Possible Divisional Relalignment for Hawks?

[Futureite]

Same old Future? Haha ok. By any objective measure your QB struggles big time in the last 2 games and you guys are STILL harping on Kap for actually working in the offseason. The guy who won the SB spends hours/day in the offseason working on his mechanics to this day, but Russel "doesn't need to" or is "miles ahead" and Kap is a failure for doing the same thing. Same old Hawks fans!

I've said many times I think Wilson is a good QB in the 10-12 range but not a polished pocket passer. You bring up SB numbers, well here is one for you: He didn't complete a single freaking pass until about 4 min left in the 2nd QTR and he threw a pick on his last one. He's a solid QB whose game is built primarily on buying time, and he sure as hell does need a LOT of work in the pocket.

Last yr Kap was aweful and unwatchable right? And yet these two QBS were separated by 1 TD pass, a couple picks and less than 100 yds. A 95 QB rating and an 86 QB rating. To hear you guys talk though you'd think we were comparing Jim Druckenmiller to Peyton Manning.

Remember 2011, when all your fans and radio guys said "Ya the 49ers are 13-3 and we are 7-9, but is there REALLY that big of a difference between them? Is Alex Smith REALLY that much better than Tarvaris Jackson?" I remember all of this on your radio up there after our game.

Well, SF radio could say the exact same thing after last yr's game. We took you the distance in your house with a team full of backups. I seem to remember Wilson ending the half with a pick. We were separated by 1 game at that point. Things can change in a hurry - as 2012 proved - and 2015 might be the same.

[mykc14]

By any objective measure your QB struggles big time in the last 2 games

The guy who won the SB spends hours/day in the offseason working on his mechanics to this day, but Russel "doesn't need to" or is "miles ahead"

Really 'any objective measure.' Ok, so the SB was one of the past 2 games he played, right? His Quarter back rating that game: 110 OBJECTIVE MEASURE (that was actually the 22nd highest quarterback rating EVER in a SB, and thats out of 108 qualifying QB performances, far from struggling. As a side note he also has the 10th highest ever quarterback rating as well). His Total QBR stat that game 90 OBJECTIVE MEASURE (2nd best QBR in a SB since 2008, which is as far back as ESPN goes with its QBR). So what were you saying? Those are two big objective measures which PROVE he didn't struggle. YOU ARE WRONG.

What the Hell are you talking about with that second bolded comment? Who says RW doesn't need to work on his mechanics or spend hours a day working on his craft?There is not one Hawk fan who would say he doesn't need to do that, come on, what utter crap. At the same time we all know he IS working on his craft everyday and it isn't a worry for us. His work ethic has never been questioned by anybody but you, so yeah same old future, LOL.

[RiverDog]

Same old Future? Haha ok. By any objective measure your QB struggles big time in the last 2 games and you guys are STILL harping on Kap for actually working in the offseason. The guy who won the SB spends hours/day in the offseason working on his mechanics to this day, but Russel "doesn't need to" or is "miles ahead" and Kap is a failure for doing the same thing. Same old Hawks fans!

I've said many times I think Wilson is a good QB in the 10-12 range but not a polished pocket passer. You bring up SB numbers, well here is one for you: He didn't complete a single freaking pass until about 4 min left in the 2nd QTR and he threw a pick on his last one. He's a solid QB whose game is built primarily on buying time, and he sure as hell does need a LOT of work in the pocket.

Last yr Kap was aweful and unwatchable right? And yet these two QBS were separated by 1 TD pass, a couple picks and less than 100 yds. A 95 QB rating and an 86 QB rating. To hear you guys talk though you'd think we were comparing Jim Druckenmiller to Peyton Manning.

Remember 2011, when all your fans and radio guys said "Ya the 49ers are 13-3 and we are 7-9, but is there REALLY that big of a difference between them? Is Alex Smith REALLY that much better than Tarvaris Jackson?" I remember all of this on your radio up there after our game.

Well, SF radio could say the exact same thing after last yr's game. We took you the distance in your house with a team full of backups. I seem to remember Wilson ending the half with a pick. We were separated by 1 game at that point. Things can change in a hurry - as 2012 proved - and 2015 might be the same.

Futureite, you really have a blind spot when it comes to Russell Wilson. I have not heard one single person or talking head since the end of SB 49 that criticized his performance outside the interception on that fateful last play. Had he completed that one pass, he would have won the SB MVP and would have been standing almost alone in the entire sporting world as having won two consecutive SB's, with the last one that would have featured one of the top 3 or 4 greatest SB comebacks. No one has mentioned his slow start at the beginning of the game and used it as evidence of a sub par performance, you're the only one I've heard using that as a basis of your argument. If he was the type of quarterback you have described, we wouldn't be having as much trouble re-signing him as we are. With the possible exception of Andrew Luck, he is the most desired player in the league of those under 30 years of age.

[Futureite]

River;

I acknowledge that RW is a good QB. I've never claimed he was subpar or overly deficient in any one area. What I have done is analyze the Genesis of his numbers.

I say objectively that QB struggles when he goes 12-12 (or whatever it was), goes nearly a full half before completing a pass and ends the game wirh a pick. Yes, I agree he made some plays inbetween, but again they were big splash plays on deep throws to boost his rating. Of course that matters and it counts and all of that, and it's also one of the things I stated he consistently does well (deep throws/playaction, scramble + splash plays), but when your team needed him to string together some first downs with the game nearly in hand he could not do it. This is why he is a 10-12 range QB *right now* (I said he could be better if pusged/coached to be) and not the HOF product you guys have insinuated he is.

This is no different than me pointing to the Hou Texan game Kap played in 2013, where he completed a long TD pass to VD which boosted his rating over 90. Overall he was 7-16 and he struggled.

The only reason I bring this up again is the lopsided supposed disparity Hawk fans always point to between Kap and RW. Honestly, if I AM RW I'd do the same thing Kap did. I'd be sick with my final 2 games and I'd want to improve my pocket skills. I've said many times that the Seahawks run a simplified pass which still emphasises Read Option, and I've heard everyone from Greg Cosell to Trent Diller state this. Nonetheless, it seems like you guys always return to the same premise; That you have an elite, pro style QB and we have a dumb, "running" QB that will never catch on.

I just learned last week that RW played a FULL 4 yrs in college, all in pro style Os. Well, it's no wonder he was more advanced in some respects than Kap, who played in a pistol O. There's no possible way anyone could spin Kap's offseason as a bad thing anywhere, except here lol!

