EXTREMELY DISAPPOINTED IN HAWKS

[obiken]

Its not about Clark its about Okung going down is a probability, just a matter of how long. He is a walking accident. Then we draft 2 guards one might make it. IF you get 2 starters out 7 you are lucky. Lockett is one who the other. The DB's are fillers at best. I don't know I give them a bad grade c- at best.

[Stream Hawk]

I am cool with our draft. We added an explosive pass rusher on the dline and a potential stud as wr/pr/kr. Lockett could be a good guy's Percy Harvin. We addressed oline in the 4th and both of those guys have serious upside. It sounds like Tye Smith will easily fit in nicely with the Hawks. And we got some sweet depth after that. But, regarding Frank Clark. One thing we all have to understand is Pete and John are husbands and fathers, much like many of us on this board. I have to trust their judgment on this one.

Simply stated, these guys have earned my trust. While I hate what I read in that police report, I just have to this trust that Pete and John would never choose to add this guy if they didn't wholeheartedly believe his story. A couple of my friends know John and Traci well - and John is definitely not some fly by the seat of the pants type of GM. Pete and John scoured allegations and found that the reason Frank Clark was not charged is because this was NOT like a Hardy case where the victim was paid off -- or there wasn't enough evidence. I admit I don't know sh** about the underlying facts of the case (and none of us possibly can), but I simply believe that our Hawks made the correct choice here. Frank Clark is dedicated to his craft as a defensive end/Leo and I believe he will do quite well with us.

Go Hawks --- is it preseason yet?!
Stream

[obiken]

You guys don't get it. We add some 1st rate OL and Marshawn runs for a country mile, now the only running game we will have is RW running for his life. We didn't need another defensive player.

[c_hawkbob]

You guys don't get it. We add some 1st rate OL and Marshawn runs for a country mile, now the only running game we will have is RW running for his life. We didn't need another defensive player.

You don't stay the best defense in the league by ignoring your defense. You have to keep improving yourself just to maintain the same level. It's like swimming upstream, you tread water you're backing up.

[obiken]

That's fine Bob but the draft of 2011 is over and both the top picks are gone. That leaves Britt, Sweezy, and Bowie, as the OL pickups in the PC era, (RO was no Brainy) I am sorry those guys are ham and eggers. The rest that we have drafted are gone or taxi squad. We have 7 DT's and 12 DE's!! Granted some will be gone but come on.
There's a lot of the draft day whining that after we won the title I had to let go of; like loading up on, 18 Db's, but after Sherm, Kam, Browner, and Maxwell who I am to argue! People forget that when Max and RO were out our offense was a joke, RW was getting nothing done, and the losses were mounting.
I understand that sometimes coaches can do no right by us fans, but other times they cant fail. Suppose Clark is really a bust and the kid out of OSU is a great player? PC is a genius, either way right?? We draft an another All American Center out of Oregon to replace the All-Pro out of Oregon and we would have been just fine. Now the Bears and the Saints will have 2 two good centers from my alma matter. Go figure bubba.

[SalmonBB]

People forget that when Max and RO were out our offense was a joke, RW was getting nothing done, and the losses were mounting.

Maybe, but when Max was out ... we won all our games. I've heard a lot of commiserating about the loss of Max Unger, and have kept somewhat quiet because I liked him. With this said, las year he seemed to drop off a bit. Namely, he was making uncharacteristic mistakes last year, and was getting penalized. I can remember two or three times where he just seemed out of touch with RW, taking a whole lot of time to look around and make line calls as the clock wound down to "0", and forcing us to take a time-out or incur a delay of game call. I started to wonder if he was taking his starting position for granted.

Our offense, while they struggled last year in the openings of games, overall had a pretty good record. Our run game was a testament to Marshawn - and to the line who blocked for him. Yes, I agree ... pass protection must improve ... but if we want to run, then give me Sweazy, Britt, Lewis, Carpenter (too bad he's gone) and Okung.

I agree we need help, and perhaps taking an O-lineman higher might have been a good thing. But 3rd ound last year and 4th round this year aren't picks that are in the dumps. For that matter, one could argue that the 7th round isn't either.

Our O-line can certainly improve ... but I'm not as down on 'em as many are. In addition, I think Lewis and Jean-Pierre will fill in just fine in place of Unger, as they did last year ... as hard as it is for those who are tied by their hearts to Unger to accept, they may even be an improvement.

