OT Hoyer/Manziel

[Hawktawk]

It is incredible watching Mike Pettine continue to bungle the QB situation in Cleveland. Hoyer is terrible with 8 picks and 1 TD over the past 4 games. Manziel could not possibly be worse than a QB who couldn't parlay 4 defensive turnovers and 14 defensive points into a home win, leading the rest of us to get to hear the talking heads lather up about the great Luck comeback.Pettine said afterwards he "never considered" yanking Hoyer. If Hoyer had this terrific body of work historically I could understand the loyalty better but hes never even played a full season.

Maybe there isn't the interest in this subject on this forum but just my 02 cents as a football fan I want to see the kid play.Its Johnny football time.

[NorthHawk]

PFT has a story about Manziel going to a Cavs game instead of watching game film as a QB who has a chance to start might want to do.
As well, Pettine talked to some of the veterans on the team and the apparent consensus was that it would look like they are giving up if they dumped Hoyer at that time.
You don't want your veteran leaders not on the same page going forward, but I suspect we will see more Manziel the last few games and I guess in hindsight it might have sparked the team to put him in yesterday.

One of the comments in PFT was that the players on the team would have comments like 'Wow, I can't believe he DID that' followed by a play where they would say ' Wow, I can't believe he did THAT'.

[kalibane]

I don't think he bungled it at all. Hoyer was something like 12-6 over his last 18 starts before last week. Name one QB who gets benched for a rookie in the middle of playoff race? Knee jerk decision.

Besides, they wanted Manziel to win the job and Hoyer did about as much as he could in the pre-season to help that happen. The fact that he didn't win is a HUGE red flag.

Furthermore, rumor is that Pettine polled the locker room and Manziel lost by a comfortable margin. I think if anything they are hiding from the embarrassment regarding how bad Manziel might be. And considering how well Mike Evans is playing in that freakshow down in Tampa, he might have had way more to do with Manziel's passing success in college than people care to admit.

Now flopping against the Colts the way he did after 3 games of being terrible I get it. They are trending down big time and a QB change may be the only thing that can get them to the playoffs.

[rottweiler]

Manziel is a punk.

Hoyer is my hero, and the hero of blue-collar NFL fans all around the world.

Everyone has bad days.

Not everyone is an arrogant, spoiled punk b**** rich kid.

[c_hawkbob]

Manziel is a punk.

Hoyer is my hero, and the hero of blue-collar NFL fans all around the world.

Everyone has bad days.

Not everyone is an arrogant, spoiled punk b**** rich kid.

Where's that thumbs up icon ...

[Hawktawk]

Theres plenty of things not to like about Johnny for sure. Hes no Wilson but nobody is. Hes a playboy but some of those guys have had success. No question he gave the team a huge lift when he entered the game 2 weeks ago. Hoyer may be a better person, probably is. I'm sure he works harder. He just sucks though to the point its hard to watch. Maybe Manziel will too. Like I said, as a football fan I'm just curious to see what happens.

[RiverDog]

Theres plenty of things not to like about Johnny for sure. Hes no Wilson but nobody is. Hes a playboy but some of those guys have had success. No question he gave the team a huge lift when he entered the game 2 weeks ago. Hoyer may be a better person, probably is. I'm sure he works harder. He just sucks though to the point its hard to watch. Maybe Manziel will too. Like I said, as a football fan I'm just curious to see what happens.

There was only 12 minutes left in that game and the Bills were ahead by 17 points, or 3 scores, when Manziel entered that game. That qualifies as garbage time. You can't make a fair comparison when all the opposition is doing at that point in the game is guarding against the big play.

[HumanCockroach]

Honestly, barring one run for a TD, and a blown fumble call for a TD that was turned into a forward pass, Manziel wasn't providing much of a "spark" in that game. Not sure where folks got that impression, but he didn't do so. If he HAD done so, it wouldn't have been Hoyer starting that game against the Colts. Truth is, the Browns started the best option to WIN the game, if he wasn't do people honestly believe they would still be running Hoyer out there??

Even WITH that said, Hoyer can't catch the damn ball too. Maybe people should be focussing on Gordon dropping two very catcheable balls that would have won the game for Cleveland, instead of insisting the human hype machine could "do no worse" or would "provide" some mythical spark that is so obvious that the Browns players universally don't want him on the field.

