of his rookie season. His holds last night were egregious and appeared desperate. There were enough questions about this OL coming into this season, but last night leaks were springing up in way too many places all along the line. RO is in a contract year and I don't see how we can commit the requisite dollars to a left tackle that is regressing at this rate.

RO looks like Tarzan, plays like Jane. Jane is more than a step slow.

[Hawktawk]

The penalties late were horrible. There were at least 5 bad calls on Seattle and lots of no calls including Wilson getting hit while sliding. Ill be interested to see how Blandino breaks this down. It sure looked like there was an agenda to keep the game competitive.

[Zorn76]

It is what it is.

Get used to it.

[THX-1138]

Triplett's crew is seriously just about the worst crew in the game. It's criminal to put them in primetime games. They led the league in thrown hankies last year and they look to be on that same winning pace.

Near egregious incompetence. And we still won. Go kick rocks, NFL.

[obiken]

River it depends on the kind of penalties to me. DPI ok, we can handle the DB's being over aggressive, but the late hit by Carpenter? No way, the guy was already on the ground, and it cost us a TD. PHarvin had 3 scores taken away. So Off sides and holdings are unacceptable at the kind of rates we are getting them. So I would say that Offensive penalties are out, the offensive should know where they are going and what they are doing. The defense I can see it as they are more reactive.

[burrrton]

Near egregious incompetence.

This. That crew is just awful, and their crappiness was on full display Monday night.

[Hawktawk]

Dean Blandino was holding his usual segment discussing controversial calls. The commentator prefaced his question by commenting that Harvin had 3 scores taken off the board. Blandino only addressed the Carpenter *foul* with a weak ass explanation about a man on the ground receiving defenseless player protection. He is starting to remind me of "Baghdad" Mike Pierra defending the indefensible. The officiating was an abortion and just wait till Americas team rolls into town....Repeating isn't going to be easy if this is how its going to be....

[burrrton]

Blandino only addressed the Carpenter *foul* with a weak ass explanation about a man on the ground receiving defenseless player protection

Even that excuse fails, because since when does "defenseless player protection" mean that player can't be pushed or touched?

[c_hawkbob]

Carp did exactly what offensive linemen are taught to do; finish the pancake block by covering the man so he cant get up and reinvolve himself into the play should it extend itself. The "to the head and neck area of a defenseless player" is a serious stretch, he was more breaking his own fall than striking the man on the ground.

[burrrton]

I'd also like to add my nomination of the Harvin "false start" as the worst call of the night.

What receiver has ever false started with a turn like he's going in motion, and if it was a false start, why was the play not blown dead?

Just pick up your flag the next time you realize you shouldn't have thrown it, dumb@ss, instead of scrambling to come up with an excuse.

[THX-1138]

I'd also like to add my nomination of the Harvin "false start" as the worst call of the night.

What receiver has ever false started with a turn like he's going in motion, and if it was a false start, why was the play not blown dead?

Just pick up your flag the next time you realize you shouldn't have thrown it, dumb@ss, instead of scrambling to come up with an excuse.

I'll return the favor: ^^^^ This.

I actually thought a couple of times that they were going to pick up the flag and do the old "There was no penalty for such and such" routine, only to hear him actually try to call those penalties. A center head bobbing on a shotgun snap is a false start. Please. What a worthless crew. Obviously they will get the Super Bowl assignment this year.

[HumanCockroach]

Carp did exactly what offensive linemen are taught to do; finish the pancake block by covering the man so he cant get up and reinvolve himself into the play should it extend itself. The "to the head and neck area of a defenseless player" is a serious stretch, he was more breaking his own fall than striking the man on the ground.

This is spot on. EVERY offensive lineman is taught to do EXACTLY what Carpenter did, and I have personally watched hundreds of the exact same play happen, in the NFL, with NO flag over the last thirtey plus years. I'm OK with the explanation, IF they had thrown a flag on it prior to MNF game, barring that, it's an excuse period.