[Futureite]

Also, if we are going on the rings argument, I've stated many times here that if Kap had RW's D in 2012 he has a ring. How many times in response to that did I read "no, if you had RW you'd have converted from the 5". Last yr's SB proved that was not true, and the GB Champion chip game also proves beyond a shadow of doubt that my statement about the D + ring is true.

All of this goes back to the original claim on this thread; That we are a 5 or 6 win team who cannot compete for the div, especially given the QB talent disparity. In reality things are MUCH closer across the board than many people are painting them out to be. If things shake out just a little differently than they did ladt yr, the entire outcome could change.

[kalibane]

Future stop. Are you kidding me with this?

You lost 40% of your offensive line. Aaron Boone was bad last year and you're just hoping on him to return to form. The biggest addition you made to address that was signing a swing lineman from Buffalo who had one of the worst lines in the league.

You lost the best inside LB of this generation and his backup and are counting on Navarro Bowman bouncing back to full form after a major knee injury. Ordinarily I would give him the benefit of the doubt considering modern medicine but he's had all kinds of trouble making it back from that injury so we don't know if he'll ever be the same. Oh and as a cherry on top Aaron Brooks looks like he's just done.

You lost the key member of your defensive line, the guy who occupies two blockers so Aldon Smith can run free to the QB, (something I'll remind you he didn't do so great at when Smith hurt his triceps) and you replaced him with a 34 year old Darnell Dockett coming off an ACL injury who hasn't ever played the same role that Smith plays (Calais Campbell did that for the Cards) and you expect things to get better? I'm sure there is no reason the Cardinals released Dockett as soon as he could pass a physical. Not to mention Aldon Smith is your only pass rusher now because you even lost Dan Skuta.

You lost your two starting Corners (one of the least compelling corner tandems in the league last year) and you think the guys who couldn't beat them out will be an upgrade. Now don't get me wrong Brock could very well be an upgrade. He's shown flashes but Ward was flat out AWFUL and is closer to being a bust than a dependable starting level corner.

Oh yeah and you lost one of the top 3-5 coaches in the NFL and both coordinators, replacing him with a D-Line coach, a hire that almost feels like a nepotism hire in that he just has a good relationship with the organization but doesn't even have coordinator experience. (Please don't come back citing his 1 game interim head coaching stint).

Your roster is really thin right now and you are counting on a lot of question marks. I guess we can never say never considering what the Cowboys did last year but the difference was the Cowboys Offense was never in question. They had the best OLine, a top 3 WR, a Top 5 (when healthy) RB and a top 10 QB and we knew that coming into the season. The Niners have none of these things.

P.S. Niner Fans and Pete Prisco are the only ones who are even bothering to compare Kaep to Wilson right now. Most people are putting Wilson near or in the top 5 QBs. When your only company is Pete Prisco you probably have some soul searching to do.

[NorthHawk]

To be fair, teams can win with poor Offensive lines if they have a QB and RB that can make up for them.

It sure looks on Defense like there will be some challenges for them, but this is all on paper and we shouldn't count them out before seeing what type of product they are going to field.
After all, it's the NFL where the difference between winning and losing is very slim.

[RiverDog]

River;

I acknowledge that RW is a good QB. I've never claimed he was subpar or overly deficient in any one area. What I have done is analyze the Genesis of his numbers.

I say objectively that QB struggles when he goes 12-12 (or whatever it was), goes nearly a full half before completing a pass and ends the game wirh a pick. Yes, I agree he made some plays inbetween, but again they were big splash plays on deep throws to boost his rating. Of course that matters and it counts and all of that, and it's also one of the things I stated he consistently does well (deep throws/playaction, scramble + splash plays), but when your team needed him to string together some first downs with the game nearly in hand he could not do it. This is why he is a 10-12 range QB *right now* (I said he could be better if pusged/coached to be) and not the HOF product you guys have insinuated he is.

This is no different than me pointing to the Hou Texan game Kap played in 2013, where he completed a long TD pass to VD which boosted his rating over 90. Overall he was 7-16 and he struggled.

The only reason I bring this up again is the lopsided supposed disparity Hawk fans always point to between Kap and RW. Honestly, if I AM RW I'd do the same thing Kap did. I'd be sick with my final 2 games and I'd want to improve my pocket skills. I've said many times that the Seahawks run a simplified pass which still emphasises Read Option, and I've heard everyone from Greg Cosell to Trent Diller state this. Nonetheless, it seems like you guys always return to the same premise; That you have an elite, pro style QB and we have a dumb, "running" QB that will never catch on.

I just learned last week that RW played a FULL 4 yrs in college, all in pro style Os. Well, it's no wonder he was more advanced in some respects than Kap, who played in a pistol O. There's no possible way anyone could spin Kap's offseason as a bad thing anywhere, except here lol!

Come on, Future. You're cherry picking. Ruling out the big plays that boosted RW's rating is as bad as me saying we should give him a pass on the last interception that drove it down. Wilson had a solid game, helped us to a two score lead heading into the 4th quarter. Our defense lost that game. Our secondary was a hospital ward out there, and Brady took full advantage of it, targeting our backups that were forced into duty. Wilson and the offense did their jobs, with the lone exception being that last play.

Yes, Wilson did play a full 4 years in college in a pro style offense, and that's a big reason why he was able to step right in and start in the NFL. But what you failed to mention is that he transferred in his senior season and was able to learn a new offense within 3 weeks time and lead his new team to a conference championship, and during the course of the season, led all of FBS in QB rating. If he were 4" taller, he would have been a #1 overall. His lack of height was the ONLY thing that drove down his draft stock.

So please, get off of Russell Wilson. It ain't gonna fly, not in here.

[burrrton]

So please, get off of Russell Wilson. It ain't gonna fly, not in here.

It might fly with Prisco, though- kindred spirit for you, Future!

Seriously, though- there are a number of things you can attack on this team (not as many as some years, but still)- RW isn't one of them.

Future's hard-on trying to bag on RW says tons about where Future's head is and nothing about RW.

Futureite: mind-fcked by the Seattle Seahawks for 3 years.

[Hawktown]

It might fly with Prisco, though- kindred spirit for you, Future!

Seriously, though- there are a number of things you can attack on this team (not as many as some years, but still)- RW isn't one of them.

