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As a team, things are starting to come together. Since losing in overtime to the Rams, we've won our last 4 straight games, our defense is healthy and starting to gel, Geno has gone two straight games without throwing a pick and played nearly flawlessly yesterday, posting a passer rating of 110.1, the offensive line, although still a weak link, helped keep Geno from not taking so much as a single sack yesterday and paved the way for one of our best rushing performances of the season despite the loss of our top RB. The team looks primed for a solid playoff run, perhaps needs to be looked at as a legitimate threat along with teams like the Lions, Eagles, Packers, and Vikings.

But what the hell has happened to DK Metcalf? Some in here have said that they believe him to be HOF bound, yet he's been almost nonexistent for the last two months and counting. Yesterday, he caught just 4 passes for 49 yards and no TD's. In the past 7 games, he's caught just one TD pass, is barely averaging 4 catches and 64 yards per game despite the fact that he's averaging more targets per game than any other Seahawk receiver. Sure, he's made a few nice catches here and there, but so do a lot of very ordinary receivers, and this guy is supposed to be special. JSN has replaced him as our top producing receiver.

Seattle Seahawks wide receiver DK Metcalf finished second on the team in targets with six in Week 14. He only caught four passes for 49 yards. Metcalf has historically not had the best games against the Arizona Cardinals and that continued in Week 14. Seattle's passing game continues to run primarily through fellow wide receiver Jaxon Smith-Njigba. Metcalf has not exceeded 70 receiving yards or caught a touchdown since Week 7.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/footba ... ngNewsVerp

Metcalf has had to deal with a few minor injuries, missed two games due to a knee injury, but nothing serious, at least not so as any of us can detect. But at some point, one has to start asking the question posed in the thread title and come up with a reasonable explanation. Is it a problem with our OC not coming up with a scheme to take advantage of his incredible physical skills? Is it a problem with our quarterback? Is Metcalf not putting out the effort? Have defenses been taking him away by double teaming him?

These last 4 games plus the playoffs are going to make a big difference in how we approach Metcalf during the offseason.

This is just my take on it. I don't think how DK is being used is an issue at this time. He helps a lot in the run blocking game. He has suffered two separate injuries in a short span, and regardless if they are minor or not, he is showing some guts going out there and trying to help his team win. Like I have mentioned before, expensive decoy or not, but when he is on the field the entire defense has to account for him, and his presence has opened the game up for JSN in the slot, and these tunnel screens for our RBs and TEs. Would we like more spectacular downfield bombs from DK, well would could have one if we would have snapped the ball .5 sec quicker and hit DK with one on one coverage. I don't feel anything is wrong with DK or Grubb using him at this time. If we are winning, and even if we are winning ugly, I will take it If dk averages 3 catches a game and no TDS and we are winning, I will take it every week.

DK won't reach his former heights unless we get a deep passing QB.

Geno seems to be preferring JSN for the dink and dunk. JSN is built for that style of offense. Great route runner. Sure hands. He's much better for the dink and dunk game.

DK gets the other team's best corner every time. Which is what we've seen for years between Tyler and DK and now JSN and DK. Whoever gets the best coverage usually has a better day. It shifts back and forth. I imagine soon JSN will get enough respect they'll have to shade the coverage over to JSN opening things up for DK. At the moment teams still know to shade the better coverage to DK.

Since Geno is terrible at throwing deep. You can't just throw a go route working the short and deep parts of the field to stretch things.

It isn't going to be fixed until we get a better QB.

So you have a multi-factor issue:
1. DK getting the strongest coverage with Tyler non-existent and JSN a second year guy.

2. Geno can't throw deep well, so DK can't use his speed and size to dominate the deep ball.

3. JSN was built for the dink and dunk West Coast style of play and is coming into his own.

4. DK on the field still opens things up for JSN by drawing coverage.

You should be asking why Tyler Lockett has pretty much disappeared from the offense. He's likely gone at the end of the year. Geno doesn't even notice Tyler any longer or Tyler is never open.

Aseahawkfan wrote:DK won't reach his former heights unless we get a deep passing QB.

Geno seems to be preferring JSN for the dink and dunk. JSN is built for that style of offense. Great route runner. Sure hands. He's much better for the dink and dunk game.

Since Geno is terrible at throwing deep. You can't just throw a go route working the short and deep parts of the field to stretch things.

What! Geno is terrible at throwing deep? I am not saying Geno is best in the league, but I believe he is top 10 when it comes to middle to deep passes. He leads the league in passing yards for a reason, and this is behind a porous OL that can't pass block consistently.

