Fly Sweep vs End Around

[I-5]

I've heard Percy's 2 big running plays in Superbowl XLVIII called a 'fly sweep' or a 'jet sweep'. I looked up the play on wiki, and what they did actually looks more like an end-around, the difference being the position of the receiver to the QB (the fly sweep has the receiver pass between the QB and center to take the ball, while the end-around has the receiver running behind the QB to take the ball). So which is it really?

Either way, it's a pretty scary play to defend when you have an elite player running it. Imagine as a defense, giving Percy Harvin a running head start behind the line of scrimmage, running to the opposite side, where a poor DB has to deal with the other receiver who is already lined up in front of him. They call these plays gimmick plays, but I could see them becoming fairly common in our offense, until it can be stopped.

[HumanCockroach]

I guess I would consider it a "gimmick" play, only because you can't run it consistently and have it be effective. Doesn't mean it can't be used, and used effectively, but it isn't something teams will use an extreme amount. Add in that not many teams have the players necessary to run the play, and you have a gimmick play.

Does not mean it can't or shouldn't be used by Seattle, because they do have the athletes necessary to hurt a defense with it. It will be interesting to see how often and how successful it is for Seattle next season...

[RiverDog]

That play has been around in one form or another for a long time, so I wouldn't call it a gadget. The version we ran with Harvin was much shallower and quick hitting than the end arounds and flanker reverses of years past, which is probably why they call it a 'jet' sweep. It gets Harvin to the edge very quickly, before the linebackers can react, and if the other WR can get a block on the cornerback, he has a good 10 yards of real estate. It's not a play you want to run into the teeth of a blitz, so I wouldn't advise it in 3rd and long. We used it on 2nd and 7 and it worked beautifully. I'm looking forward to seeing more of that play in the future. With Harvin's speed, he's the ideal player to run it.

[c_hawkbob]

I've heard Percy's 2 big running plays in Superbowl XLVIII called a 'fly sweep' or a 'jet sweep'. I looked up the play on wiki, and what they did actually looks more like an end-around, the difference being the position of the receiver to the QB (the fly sweep has the receiver pass between the QB and center to take the ball, while the end-around has the receiver running behind the QB to take the ball). So which is it really?

Either way, it's a pretty scary play to defend when you have an elite player running it. Imagine as a defense, giving Percy Harvin a running head start behind the line of scrimmage, running to the opposite side, where a poor DB has to deal with the other receiver who is already lined up in front of him. They call these plays gimmick plays, but I could see them becoming fairly common in our offense, until it can be stopped.

That and the fact that in general a sweep is never intended to look like anything but a running play. The Green Bay sweep (or "student body left or right") has a running back running the ball. The Jet sweep used a receiver. An End around is intended to look like a pass play with the QB dropping back to hand the ball off to the end.

I don't consider a sweep to be a gadget play BTW because it's not really a misdirection play like a reverse or a flea flicker for instance. The Jet sweep is just such a quick hitter that it looks like a misdirection.

[Hawkstar]

Whatever it is, the first time they ran it in SB XLVIII I had no idea where the ball was until Percy was 15 yards down field. I suspect with his speed the playbook is wide open to these types of plays.

[RiverDog]

Whatever it is, the first time they ran it in SB XLVIII I had no idea where the ball was until Percy was 15 yards down field. I suspect with his speed the playbook is wide open to these types of plays.

That's one of the advantages of running it shallow like that. With two sub 6' players handling the ball, they tend to get lost behind all those big linemen. If you had a hard time picking them out, imagine what a safety was seeing from his perspective at field level. Too close to the forest to see the trees.

[I-5]

Watching the all-22 film, on the first sweep play the defense had no idea who had the ball until Percy was already in the 2nd level. He is a ridiculous player to have on your team for plays like that.

[HumanCockroach]

I guess I am in the minority that considers a receiver running play a gadget or gimmick play, however you classify it however, with Harvin running it, it is an effective play, and will be interesting to watch it play out next season, as well as what they use off of it to confuse the defense. Lynch is also a serious threat should the defense flow to strongly to where Harvin is going.

[monkey]

I guess I watch too much Navy football to call it a gimmick or gadget play, but I guess I understand why it is sometimes called that.
What I really like about this particular play is how nicely it works with the read option, or triple option, or any kind of option.