Future's hard-on trying to bag on RW says tons about where Future's head is and nothing about RW.

Futureite: mind-fcked by the Seattle Seahawks for 3 years.[/quote]

lol

there is a reason i have this idiot on mute!!!!! Out of all the trolls on the internet, this guy is top 5 in idiots amongst them trolls. I guess it makes him feel good to be top 5 in something!!!

[RiverDog]

...but 5-9? OK dude. We will in fact see. Would surprise me none if we (49'ers) won the Div.

You're about the only one it would surprise. The 49'ers consistently graded out as having one of if not the worst offseason in the league. From ESPN: "Sando, with the help of ESPN analysts Bill Polian, Louis Riddick, Matt Williamson and Field Yates, gave the 49ers a D-plus for their offseason."

http://espn.go.com/blog/san-francisco-4 ... ade-in-nfl

From SB Nation: "Did the 49ers actually have the worst offseason? The short version: Yes."

http://www.sbnation.com/nfl/2015/5/21/8 ... draft-espn

Bleacher Report ask the question "Are the 49'ers experiencing the worst offseason in NFL history?" and goes on to say "Do you remember when the 49ers were good?
Keep those memories because after what is maybe the worst offseason any team has ever had, the 49ers are looking 3-13 squarely in the face."

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2399 ... fl-history

Walter Football said of the Niners offseason: "The 49ers have had a disastrous offseason, losing players left and right because of free agency and retirement. They have so many holes on their roster that they basically have to select the best player available at every juncture."

http://walterfootball.com/offseason2015sf.php

Those opinions are scattered all over the place. It's not just us 12's that aren't giving the Niners much respect. JS's 5 win forecast is about par and shouldn't be laughed at. It's the reality that you're denying. It's stating the obvious to say that anything can and does happen, but almost any unbiased and informed football person is saying that things do not look good for the Niners in 2015.

[Futureite]

Future stop. Are you kidding me with this?

You lost 40% of your offensive line. Aaron Boone was bad last year and you're just hoping on him to return to form. The biggest addition you made to address that was signing a swing lineman from Buffalo who had one of the worst lines in the league.

You lost the best inside LB of this generation and his backup and are counting on Navarro Bowman bouncing back to full form after a major knee injury. Ordinarily I would give him the benefit of the doubt considering modern medicine but he's had all kinds of trouble making it back from that injury so we don't know if he'll ever be the same. Oh and as a cherry on top Aaron Brooks looks like he's just done.

You lost the key member of your defensive line, the guy who occupies two blockers so Aldon Smith can run free to the QB, (something I'll remind you he didn't do so great at when Smith hurt his triceps) and you replaced him with a 34 year old Darnell Dockett coming off an ACL injury who hasn't ever played the same role that Smith plays (Calais Campbell did that for the Cards) and you expect things to get better? I'm sure there is no reason the Cardinals released Dockett as soon as he could pass a physical. Not to mention Aldon Smith is your only pass rusher now because you even lost Dan Skuta.

You lost your two starting Corners (one of the least compelling corner tandems in the league last year) and you think the guys who couldn't beat them out will be an upgrade. Now don't get me wrong Brock could very well be an upgrade. He's shown flashes but Ward was flat out AWFUL and is closer to being a bust than a dependable starting level corner.

Oh yeah and you lost one of the top 3-5 coaches in the NFL and both coordinators, replacing him with a D-Line coach, a hire that almost feels like a nepotism hire in that he just has a good relationship with the organization but doesn't even have coordinator experience. (Please don't come back citing his 1 game interim head coaching stint).

Your roster is really thin right now and you are counting on a lot of question marks. I guess we can never say never considering what the Cowboys did last year but the difference was the Cowboys Offense was never in question. They had the best OLine, a top 3 WR, a Top 5 (when healthy) RB and a top 10 QB and we knew that coming into the season. The Niners have none of these things.

P.S. Niner Fans and Pete Prisco are the only ones who are even bothering to compare Kaep to Wilson right now. Most people are putting Wilson near or in the top 5 QBs. When your only company is Pete Prisco you probably have some soul searching to do.

If you listed last yr's starting D (which is tough due to constant fluctuation in lineup) it's really not substantially different in key areas. I would argue that it may in fact be better with our 2 starting interior linemen back and Aldon Smith in for a full season. The Secondary had in fact lost Cox and Culliver, but has retained Reid, Bethea, Brock (3'4's of the starters) and Johnson, who saw significant time and was drafted yo start. You seem to forget, when we played the Hawks we rolled out Boreland (who played 1/2 of the game) and Wilhoite at ILB, Lynch and Brooks at OLB, Dial at Dtackle. Our D looked just fine to me. It's still extremely talented and may be better than last yr's.

Here is our projected starting Oline:

Kilgore (started last yr) - C
Brandon Thomas - T
Staley (started lat yr) -T
Marcus Martin - G
Alex Boone - G

There's 3 returning starters, 2 probowlers and 2 highly rated prospects out of college! To hear you talk, we're just eff'd though. I think it's ridiculous talk, but I guess I understand it. We lost a lot.

Again, we gained a lot. Bowman is tearing it up per reports.Aldon is back. Dorsey is back. Ian Williams is back. Tory Smith came aboard. We have a ton of talent. Easily enough to compete for this division!

Hawks are the favorite, obviously. I am still excited to see what happens.

[Futureite]

River;

He is a very good QB for sure. If I were cherry picking, I'd have used those examples to suggest he's below average. Instead, I used them to justify why he's around #10 in the league. I believe it's well acknowledged by this point that the Hawks run a simplified pass O built on playaction, and they are a run first team. That is not going to turn him into an elite QB, even if he posts a perfect QB rating all season.

Any QB who's ever turned into a prolific passer (and a great QB) has had (1) the right system, and (2) the opportunity to fail and learn by doing (Montana, Marino, Brees etc). Russell is not going to get either in Seattle. As soon as he struggles, Carroll pulls the plug on the pass, rides Lynch and calls read option plays. He could be a great QB, but I do not see how that happens without some outside stimuli forcing him to adapt.

A lot of criticism has been heaped at Kap. He was given the keys at the beginning of 2013 and for stretches of last yr to run a total pass first O. He proved he could not handle it. But, it's forced him to adapt. He was far better at many things in 2014 than 2013, and this yr he's worked judiciously to improve on his flaws from last yr. That IS the only way any athlete or professional of any sort gets better; failure/learning/adapting. So all of these criticisms of Kap and exhaulting of Wilson (though probably warranted) are fine by me.

