More Wilson Contract stuff

[SalmonBB]

Anyone else smell what's going on in L.A.?

I try to think critically, and not let paranoia take over. A few weeks ago, I stated I was confident the long term deal for RW would get done, whether this year or next. But then, a few things have added up and now I find myself worried. In short, I smell L.A. in the works.

What do I mean? I mean RW and PC ... and maybe JS ... heading off to L.A. in 2016 to lead the Chargers. If the Charger's move gets pushed off to 2017, they franchise RW in 2016, and hold off. If it doesn't happen, then they stay put.

Why?
PC: A Better L.A.
Selling his house on Mercer Island
USC
Closer to the Hollywood A-listers he likes to invite in
The sun
Winning in LA will add more to a legacy than winning in Seattle (i.e., big market in L.A.)

RW: His fascination with "Entourage" and friendship with their cast
Hanging with other "stars"
His close relation to PC, and the fact that PC lets him play without trying to change him (not many coaches would do this ... there is good reason for him to follow PC)
The sun
Winning in L.A. will make him more eligible as a future HOFer than winning in Seattle will do
His early childhood memories of his dad trying out for the Chargers ... there is a sentimental tie there, perhaps
San Diego sticking with Rivers rather than trading him to go with a younger prospect (i.e., someone there holding off for PC and RW)
The fact that the FO entered into talks to sign Bobby Wagner long term adds into my paranoia. If they sign Bobby, how will they afford RW without having to franchise him next year?

JS: Only reason I include JS here is that it would be pretty hard to pull the above off without JS's knowledge and collaboration.
Maybe this whole concern about not signing RW is not "the F.O. messing up," but the the top guys in the F.O. making other plans

In the end, I would be hurt if this played out. With that said, if it is PC's and RW's dream to go to L.A., then what is wrong with that? Obviously this is all highly speculative, but it all seems to be adding up ... and I get that feeling like the writing's on the wall. The past few years just seem too good to have been true, and maybe Seattle is about to re-experience its long sports heritage of getting screwed. I hate writing these words. I love PC, I love RW, and love what JS has done for our team and city. I hate to think that they could have it in them to have a plan to leave Seattle in favor of L.A., and I hope that they do not.

Of course, Paul Allen would likely have to be somewhat naive to this ... and he is not naive. So that's my main check on my paranoia. Also, PC is getting older, and it may not be too wise to start fresh with another team. Finally, RW does have ties up here with Seattle Children's Hospital, and I do think that he and PC understand there is no other football atmosphere to compare to Century Link, and no other fanbase like the 12th Man.

But I can't help but get nervous. The news on the Bobby Wagner contract talks tipped me over the edge today. News is that if they sign Bobby, the Seahawks will be stuck with franchising RW in 2016 (with that said, who knows if that is actually true ... the media is usually full of it). I'd love for Booby to sign long term ... but it played right into my greatest worry ... that of losing our QB.

GO SEAHAWKS!!!

[NorthHawk]

I'm not sure the NFL would allow that type of collusion to happen.
Purposefully not signing a player (or a player not signing) so they could sign him later on a new team in a different city is too far beyond what would be acceptable in any league in any sport - except maybe in a FIFA controlled league.
Something like that could bring the whole league down.

[jshawaii22]

Collusion between Pete Carroll, RW and his agent, the NFL and the Los Angeles Chargers? I'm sure CBS has their hand in this, too, as RW would move from Fox to CBS for around 13 games a year.

Wow... we're heading into uncharted territory now. Love it! How many shots did you have to come up with that one, SB&B?

js

[Anthony]

Anthony,

I think the team went into the off-season with every intention of signing Russell to a shiney, new contract. But if it doesn't happen then doing the others this year should be done. I'm not sure about rolling over cap space. Wasn't that ended last year? Anyway, the cap is supposed to go up another 10m give or take, with the new Thursday night NFL package, so there will be money next year, there is always money if you plan it right.

js

Yes but is there enough to pay Wilson the market rate and do JS want to? All things we do not know for sure but there is some low level evidence to support that may not want to.

[Anthony]

I'm not sure the NFL would allow that type of collusion to happen.
Purposefully not signing a player (or a player not signing) so they could sign him later on a new team in a different city is too far beyond what would be acceptable in any league in any sport - except maybe in a FIFA controlled league.
Something like that could bring the whole league down.

Yeah I am not sure about that either, but all this also adds to my concerns.

[Hawktawk]

So, does this mean that it is official? The Seahawk F/O has been low balling R.W. ??? Does Pete really believe T-jack could have done just as good as Russell??? Is Pete smoking crack?