[kalibane]

I will have to watch it again to confirm but replaying it in my mind there are more differences than just the position of the WR taking the hand off.

The end around is a longer developing misdirection play attempting to get the defense to key on the tailback. The line blocks down and the entire offense flows in one direction giving the appearance of a basic lead play (or similar). You get the ball fake to the tailback and you're hoping the defense follows the offenses motion and the tailback and crashes down (in the process losing contain on the WR looping around).

The Fly Sweep on the other hand (at least how the Hawks have run it) is still misdirection of a sort but they are attempting to give a pass look to take advantage of man coverage. They aren't trying to simulate the flow of a play to the other side though. They still block down but they allow penetration (pretty sure someone was unblocked on the long run, either a DT or blitzing inside LB) TE is trying to seal the edge and the WR is simulating a pattern, trying to run the corner off and block down field. Harvin goes in "motion" but instead gets the hand off and if the blockers do their job it leaves Harvin 1 v 1 vs. a safety who has to come down or a nickel back dragging across the formation with the motion. No play fake to the RB who either pretends to block or take a LB outside on a fake pattern.

The biggest advantage I see of the fly sweep over the end around and why I don't quite consider it a gadget, is you can run the same action with the same personel out of the same formation without calling the fly sweep and without terribly limiting the play calling. And you can run other plays off of it. For example Lynch's TD run against the Saints was helped largly by the defense having to respect the fly sweep action even though Percy never took the hand off. On the other hand if you run the same exact action off the end around without giving it to the WR you end up taking him out of the pattern and because you have to have your linemen fire out to sell the action there is a limited number of pass plays you can call.

[mykc14]

Its called a fly sweep because the type of motion used is called 'fly motion,' which is when the slot receiver motions across the formation and is around the qb when the ball is snapped, offering the opportunity for the ball to be handed off to him (in this motion he is the first point of action, either getting the ball or being faked to). It doesn't matter where the QB is lined up (under center, shotgun, pistol). This is often used in Zone blocking offenses because the fly motion makes the LB's freeze for a second and opens up running lanes for the RB. The 'End Around' typically is when the slot receiver motions across the formation and then the ball is snapped and faked to the RB first and then handed off to the end in motion. This type of motion is more commonly used in the NFL. In this motion the first point of action is between the RB and QB, not the receiver in motion. If the RB doesn't get the ball it is then given to the motion receiver or faked to him.

As far as terminology in football goes it isn't always definite. Some programs use the same words but they mean something totally different. I was an assistant for a coach whose number system was completely backwards (evens on the left and odds on the right). It was totally confusing and I hated it, but he was the head coach and thats how he did things. The point in these terms aren't exactly set in stone and one person may call a fly sweep and end around or vice versa. They are similar types of motion but its the point of action which defines them, IMO.

[Hawktawk]

I believe they ran the same play with Percy in the Saints playoff game to the other side.Its been run 3 times now and gained huge yards each time. A couple of thoughts are that#1 Russell Wilson makes a lot of good plays better due to his excellent ball handling and faking skills.He handed it off wraparound so fast it was almost impossible to see. The play looked like it is perfect to set up the read option to the opposite side of Harvins motion as well. #2 I wonder if the staff gave Harvin mostly running plays where he could see defenders coming and deliver the blow as opposed to making him a big part of the passing game where he would take more violent shots so soon after a concussion. Whatever it was it was sure fun to watch and makes me drool thinking about the potential.

[FolkCrusader]

I don't understand some of the comments here. The play as we ran it was certainly misdirection. Percy motions left. Beast (who is the read) goes right after the snap. The entire line zone blocks right except Zach Miller who reaches the end on the left side and tries but fails to get a block at the second level. The play results with Percy and two blockers on the outside, it's certainly misdirection.

[kalibane]

Just call out who you're talking about. I'm going to assume you mean my comments since I think I'm the only one who mentioned misdirection. You might want to go back and reread. I didn't say there was no misdirection.

"The Fly Sweep on the other hand (at least how the Hawks have run it) is still misdirection of a sort".

It's not the classic misdirection play that most people think of when you use the word. The fly sweep that the Hawks run is trying to sell a pass play, not a run play to Marshawn Lynch. What Lynch does on the play is almost inconsequential, except to set up a future play where they theorhetically get the defense to key on Percy's motion and hand off the ball to Lynch instead. They are trying to suck a man defense inside not necessarily to crash down on a RB going the opposite direction. Even the Offensive Tackles line up a step off the LOS in a two point stance (a pass look).