GO SEAHAWKS!!!

[RiverDog]

You guys don't get it. We add some 1st rate OL and Marshawn runs for a country mile, now the only running game we will have is RW running for his life. We didn't need another defensive player.

I said that in past years, too. Despite a need for several years, we haven't drafted a OL with one of our top 3-4 picks for about 3 years now. But the team keeps winning, and that's all I care about. Those guys have earned my respect when it comes to talent appraisal.

This season, I don't see any glaring oversights. I don't have a problem with any of the selections we've made, even Frank Clark. If he has talent, is coachable, will make a good teammate, and if they feel he'll be a good citizen unlikely to repeat is his past transgressions, then I'm OK with their selection. What I do wish is that Pete and John do away with this phone charade of theirs that they have this unique set of morals they live by when it comes to procuring talent. They don't, or at least not anymore than teams like the Cowboys and Patriots. They're all about winning and making money. And I'm OK with that, if we were honest about it.

[HumanCockroach]

Sorry RD didn't Seattle draft Britt as their first pick last season? The Hawks generally usually use at least one, the only draft to my knowledge the did not do that was 2012 were they drafted Irvin, Wagner and Wilson.

[NorthHawk]

Our Offense (specifically OL) has been the weak part of the team for a few years.
I find it odd and maybe a little unsettling that after losing 2 starting OL they wait until the first (perhaps top) 25 or so linemen have gone before selecting 2.
Even teams with good OLs like Cincinnati and Dallas took OL before we did. If their (Cincy and Dallas) picks pan out, they will be in a position to keep their costs down by letting good players go in FA and replacing them with less expensive 2nd and 3rd round picks.

[Oly]

I think it's important to remember that they grade for their depth chart, not for the NFL. On the Lockett pick, it's pretty clear that he's an immediate starter at PR and KR. That was our weakest single position, and they found an instant starter, which they probably couldn't have done at the OL with that pick.

That brings up the Clark pick, which I still don't like for the off-the-field reasons. But it's pretty clear that when Avril goes down, the drop off to the #2 LEO is HUGE. Given the importance of the pass rush with the front 4 in the Hawks' defense, and the fact that they think Clark can fill that need immediately, I could see how they prioritized that position over OL. Now, if they had believed there was an OL that could immediately be a serious challenger for a starting OL position and they took a backup LEO instead, I would be scratching my head. But it's also entirely possible that they had really similar grades on a bunch of OL and figured that the quality dropoff wasn't huge between them.

I have no idea how it went down, but it's also not clear to me that the FO dropped the ball by not picking a lineman earlier.

[Hawk Sista]

As far as what positions they drafted & when, who am I to say? I've questioned many of their picks only to be giganticly wrong (although I was at least 1/2 right on Carp).

We need players at every position and DL, OL and every position north and south of there. The Hawks always seem to take someone (or lots of someone's) that draft pundits assert woul be there in the latter rounds if not FA. Some of those players have been diamonds. Same w/ some UFAs we have nabbed.

As for Frank, who knows? I'll admit I don't know for sure, NOR does anyone else but Clark, the young lady and those kids. But as I have stated before - a woman lying to protect her abuser is no big surprise (paid off or not). That's why there are laws in place to make an arrest if evidence doesn't match the words spoken. The kid was in his senior season and was lit up on booze (so was I at that point, to be fair) He has been arrested twice. (I can live w/ stealing a lap-top and chalk it up to a youthful mistake.) I'm just not buying this "she fell" business. Her BAC was 0.0. Kids saw what they saw; for the most part - I believe their story. What motivation do they have to say he threw her to the ground? I do realize that things happen... She could have been crazy mad and started hitting him/throwing things at him and things escalated. Nobody knows though, not even John and Pete. And, as john said... He was in Michigan around the time of the incident and the team believed Clark did not strike the woman. Why, then, would they release him?

Again, I hope I'm wrong. I hope like hell he is a model player, leader, teammate and citizen. But if he gets arrested for a DV case, even if he is a Seahawk star, I hope John and Pete have the stones to fire him and acknowledge they effed up.

