Something strange about Harvin's return

[HumanCockroach]

LOL, yeah it's to bad Moss ruined Harvin in his four game stint at the end of his second year with him AFTER the most productive years he ever had in NE. Something tells me the Pats wouldn't accept a play when you feel like it attitude on that 18-1 team. Your grasping at straws here man. Moss didn't change Harvins practice habits ( as you yourself pointed out in this thread he had problem PRIOR to being anywhere NEAR Moss). Make up your mind. No one here with their eyes shut, just people that understand that the purpose of the media is to get ratings ( and as such they pick out players that draw attention and speculate, or outright lie to get those), or people that understand that young men make bad decisions, lie, make mistakes. Profess whatever you want, but you yourself admit to giving guys with ability slack in your job. Puking behind a dumpster, and then going to work, isn't and never will be the same as having surgery, and then getting pummelled by pro athletes.

Plenty of us have higher pain thresholds, or a stronger work ethic, doesn't mean we ALL do, and it does NOT make us the judge of guys that don't. I learned a long time ago, that placing the same expectations or priorities on others is about the dumbest damn thing a man can do, you will ALWAYS be disappointed in someone that you do that with, because it is YOUR priorities not theirs.

That whole religious "judge not less ye' be judged " thing, stone from glass houses thing. Not religious myself but it seems to fit more often than not. Harvin has made mistakes, as we ALL have, I believe in allowing them a chance to redeem themselves, something that cannot be accomplished until he is healthy enough to play.

[Hawktawk]

But thats the point we sceptics are trying to make. IMO he WAS healthy enough to play, he just hasnt felt like it. The only reason he has been held out is his own reporting of pain. If Lynch says hes too hurt to play, or god forbid Wilson, Tate, Unger etc I have no doubts. Harvins track record incdluding suspiciously feeling great(and looking great) to play against his old team makes me wonder. Couple that with the fact that he wasnt listed on any inury report following the game and didnt report any discomfort until a week later when it was time to PRACTICE, well yknow Im not buying it. I said a few days ago that PC floating the IR trial balloon was a last ditch effort to motivate PH to get off his rear and earn his money. And I think it might have worked, based in part on Harvins own words on social media. Again, I hope as do many that this is a turning over of a new leaf and the guy is all that and a bag of chips, but I have to see it to believe it.

[HumanCockroach]

Have no issue with being skeptical, my issue is professing that as fact. I agree with it doesn't look good, what I do not agree with, and never will, is judging someone guilty, before there is an admission, or barring that, something more concrete than he looked good his first game, he's lying now. Maybe it's a residual effect from being judged by the cover too much growing up, hell I don't know, but I will always feel strongly about professions about what a person is, or what they are doing prior to actually knowing or talking to the person first hand. Just my nature to not profess guilt prior to knowing for sure, or at the very least having something more concrete than say, some missed practices, or lingering injury issues that no one knows what is really going on with not directly involved with it.

It's possible everything posted for the entire year is correct, it's also possible it is all crap. Until I see something more convincing than an NFL ratings grab, or printed ratings grab, he gets the benefit of the doubt in my book. Until proven guilty the guy remains innocent. More often than not I find it funny that the "skeptics" turn out to be the ones that hated the trade originally. Just like the Irvin is a bust folks turn out to be those that hated the pick. Etc. It's a cycle that turns every season, until proven wrong. So I say be patient, before casting judgement, wait, and see...

[Eaglehawk]

I believe we are dead on about Harvin. An unbelievable, undeniable talent that was coddled and allowed to get away with too much because of that talent. It's made him rich, but not respected. You may not be Harvin-rich, but because of your work ethic, you likely have the respect he does not. So the easy question is; what matters more...money or respect? It's a question I've wrestled with my entire life...and have concluded both are attainable. I am hopeful Harvin will earn respect as he earns his money. As the rest of our team does.

+1

[RiverDog]

But thats the point we sceptics are trying to make. IMO he WAS healthy enough to play, he just hasnt felt like it. The only reason he has been held out is his own reporting of pain. If Lynch says hes too hurt to play, or god forbid Wilson, Tate, Unger etc I have no doubts. Harvins track record incdluding suspiciously feeling great(and looking great) to play against his old team makes me wonder. Couple that with the fact that he wasnt listed on any inury report following the game and didnt report any discomfort until a week later when it was time to PRACTICE, well yknow Im not buying it. I said a few days ago that PC floating the IR trial balloon was a last ditch effort to motivate PH to get off his rear and earn his money. And I think it might have worked, based in part on Harvins own words on social media. Again, I hope as do many that this is a turning over of a new leaf and the guy is all that and a bag of chips, but I have to see it to believe it.

That's the closest opinion to that of my own. Thanks for saving me the keystrokes, Hawktawk!