Zach Miller chips the defensive end and then moves down field which holds the strong safety while Baldwin simulates a pattern getting his DB to turn and run before starting to block. Terrence Knighton is left completely unblocked. On an end around you want those defensive linemen crashing down at the tailback you don't turn them loose to come up field because they'll wreck a long developing end around in the backfield. Zach Miller would have stayed in to help seal the left edge.

Classic misdirection is built around getting the entire defense flowing one way when your play is going the opposite. That isn't the goal here. They don't care about the Strong Safety the Right defensive end or the NT. The goal here is to invite penetration to suck the defense inside and get Percy in space with a one on one matchup vs. a Safety or LB.

[Zorn76]

However you look at it, it works, lol.

Man, if Percy can stay healthy next season - and that's a Big If - it would go such a long way for our chances of repeating.

And extra 1st down, or two, means burning another 3-5 minutes of game clock per, to say nothing of the fact that our scoring will most certainly trend upward with him in the lineup full time.

It would also mean giving an already young and tenacious D:) more rest, making them that much more effective. For as little as Harvin played this past season, he ended up making an appreciable difference, and had a lot to do with us winning our first Lombardi trophy.

[RiverDog]

They still block down but they allow penetration (pretty sure someone was unblocked on the long run, either a DT or blitzing inside LB)

I'll have to re-watch that play, but it seems to me that it was ran so shallow that they couldn't afford to leave a player unblocked. Russell handed the ball off to Harvin running parallel to and just a few yards behind the LOS. Any penetration would have disrupted the timing of the play. It seemed like the object was to get him to the corner as quickly as possible before the defense had a chance to react.

[kalibane]

Watch it again Riv. It's actually because it's so shallow in combination with the pre-snap motion that they were able to leave someone unblocked. They completely turned Knighton loose and the DE was only chipped but it didn't matter because Percy with a running start is way too fast to the edge.

[RiverDog]

Watch it again Riv. It's actually because it's so shallow in combination with the pre-snap motion that they were able to leave someone unblocked. They completely turned Knighton loose and the DE was only chipped but it didn't matter because Percy with a running start is way too fast to the edge.

Yea, you're right. I just re-watched it. Kinghton was completely unblocked and didn't even see him. Harvin was past him almost by the time he got the handoff. I'm pretty bad about noticing stuff like that until I watch the play 3 or 4 times.

But take a look at the big ass on that Knighton dude. He's not the penetrating, break up plays in the backfield type DT, more of a plug meant to occupy blockers. I don't think we leave a DT like Justin Smith unblocked on a play like that.

I loved the play. It's low risk as Harvin gets the ball on an immediate handoff, no pitches or passes, so in that sense, I wouldn't call it a gadget. It was a great job of Bevell and our staff of identifying a play that would get Harvin in the open field without having to risk something like a backwards pass like we did later in the game (God, I hate those plays!).

[HumanCockroach]

When did they attempt a backwards pass with Harvin? You mean the bubble screen that was thrown forward? I don't care for those either, but Harvin is the perfect receiver to use that play on. Going to be a lot of those in the future, probably should get used to them.

[NorthHawk]

If I remember correctly, if Harvin had to step 3 yards deeper after getting the ball, he still could have got to the edge.
The DT would have had to charge straight upfield and since they were keying on Lynch, he didn't.

It does look funny to see the DT standing there looking into the backfield and Harvin about 10 yards past him.
I suspect the next step in this play's evolution is to fake to Harvin and when the DT goes after him, give it to Lynch to run through the hole.

[THX-1138]

I'm no great expert or anything, but the moment I saw Harvin turn at the line of scrimmage and head inside toward RW I knew he was getting the ball (saw him do that to NO). Of course I realize that I was seated comfortably in front of a big TV with an unobstructed view so I had a better chance of reading the play. Safeties and LB's don't have a chance, though, with those two "under-statured" players. Harvin is so knee-breakingly fast that the play is developed before the D knows there is a play. Gah my mouth waters at the prospect of all the tricky, speedy, sneaky ways he could be used next year. He is a fragile beastie so using him sparingly is the key in my book. Keep him on the field as much as possible but use him as a decoy. A lot. Look at the wear and tear he took off of Lynch. Look at how he opened up the game for the receivers.