Interesting stat thrown out today, in NFL HISTORY only two games have had three TD's called back on penalties in the same game, anybody want to guess who was the lead official in BOTH games.....

[burrrton]

A center head bobbing on a shotgun snap is a false start. Please.

Oh yeah- that was another of my nominees.

[RiverDog]

I agree with the Carp hold (and said so earlier), Percy's false start, and Unger's head bob. All total B.S.

But we had 13 penalties. You can't rationalize all of them as bad calls.

[HumanCockroach]

No one here was talking about a hold on Carpenter, they were however discussing his unnecessary roughness call that brought back one of the three TD's. Okung had a phantom hold on another ( and after watching the play four times, there wasn't one) and Harvin got dinged for a false start on the third ( which wasn't). Ungers head Bob is a standard practice across the NFL on shotgun snaps, and should never have been called, the offsides called on Bennett was also a mystery as he moved after Williams false started.....

Of course they can't all be dismissed, just like blatant missed calls on Washington shouldn't be ignored either like the two times Garcon decided to grab Sherman 15 yards down the field by the facemask or hair to Garcon, how either of those calls aren't made is a mystery to me. Blatant hands to the face by Williams, as well as the false start.... All in all, a horribly called game top to bottom, Seattle played sloppy, but those flags should never have been thrown, and anyone thinking Washington didn't play sloppy as well in the penalty department, were NOT watching, they simply just refused to pull the flag.

[burrrton]

I agree with the Carp hold (and said so earlier), Percy's false start, and Unger's head bob. All total B.S.

But we had 13 penalties. You can't rationalize all of them as bad calls.

Definitely not, and I don't even have a problem with the Carp hold- he got his hands around the guy, pulled him back at least a little, and it looked very much like it could have kept the defender from making a play.

[RiverDog]

No one here was talking about a hold on Carpenter, they were however discussing his unnecessary roughness call that brought back one of the three TD's. Okung had a phantom hold on another ( and after watching the play four times, there wasn't one) and Harvin got dinged for a false start on the third ( which wasn't). Ungers head Bob is a standard practice across the NFL on shotgun snaps, and should never have been called, the offsides called on Bennett was also a mystery as he moved after Williams false started.....

Of course they can't all be dismissed, just like blatant missed calls on Washington shouldn't be ignored either like the two times Garcon decided to grab Sherman 15 yards down the field by the facemask or hair to Garcon, how either of those calls aren't made is a mystery to me. Blatant hands to the face by Williams, as well as the false start.... All in all, a horribly called game top to bottom, Seattle played sloppy, but those flags should never have been thrown, and anyone thinking Washington didn't play sloppy as well in the penalty department, were NOT watching, they simply just refused to pull the flag.

My apologies. I meant the penalty that he got called on Carp that negated one of Percy's TD's. The Unger head bob was nonsense, too. He didn't move his head anymore than what is legally permitted. The bad thing was that they met to discuss the penalty and still couldn't get it right. Most of the bad calls cited in this thread I agree with. They were at the very least very marginal.

But you're missing the point. The reason I made the comment that you can't rationalize all of our penalty problems by saying that they are the result of bad calls is that the discussion seems to have wandered away from the OP, which is that we the most heavily penalized team in football and that a high number of penalties is a trait of Pete Carroll coached teams.

BTW, I hear that Bill Leavy is supposed to work this Sunday's game.

[HumanCockroach]

The hold was on Okung, not Carpenter on the negated TD by Harvin, Carpenter got flagged for a PF that negated another. Easy to mix them up.

As to your "point" haven't rationalized the bulk of the penalties, I am simply pointing out blown calls, both by pointing to an obscene number of "no calls" on the Skins and "questionable" ( BS calls) on the Hawks, as someone that has staunchly posted and stood by the XL game being a matter of a "championship" team overcoming blown calls, I feel secure in my assessment of the officiating in that game being the worst I've seen in a long, long time.Fortunately, Seattle in this game, displayed what they are indeed made of, and overcame the horrid calls made that turned it into a game, and not a blow out. Penalties happen, especially after a long layoff, my point was that coming INTO the game, this was one of the least penalised teams in the NFL ( I think second or third least) which IMHO is pretty damn impressive and does NOT coincide with your claim to the contrary.