It wasn't long ago that I thought the Hawks would never catch the Niners. You sleep in life, a wolf is always waiting to raid the chicken coop. Same holds true here. I hope that baseball playing did your QB good!

[jshawaii22]

Any QB who's ever turned into a prolific passer has had (1) the right system, and (2) the opportunity to fail and learn by doing (Montana, Marino, Brees etc). Russell is not going to get either in Seattle. As soon as he struggles, Carroll pulls the plug on the pass, rides Lynch and calls read option plays. He could be a great QB, but I do not see how that happens without some outside stimuli forcing him to adapt.

Future, it's the opposite with Russell. You need to go look at why he has MORE 4th qtr comebacks then almost anyone. I saw what we had with this kid in the Atlanta playoff game, and then multiple comebacks, like with Green Bay. Are you telling me that Russell didn't bring the Hawks back? Maybe you think it was TJack? It's when the Bevil typical offense gets into quicksand... they give it to Russell, he does what Russell does and he wins games.

This is also because the coaches have a great ability to make 1/2 time changes in both O & D, and that is also what has separated the Seahawks from most teams since Pete came in. We fall behind alot. The D and Russell brings us back. No shame in giving the D the credit, too. But without Russell, we just wouldn't be where we are.

Can't say any of that about Kap right now, can you, Future? Most people now look at trading away Alex as a mistake. I'll now give you Six wins, your arguments pushed me up a win for the 9er's this coming year.

[Futureite]

OK, you got me. He arrived to the NFL as a fully polished top 5 NFL QB, capable of either throwing for 5,000 yds in and 35 tds in a season or grinding it out with read option and playing small ball. He does whatever is necessary, just depending on the circumstances.

Satisfied?

[RiverDog]

OK, you got me. He arrived to the NFL as a fully polished top 5 NFL QB, capable of either throwing for 5,000 yds in and 35 tds in a season or grinding it out with read option and playing small ball. He does whatever is necessary, just depending on the circumstances.

Satisfied?

I know you meant that as sarcasm, but it isn't a long ways off from the truth. Russell did have a very shallow learning curve, and part of that was his college experience. As you noted, he's been in pro style offenses vs. the pistol that Kaepernick played in at Nevada. But the other reason why his learning curve was so shallow is that he works as hard off the field at perfecting his game as anyone I've ever seen. I posted a link from my local, home town newspaper of the lady that hosted him during his minor league baseball stint here where I live that commented about his study habits, how she'd get up at 3:00 am and find Russell in the living room reading a playbook. That's why he was able to start as a rookie.

We don't really know if Russell can throw for 5,000 yards and 35 TD's because he's never been asked to do it. Aaron Rodgers and Peyton Manning wouldn't be asked to pass for those kind of numbers if they were playing for this team. If you're ahead by two touchdowns with this defense behind you, you work the clock.

I think most of the regular posters, both here and at the former PI forum,would attest that I've been as tough on Russell as anyone, or at least any Hawk fan, and even I would rate him within the top 5. Top 10 is a bit of an insult. You go down to top 10 and you're getting into Romo territory.

[Futureite]

River;

I am not even saying he could not. It's just my belief that a person must be exposed to a certain type of challenge to reach an elite level of anything. True, Wilson may have arrived with that talent. But to be honest, even most HOF QBs cannot boast that. Look at Montana's first couple seasons. Look at Brees, who struggled for multiple yrs before getting it. They only became who they were through coaching, exposure and failure. Maybe this is just a difference of opinion.

RW is obviously a good QB. You should Google Eric Weddle's pre-SB comments about RW though. They alnost mirror mine. I'd post them, but if I did someone just going to say I am an looking for something to support my own agenda. Obviously, as a Div rival I do not like him. Regardles, I believe my ranking is pretty fair and balanced at this point. It's still fairly high and I've never suggested he (or any person) could "not" reach a certain level. I've only said he's not been put in the environment to grow into that type of a player, and ge's not there yet.

[NorthHawk]

Something you have to keep in mind with Wilson is he only had a good Defense behind him, he did not and does not have a good Offense in front of him.
It has only been him and Lynch whereas Manning, Brees, Montana, and others had good or great WRs as well as Offenses that that wanted to score a lot of points even when they didn't have to. Montana had one of the best Defenses in the league in his years - and he had a lot of good talent on Offense around him, too. Manning and Brees have also been surrounded by some elite talent on Offense as well.

[Futureite]

Something you have to keep in mind with Wilson is he only had a good Defense behind him, he did not and does not have a good Offense in front of him.
It has only been him and Lynch whereas Manning, Brees, Montana, and others had good or great WRs as well as Offenses that that wanted to score a lot of points even when they didn't have to. Montana had one of the best Defenses in the league in his years - and he had a lot of good talent on Offense around him, too. Manning and Brees have also been surrounded by some elite talent on Offense as well.

Montana did not have any outstanding talent to begin his career. Freddie Solomon, Dwight Clark and Renaldo Neimiah may have had 2 1,000 yd seasons total between the 3 of them over their entire careers.

Brees did get some talent later in his career, but his success has been due primarily to his own development and his systen. A couple of his more successful WRS have produced nothing after leaving the Saints. We'll see how Graham does this yr to gauge how good he truly is.

Neither of those guys have had an run game behind them like Lynch (or remotely close) and though I agree the 49ers had some very good Ds, they never had a #1 across the board turnover creating red zone thwarting machine like the Seahawks have had. I mean cmon, look at the NFC Champ game. That game was won almost entirely by your D and Marshawn Lynch, not to mention even a TD pass by the punter! Honestly, the NFL may never have seen a team that gets this much contribution from so many facets. I cannot remember any of the afore mentioned QBs getting any of that.

[NorthHawk]

Montana had a great Offensive HC. Wilson has never had that.
Brees only played a couple of years in SD, but he had some better talent on Offense than Wilson does now. When he went to NO, he got hooked up with one of todays best Offensive Head Coach in Payton.
It's a lot different with an Offensive HC than a Defensive HC. We saw it here with Holmgren.