[Hawk Sista]

I also appreciate the balanced responses in this thread; nobody resorted to name calling. Someone in another discussion said "live in glass houses much?" No, not really. I'm harder on myself than most. I am flawed. I will make mistakes today. And I also realize that abusers themselves have a rough road and were oft times abused themselves (or, at a minimum, watched a lot of it first hand). My heart sincerely hurts for all involved in this pervasive cycle of pain.

Again - thanks for your understanding.

[SalmonBB]

Sista, good post.

Oly, good post as well. I agree with you. It's much less about where you take a player according to your team's needs, and much more about getting the players you need before the drop-offs occur. JS and PC have demonstrated they are pretty good at this in the past, and it seems they applied it here as well. In the later rounds, after the drop-offs, they also seemed to key in on raw talent combined with high motors ... guys who can be developed. I think this is a sound plan.

GO SEAHAWKS!!!

[Hawk Sista]

I really enjoyed the balance in your response, Salmon BB. Thank you.

[jshawaii22]

into the second page... and have we already moved on from the point of Sis's blog? Evidently so...

[Hawk Sista]

Posting this for Hawksista. I do understand your disappointment, but if helpful at all the 'hawks did a ton of checking on this guy. I hope he does not ultimately disappoint you.

http://www.mlive.com/wolverines/index.s ... estic.html

Personally I think they guy has phenomenal physical skills and was a great value where he was drafted. I agree there is a lot of smoke though. I hope the 'hawks are right.

Great Read, Folk Crusader. I'm hoping it's not just spin and lip-service. Had Greg Hardy not been scheduled for a visit in Seattle, I might be more inclined to believe what I read. Still, I did feel better after reading this. Grazie

[c_hawkbob]

Just a couple things and this is the last I'll say till new information comes out:

- We know one way or another she got this mouse under her eye:



That's not an insignificant mouse. Having done some boxing I can tell you that sure looks like the results of contact with a fist, head or elbow, a lamp is not out of the realm of possibility though.

- Roach wrote:

Unless the woman says he hit her, he admits to hitting her, or someone reliable actually saw him hit her, just don't see how people feel comfortable condemning a person.

... after claiming to have read the police report; she did say he hit her:

She advised Frank then punched her in the face and she fell back breaking the lamp.

(from the Police report text)

- But that's not all that she said; she also admits to being the aggressor:

She advised Frank and her were on the bed and began to argue. She stated she has been short tempered, she got mad, and she threw the T. V. remote at him

and to drawing first blood:

She advised Frank tried restraining her on the bed and that is when she bit his nose

I gotta say, that sh!t had to hurt! I mean tears in the eyes, immediate instinctive reaction inducing type of hurt.

- Please note that none of this changes anything that I have said, I read this as soon as it was linked. I'm just pointing out that while I lean toward believing this version of the events and believe he did in fact hit her, a balanced response is appropriate here, as a reaction to having your nose bitten hard enough to draw blood I don't know how many (drunk) men would not have had a similar reaction. A 19 year old kid can make this kind of mistake without it meaning that he's an habitual abuser. If he keeps his nose clean going forward I can see coming to eventually warm to him.

[RiverDog]

Sorry RD didn't Seattle draft Britt as their first pick last season? The Hawks generally usually use at least one, the only draft to my knowledge the did not do that was 2012 were they drafted Irvin, Wagner and Wilson.

Oh, yea, I forgot about Britt. Thanks for the reminder.

[RiverDog]

Serious question: Does anyone know what it was that Clark told the Hawks or what other information outside of the police report that the Hawks had access to that convinced them that Clark was telling them the truth when he said that he never struck his GF? The evidence contained in the police report is awfully compelling that there was a pretty bad fight between the two of them.

[Zorn76]

I would have rather gone a different route than selecting Frank Clark with our first pick.

IMO, whatever upside he has compared to other DE's chosen after him, still isn't worth the potential risk moving forward.

Beyond that, I liked what we did overall.

Draft grades are a moot point until 3 yrs from now. We'll see who's on the roster (from this class) and what they've achieved at that point.

[HumanCockroach]

Serious question: Does anyone know what it was that Clark told the Hawks or what other information outside of the police report that the Hawks had access to that convinced them that Clark was telling them the truth when he said that he never struck his GF? The evidence contained in the police report is awfully compelling that there was a pretty bad fight between the two of them.

According to what I read, Carroll and Schneider had talks with both people's counsellors ( not sure how that works though as I assume that is covered by doctor/ client privileges) , the coaches, school staff. Though I find it insane that they didn't speak to the lady...