If They hadn't of wasted the money they gave to Pussy Harvin and Cyndi Rice they would have had the money to pay Wilson!

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^+1 Truth. Give him the 25 million he is worth it. Let Wags walk if necessary.....

[obiken]

No I don't think PC believes he can even make the POffs with TJack, its just keeping RW's contract low enough to where you can have a really good team around him. There is a line there between cheating him and getting him to realize that he is a super commercial product and he doesn't have to make it all on his FBall contract. The problem as Cbob and River have pointed out, a lot of variables come into play, especially the Union.

[RiverDog]

Yea, SBB, you really went over the top with that one.

Like North Hawk said, the NFL will never permit that type of collusion to exist, and if it did happen, it would be relatively easy to prove. Pete and Russell would be banned for life, and probably sued by the Hawks. Heck, it might even attract the attention of the feds.

[NorthHawk]

Not to mention an owner could never trust Schneider to manage his team in the owners best interest.
JS would effectively be managing his last team.

[SalmonBB]

Thanks for bringing me back to earth, guys. All good points.

JSHawaii, my problem is probably that I didn't take any shots! Stopped drinking a couple years ago, and alcohol would have helped me settle down from the paranoid thoughts of PC, RW, and JS making plans to move from Seattle. I should go for a run.

GO SEAHAWKS!!!

[Seahawks4Ever]

If you ran the Seahawks who would you rather put the EFT on, BWags or RW? BWags, of course, you EFT Wilson and you blow up the salary cap.

But now, the Seahawks F/O has tacitly admitted that they are officially at an impasse with Wilson and his agent by letting the press know that they are now going to concentrate on Bobby Wagner. Once they get BWags signature on an extension they will turn to Wilson and his agent Rogers and say "see that number, that is ALL we can pay Wilson because of the salary cap". Then they will say either accept our offer or play out the 2015 season and hope you don't get hurt. Oh, and btw Russell don't let the fact we have failed yet again to upgrade the O-Line as a factor. We all know you know how to run for your life!

On another subject, you really think it is going to be the Chargers that move to L.A. and not the Rams? You do know the owner of the Rams has bought enough land to build a brand new football stadium in the L.A. area??

I don't think the Chargers are going to L.A. but that doesn't mean that Pete would go to San Diego.

[NorthHawk]

"But now, the Seahawks F/O has tacitly admitted that they are officially at an impasse with Wilson and his agent by letting the press know that they are now going to concentrate on Bobby Wagner."

I don't infer that they are at an impasse and I don't think the evidence implies it at all.

Our FO has received a position paper outlining RW's position. It has to be dissected and discussed in depth by the team before any response can be crafted.
It might be that Wilson's position is to play out this contract before going into meaningful negotiations regardless of the offer, thus there is no counter offer to be made.
If they are still actively negotiating, it doesn't mean they can't negotiate with Wagner while they examine the document from Wilson.

[RiverDog]

On another subject, you really think it is going to be the Chargers that move to L.A. and not the Rams? You do know the owner of the Rams has bought enough land to build a brand new football stadium in the L.A. area??

I don't think the Chargers are going to L.A. but that doesn't mean that Pete would go to San Diego.

Kroneke doesn't have to build a stadium on that property he bought. He bought it as an ace in the hole in case talks with St. Louis and the state of Missouri break down.

St. Louis is further ahead in their stadium talks than either Oakland or San Diego. If both the Chargers and Raiders move to LA as has been the most recent speculation, the Rams will be the odd man out. The league would never permit three teams in the same market, not while they have their greedy eyeballs on London.

[Hawktawk]

No I don't think PC believes he can even make the POffs with TJack, its just keeping RW's contract low enough to where you can have a really good team around him. There is a line there between cheating him and getting him to realize that he is a super commercial product and he doesn't have to make it all on his FBall contract. The problem as Cbob and River have pointed out, a lot of variables come into play, especially the Union.