Against the Cards, he put that ball perfectly where it needed to be on that Lockett TD pass against good coverage, and Lockett couldn't bring it in. Would have been a great toss and catch.

JSN isn't just regulated to dink and dunk, he has opened his game up tremendously and has some deep route catches. However, JSN is a weapon in open space and we should use his shiftiness to create after the catch

I don't agree all that Geno is a terrible deep ball thrower. It all boils down to have a stellar offensive line, and that will have to wait till next year or the year after. A top tier offensive line will help any QB back there complete deep shots or not and DK would be getting his stats.

Aseahawkfan wrote:DK won't reach his former heights unless we get a deep passing QB.

Geno seems to be preferring JSN for the dink and dunk. JSN is built for that style of offense. Great route runner. Sure hands. He's much better for the dink and dunk game.

Since Geno is terrible at throwing deep. You can't just throw a go route working the short and deep parts of the field to stretch things.

4XPIPS wrote:What! Geno is terrible at throwing deep? I am not saying Geno is best in the league, but I believe he is top 10 when it comes to middle to deep passes. He leads the league in passing yards for a reason, and this is behind a porous OL that can't pass block consistently.

Against the Cards, he put that ball perfectly where it needed to be on that Lockett TD pass against good coverage, and Lockett couldn't bring it in. Would have been a great toss and catch.

JSN isn't just regulated to dink and dunk, he has opened his game up tremendously and has some deep route catches. However, JSN is a weapon in open space and we should use his shiftiness to create after the catch

I don't agree all that Geno is a terrible deep ball thrower. It all boils down to have a stellar offensive line, and that will have to wait till next year or the year after. A top tier offensive line will help any QB back there complete deep shots or not and DK would be getting his stats.

It's hard for us fans, watching only on TV and unable to see the big picture, ie the coverages, exactly what it is that is preventing Metcalf from producing more, but I don't get the sense that Geno is a major part of the problem. His deep ball might not be as pretty as Russell's, not as much of a trajectory as Russ's rainbow passes, part of which Russell had to develop to compensate for his lower launch point, but I don't see anything wrong with Geno's deep ball.

I do think that part of the problem is that we don't put Metcalf in motion enough. The biggest strategy defenses like to use against him is to jamb him at the LOS and prevent him from getting a clean release onto his route and putting him in motion more would help avoid a lot of that. It also partially explains why Metcalf both draws and commits more penalties. But there's a reason why we don't put Metcalf in motion very often: Due to his big, muscle-bound frame, he's not elusive enough to be a threat to run a jet sweep, a reverse, or bubble screen. He's not as versatile as Lockett and certainly not as versatile as JSN.

I don't have a solution, but I do think what I've said represents at least part of the problem.

4XPIPS wrote:What! Geno is terrible at throwing deep? I am not saying Geno is best in the league, but I believe he is top 10 when it comes to middle to deep passes. He leads the league in passing yards for a reason, and this is behind a porous OL that can't pass block consistently.

Against the Cards, he put that ball perfectly where it needed to be on that Lockett TD pass against good coverage, and Lockett couldn't bring it in. Would have been a great toss and catch.

JSN isn't just regulated to dink and dunk, he has opened his game up tremendously and has some deep route catches. However, JSN is a weapon in open space and we should use his shiftiness to create after the catch

I don't agree all that Geno is a terrible deep ball thrower. It all boils down to have a stellar offensive line, and that will have to wait till next year or the year after. A top tier offensive line will help any QB back there complete deep shots or not and DK would be getting his stats.

Geno isn't a great deep ball thrower for go routes which is what I'm talking about. You can see he isn't. He can't throw the deep balls that makes a player like DK shine like Stafford made Megatron shine and Russ made DK shine when he was in his prime.

At any given time, there are only a handful of QBs that can throw the deep ball. There are even fewer times when you have a QB that can throw an accurate deep ball combined with a receiver who can run fast enough and catch the deep ball on the run. It's a rare combination we had when Russ was in his prime with DK.

Maybe in Miami they do this when Tua is healthy. Maybe Stafford on the Rams can still launch it. But Geno cannot launch like Russ or Stafford in their prime to let DK just run the ball down on a 40 or 50 yard go route taking the top off.

Geno is ok throwing middle routes. When I say deep, I mean those deep go routes you saw Russ launching in his prime. Those are the routes that make a player like DK or Megatron or a Randy Moss shine. It's so rare for the right QB combined with a receiver of that type to combine. We had that for a very short time with Prime Russ and DK. I was always disappointed we couldn't find a DK at the start of Russ's career and Pete spent years trying to find DK, then when he finally gets him the rest of the team fell off including Russ.