The Seattle run game? Take away most of Wilson's 850 yards rushing last year and most of the yardage after Lynch broke his league leading 130 tackles and there isn't much of a run game here. Wilson runs because he has to, but he is always looking down field until he reaches the LoS. That's a talent a lot of QBs that are labeled "Running QBs" don't possess.
All this team has had on Offense until now is Wilson and Lynch, so he's done a pretty remarkable job at a young age.

[RiverDog]

River;

I am not even saying he could not. It's just my belief that a person must be exposed to a certain type of challenge to reach an elite level of anything. True, Wilson may have arrived with that talent. But to be honest, even most HOF QBs cannot boast that. Look at Montana's first couple seasons. Look at Brees, who struggled for multiple yrs before getting it. They only became who they were through coaching, exposure and failure. Maybe this is just a difference of opinion.

RW is obviously a good QB. You should Google Eric Weddle's pre-SB comments about RW though. They alnost mirror mine. I'd post them, but if I did someone just going to say I am an looking for something to support my own agenda. Obviously, as a Div rival I do not like him. Regardles, I believe my ranking is pretty fair and balanced at this point. It's still fairly high and I've never suggested he (or any person) could "not" reach a certain level. I've only said he's not been put in the environment to grow into that type of a player, and ge's not there yet.

You're damn right you'd get pounced on if you posted Weddle's comments in here, and rightfully so. There are scores of opinions about Russell Wilson that one can document, the vast majority of which are extremely complimentary and support opinions such as my own. If you posted Weddle's, you'd be guilty of cherry picking as you so often times are.

IMO Aaron Rodgers is the top QB in the league. He's the only one of the active quarterbacks that I would call 'elite' at this point in their respective careers, including Russell. But from there, the rankings become a lot more contentious and I can understand some differences of opinion to a certain point. But there's no way RW is simply the 10th best QB. Top 6 or 7, maybe, but even that is really stretching it. I challenge you to name 9 other quarterbacks that are better.

If you accept that challenge, you'd better take a healthy dose of anti venom before you hit the submit button.

[HumanCockroach]

Wait, so the deal is Wilson has been too good too fast, so he is not that good?

Makes perfect sense. LMFAO.

[Futureite]

River;

If you consider his running too, then yes - I'd put him in the top 10. But there's no way in hell he's a better pure passer than Romo, Brady, Brees, Manning, Rodgers, Ryan, Flaaco, Luck, etc. I understand you guys feel differently, but the facts don't bear it out.

I've read too many recounts of Seattle's pass O as very "basic" to believe it's just my opinion. For Christ sake Wilson ran for what, over 900 yds last yr? You guys pin that on the Oline, but guys like Romo, Manning, Rodgers etc have all played under crap Olines at some point in their career and each guy still put up big numbers. The reason is that they are just better at finding the open man and dealing from the pocket. Russell is better at running, and that's evidenced by his rushing stats. That's what he does under pressure, period.

I listen to Steve Young here on KNBR radio all the time, and he says he never developed into a pocket passer until he forced himself to stop running. It's just not possible to be a read option QB AND and elite passer. You're either one or the other. You only get good at one of those skills by practicing it and repeating it during games, and Russell/Carroll's go to is to let him run.

You claim I cherry pick. I think you guys cherry pick on the other side. Yes, he's had a couple big games. He's also had a mounting number of really bad games where he barely cracked 100 yds passing or ended a game with a pick on the final drive. That's what happens when you're a big play athletic QB. The playground stuff will make you look amazing some games - unstoppable even - and then you'll have games when you disappear entirely.

This argument of "doing what he had to do" is to total bullshit. Any other D and Wilson gets blown out V the Pack, and you know it. He wouldn't beat the Saints in the playoffs throwing for 100 yds with any other team. It's a cop out to always claim he "could if he had to" and then downplay QBs that consistently produce or throw 4 TDs in a playoff game like Flaaco, only to lose. Tony Romo would have a ring in Seattle and again, you know it. Look what he did in your stadium last yr.

Again, Wilson is a good QB. But when was the last time you heard "Russell Wilson is picking apart this D" or "look at Russell Wilson hang in the pocket, that was his 3rd read". Without exagerating, I'm not sure I've EVER heard either from any announcer. You hear it on a regular basis with all of the names I listed above.

[burrrton]

I understand you guys feel differently, but the facts don't bear it out.

*sigh* Jeezus tapdancing Krist, Futureite- going back and forth with you on this is like debating a brick wall.

How many more times would you like the analyses and stats posted for you showing RW is an *excellent* 'pure passer' when he has to be?

Seriously- give us that number so we can post them enough times for you that you'll read and internalize them instead of periodically looping back to this stupidity.

[RiverDog]

River;

If you consider his running too, then yes - I'd put him in the top 10. But there's no way in hell he's a better pure passer than Romo, Brady, Brees, Manning, Rodgers, Ryan, Flaaco, Luck, etc. I understand you guys feel differently, but the facts don't bear it out.

I've read too many recounts of Seattle's pass O as very "basic" to believe it's just my opinion. For Christ sake Wilson ran for what, over 900 yds last yr? You guys pin that on the Oline, but guys like Romo, Manning, Rodgers etc have all played under crap Olines at some point in their career and each guy still put up big numbers. The reason is that they are just better at finding the open man and dealing from the pocket. Russell is better at running, and that's evidenced by his rushing stats. That's what he does under pressure, period.

I listen to Steve Young here on KNBR radio all the time, and he says he never developed into a pocket passer until he forced himself to stop running. It's just not possible to be a read option QB AND and elite passer. You're either one or the other. You only get good at one of those skills by practicing it and repeating it during games, and Russell/Carroll's go to is to let him run.

You claim I cherry pick. I think you guys cherry pick on the other side. Yes, he's had a couple big games. He's also had a mounting number of really bad games where he barely cracked 100 yds passing or ended a game with a pick on the final drive. That's what happens when you're a big play athletic QB. The playground stuff will make you look amazing some games - unstoppable even - and then you'll have games when you disappear entirely.

This argument of "doing what he had to do" is to total bullshit. Any other D and Wilson gets blown out V the Pack, and you know it. He wouldn't beat the Saints in the playoffs throwing for 100 yds with any other team. It's a cop out to always claim he "could if he had to" and then downplay QBs that consistently produce or throw 4 TDs in a playoff game like Flaaco, only to lose. Tony Romo would have a ring in Seattle and again, you know it. Look what he did in your stadium last yr.