I commented on five penalties that were horseshite, and pointed out three on the Skins that were blatantly missed, if you want to say that was me rationalizing all of them, be my guest, it isn't.

[burrrton]

The hold was on Okung, not Carpenter on the negated TD by Harvin

Check this, HC- I'm pretty sure it was Carp, not Okung, that held to negate Harvin's TD (on the sweep, and correctly IMO). Then Harvin had his second TD negated on the bogus "illegal motion... er, false start" call against him, then Carp got the bogus UC to negate Harvin's third.

This is why Carp was saying he was going to have to apologize to Percy after the game.

Okung did have a holding call that was complete nonsense, too, but it wasn't the one that took a TD off the board.

[RiverDog]

my point was that coming INTO the game, this was one of the least penalised teams in the NFL ( I think second or third least) which IMHO is pretty damn impressive and does NOT coincide with your claim to the contrary

Doesn't coincide with my claim that penalties is an attribute of a Pete Carroll coached team?...ROFLMAO! Ever since Pete took over, we've been one of if not the highest penalized teams in the league, and now we're right back up there again.

[HumanCockroach]

RDThis team has been "clean" this season, which makes the blown calls even MORE egregious not less. They are not "right back up there" they are now middle of the pack, I would hope, that the continued Ray Charles version of officiating doesn't follow this team, but this team WAS playing clean football, and certainly played much cleaner than it appears in that stats sheet.

Laugh all you want, those are simply the fact in this situation. Seattle has matured, penalties have gone down ( as they always do with teams as they mature) and I don't expect that to change, regardless of your bias in this matter.

Edit: my bad, they are not middle of the pack, they are still amongst the league leaders.

http://www.footballdb.com/stats/penalties.html

[kalibane]

The Seahawks do have some sloppy penalties. Too many false starts and offsides. Some of the penalties were from that. But some of them I also just chalk up to Tripplet's terrible officiating crew.

[burrrton]

Edit: my bad, they are not middle of the pack, they are still amongst the league leaders.

Doesn't that show us firmly in the middle of the pack?

You're right, though, that we were doing well before this game, averaging ~6 penalties/game.

[HumanCockroach]

Guess it depends on how you want to read it. They are 8th in the league in penalties, and much higher in lost yardage, I would consider that amongst the league leaders in regards to number of penalties while further down if all I was to do was count the teams with one or two less Either way, they certainly aren't one of the worst, or really even close to it ( at least this season) and that number is drastically inflated by that abortion on MNF ( interesting the Skins are right at the top and yet had only two penalties for the game).

[THX-1138]

I agree with the Carp hold (and said so earlier), Percy's false start, and Unger's head bob. All total B.S.

But we had 13 penalties. You can't rationalize all of them as bad calls.

And I agree with that as well. It just seems highly suspect that the Skins had zero offensive holding calls. None. Nada. Zip. Zilch. When it's pretty common knowledge that you could ALMOST call holding on every offensive snap.

Egregious incompetence.

[Hawktawk]

Monday night game was a perfect example albeit a bit extreme of why Seattle is among the most penalized teams in the league. We had a few obvious fouls by Okung and a couple of stupid off sides penalties. But we also had an inordinately high number of flat out bad calls as has been discussed. And as usual there are the no calls, the ones against Sherman were outrageous. How the F do you miss that twice with a player as visible as Sherman????Especially when there's supposed to be an emphasis on offensive holds and PI as well?

It cant all be our style of play. It just seems like refs have a chubby for the Hawks. Its going to be very difficult for our secondary to keep doing their job if this is how its going to get called. It wasn't just the Hawks game, receivers are pushing off more violently than ever, definitely in the 9ers game.The Donkeys are back to running their illegal picks.They can see it isn't being enforced.More of Goody two shoes mark on the NFL. Ugggh.........