I've seen this combination only a few times in recent times.

Stafford and Megatron

Brady and Moss

Russ and DK for about a year or two.

Even Peyton Manning wasn't a great deep ball thrower. That's how rare that combination is. Even if you're top 10 in deep passes, you still aren't close to that rare combination of an elite WR with the long ball combined with an elite QB who can throw the go route accurately.

If DK is to shine again, we need that rare, accurate deep ball passer. Otherwise, I'd rather trade him and look for another Tyler or JSN if DK's expected to thrive as a regular WR. That isn't where his game shines.

They have been using DK mostly as a coverage sponge. Defenses still fear him, and account for it with brackets and zone rolls.

One of the reason's why JSN is on fire is he is eating in 1-on-1, especially against zone. Teams have to account for DK, and Geno has been smart to look at JSN more.

I also don't think he is 100% healthy after his knee injury.

One thing for sure, WR is a sneaky need after the season. I think Lockett is gone (might retire, but if not we can't keep him). He has a $30 mil cap hit and we have cap issues, and he just isn't worth that money anymore, sadly.

Without Lockett, we have DK-JSN. Bobo is in witness protection this season, so I don't know if he is a legit #3. We probably need to consider a vet WR signing or drafting one. We really need a dynamic TE threat as well.

Irish Greg 2.0 wrote:They have been using DK mostly as a coverage sponge. Defenses still fear him, and account for it with brackets and zone rolls.

One of the reason's why JSN is on fire is he is eating in 1-on-1, especially against zone. Teams have to account for DK, and Geno has been smart to look at JSN more.

I also don't think he is 100% healthy after his knee injury.

One thing for sure, WR is a sneaky need after the season. I think Lockett is gone (might retire, but if not we can't keep him). He has a $30 mil cap hit and we have cap issues, and he just isn't worth that money anymore, sadly.

Without Lockett, we have DK-JSN. Bobo is in witness protection this season, so I don't know if he is a legit #3. We probably need to consider a vet WR signing or drafting one. We really need a dynamic TE threat as well.

i agree with everything you say, but I do believe AJ Barner is going to take the next step. His game is growing week after week, and he could be that dynamic-do-it-all TE we need going forward. I can see Noah Fant gone as well, as he hardly ever plays a full season due to injuries. Pharoh Brown is just insurance, but I definitely seeing AJ Barner getting better and better. The way he trucked that defender for a 1st down in the Cards game got the sideline going nutz!

Irish Greg 2.0 wrote:They have been using DK mostly as a coverage sponge. Defenses still fear him, and account for it with brackets and zone rolls.

One of the reason's why JSN is on fire is he is eating in 1-on-1, especially against zone. Teams have to account for DK, and Geno has been smart to look at JSN more.

I also don't think he is 100% healthy after his knee injury.

One thing for sure, WR is a sneaky need after the season. I think Lockett is gone (might retire, but if not we can't keep him). He has a $30 mil cap hit and we have cap issues, and he just isn't worth that money anymore, sadly.

Without Lockett, we have DK-JSN. Bobo is in witness protection this season, so I don't know if he is a legit #3. We probably need to consider a vet WR signing or drafting one. We really need a dynamic TE threat as well.

4XPIPS wrote:I agree with everything you say, but I do believe AJ Barner is going to take the next step. His game is growing week after week, and he could be that dynamic-do-it-all TE we need going forward. I can see Noah Fant gone as well, as he hardly ever plays a full season due to injuries. Pharoh Brown is just insurance, but I definitely seeing AJ Barner getting better and better. The way he trucked that defender for a 1st down in the Cards game got the sideline going nutz!

Metcalf wasn't performing that well before his injury, so that excuse comes up a little short of explaining the entire season. I do agree that he brings a dimension to the game that doesn't show up in the stat columns in that he demands attention on every play he's in on. But every number one receiver in the league, the Justin Jeffersons and the JaMar Chases, get the same attention that Metcalf does, and they seem to produce. Remember, according to some, this guy is supposed to be HOF material.

River Dog wrote:Metcalf wasn't performing that well before his injury, so that excuse comes up a little short of explaining the entire season. I do agree that he brings a dimension to the game that doesn't show up in the stat columns in that he demands attention on every play he's in on. But every number one receiver in the league, the Justin Jeffersons and the JaMar Chases, get the same attention that Metcalf does, and they seem to produce. Remember, according to some, this guy is supposed to be HOF material.