[HumanCockroach]

My mistake Bob I read this portion of the article. "


[url][i]Hurt's view was different when a sergeant on the scene asked about the red marks on her neck, saying Clark only grabbed her shirt and she fell down to the left side of the bed[/url][/i]"

[c_hawkbob]

No worries. It's a very long document.

[NorthHawk]

Serious question: Does anyone know what it was that Clark told the Hawks or what other information outside of the police report that the Hawks had access to that convinced them that Clark was telling them the truth when he said that he never struck his GF? The evidence contained in the police report is awfully compelling that there was a pretty bad fight between the two of them.

I also read that they had their psychologist interview him (and maybe others involved with his counseling) and gave a report to the team. How much that influenced the decision, or what information was gleaned from it, I don't know.

[RiverDog]

North Hawk and Roach:

I appreciate the feedback on my question and I can see where JS might conclude that Clark wasn't a habitual abuser and that the incident he was arrested for was an isolated event, but it still doesn't explain how he could come to the conclusion that Clark did not strike the girl. What information does he have that explains or supersedes the evidence contained in the police report? And if he does have some sort of exclusive evidence, why don't they release it?

[NorthHawk]

The marks on her face could have come from a number of things.
She was biting his nose severely enough to draw blood, so a number of things could have happened.
Yes, one of them is hitting her (and it seems the likeliest of answers), but if he pushed her off of him or away from him violently, she might have struck the bedside table with her head.
It's not like there is a lot of room in motels and you can easily fall awkwardly.

I don't know about you, but I've had occasions where I've come by bruises and scrapes from weird series of events, but it looked like I might have been in a scuffle.
It happened to me the other week when I was cutting the lawn and I thought I was past the branch of the Apple tree (but wasn't). The scrape looked like I was in a fight or got road rash from falling from a bike. If the scrape was 1.5 inches higher, it would look much more like what actually happened.

I'm not here to defend him, but I do want to point out things aren't always what they seem at first look and it's dangerous to make assumptions.

[obiken]

Sorry folks, did Corrections for 26 years, a dirt bag by any other name is still a dirt bag. It doesn't matter if her nose got squished, cut, or smashed, he stole the laptop, he did this, and got kicked off the team.
We started with 11 picks, ended up with 8 and never drafted a bona fide Center to replace an all-pro. You guys say we will be ok, cool. However, this isn't Winston, who I would be surprised, not shocked to see go south, this guy is a probability screw up. Sorry, I was a college educated Liberal puke, who had no business in Corrections, I should have been a teacher. Never the less, I learned to my chagrin and sorrow, that once a cocoa puff, always a cocoa puff. Its just the way it is. I was anti-capital punishment at the U of O, now sorry, there are just some people that need to be flushed.

[burrrton]

This front office has earned the benefit of the doubt, at least to me.

Relax, and wait and see.

[jshawaii22]

RD, remember when the FO says "he didn't hit her"... they were channeling Bill Clinton's "I didn't inhale" or "I didn't have sex with that woman"...

[mykc14]

RD, remember when the FO says "he didn't hit her"... they were channeling Bill Clinton's "I didn't inhale" or "I didn't have sex with that woman"...

Wasn't it 'W' who didn't inhale?

[jshawaii22]

No, it was Billie Boy. Republicans don't smoke!

js

[NorthHawk]

It seems the Seahawks didn't do as good an investigation as we had hoped.

http://www.seattletimes.com/sports/seah ... raft-pick/

[obiken]

Gore Vidal, who I hated, said that the best four words in the English language, are I told you so.
In spite of all that, is there any of you that would say that with 11 picks going into the draft, we would end up with just 2 draftees on the OL?? We give up draft picks to move up and pick Lockett, why?? You take Lockett in the 2nd, come back and get Clark. NO site had Clark off the board before the 4 round, some had him as un-drafted. I am also getting tired of people giving PC the benefit of the doubt. He has hit on late round Defenders but he has busted on FA, and Offensive players. The shine is coming off. Whitehurst, Flynn, and Harvin, to name a few. I not flipped out about it but I think we should demand better.

[HumanCockroach]

Yep, in fact, a couple of us did in fact say 3 , not 2 would be the choice.