Why in the world should Wilson take a lower deal based on his commercial viability? Does Manning do that?Brady? Rodgers? Umm no Mr discount double check.Its ridiculous.Last year there were apparently some butt hurt Hawks jealous when Wilson did cut some commercials to pay the bills so I guess he cant win.Wilson wants RESPECT AND APPRECIATION for what hes done and nothing says that like showing him the money.
And there is NO LEAGUE IMPEDIMENT WHATSOEVER for the Hawks not to renegotiate his contract except their stinginess, which hasn't applied to any of the golden boys on defense or Mr antisocial Marshawn Lynch.And it looks to me like there will be a really good team around him regardless of what happens with Wags. Why cant they sign Wilson and let Wags twist in the wind instead? F tag HIM. He isn't ANYWHERE as important as RW even though he is a great LB.Wags has missed games with injury the past 2 seasons. RW has NEVER MISSED A SNAP as a pro despite getting knocked around like a pinball wizard behind this ridiculous line.I could see Russell saying fine tag me twice and I will NEVER sign and in 3 seasons become one of the most coveted unrestricted FA's in NFL history. And Seattle will be mediocre again with a now aging defense, Lynch retired and some stiff behind center.

JS is poisoning the well with his lowball game. PAY THE MAN NOW!!!!!!!

[NorthHawk]

"I could see Russell saying fine tag me twice and I will NEVER sign and in 3 seasons become one of the most coveted unrestricted FA's in NFL history. And Seattle will be mediocre again with a now aging defense, Lynch retired and some stiff behind center."

If that's Wilson's position, no amount of money would get him to sign so we might as well move on to Wagner.

[RiverDog]

"I could see Russell saying fine tag me twice and I will NEVER sign and in 3 seasons become one of the most coveted unrestricted FA's in NFL history. And Seattle will be mediocre again with a now aging defense, Lynch retired and some stiff behind center."

If that's Wilson's position, no amount of money would get him to sign so we might as well move on to Wagner.

Precisely, and although I seriously doubt that we've given up hope of signing Russell to a relatively team friendly contract, I do think that line of thinking is what drove the FO to begin their talks with Wagner.

[c_hawkbob]

The third year of the F-tag is a 44% raise. After getting a 44% raise on the second, we're talking some very serious one year dollars.

[obiken]

HT if that is RW's attitude than we were screwed from day one. There is no way we can keep a team together on those terms. He is not PM, AR, or TB. He fits our scheme very well, but he is not them. We have to find a middle ground between 10 and 20 mill a year.

[jshawaii22]

On the subject of 'Stadium's in LA' -- I'm not trying to be racist, but Hollywood Park closed because of it's location in LA. No one would go to the weeknight races. Couldn't stay in business. Now, football is mostly on Sunday's, but the NFL will take note of the potential for Thursday, Sunday & Monday night games as well as playoff games that will be started with the change to the playoff format coming.

I'd MUCH rather drive out to Carson then risk my life trying to get in and out of the dregs of LA... like Hollywood Park. I wonder if the FAA would even allow a stadium there. It's dead in the flight path of the Airport arrival runways.

js

[RiverDog]

Yea, I saw that 3rd year 44% raise clause. So how does that work? Average of the top 5 at the position plus top 5 average times .44?

On the subject of Hollywood Park, I don't know the particulars of why that particular racetrack closed, but the harness racing industry in general took a huge hit starting in the late 70's with off track betting, lotteries, and Indian casinos competing with them for limited amounts of gambling dollars. At one time, harness racing was the largest spectator sport in the nation with every city of 50,000 or so it seemed, having their own race track.

[HumanCockroach]

Does Manning do that?Brady? Rodgers?

Um, yes, yes and I'm not sure. Each of the first two continue to renegotiate their contract to what the team needs, so the can continue to vie for and win championships ( Manning did so just a month or so ago, and Brady routinely does so, most notably last season to allow the Pats to sign Revis). You might want to try a different angle.

[c_hawkbob]

Yea, I saw that 3rd year 44% raise clause. So how does that work? Average of the top 5 at the position plus top 5 average times .44?

No, it's a 44% raise from the previous year's salary, which would have been a 44% raise from the first year of the tag. Do the math, that puts the third year at more than double the first year tag amount.

[Anthony]

If you ran the Seahawks who would you rather put the EFT on, BWags or RW? BWags, of course, you EFT Wilson and you blow up the salary cap.

But now, the Seahawks F/O has tacitly admitted that they are officially at an impasse with Wilson and his agent by letting the press know that they are now going to concentrate on Bobby Wagner. Once they get BWags signature on an extension they will turn to Wilson and his agent Rogers and say "see that number, that is ALL we can pay Wilson because of the salary cap". Then they will say either accept our offer or play out the 2015 season and hope you don't get hurt. Oh, and btw Russell don't let the fact we have failed yet again to upgrade the O-Line as a factor. We all know you know how to run for your life!

On another subject, you really think it is going to be the Chargers that move to L.A. and not the Rams? You do know the owner of the Rams has bought enough land to build a brand new football stadium in the L.A. area??