[Hawktawk]

Hoyer has thrown multiple picks in each of the last 3 games with no TD passes. He has gone 29 drives without a TD. In the second half yesterday the Browns had 2 first downs, 1 by penalty. Manziel COULD NOT BE ANY WORSE. As for the team supposedly loving Hoyer and hating Manziel I dont see that. I saw lots of back slaps and high fives when JM made a play, both in preseason and in his limited action. And the reports of defensive players flinging helmets and dropping profanities after yesterday i think they are off the Hoyer bandwagon.Gordon missed a couple of "catchable" balls but Hoyer missed a couple of wide open TD throws and was dreadful with his accuracy and footwork throughout the game. Either way I'm reasonably certain we are going to begin to find out what JM has this next week. I'm on the record in the preseason as saying I think he will be a successful pro. As always Ill eat the crow if I'm wrong about that.

[Hawktawk]

There was only 12 minutes left in that game and the Bills were ahead by 17 points, or 3 scores, when Manziel entered that game. That qualifies as garbage time. You can't make a fair comparison when all the opposition is doing at that point in the game is guarding against the big play.

RD I get the point. Backup is a lot different than starter.Coming in off the bench late in a blowout is easier. If Pettine does what I think and names Manziel as next weeks starter it will be a different level of pressure.We shall see.IMO there isn't a very tough act to follow.

[Distant Relative]

Either QB is a franchise QB. JM is a Punk and is not a leader. Wasted draft pick if you ask me. Cleveland has set them self's back another five years with that pick.

[Hawktawk]

They may have...Cleveland has been pretty good at drafting bad QBs. We shall see....

[HumanCockroach]

Hoyer has thrown multiple picks in each of the last 3 games with no TD passes. He has gone 29 drives without a TD. In the second half yesterday the Browns had 2 first downs, 1 by penalty. Manziel COULD NOT BE ANY WORSE. As for the team supposedly loving Hoyer and hating Manziel I dont see that. I saw lots of back slaps and high fives when JM made a play, both in preseason and in his limited action. And the reports of defensive players flinging helmets and dropping profanities after yesterday i think they are off the Hoyer bandwagon.Gordon missed a couple of "catchable" balls but Hoyer missed a couple of wide open TD throws and was dreadful with his accuracy and footwork throughout the game. Either way I'm reasonably certain we are going to begin to find out what JM has this next week. I'm on the record in the preseason as saying I think he will be a successful pro. As always Ill eat the crow if I'm wrong about that.

Are you serious? Things can always be worse. Much worse? Maybe not, but it can definitely be worse. As for the players being universally behind playing Hoyer, that is simply what is being reported by numerous sources. That the players were polled before the last game and decided the starter ( Hoyer). No idea if that is true or not, but IMO the coaching staff isn't going to choose to start the QB with the least opportunity to succeed when fighting for playoff births, especially when playing a suspect Indy D.

[Hawktawk]

HC I think as Seahawks fans we have to be careful about these"numerous sources" reports. Obviously as with our situation the Cleveland QB controversy gives the press something to talk about but we now know a lot of what was reported wasn't accurate. Ultimately losing is losing. As Pettine himself said"its a results oriented business and we have lost 2 of 3." I have no real rooting interest in this story other than curiosity as a fan of the game.

[Hawktawk]

LOL Marvin Lewis referred to Manziel as a "midget" in his press conference. Whooeee!! Getcha popcorn ready should be fun.

[HumanCockroach]

HC I think as Seahawks fans we have to be careful about these"numerous sources" reports. Obviously as with our situation the Cleveland QB controversy gives the press something to talk about but we now know a lot of what was reported wasn't accurate. Ultimately losing is losing. As Pettine himself said"its a results oriented business and we have lost 2 of 3." I have no real rooting interest in this story other than curiosity as a fan of the game.

Does it matter? Who did the coaches start? WHY would they start the lesser QB IF he gave them a spark, IF he gave them a better chance at victory with a playoff birth on the line? Logically speaking, what you are saying makes ZERO sense, regardless of reports of the players one way or another. That coaching staff is coaching for job security moving forward, and are striving to WIN and WIN now, if NOT, they wouldn't have been starting Hoyer for the entire season.

Sorry Hawk, but there is NO other reasonable way to view that.

[Zorn76]

Cleveland is toast either way.

Might as well throw Manziel into the fire to see what he can do, which I suspect won't be much.

I don't think this kid will have more than a mediocre career in the NFL as a starter. Too emotionally driven to succeed, and won't handle adversity very well.