Again, Wilson is a good QB. But when was the last time you heard "Russell Wilson is picking apart this D" or "look at DezRussell Wilson hang in the pocket, that was his 3rd read". Without exagerating, I'm not sure I've EVER heard either from any announcer. You hear it on a regular basis with all of the names I listed above.

Of course, running ability factors into ranking a quarterback. It's an attribute of a quarterback's overall effectiveness just like hitting a deep ball or maintaining a high completion percentage.

Russell Wilson IS a very good pocket passing quarterback. The only thing I would say to qualify that opinion is that he hasn't sustained it or carried a team like the others you mentioned have, but only because he has never been asked to do that over the course of a season. Like all quarterbacks, he's going to get shut down from time to time.

No way would Tony Romo have a ring in Seattle. I've seen him throw too many picks when under pressure, and our OL is as leaky as a sieve. Romo had the benefit of a great OL and one of the top 5 WR's in the game in Dez Bryant. Before that, he was one of the biggest choke artist the game has ever seen. Romo would not be able to supplement our offense of the 800+ rushing yards that Wilson did, not with our receiving corps and OL. The only active QB that could possibly win a ring in Seattle would be Aaron Rodgers, and even that's doubtful.

Russell Wilson has a unique skill set, unparalleled by any other quarterback I've watched in my well over 50 years of being a football fan. He's not Steve Young or Fran Tarkenton. Those guys never ran the read option.

[HumanCockroach]

He's also had a mounting number of really bad games where he barely cracked 100 yds passing or ended a game with a pick on the final drive. That's what happens when you're a big play athletic QB

Or, just a QB period, not a SINGLE QB in the history of the league can claim otherwise, certainly none you have listed as "examples". The thing that MADE QB's like Montana and Young legends, is the very SAME attribute you are claiming makes Wilson NOT in that class. F-ing ridiculous, stupid and sad.

[NorthHawk]

"Again, Wilson is a good QB. But when was the last time you heard "Russell Wilson is picking apart this D" or "look at Russell Wilson hang in the pocket, that was his 3rd read". Without exagerating, I'm not sure I've EVER heard either from any announcer. You hear it on a regular basis with all of the names I listed above"

We heard announcers talking about him progressing through his reads the very first year and have continued to do so.
The problem is we have a Matador Pass Blocking scheme that doesn't permit any QB consistent time. He does, however still go through his reads while on the run, and most QBs don't develop that until later than their 2nd year, if at all.

[RiverDog]

"Again, Wilson is a good QB. But when was the last time you heard "Russell Wilson is picking apart this D" or "look at Russell Wilson hang in the pocket, that was his 3rd read". Without exagerating, I'm not sure I've EVER heard either from any announcer. You hear it on a regular basis with all of the names I listed above"

We heard announcers talking about him progressing through his reads the very first year and have continued to do so.
The problem is we have a Matador Pass Blocking scheme that doesn't permit any QB consistent time. He does, however still go through his reads while on the run, and most QBs don't develop that until later than their 2nd year, if at all.

I can attest to that as well. If anything, Russell appears at times to be apprehensive and seems to hold onto the ball forever before he breaks the pocket. Anyone that claims otherwise hasn't watched him play very often. His decision making is for the most part is very good.

[kalibane]

You are effed future. Your defense has major holes at corner and OLB; giant question marks on the defensive front and inside LB and you have zero depth. There is serious talk about this being the worst offseason in history. No to mention Bethea played way beyond what anyone would have expected from him. And remind me again how much of your coaching staff that was responsible for holding your team together enough for an 8-8 record you retained? It's going to take a lot of good luck for the Niners and bad luck for other teams for the Niners to finish any higher than 3rd in the division.

[Futureite]

You are effed future. Your defense has major holes at corner and OLB; giant question marks on the defensive front and inside LB and you have zero depth. There is serious talk about this being the worst offseason in history. No to mention Bethea played way beyond what anyone would have expected from him. And remind me again how much of your coaching staff that was responsible for holding your team together enough for an 8-8 record you retained? It's going to take a lot of good luck for the Niners and bad luck for other teams for the Niners to finish any higher than 3rd in the division.

Hahaha. Right. We are effed with the same outside LBS who have started the last 3 yrs - Aldon Smith and Ahmad Brooks? We are not even considering Aaron Lynch, who may start opposite Aldon and could be a star in this league.

Honestly, your only real legit point about our D is the question mark about Bowman. However, he is getting great reviews so far in OTAS for his lateral mocement as has been called the best player on the field. But you're convinced he's done. OK.

You are just taking rhe most negatuve position possible in every scenerio. Justin Smith was CLEARLY no longer a dominant DT or even the linemen eater he had been n prior yrs, but Dockett cannot replace him? We lost McDonald, but you do not even mention our best interior D linemen has been Glen Dorsey, and he is fully recovered from an injury that rarely effects play post surgery.

If you paid attention last yr, we started Quentin Dial, Chris Boreland, Perish Cox and a whole s*** load of other backups ALL yr long, and still eneed with a top 5 D. The D is BETTER this yr talent wise and it ain't gonna slip.

You also conveniently ignore that we may have let a record for 4th qtr futility last yr. yes, I agree the coaching turnover is an issue. Our O and it's system was horrendous last yr. Not only that, but we had no speed. I fail to see how upgrading the speed at WR and RB and changing the system could possibly be worse with different coaches.

List the personnel player by player for the Hawks and Niners and please tell me where this advantage supposedly lies. For Christ sake I can do the same thing you're doing:

You have no WRs, you have no Oline and lost your best blocking TE.

See how that works?

[Futureite]

Also, still arguing depth?? I thought what our D did last yr losing every player under the sun put that argument to rest. Meanwhile, Seahawks lose a couple guys and it's an excuse for their D not being able to stop a nosebleed. Was it really ONE MLB in Bobby Wagner returning that re-established your D last 3rd of the yr, or was it playing 6 horrendous Os in a row? Did losing Cliff Avril early in the SB and ONE DB cause your D to yak up a double digit 4th qtr lead? I seem to remember seeing our own Demarcus Dobbs on the field to end the h
game wearing Seahawk blue.

"You have no depth, yoy're effed". Still a funny guy, Kalibane!

[kalibane]

I'm not taking the most negative stance. I'm being a realist. You are the one being unrealistic.

Ahmad Brooks - You cite him as an asset but he was flat out bad last year and got benched.