[NorthHawk]

But thats the point we sceptics are trying to make. IMO he WAS healthy enough to play, he just hasnt felt like it. The only reason he has been held out is his own reporting of pain. If Lynch says hes too hurt to play, or god forbid Wilson, Tate, Unger etc I have no doubts. Harvins track record incdluding suspiciously feeling great(and looking great) to play against his old team makes me wonder. Couple that with the fact that he wasnt listed on any inury report following the game and didnt report any discomfort until a week later when it was time to PRACTICE, well yknow Im not buying it. I said a few days ago that PC floating the IR trial balloon was a last ditch effort to motivate PH to get off his rear and earn his money. And I think it might have worked, based in part on Harvins own words on social media. Again, I hope as do many that this is a turning over of a new leaf and the guy is all that and a bag of chips, but I have to see it to believe it.

That's the closest opinion to that of my own. Thanks for saving me the keystrokes, Hawktawk!

I'm ALMOST at the polar opposite.
When someone comes back from major surgery - and does so at the early stages of the expected return date range and then has to have fluid drained and has extra movement in the joint, I have to seriously consider he wasn't fully healed when he did return. Regardless of any past indescretions, THIS was major surgery for a player that relies on a finely honed edge of performance to properly contribute.

What we will never know is any medical reports or evaluations as to if he is close to playing at the expected level. For all we know he has some doctors saying he can ruin his career if he plays and others saying he can't do much more damage. He might just be taking his time to decide if he should risk it.

It's a lot easier for us to make that decision for him because we wouldn't have to live with the risk or result.

[HumanCockroach]

Spot on.

[c_hawkbob]

But thats the point we sceptics are trying to make. IMO he WAS healthy enough to play, he just hasnt felt like it. The only reason he has been held out is his own reporting of pain. If Lynch says hes too hurt to play, or god forbid Wilson, Tate, Unger etc I have no doubts. Harvins track record incdluding suspiciously feeling great(and looking great) to play against his old team makes me wonder. Couple that with the fact that he wasnt listed on any inury report following the game and didnt report any discomfort until a week later when it was time to PRACTICE, well yknow Im not buying it. I said a few days ago that PC floating the IR trial balloon was a last ditch effort to motivate PH to get off his rear and earn his money. And I think it might have worked, based in part on Harvins own words on social media. Again, I hope as do many that this is a turning over of a new leaf and the guy is all that and a bag of chips, but I have to see it to believe it.

That's the closest opinion to that of my own. Thanks for saving me the keystrokes, Hawktawk!

I'm ALMOST at the polar opposite.
When someone comes back from major surgery - and does so at the early stages of the expected return date range and then has to have fluid drained and has extra movement in the joint, I have to seriously consider he wasn't fully healed when he did return. Regardless of any past indescretions, THIS was major surgery for a player that relies on a finely honed edge of performance to properly contribute.

What we will never know is any medical reports or evaluations as to if he is close to playing at the expected level. For all we know he has some doctors saying he can ruin his career if he plays and others saying he can't do much more damage. He might just be taking his time to decide if he should risk it.

It's a lot easier for us to make that decision for him because we wouldn't have to live with the risk or result.

This is my thinking as well.

[Gaza626]

I agree with NorthHawk. However, regardless of the actual truth here, the fact that the Hawks are intimating that PH might play is causing the opponent to game plan for the possibility. Advantage Hawks!!!

[RiverDog]

But thats the point we sceptics are trying to make. IMO he WAS healthy enough to play, he just hasnt felt like it. The only reason he has been held out is his own reporting of pain. If Lynch says hes too hurt to play, or god forbid Wilson, Tate, Unger etc I have no doubts. Harvins track record incdluding suspiciously feeling great(and looking great) to play against his old team makes me wonder. Couple that with the fact that he wasnt listed on any inury report following the game and didnt report any discomfort until a week later when it was time to PRACTICE, well yknow Im not buying it. I said a few days ago that PC floating the IR trial balloon was a last ditch effort to motivate PH to get off his rear and earn his money. And I think it might have worked, based in part on Harvins own words on social media. Again, I hope as do many that this is a turning over of a new leaf and the guy is all that and a bag of chips, but I have to see it to believe it.

That's the closest opinion to that of my own. Thanks for saving me the keystrokes, Hawktawk!

I'm ALMOST at the polar opposite.
When someone comes back from major surgery - and does so at the early stages of the expected return date range and then has to have fluid drained and has extra movement in the joint, I have to seriously consider he wasn't fully healed when he did return. Regardless of any past indescretions, THIS was major surgery for a player that relies on a finely honed edge of performance to properly contribute.

What we will never know is any medical reports or evaluations as to if he is close to playing at the expected level. For all we know he has some doctors saying he can ruin his career if he plays and others saying he can't do much more damage. He might just be taking his time to decide if he should risk it.

It's a lot easier for us to make that decision for him because we wouldn't have to live with the risk or result.