[Hawktawk]

Does it matter? Who did the coaches start? WHY would they start the lesser QB IF he gave them a spark, IF he gave them a better chance at victory with a playoff birth on the line? Logically speaking, what you are saying makes ZERO sense, regardless of reports of the players one way or another. That coaching staff is coaching for job security moving forward, and are striving to WIN and WIN now, if NOT, they wouldn't have been starting Hoyer for the entire season.

Sorry Hawk, but there is NO other reasonable way to view that.

Hoyer is the lowest ranked starter in the league. His qbr is far worse than RGIIIs. His Qbr over the last 4 games has averaged 31. He is handing the ball over and not putting up points. How exactly does that help Cleveland win? Its truly been a case of "in spite of" Hoyer in several of the wins and "because of Hoyer" in the last few losses, no more so than Sunday.Cleveland has a really nice defense, good line and good running game. They have very decent receivers although Gordon looks overweight.(Id still take him) They have a very good TE. But is spite of the TE and Gordon getting back in Hoyer has continued to decline. The team is built for an offense that moves the ball, puts up a decent amount of scores, and doesn't turn it over. Hoyer fails on every count. Opinion in the media was about 50-50 last week but its overwhelming now. Id be stunned to see Hoyer get another start this year barring injury to Manziel. As for Johnny Football we will see. Lewis is a sly old fox and Im sure he will have some confusion dialed up. It could get ugly but I think it will be very entertaining.

[BelizeHawk]

"Furthermore, rumor is that Pettine polled the locker room and Manziel lost by a comfortable margin."
Do you think you'd ever see Carroll, Holmgren, Belicheck, or any HC worth his weight, poll the locker room in regards to any decision outside of chicken or fish for the post game banquet?
Pettine needs to grow some balls. Will they ever win a championship with Hoyer? No. Will they with Manziel? Probably not but probably not is way better than a definite no. Give Manziel enough rope to either hang himself or take the bull down... and be definitive about your decision.

[HumanCockroach]

I never said that Hoyer played great this season, what I said was the coaches started the player who gave them the best chance to win football games. Where's the confusion on that? Obviously they feel that Hoyers struggles and play, exceed what Johnny Hypeball can provide, hence Johnny continues to sit, while Hoyer continues to play. Truth is Hoyer hasn't had a great season, truth also is, he has just completed season one starting in the NFL, truth also is, he has the BEST record of any starter in Cleveland over the last 20 years, so something is indeed working. Whether Johnny hype provides anything other than multiple mistakes, a couple exciting plays, and a quick exit remains to be seen. Nothing ( and that encompasses all arenas) shows me in any way shape or form that the guy is an upgrade over Hoyer ( at least at this point).

[Hawktawk]

Do you think you'd ever see Carroll, Holmgren, Belicheck, or any HC worth his weight, poll the locker room in regards to any decision outside of chicken or fish for the post game banquet?
Pettine needs to grow some balls. Will they ever win a championship with Hoyer? No. Will they with Manziel? Probably not but probably not is way better than a definite no. Give Manziel enough rope to either hang himself or take the bull down... and be definitive about your decision.[/quote]

Exactly. I doubt Pettine did it either. It sounds ridiculous. The guy has actually gotten this team playing at a level I didn't expect. After the firing of Chudzinski and then the GM it looked like a very dysfunctional situation. I just think Pettine's been too loyal to the vet and tried too hard to teach Johnny some lessons and its cost them any realistic shot at the postseason now.

As for Johnny and the knocks on him as a pro some of the "midget" controversy reminds me of someone else. Someone very unconventional, short, athletic, with a good arm and the ability to throw on the run, make plays up out of nothing. Now there are obviously many areas where there is no similarity, extremely important areas like maturity, work ethic, moral fiber. Some of that is likely reality and some is likely perception. But both men are supremely confident in their own abilities. One is proven a hundred times over, one has everything to prove, but watching JM play purely as a QB and athlete the guy Manziel reminded me of the most is Wilson. He looks more reckless which might be his undoing, especially if he does many more of the missile dives into the end zone. But he's going to make some plays IMO.It should be fascinating.

[kalibane]

You are missing the point regarding the locker room poll. It's just an aside. The players didn't make the decision. He allegedly was approached by Joe Thomas, arguably the most respected player in the locker room, who more or less said, no one believes we can win with Manziel. After that he decided to collect info from some of his team leaders to gauge the accuracy of that conversation.

And yes I think any good coach would factor that into a decision if you don't see that Manziel hasn't been preparing diligently and/or has been just as bad or worse than Hoyer in practice.