[mykc14]

Gore Vidal, who I hated, said that the best four words in the English language, are I told you so.
In spite of all that, is there any of you that would say that with 11 picks going into the draft, we would end up with just 2 draftees on the OL?? We give up draft picks to move up and pick Lockett, why?? You take Lockett in the 2nd, come back and get Clark. NO site had Clark off the board before the 4 round, some had him as un-drafted. I am also getting tired of people giving PC the benefit of the doubt. He has hit on late round Defenders but he has busted on FA, and Offensive players. The shine is coming off. Whitehurst, Flynn, and Harvin, to name a few. I not flipped out about it but I think we should demand better.

Come on Obi your better than that. How many Front Offices use mock drafts as their own draft boards? We have no idea when he was going to get drafted. To simply assume that he would be there later is not good business. Imagine if they would have done that with RW. Sometimes I want to believe that you are an objective albeit slightly cynical fan but with posts like this you clearly have an agenda. Combine that with your ' 2 draftees on the OL' comment and it's pretty clear you aren't objective at all. You do enough research to know they did not just draft 2 guys to play the OL.

[mykc14]

It seems the Seahawks didn't do as good an investigation as we had hoped.

http://www.seattletimes.com/sports/seah ... raft-pick/

I don't know that the account in this article from those 'witnesses' (I use that term loosely because they did not witness the altercation at all) does much to add to the case, I mean the cops didn't even contact them again during the investigation. I don't think anybody denies that somehow she got hurt in that hotel room and Clark had something to do with it. The question is did he hit her in the face, throw her against the wall, pick her up by the throat, etc or did he physically restrain her and 'defend' himself causing that injury to occur. IMO nothing that these two saw answers that aspect of the case so there isn't much of a need to interview them. Again, I am not saying that he didn't do something terribly wrong I am just saying that these 'witnesses' do nothing to shed light on how she got those injuries.

[NorthHawk]

Gore Vidal, who I hated, said that the best four words in the English language, are I told you so.
In spite of all that, is there any of you that would say that with 11 picks going into the draft, we would end up with just 2 draftees on the OL?? We give up draft picks to move up and pick Lockett, why?? You take Lockett in the 2nd, come back and get Clark. NO site had Clark off the board before the 4 round, some had him as un-drafted. I am also getting tired of people giving PC the benefit of the doubt. He has hit on late round Defenders but he has busted on FA, and Offensive players. The shine is coming off. Whitehurst, Flynn, and Harvin, to name a few. I not flipped out about it but I think we should demand better.

I said in one thread that I guessed 3, but expected 2. I didn't think in this draft deep in OL they would massage their egos again and try to change a DL into OL.
As a general statement, I'm getting concerned that they are starting to believe the press clippings and that their choices are largely infallible.
It's that kind of attitude that would make you call a play where you use a 2nd string WR (whose talents and experience limit him to speed routes on the outside) for a play that calls for an inside route into a congested Defense at the goal line in the most important game of the year. That arrogance eventually catches up to you.
Maybe with this draft if more information on Clark continues to trickle in, it has.

[obiken]

I don't want people to think I am bummed like in the Pre-Carroll era, I am not. However, Clark is a typical PC pick. IF you look at USC 10 of them were jerks who could play FB. My thinking was you use the shotgun effect on getting OL. You take 4 or 5 guys and end up with 2.
I just agree now with Chuck Powell on KJR in Seattle, that JS, and PC just don't look at the OL as a priority. That is going to come back to bite us.

obiken

[HumanCockroach]

No, it was Billie Boy. Republicans don't smoke!

js

Yep, they snort coke instead...

[NorthHawk]

I don't want people to think I am bummed like in the Pre-Carroll era, I am not. However, Clark is a typical PC pick. IF you look at USC 10 of them were jerks who could play FB. My thinking was you use the shotgun effect on getting OL. You take 4 or 5 guys and end up with 2.
I just agree now with Chuck Powell on KJR in Seattle, that JS, and PC just don't look at the OL as a priority. That is going to come back to bite us.

obiken

I said in another thread that the Offense was just along for the ride. I'm sticking to that.
We have a Defensive HC, so it's natural. In Holmy's era, the Defense was secondary and basically along for the ride.
Whatever side is carrying the team, the other is riding, but the goal should be more balance and with both sides it all starts with the Line of Scrimmage and who controls it.