And I want to thank all of you for the great analysis and the education in the verbiage of that "end around, fly sweep, jet sweep" play. I frankly didn't know exactly what the difference was between them. I just knew that what Harvin was doing was way shallower to the LOS than your garden variety sweep or end around. That simultaneous snap/spin/hand off looked like butter.

[RiverDog]

When did they attempt a backwards pass with Harvin? You mean the bubble screen that was thrown forward? I don't care for those either, but Harvin is the perfect receiver to use that play on. Going to be a lot of those in the future, probably should get used to them.

Yea, I meant bubble or WR screen. The one we ran in the 2nd quarter that Denver challenged. I knew it was not thrown backwards, even had enough confidence that I used the opportunity to drain my bladder. Bad challenge on their part. But nevertheless, I hate those plays because of the risk of throwing a backwards pass.

[kalibane]

I don't know Riv. Justin Smith isn't a violent penetrator either his specialty is occupying two blockers so the LBs can fly around. The guy you need to worry about is Aldon Smith. They would probably block it a bit differently because of the different defensive front (3/4) or maybe they don't run it at all since the 9ers are so good at diagnosing plays and so fast at LB but I don't think the difference is in Justin Smith and Knighton.

Sometime the best way to block someone is to not block them at all. Provided everyone knows he'll be unblocked.

[RiverDog]

I don't know Riv. Justin Smith isn't a violent penetrator either his specialty is occupying two blockers so the LBs can fly around. The guy you need to worry about is Aldon Smith. They would probably block it a bit differently because of the different defensive front (3/4) or maybe they don't run it at all since the 9ers are so good at diagnosing plays and so fast at LB but I don't think the difference is in Justin Smith and Knighton.

Sometime the best way to block someone is to not block them at all. Provided everyone knows he'll be unblocked.

Justin Smith is a little more savvy than Knighton IMO. The guy's more experienced and can sniff out plays like that and doesn't often get fooled as badly as Knighton did. He'd have one eye on Harvin if he's coming in motion towards him and that close to the LOS. Whether or not he would have been close enough to disrupt the play, I dunno.

In any event, we had the right play called against Denver's defense. My point was that I'm not sure that play would work against all defenses, and my first thought naturally was the Niner defense.

[Eaglehawk]

I don't know Riv. Justin Smith isn't a violent penetrator either his specialty is occupying two blockers so the LBs can fly around. The guy you need to worry about is Aldon Smith. They would probably block it a bit differently because of the different defensive front (3/4) or maybe they don't run it at all since the 9ers are so good at diagnosing plays and so fast at LB but I don't think the difference is in Justin Smith and Knighton.

Sometime the best way to block someone is to not block them at all. Provided everyone knows he'll be unblocked.

Justin Smith is a little more savvy than Knighton IMO. The guy's more experienced and can sniff out plays like that and doesn't often get fooled as badly as Knighton did. He'd have one eye on Harvin if he's coming in motion towards him and that close to the LOS. Whether or not he would have been close enough to disrupt the play, I dunno.

In any event, we had the right play called against Denver's defense. My point was that I'm not sure that play would work against all defenses, and my first thought naturally was the Niner defense.

The reason why we haven't scored much the last two times against the Niners is that they have figured out our offense.
I think we would almost bring a new playbook for the Niners when we play them so that they do not blow up plays.

Or show them plays then reverse it the next game. I hope that someone knocks off the Niners early from contention during the playoffs. Hopefully. Then I can see a clear path to the SB next year as well.

[RiverDog]

The reason why we haven't scored much the last two times against the Niners is that they have figured out our offense.
I think we would almost bring a new playbook for the Niners when we play them so that they do not blow up plays.

Or show them plays then reverse it the next game. I hope that someone knocks off the Niners early from contention during the playoffs. Hopefully. Then I can see a clear path to the SB next year as well.

We're going to have a tough row to hoe in order to get back to the SB. We have division champs Carolina and Philly, playoff teams in San Diego and Kansas City, all on the road, not to mention the challenges we face within our own division, which is recognized by nearly everyone as the toughest in the league. I'm not trying to be Debbie Downer, but repeating is going to be a lot tougher than most people realize.

Rams get what, two Top 10 or Top 15 draft choices this season?