Right now as far as we're concerned, Manziel is just a media construct, he has shown absolutely nothing in pre-season or his limited snaps in the regular season to indicate that he's ready to play at the NFL level. If he's just as bad in practice as he was in preseason, are you honestly suggesting that he should just throw Manziel out there to satisfy the fans and the media like John Fox did with Tebow and have the whole thing blow up in his face? And then the icing on the cake is you lose the locker room.

It's not the determining factor but a factor nonetheless.

[NorthHawk]

From what little I've seen from Manziel, he can only be a change of pace QB at the moment. I doubt he can sustain any success for the long haul at this point in his career. From what I've read he doesn't work hard enough off the field to progress to the point to be a continual starting QB. Who knows what the future holds for him, but right now, he isn't consistent enough to be the answer for the Browns.
Then again maybe he starts for the rest of the season and proves me wrong.

[HumanCockroach]

Do you think you'd ever see Carroll, Holmgren, Belicheck, or any HC worth his weight, poll the locker room in regards to any decision outside of chicken or fish for the post game banquet?
Pettine needs to grow some balls. Will they ever win a championship with Hoyer? No. Will they with Manziel? Probably not but probably not is way better than a definite no. Give Manziel enough rope to either hang himself or take the bull down... and be definitive about your decision.

Exactly. I doubt Pettine did it either. It sounds ridiculous. The guy has actually gotten this team playing at a level I didn't expect. After the firing of Chudzinski and then the GM it looked like a very dysfunctional situation. I just think Pettine's been too loyal to the vet and tried too hard to teach Johnny some lessons and its cost them any realistic shot at the postseason now.

As for Johnny and the knocks on him as a pro some of the "midget" controversy reminds me of someone else. Someone very unconventional, short, athletic, with a good arm and the ability to throw on the run, make plays up out of nothing. Now there are obviously many areas where there is no similarity, extremely important areas like maturity, work ethic, moral fiber. Some of that is likely reality and some is likely perception. But both men are supremely confident in their own abilities. One is proven a hundred times over, one has everything to prove, but watching JM play purely as a QB and athlete the guy Manziel reminded me of the most is Wilson. He looks more reckless which might be his undoing, especially if he does many more of the missile dives into the end zone. But he's going to make some plays IMO.It should be fascinating.[/quote]

Where did even allude to his height? I didn't, won't and could care less. If you see Wilson in Manziel, I would suggest YOU not I are fixated on height and mobility as the ONLY similar traits. Manziel to the best of my knowledge, and honestly I don't see any way in hell I could have missed it if I wanted to, has NOT done a thing on an NFL field worthy of note. Did Wilson? Hell yes he did, he tore the pre season a new A-hole, came into camp and FORCED his way into the discussion ( not handed to him like Manziel) and TOOK the job, and simply never looked back. Manziel has done NONE of that, has played poorly both in practice and on the field, has had to many off field episodes to list hear, spent his time getting drunk or high, instead of working to get on the field, and I'm supposed to be impressed, because he is short ( like Wilson) and can scramble ( like Wilson) but lacks numerous other FAR more important traits?

Pass.

What Manziel did in colledge means bupkis, now and in the future. Until I see him have SOME success of SOME kind on an NFL football field, I'll stick with what I have SEEN up to this point, no matter how enamored some, and the media are with Johnny Hype , I'm not swayed by media "heat" I'm swayed by ACTUAL play.

[BelizeHawk]

Looks like Manziel will start. We shall see. It has been a mixed bag for rookie QB's this year. Bridgewater has had his moments as had Carr, but for the most part they've all struggled. Manziel has talent around him though with Joe Thomas on the line and Josh Gordon to throw to.
Personally I think he will do well in the short run (the final 3 of this year) but have trouble as a full time starter.


I

[Hawktawk]

HC Marvin Lewis referred to Manziel as a "midget". Hes been backpedaling ever since.I'm waiting for the midget protests in front of the stadium. Goodell should issue a statement:-) it adds a little spice to this weekend match up unless Pettine decides to subject the league to another week of watching Hoyer. I'm well aware of JMs issues thus far. All I'm saying is his game shows some flashes of similarity to our guy and obviously his stature as well.

Im just trying to stir the pot a little to get through the week folks. Consensus here appears to be hes a worthless punk. I'm not sure about that. Punk? definitely in some ways. Worthless? That remains to be seen. Hes cocky which can be an asset or a curse.I think he can have some success in the league, ultimately its up to him and how hard he wants to achieve it.