I don't think the Chargers are going to L.A. but that doesn't mean that Pete would go to San Diego.

That would be a dangerous and stupid move on their part.

[Anthony]

Does Manning do that?Brady? Rodgers?

Um, yes, yes and I'm not sure. Each of the first two continue to renegotiate their contract to what the team needs, so the can continue to vie for and win championships ( Manning did so just a month or so ago, and Brady routinely does so, most notably last season to allow the Pats to sign Revis). You might want to try a different angle.

YEs but none of them are on their first big contract so not apples to apples

[HumanCockroach]

Your point? The man asked a question, and I answered it. You don't have like either, but that changes nothing.

[Seahawks4Ever]

Well Anthony, it appears that the Seahawks are definitely headed that way. After B-Wags signs the Seahawks will have a certain amount of money left under the salary cap for 2015 and any extension will reflect that. That amount will severely limit how much money the Seahawks can pay in the first year of the extension. It will also affect just how much of a signing bonus Wilson would get and how many years it would be strung out.

We can all agree that it would be catastrophic for the Hawks if they have to put the EFT on Wilson even once and it doesn't get any better for the next few years.

As for a home team discount Wilson already gave them one by being such a great QB from the get go. Now, made down the road after he has been paid handsomely maybe Russell would be open to having a contract worked in order to keep the talent level high but now is not the time.

RW has watched the F/O fall all over other players and pay them top dollar, now, that it is Wilson's turn all of a sudden they can't seem to write a deal that Wilson can live with. I mean, if they offer Wilson less than CK, Tannehill, Cam, and Luck they would be treating him like a chump.

All I know if Russell is forced to play out his rookie contract and ends up being hurt, maybe badly, possibly affecting his market value, then I am going to be one mad SOB.

[HumanCockroach]

So you would prefer they sign him to an enormous contract prior to getting hurt? Strange position.

[obiken]

I just have RW on too much of a pedestal. I will believe to the end that he wants a fair contract but not one that will hurt the team. I am probably naive and wrong.

[jshawaii22]

Actually, many of the extensions were for a VERY reasonable price: Bennett, Kam, ET, Marshawn. The only high value was Sherman's and he is top 5 and worth it.
I think that this is a very smart FO and this is why we are 'so far apart' with Wilson. The same FO let Tate and Maxwell and other FA's walk. Good or bad, they don't overpay.

Contracts are a negotiation. Remember that JS came from Green Bay, the same GB that let Brett Favre walk away and rarely play the FA game.
We just need to get used to it if we want to be successful over the long run, like GB and NE are.

IMHO Russell will never be the highest paid QB in the NFL and a Seahawk at the same time. Top 5, but not the top.

js

[obiken]

Yes but if he walks how is that better long term???

[jshawaii22]

It's painful to think Russell will walk if we don't make him the highest paid QB in the NFL. It's more painful to think he walks if we don't cave in to every demand. We don't even know what the parameters are for each side's offer so everything is just speculation anyway.

RW's agent may be asking for something more esoteric, like 100% guaranteed money or the largest signing bonus ever. It may be unrealistic. Still want the FO to cave in no matter what collateral damage to the team there is?

No one wants to see Russell walk. Salary caps can be very mean. We're in that territory now. Every talking head has been warning us for 2 years. It should not be a surprise for us fans.

js

[RiverDog]

I just have RW on too much of a pedestal. I will believe to the end that he wants a fair contract but not one that will hurt the team. I am probably naive and wrong.

I think that a lot of us may have fallen into the trap that Russell, being such a great all around good guy that ends every interview with a "Go Hawks!", would never be so materialistic as to let a few million bucks ruin what has been a fairy tale 3 year stint. I think I'm a bit guilty of that mindset, too.

But I still think that he's a Seahawk at heart, and that he'll do what ever is reasonable to keep what we have going. I don't think he's going to force us to decide between him and staying relevant for the next 6-8 years.

[c_hawkbob]

I'm right there with you OBI. There are some people in this world that just plain get it right, Russ is one of 'em.

[Hawktown]

I would personally PAY a million dollars to play in the NFL if I had it!

RW, IMO, if he wants to be a winner and not greedy, then he needs to think of the team not money, he will get rich regardless . The front office can only do so much and RW knows that. If he cannot accept a fair team friendly deal then he is obviously all about himself. If that is the case, I let him walk even with the consequences of not having that franchise QB. I personally do not play the greed game and loathe those who do.

For every dollar a person capitalizes on, they are taking away from someone/something else in a negative manner.