Aaron Lynch - As you did with Dan Skuta, you have an unrealistic belief that every backup on the 49ers roster is as good or better than the guy in front of him.

Dockett is 34 (old for the NFL in the first place) and coming off an ACL tear. He was a team leader for the Cardinals and they cut him as soon as he passed a physical. But you assume he'll be an upgrade over Justin Smith.

ILB - at least you concede Bowman but it's not just him that's a question mark, someone has to replace him since he's replacing Willis. That's a gaping hole.

CB - Lost both your starters who weren't good to begin with. Brock was solid in the nickel but you assume he'll be find on the Outside. Ward was flat out TERRIBLE and now he's a starter? You wanted honey badger and got one of the honeycomb kids.

Dorsey - was a career disappointment until he had one good year in SF. You assume he's going to play like the outlier year instead of his body of work.

You lost the right side of your Offensive line and replaced them with a backup from the worst offensive line in the league last year and two low round draft choices. You shrug.

And to top it all off, you lost your entire defensive coaching staff with the exception of Jim Tomsula who will no longer actually be coaching defense because he'll be busy overseeing the whole operation. But again you assume, business as usual.

Hold the mirror up to yourself. Aside from Antoine Bethea and Aldon Smith your entire defense has question marks.

[MackStrongIsMyHero]

Also, still arguing depth?? I thought what our D did last yr losing every player under the sun put that argument to rest. Meanwhile, Seahawks lose a couple guys and it's an excuse for their D not being able to stop a nosebleed. Was it really ONE MLB in Bobby Wagner returning that re-established your D last 3rd of the yr, or was it playing 6 horrendous Os in a row? Did losing Cliff Avril early in the SB and ONE DB cause your D to yak up a double digit 4th qtr lead? I seem to remember seeing our own Demarcus Dobbs on the field to end the h
game wearing Seahawk blue.

"You have no depth, yoy're effed". Still a funny guy, Kalibane!

All right; your team had depth last year. So, now that all the depth has to start this year, who's backing them up? I think that's what Kalibane was getting at. Big Country and Willis were one-of-a-kind players; A 34-year old Dockett coming off an ACL tear doesn't give me the same confidence as Smith would; Bowman my very well bounce back, and I hope he does, but that was as nasty a leg injury to be had, very similar to Lattimore's situation and he never was able to get right. And, as was said, he's one of two middle linebackers, so who steps in there? It all comes down to the regular season, as with every team. That's what will separate the feel-good, offseason-preseason fluff from reality.

[kalibane]

Future,

We aren't talking about the Seahawks. We're talking about the state of the 49ers roster. Throwing out a bunch of stuff about the Seahawks that you think I may have said (but let me save you the time, I haven't) to try and distract from the subject at hand is irrelevant. Although it is kind of funny watching you try to act like the #1 scoring defense for three years running is somehow based on juked stats that belie their true performance.

The subject that we, you and I, are discussing is the state of the 49ers roster and coaching staff and what that means for the upcoming season and you haven't offered anything reasonable that would suggest they are going to be able match next year's performance let alone surpass it.

Your entire argument seems to be: Last year Chris Boreland came in and played really well, therefore every no name on our bench can step in and do the same, which is in a word, ridiculous.

[Futureite]

Future,

We aren't talking about the Seahawks. We're talking about the state of the 49ers roster. Throwing out a bunch of stuff about the Seahawks that you think I may have said (but let me save you the time, I haven't) to try and distract from the subject at hand is irrelevant. Although it is kind of funny watching you try to act like the #1 scoring defense for three years running is somehow based on juked stats that belie their true performance.

The subject that we, you and I, are discussing is the state of the 49ers roster and coaching staff and what that means for the upcoming season and you haven't offered anything reasonable that would suggest they are going to be able match next year's performance let alone surpass it.

Your entire argument seems to be: Last year Chris Boreland came in and played really well, therefore every no name on our bench can step in and do the same, which is in a word, ridiculous.

No, that is not even close to my argument. That is your argument; that backups or unknowns are playing, and I've overrated their ability. That's not the case, at all.

It's a fact that Glen Dorsey anchored our Dline in 2013 when Ian Williams broke his ankle in game 2 V Seattle. You can call him whatever you like but he was lights out for us in the same way Bennett was lights out for you after leaving not one but TWO teams (including the Seahawks).

It's a fact that Aldon Smith is one of the best pass rushers in the league. He's established that. It's a fact that he sat 9 games last yr.

It's a fact that Tramaine Brock is our best corner when he's been healthy. He WAS our starter, and lauded as our best corner by every local outlet you can find here.

You are discounting the return of guys that are establshed, and ignoring the fact that our D still rated in the top 5 with rookies or castoffs like Quentin Dial, Michael Willhoite, Perish Cox, Chris Boreland, Jerod-Eddie et al getting significant playing time all season. If I had posted last yr that all of those guys would play significant time in 2014, what would you have said? The same thing you are now - that the subs can't play and the players returning had "great" yrs that obviously cannot be duplicated.

Last, I am not even counting the unknowns who for some reason you've already determined cannot play. Aaron Lynch was near the top of the league in QB pressures in games he started. The guy looks like a rising freaking star. How do you know he's not?

An NFL.Com article posted a recent 2015 projected "comeback player of the year" which listed Bowman as a andidate and included a link entitled "Bowman wrecking the backfield". He's been getting high praise for his lateral movement and play in OTAs. How do you know he's not Thomas Davis, Frank Gore or countless others who've returned from knee injury?

These are just a couple I'm listing, and there's plenty more young talent stepping in who - according to you - already cannot play.

We'll see.

[Futureite]

MackStrong;

I'll list our 2014 starters first by beginning of yr depth chart, then by "actual" starter (player who started 50% or more last yr), which I'll denote in parenthesis:

D end: Justin Smith
DTackle: Ian Wiliams
D end: Ray McDonald

OLB: Dan Skuta
ILB: Willhoite
ILB: Patrick Willis (Boreland)
OLB: Ahmad Brooks

CB: Tramaine Brock (Perish Cox)
CB: Chris Culliver
FS: Eric Reid
SS: Antoine Bethea

Now here are 2015's projected or potential starters:

D end: Darnell Dockett
D Tackle: Ian Williams
D end: Glen Dorsey/Tank Carradine

OLB: Aldon Smith
ILB: Novorro Bowman
ILB: Michael Willhoite
OLB: Ahmad Brooks/Aaron Lynch

CB: Tramaine Brock
SS: Antoine Bethea
FS: Eric Reid
CB: D. Johnson

Of course we are ignoring other fluctuations due to injury. For example, Ian Williams only played 9 games before going on IR, etc. But the point is, do you REALLY see a substantial downgrade, or any in the D?