[HumanCockroach]

ultimately its up to him and how hard he wants to achieve it.

Which IMHO is why he has continued to sit on the bench.

[Hawktawk]

You may be right. Perception isn't always reality. the truth lies somewhere in the middle most of the time. If JM isn't ready it will be obvious very soon and it wont be my first helping of crow if that winds up being the case. I think Shanahan will devise some plays that utilize Manziels strengths much as he did in RGIIIs initial season but the kid is going to have to execute or he will be another carcass on the scrap heap of 1st rounders who have failed in Cleveland. As I heard said today Cleveland needs to find out if Johnny is the guy for the future . They have already found out Hoyer is not.

[HumanCockroach]

So, even though the media, fans and everyone else seemd to think that Manziel is the guy that should be starting, your thought process is that the coach, players and FO is simply stubborn or stupid?? I really am curious, because while it may indeed a perception on my part ( and one by everyone saying he should start) WHY in the WORLD would a Wilson like QB be SITTING otherwise??

Logically speaking, that means not only is the staff stupid, but self destroying as well. Along with those that spent a first round pick on him. Makes ZERO sense in any way shape or form.

[Hawktawk]

I didnt say hes Wilson. My observation is that among pro QBs Wilson's game is the most like the snapshots Ive seen of Manziel in college and his limited opportunities in preseason and against Buffalo. IMO nobody is Wilson,although in the 2012 draft nobody thought Wilson would be Wilson enough to draft him before the 3rd round. Wilson's success probably helped Manziels stock, along with that of EJ Manuel and Geno Smith and probably some others.

As for Pettine,I think hes a veteran kind of coach. I respect the job hes done.Hes between a rock and a hard place with JM being drafted and the Gordon fiasco and they have definitely over performed.But its been the D for quite a while along with a good run game. Hoyer was acceptable till about midseason when he would play badly for much of the game then pull it out at the end. Lately he has been almost historically bad.I believe he is only one of a handful of guys ever to throw multiple picks in 3 straight games with no TD passes

Yeah I think Pettines been stubborn. If I were the coach Manziel would have started last game and who knows. I certainly would have inserted him into the game at some point for sure. I think Pettine was the only guy in the stadium or watching on TV that couldn't see how that thing was going to end up with Luck heating up and the offense welded to the AstroTurf. A couple first downs would have won the game.

Its a moot point now the kid is gonna start against a team whose head coach called him a midget in the national media. I think its priceless and should be a fun watch. If he gets stuffed so be it.

So, even though the media, fans and everyone else seemd to think that Manziel is the guy that should be starting, your thought process is that the coach, players and FO is simply stubborn or stupid?? I really am curious, because while it may indeed a perception on my part ( and one by everyone saying he should start) WHY in the WORLD would a Wilson like QB be SITTING otherwise??

Logically speaking, that means not only is the staff stupid, but self destroying as well. Along with those that spent a first round pick on him. Makes ZERO sense in any way shape or form.

before the 3rd round.

[HumanCockroach]

A couple first downs would have won the game.

I've watched the game as well, IMHO Hoyer MADE the throws at the end of the game to garner those first downs ( 4 drops by my count in the last 6 minutes alone by the Browns receivers) Manziel could have been incredible in that situation, and still failed.

I'll wait to see if he can be better than the crapola player he has been to this point. Being successful in college ( especially in an offense that had NO playbook, no checks, no audibles etc) means a whole lot of nothing, and honestly I'm not entirely sure how the comparison works, based on Wilson running a pro offense at both locations, while Manziel was running plays diagrammed in the dirt. Wilson can and does move, makes plays with his legs, and can indeed improvise. However he has shown an ability to NOT do that and indeed be successful at both levels, Manziel hasn't shown that ability to date, at EITHER level.

I have little doubt Wilsons success opened the door for Manziel, and there is little doubt in my mind, Johnny Hypeball owes Wilson a LOT both money wise and opportunity wise, but thinking that he is ready at this point seems pretty foolish to me. He has not shown an ounce of what Wilson had by this time his first year, and until the dude gets serious about the job of being a QB in the NFL, I will continue to view him as nothing more than a highly drafted sideshow.

Edit: MRob summed it up well for me when asked about the move. Basically, they have gone from playoff contender on Monday, to rebuilding mode on Tuesday, and if he was a player, focus and drive would be out the window. Or in other words, the team has thrown in the towel on the season with this move. Doesn't sound like an improvement to me.