[Hawk Sista]

I'm watching this game over and I'm really trying to wear my Blandino goggles. I've watched some of the BIG penalties over and over but just cannot see what he sees. While I admit my goggles are blue/green, this game was horribly officiated. It was not consistently so (meaning they failed to throw sh1tt7 suspect calls both ways..: in fact, they missed some pretty blatant fouls) which makes it hard to objectively have this discussion RIGHT now.

2 of the 3 TDs called back were totally bogus and robot Dean Blandino can't even acknowledge that after the fact. I'm sure glad we won in spite of it. I said it & Bob said it... Carp finished his man off in a way that made me proud. I hope he doesn't regress for fear of the hankies.

Now, were there some calls that were fair? You bet. Do we (you know...Pete & the boys) need to address those? Of course. But hangin those 13 penalties on Pete while holding your head high from last season is a little more than I can get behind. I think Pete's style still bugs you, my friend...& I think you are looking to find fault - consciously or not. You know I love you, so I challenge you to see what was right about how Pete has handled the first 1/4 of the season instead of what's wrong w/ him.

[RiverDog]

I'm watching this game over and I'm really trying to wear my Blandino goggles. I've watched some of the BIG penalties over and over but just cannot see what he sees. While I admit my goggles are blue/green, this game was horribly officiated. It was not consistently so (meaning they failed to throw sh1tt7 suspect calls both ways..: in fact, they missed some pretty blatant fouls) which makes it hard to objectively have this discussion RIGHT now.

2 of the 3 TDs called back were totally bogus and robot Dean Blandino can't even acknowledge that after the fact. I'm sure glad we won in spite of it. I said it & Bob said it... Carp finished his man off in a way that made me proud. I hope he doesn't regress for fear of the hankies.

Now, were there some calls that were fair? You bet. Do we (you know...Pete & the boys) need to address those? Of course. But hangin those 13 penalties on Pete while holding your head high from last season is a little more than I can get behind. I think Pete's style still bugs you, my friend...& I think you are looking to find fault - consciously or not. You know I love you, so I challenge you to see what was right about how Pete has handled the first 1/4 of the season instead of what's wrong w/ him.

Oh, I've fully accepted Pete's personality/style and admitted that I was wrong about my claim that it was more suited for the college game. My point is that, like all styles, there are advantages and disadvantages, and IMO penalties are one of the disadvantages to his style.

As far as your challenge about what's right about Pete's handling of the first 1/4 of the season, I wish you participated over at Seahawks.net, as I defended Pete in his game management actions vs. the Chargers. There were a number of posters over there, including our old friend Jacknut, that were very critical of him not going for it on 4th and 2 with 3 minutes left, down by 6, and on his own 38 yard line. I have not seen any game management decisions that I disagreed with, nor any stupid challenges. I liked his decision to end the Earl PR experiment. His patience with Carpenter seems to finally be paying off.

Enough?

[Hawk Sista]

Yeas, my dear. That will do. I think Pete wants an UBER AGRESSIVE team in all phases of the game. To the extent that we are penalized on that front, you have a point. The LOS penalties were the killers and I am quite certain it will be addressed in time for this weekend's match-up. If penalties continue to hamper us, it's a fair point.

I was just steaming mad after having watched a game that was HORRIBLY officiated taking points off of the board. It's tough to engage in an objective dialogue after having been so blatantly hosed, for me at least. Despite having a million penalties last weekend, we are still middle of the pack. I'm ok with that. As I've said, I want James to finish off his man like he did on that TD reversal EVERY TIME! The Harvin and Unger penalties were disturbingly bad, too.

Let's revisit this after this weekend and see where we end up. Sorry if I sound snotty and maybe I will check out the website you mention. Have a good weekend.

[c_hawkbob]

Oh I like the new avatar Sis! (If I wasn't already spoken for ...)

[Hawk Sista]

- thanks, Bob. Just glad to have hair and to be back - kinda.

[c_hawkbob]

And I couldn't be happier for you, and selfishly, the rest of us here