[NorthHawk]

We have stockpiled a roster with ultra competitive people.
That quality permeates their lives, not just on the Football field.
That being the case, it shouldn't be a surprise if Wilson wants to be at the top of the pay scale - if that's what he is asking for.

It's possible he's asking to be the highest paid QB, but it's also possible he wants to be a winner on the field even more.
These are things we will never know for sure, but can only surmise after a deal is struck.

[Hawktawk]

Um, yes, yes and I'm not sure. Each of the first two continue to renegotiate their contract to what the team needs, so the can continue to vie for and win championships ( Manning did so just a month or so ago, and Brady routinely does so, most notably last season to allow the Pats to sign Revis). You might want to try a different angle.[/quote]


YEs but none of them are on their first big contract so not apples to apples[/quote]

Exactly Anthony. Brady gave back some money after 5 Super Bowls and a 14 year career. Manning never gave back a dime until Elway made him this last off season when he started playing like weekend at Bernie's.

So yeah HC not a fair comparison at all. RW has averaged 12 wins his first 3 seasons on punter money. Its a ridiculous argument.

[Hawktawk]

HT if that is RW's attitude than we were screwed from day one. There is no way we can keep a team together on those terms. He is not PM, AR, or TB. He fits our scheme very well, but he is not them. We have to find a middle ground between 10 and 20 mill a year.

Well there you have it Obiken." He isnt PM,AR, or TB". Thats way too many fans and JS's position and its flat out stupid.I wouldn't trade him for any of them.If you really think hes signing for between 10 and 20 million you are delusional. 20 to 25 maybe.
I think he is as valuable as those guys and more and should be compensated as such. He put up four thousand yards of offense in a very devastating way for defenses, rushing for almost 900 yards to go with 3200 passing. Entering his 4th season he already holds numerous NFL records including most passing yards by a rookie in a playoff game,a record that had stood since set by Sammy Baugh in 1937. I think he threw more TD passes in his first 2 seasons than any QB as well, not certain on that but the number is 52.He tied Manning with 26 TD passes as the most by a rookie(manning had 26 picks too)Most wins first 3 seasons, only QB to reach 2 super bowls first 3 seasons, only QB to EVER throw for 300 yds and rush for 100 in a game. Only QB to throw for over 200 yards and rush for 100 IN THE HISTORY OF MNF!!!!!!!!!!!!He almost did it again vs AZ throwing for almost 400 yds and rushing for nearly 90 while setting the team mark for yardage. That with a lousy injury prone line and a PEDESTRIAN receiving corps, no apologies to PA Doug Baldwin.He just spent the off season leading the team in unorganized activities and busting his tail getting stronger and quicker.Hes only going to get better.

The guy is a once in a lifetime player, maybe up there with the likes of Roger Staubach as a dual threat QB when its all said and done. It isn't worth taking a chance on losing him.See Steve Hutchinson as example A B and C except the stakes are way higher here.Don't be a Ruskell JS.


Pay him.

[HumanCockroach]

Oh, OK, so let's have Wilson get paid whatever he so desires, not compete for SB's and then , hopefully he does it at the end. Solid plan fellas, I'm totally on board now, by the way, how many SB's were won after those guys hit the lotto? ( the nswer is one, combined, over a ten year period). Also, if someone feels the urge to point out "apple's to apple's" maybe that someone should STOP comparing a veteran RB contract situation, to a QB coming off a his first rookie contract a year from now. And if someone else doesn't want the actual answer to his question, maybe, don't ask it in the first place.

[mykc14]

Again this isn't as easy as everybody is making it. The newest report is that the Hawks have offered RW about 22 mil/year in new money. We'll see what happens and this in no way includes a lot of information like how much guaranteed, etc but the continual b*tching about PC and JS lowballing RW doesn't seem quit accurate either, if you believe everything you hear from the media. IMO this doesn't address the major sticking point which is that 22 mil AYP in new money doesn't get him the 20 + mil/yr he is looking for. He is looking for much closer to 24 or 25 mil yr in new money. I'm still sticking to 4 year 96 mil extension with around 60 mil guaranteed. Which would be about 24 mil new money APY.

DAVIS HSU ‏@DavisHsuSeattle 25m25 minutes ago
danny Oneil says Seahawks have offered Wilson a contract similar to Big Ben (which is $21.7M New Money APY) I think that is close to FAIR-

[Hawktawk]

If RW is being offered 22 million APY new money thats pretty fair considering Big Ben's deal and accomplishments over the course of his career. Of course it isn't Ben's first payday either so maybe not a fair comparison. But if the number is there I feel a little better about something getting done pretty soon.