If that's the case, then Pete didn't know of any medical reports or evaluations of which you described, either, which I find extremely hard to believe. Sorry, North, but that one doesn't pass the smell test.

I've read every single comment in this forum plus comments in two other forums on this matter from perhaps two dozen or so posters along with various articles on ESPN, Fox, CBS, and other websites, and not a single person or columnist has been able to explain to me how Pete Carroll can describe Percy's injury status as being "a personal thing" and that he was quite probably going to need the offseason to recuperate just 6 hours before Harvin decides to return to practice. I guess I must be some sort of dunce because I still don't get it.

[HumanCockroach]

This isn't the first time Carroll has used it, if I had to guess it won't be the last. Last season when Carpenter was brought back early and got re injured he ended up on the "non football injury list", even though it was football related. Not sure exactly how all the designations are used, or what ramification they have, however, it was also a "personal" thing last season for Carpenter. Take it for what it's worth. Also not sure how you can ignore that complications can arise, or that Carroll isn't always the most forth coming. You of ALL people should grasp Carrolls rope a dope when it comes to info, not sure what makes you think he didn't have the info, or WHY you would expect him to share that info with the general public is beyond me.

[NorthHawk]

This isn't the first time Carroll has used it, if I had to guess it won't be the last. Last season when Carpenter was brought back early and got re injured he ended up on the "non football injury list", even though it was football related. Not sure exactly how all the designations are used, or what ramification they have, however, it was also a "personal" thing last season for Carpenter. Take it for what it's worth. Also not sure how you can ignore that complications can arise, or that Carroll isn't always the most forth coming. You of ALL people should grasp Carrolls rope a dope when it comes to info, not sure what makes you think he didn't have the info, or WHY you would expect him to share that info with the general public is beyond me.

I think there might be something to that as well.
RD, remember when we discussed PC and his way with the media on the old PI Forum?
There was a discussion about how he came across a little like a used car salesman and it was something we weren't completely comfortable with.
I think this might be an example of how his comments can be taken in a number of ways and possibly mislead many or some of us either intentionally or not.
As long as we keep winning it's just a minor concern, and it makes for a good discussion with varying viewpoints, but it also means we don't know all of what is going on.
And we probably never will.

[monkey]

All I know is that, while there is speculation that Harvin may or may not have been dogging it to avoid practices, (and may or may not have done the same thing in Minnesota), the only actual FACTS we have are that, 1. he had surgery on his hip, and 2. He came back somewhat earlier from that surgery than expected.
Everything else is just speculation, and speculation that may be based on nothing more than coincidence.

There IS NO PROOF that he's been dogging it, but we CAN PROVE that he was hurt and had surgery.
So IMO it's kind of silly to even discuss it without any credible evidence. All we have is a bunch of theories, ones which really look silly in light of how hard he actually practices and plays when he is on the field.
Ask ANY former teammate from Minny, they will all say that Harvin was incredible in practices, that he really set the bar in terms of work ethic.
Yes, he missed quite a few practices, apparently with migraines, but that, in-and-of-itself is NOT proof of a lack of work ethic. He was FACTUALLY being medically treated for those migraines though.

I'm not saying that this whole thing doesn't at least smell funny...it does. I admit that none of it really seems to pass the smell test, but aside from our fallible noses, we have no real proof of anything.

So until I do, I am going to assume that Harvin is just recovering from surgery, and that this sort of thing is just the normal process athletes go through when recovering from it and nothing more.
And I will continue to hope like crazy that he can play throughout the playoffs for us, as we could CERTAINLY use him!!!

[c_hawkbob]

Of Percy Harvin I believe this:

"He had major surgery in his hip,there's a lot of people that walk around for years getting back from that, and he's trying to do it in months. He's not trying to just get back to being a normal human being, walking down the street. He goes a million miles an hour and throws his body everywhere, and he has to be perfectly fit to do that."

and this:

"There was a time when I thought that maybe he wouldn't have a chance to take the turn that he needed, within the last month or so because I knew it was getting down (to it). He needs a couple of weeks. Now we have a couple of weeks and we'll see what happens.

and this:

Really, there's no game plan here. There's nothing behind this. We've got a young guy that's trying to get back on the team and see if he can help his team win. We'll see if it happens. There's no strategy to this or anything like that. We're just pulling for him, and if he can contribute, that will be great.

Because they are what the guy that has the most inside information and the most invested in his success both this year and in the long term has said. I really don't think Pete's trying to pull anything here or is being coy or any of that. I believe it's just been a long frustrating situation and where we are now with it is exactly as he says. The rest is just speculative twaddle.

[monkey]

I agree Bob.

[HumanCockroach]

Yup, yup, and yup. Monkey, Bob and North are pretty spot on, and echo my sentiments as well.