One could make the argument as most of you have that J. Smith and Ray McDonald are too big a blow to sustain. While it was apparent to me that Justin was not the same player he had been in the past, all we can objectively say is that neither player made all pro or even the probowl. Neither had outstanding production. Both positions are now assumed by experienced vets who have at the very least excelled at one point in their career. Can "solid" production lost be replaced by solid players? I believe so.

At LB, there is no question we are upgrading with Aldon a full go since OTAs, Bowman back and Aaron Lynch potentially replacing Brooks. That is a net upgrade over a group that for the majority of the yr consisted of Boreland, Willhoite and Skuta - 2 castoffs and a rookie.

Secondary loses one starter in Culliver and replaces him with Johnson, who played significant time last yr and performed well. At least in theory, it also adds its best and most consistent player in Tramaine Brock, who started only 2 games last yr due to injury. The nickel DBs are much the same as last yr, with the return/addition of failed high Rd pick castoffs in Sharice Wright and Chris Cook, and 49er draft picks returning from injury in Jimmie Ward, Kenneth Acker, Keith Reiser, etc. Exiting are similar grade players in Perish Cox, possibly the 8th Cromartie cousin LOL. There is no identifiable downgrade.

Seriously, compare the starting lineups and tell me what I am missing. I see a possible net upgrade, and the potential of several very talented young players to emerge as outstanding NFL players. Ironicay, the last sentence is something that NO ONE here is even considering as a posdibility, and I am neither relying upon or including in my analysis. If some of those guys DO produce, we'll have one of the top 3 Ds in the league.

But all of you are convinced none of the above will occur. Loan me your crystal ball, please!

[Futureite]

I'm not taking the most negative stance. I'm being a realist. You are the one being unrealistic.

Ahmad Brooks - You cite him as an asset but he was flat out bad last year and got benched.

Aaron Lynch - As you did with Dan Skuta, you have an unrealistic belief that every backup on the 49ers roster is as good or better than the guy in front of him.

Dockett is 34 (old for the NFL in the first place) and coming off an ACL tear. He was a team leader for the Cardinals and they cut him as soon as he passed a physical. But you assume he'll be an upgrade over Justin Smith.

ILB - at least you concede Bowman but it's not just him that's a question mark, someone has to replace him since he's replacing Willis. That's a gaping hole.

CB - Lost both your starters who weren't good to begin with. Brock was solid in the nickel but you assume he'll be find on the Outside. Ward was flat out TERRIBLE and now he's a starter? You wanted honey badger and got one of the honeycomb kids.

Dorsey - was a career disappointment until he had one good year in SF. You assume he's going to play like the outlier year instead of his body of work.

You lost the right side of your Offensive line and replaced them with a backup from the worst offensive line in the league last year and two low round draft choices. You shrug.

And to top it all off, you lost your entire defensive coaching staff with the exception of Jim Tomsula who will no longer actually be coaching defense because he'll be busy overseeing the whole operation. But again you assume, business as usual.

Hold the mirror up to yourself. Aside from Antoine Bethea and Aldon Smith your entire defense has question marks.

Ahmad Brooks got benched due to Aaron Lynch's ability to rush the passer dude. Looks at his QB hits/hurries stats. He was a freaking monster in pursuit and rushing the QB, and he'll probably start. Ahmad was the EXACT same player he'd been in the past, even to the point of ending another Saints' game with a strip sack of Brees for the 2nd yr in a row. That's a perfect example of you seeing what you want to see.

The Oline? How do you not know that Alex Boone held out the entire offseason and went from being one of the best gaurd on the league to one of the worst. You say we lost Anthony Davis, but did you even know that Jonathon Martin started MORE games as his replacement? The Oline could and should be a HELL of a lot better this yr than it was last.

You are cherry picking. We had the season from hell last yr losing guys due to injury, suspension and everything else and you have somehow caught amnesia and assumed we are downgraded across the board for in some cases losing players who hardly even played LOL!

We will see!

[MackStrongIsMyHero]

Future,

I'm still on a wait and see from two guys that are coming back from ACL tears; Dockett is 290 pounds and in the trenches and Bowman's injury, again, was just nasty. Maybe they come back 100% and last the whole season, and I hope they do just from a personal goodwill standpoint; this is their livelihood, but I've got to see it to believe it. The others stepping up could do a great job as starters, but then, if your depth last year is stepping up, who's your depth this year?

You've got guys returning from injury, last year's depth starting this year, and untested depth behind them as well as major losses in coaching staff. I'm not writing them off, I'm just not as optimistic about them.

[kalibane]

Cherry Picking? LOL... yeah I cherry picked pretty much every position group. But I know how we can settle this. Since you love to fall back on talking heads who agree with your point as "proof" you're right. Let's ask them?

Oh what most of them have already chimed in and picked the 49ers to finish 3rd or 4th in the division. The guys from NFL.com even put them on the list of 10 teams that they believe have absolutely no chance to win the Superbowl next year. There you have it... Talking heads agree with me so I'm right and you're wrong. LOL

[Futureite]

Cherry Picking? LOL... yeah I cherry picked pretty much every position group. But I know how we can settle this. Since you love to fall back on talking heads who agree with your point as "proof" you're right. Let's ask them?

Oh what most of them have already chimed in and picked the 49ers to finish 3rd or 4th in the division. The guys from NFL.com even put them on the list of 10 teams that they believe have absolutely no chance to win the Superbowl next year. There you have it... Talking heads agree with me so I'm right and you're wrong. LOL

Popular opinion does carry some weight. You cannot simply discount it completely. I completely understand the public perception and that of pundits. Often times they do not know the roster, the scheme or the aquisitions. Their opinions are understandable.

What I do not expect is a division rival's fanbase relying on the same info to form their opinion, completely discounting players they've watched perform. One could make a strong argument that we win 2 more games with Aldon Smith a go from day 1. That's legit, reasonable and probably accurate.

So again, I guess we'll see how valuable some of these players exiting and returning were and are to the team.