Coach Billick said to watch the "doofus" plays, and then showed multiple from the Bills game you used as an example of a "spark". If I'm a fan of that team, I'm pissed.

[Hawktawk]

Well there it is. You are sure he will stink and Im not sure if he will or not. We will know pretty soon. Facts are Hoyer 29 drives 1 TD Manziel 2 drives one TD. I dont think it can get much doofier than 8 picks and 1 TD in 4 games, sorry. If it can its really going to be ugly because its brutal now.I gotta take your word for the drops I dont have the game recorded. I saw one down the sidelines Gordon could have had at the very end and one earlier he got his hands on but very poorly thrown. Hes not Odell Beckham for sure. But Hoyer missed enough throws that I did see (plus pick in the endzone) his ass would have been planted by halftime by some coaches.

[HumanCockroach]

I dont think it can get much doofier than 8 picks and 1 TD in 4 games, sorry.

Sure it can, and did In Manziels one garbage time appearance. Hell even on the one TD drive, he made a poor decision, threw it to a LB who had it go through his arms to the TE. Follow that up with botching a snap, that he attempted to make into a play in his own endzone that he fumbled for a Buffalo TD that was erroneously reversed to some odd form of tuck rule ( which doesn't exist any longer). More bad than good in his breif appearance. Hoyer has indeed played poorly, but typically a guy is given a chance to play OUT of the poor performances, glad Seattle FO is stupid enough to do something like this.

The guy hasn't had a single error free drive in the NFL, and somehow, even though he wasn't good enough to TRUMP Hoyer until this week based on your examples, I'm supposed to believe this is the right call ( especially when current and former players are agreeing with me, that this is indeed the "white flag" for the season) ? Nah, he won't get them into the playoffs ( something Hoyer very well may have done) and odds are he won't win a single game.

[HumanCockroach]

I dont think it can get much doofier than 8 picks and 1 TD in 4 games, sorry

??? Still think that? Currently Johnny Hypeball total yards passing 3, with a couple turnovers. Dude wasn't ready, and this is exactly the type of display I personally expected.

[kalibane]

Yeah Manziel was putrid. I had a suspicion they were hiding him this game all but confirms it. The Bengals did his little money fingers celebration about 25 times today.

[RiverDog]

Well there it is. You are sure he will stink and Im not sure if he will or not. We will know pretty soon. Facts are Hoyer 29 drives 1 TD Manziel 2 drives one TD. I dont think it can get much doofier than 8 picks and 1 TD in 4 games, sorry. If it can its really going to be ugly because its brutal now.I gotta take your word for the drops I dont have the game recorded. I saw one down the sidelines Gordon could have had at the very end and one earlier he got his hands on but very poorly thrown. Hes not Odell Beckham for sure. But Hoyer missed enough throws that I did see (plus pick in the endzone) his ass would have been planted by halftime by some coaches.

Yes, we know now. I guess Pettine wasn't so stupid after all.

[savvyman]

I remember watching Manziel tape on you tube and commenting on these boards that he would not be successful in the NFL because his arm is so weak and his speed would be neutralized by the equally fast (or faster) NFL defensive players.

I also posted at that time that Manziel owed Russell Wilson a lot of Money because only because of Wilson's success did any team think that a QB of Manziels Size and capability could also be successful in the NFL. (However Russell is physically stronger and thicker than Johnny and also has a significantly stronger arm)

The Manziel Story is still to be written mind you but Chapter One is completed and Johnny sucks pretty much as projected.

[obiken]

Hoyer is not the guy, but JFB is a little jerk, and will never be an NFL QB. I would have never taken Manzel, to begin with.

[Hawktawk]

He looked rough.Lots of rooks do but he has a bulls eye on him totally due to his personna.I thought he actually handled the post game press conference pretty well. We will see 2 more games barring injury but I'm eating the crow for today. Bad bad bad.

[HumanCockroach]

Johnny Putrid ( headline nickname, not mine) did exactly what he did in college in that game, ran around, and floated balls up into the secondary, and exactly what I said would happen when he was drafted, happened in that game, DB's went and took his floaters. Until he delivers a ball with authority, it is going to be a whole lot of games like that for the Browns and their fans. Sorry, sorry, sorry display of all the things not to do, and he kept making them as the game went on, same mistakes, that game, and from the pre season. If he can't learn, he can't play, that simple.

Bad decision to insert him during a playoff chase. Doomed the Browns to "developing" with one move.