[HawkWow]

I've said all I need to say on the Harvin issue (and obviously hope for his success...and the sooner the better). So I will shift my attention to Pete for a moment.

A few are entertaining the thought Pete was playing some sort of game regarding Harvin's status over the past few weeks. One comment in particular: "I don't know what's wrong, I think it's a personal thing" just does not sound like gamesmanship to me. The biggest reasons, if that comment was untrue:

1) I think it way out of character for any coach, at any level, to use such a comment in describing his new star player. Especially one as touchy as Percy and his already tarnished image. Such talk is reserved for players that need motivation or a public bashing IE Spurrier on Clowney.

2) Harvin, for being the most dangerous player in football, doesn't exactly haunt the airwaves pimping shaving cream or laundry soap. If he has any endorsement deals at all, I am unaware of them. Some might say.."hey the guy just signed a 60 mil deal...he don't care about endorsements". That would be naïve, and even if Harvin didn't care, you can bet his agents do. There is no agent alive that after already taking the Hawks money, would allow his client to be spoken of in this "it's a personal thing" manner. Not a chance, especially when you have to believe his PR people would like to clean the image up a bit.

So, IMO, when Pete uses such language, it's ONLY because he means it. And if that's what it took to resurrect Harvin, more the reason to love Pete. Make Pete proud, Percy. He stuck his neck out for you and made you a rich man. Go Hawks.

[Hawk Sista]

Bob - I believe Pete too. I listened to several real time interviews with him on the subject and there is indeed a lot of "stuff" (to quote Carroll) going on in this situation. I also believe that there is a lot that Pete does not say about the situation...and that is as it should be.

The fans, opponents, media all want simple & quick answers to an ever-evolving and nuanced issue .... and, imho, that is also as it should be. It is in our nature (some of us anyway) to want the details, but it is not in a scheming coach's nature (or best interest) to be 100% transparent. It is fun to speculate and try to piece together a press conference here.... with historical information there.... with past practice and assumptions to land on a GUESS at what is happening. At the end of the day, it is all just a heap of speculation. We all do it and it is OK to do it; I think a healthy understanding of what is reality and what is speculative is in order.... some folks feel like they have a right to know every bit of it, and that just ain't realistic.

There most certainly is a strategy to how information is shared (when, with whom and in what forum). People have doctoral degrees in this stuff, ya know. We know what they want us to know - and there are pieces to this that we will never know. What I really wanna know is how this will (or won't) translate to the field come the 10th.

[RiverDog]

This isn't the first time Carroll has used it, if I had to guess it won't be the last. Last season when Carpenter was brought back early and got re injured he ended up on the "non football injury list", even though it was football related. Not sure exactly how all the designations are used, or what ramification they have, however, it was also a "personal" thing last season for Carpenter. Take it for what it's worth. Also not sure how you can ignore that complications can arise, or that Carroll isn't always the most forth coming. You of ALL people should grasp Carrolls rope a dope when it comes to info, not sure what makes you think he didn't have the info, or WHY you would expect him to share that info with the general public is beyond me.

I think there might be something to that as well.
RD, remember when we discussed PC and his way with the media on the old PI Forum?
There was a discussion about how he came across a little like a used car salesman and it was something we weren't completely comfortable with.
I think this might be an example of how his comments can be taken in a number of ways and possibly mislead many or some of us either intentionally or not.
As long as we keep winning it's just a minor concern, and it makes for a good discussion with varying viewpoints, but it also means we don't know all of what is going on.
And we probably never will.

Oh, I remember those days well, and I've come to know Pete a lot better. But his used car personality usually comes when he's high as a kite after a win, like his "we're going to build around Tavaris" statement a few years back, or after he signs a draft pick or FA and wants to butter him up for the masses and pulls out all the superlatives. He's usually a lot more reserved and matter-of-fact when he's speaking at team head quarters than he is when he's doing a post game interview. IMO the comments about Harvin in his weekday press conferences and interviews were not done by Pete the used car salesman. That's why his body language was bothering me. He was becoming progressively negative about a possible Harvin return without giving us any specific details as to why he was becoming more and more pessimistic, and the sudden change in just 6 hours was too much for me to rationalize.

I've laid out my arguments about Harvin and why I'm concerned. They haven't changed so there's no sense re-hashing them again. I respect your opinion and that of other good folks like Cbob and sis, but they haven't changed my opinion one iota. I still smell a fish. The only thing that is going to soothe my soul will be when Percy gets on the field, is producing consistent results at least reasonably close to the expectations we were given when we made the trade, and he shows himself to be completely dedicated to team goals. Simply putting on a Seahawks uniform doesn't mean he's as pure as the wind driven snow and can be given the benefit of the doubt. He needs to earn my trust, especially in light of his past. Ironically, I think Percy himself feels he has something to prove to us, which might have been one of the reasons that motivated him to come back.