What are you talking about, man? He's well on his way to Hall of Fame production. This guy has 46 TDs and is averaging a 1000 plus yards a year. This is with Geno Smith as his QB and Russ while starting out playing for Pete Carroll, a notoriously low volume passing head coach. His TD production dropped off since Russ left, but that's more about Geno than D.K.

We're wasting a damn amazing receiver not being able to find a better QB to utilize his talents. I don't enjoy watching it. It's annoying to have a guy like D.K. on the team and have a backup that people talk up like he's some great starter because his stats make him 10th at this or that garbage. Eye test is clear that Geno isn't great in the red zone and isn't a great QB. Dude is holding back our receiving corps.

Even with a backup QB elevated to starter throwing to him, he's still averaging a 1000 yards a year and 8 TDs or so.

Chase has Joe Burrow throwing to him. And Justin has Kirk Cousins.

Get a better QB and then you'll see D.K. and JSN show where they really stand. No position in the NFL is more reliant on QB play than WR. Our lack of a high quality QB has really hurt our WR production.

I don't care how many stats they post about Geno or talk him up or what I hear about this guy, he's no top quality QB and not a Super Bowl QB. Get someone better, then you'll see what D.K. and JSN can do.

River Dog wrote:Metcalf wasn't performing that well before his injury, so that excuse comes up a little short of explaining the entire season. I do agree that he brings a dimension to the game that doesn't show up in the stat columns in that he demands attention on every play he's in on. But every number one receiver in the league, the Justin Jeffersons and the JaMar Chases, get the same attention that Metcalf does, and they seem to produce. Remember, according to some, this guy is supposed to be HOF material.

Aseahawkfan wrote:What are you talking about, man? He's well on his way to Hall of Fame production. This guy has 46 TDs and is averaging a 1000 plus yards a year. This is with Geno Smith as his QB and Russ while starting out playing for Pete Carroll, a notoriously low volume passing head coach. His TD production dropped off since Russ left, but that's more about Geno than D.K.

Only a Seahawk homer would think that DK Metcalf is HOF material. In his 5 seasons, he hasn't come close to leading the league in any of the 3 major receiving categories: Receptions, receiving yards, or touchdowns, and he won't again this year. In 2020, his best statistical season when Russ was pitching the ball to him, Metcalf ranked 7th in receiving yards, 19th in receptions, and 8th in TD's. In an age when passing is the name of the game, his 6144 career receiving yards over 5+ seasons ranks in 213th on the all-time list. There are 28 active receivers ahead of him. His post season performances aren't anything to write home about, no rings or SB appearances and has played in just 5 playoff games. In what will be 6 seasons, roughly 45-50% of his expected career, Metcalf had been to the Pro Bowl twice and selected as an All Pro just once.

And before you say it, HOF candidates are heavily judged on their stat line, PB appearances, All Pro selections, and post season performances, and Metcalf just doesn't have what it takes. There are at least 10 active receivers that would be considered for a gold jacket before he would. I doubt that Metcalf will ever be inducted into the Seahawks ROH let alone the HOF. It's truly laughable to think of him as a HOF candidate at this point in his career. That's not disrespecting him as Metcalf is a very good receiver, and as has been pointed out, brings an element to the game that doesn't appear in the box score. But I wouldn't put him in the top 5 active receivers and obviously isn't in the top ten in statistical production. There's a lot of great receivers out there.

Aseahawkfan wrote:We're wasting a damn amazing receiver not being able to find a better QB to utilize his talents. I don't enjoy watching it. It's annoying to have a guy like D.K. on the team and have a backup that people talk up like he's some great starter because his stats make him 10th at this or that garbage. Eye test is clear that Geno isn't great in the red zone and isn't a great QB. Dude is holding back our receiving corps.

Even with a backup QB elevated to starter throwing to him, he's still averaging a 1000 yards a year and 8 TDs or so.

Chase has Joe Burrow throwing to him. And Justin has Kirk Cousins.

Get a better QB and then you'll see D.K. and JSN show where they really stand. No position in the NFL is more reliant on QB play than WR. Our lack of a high quality QB has really hurt our WR production.

I don't care how many stats they post about Geno or talk him up or what I hear about this guy, he's no top quality QB and not a Super Bowl QB. Get someone better, then you'll see what D.K. and JSN can do.

I agree with most of that, although I'd go a little softer on Geno. I don't think you can blame Metcalf's lack of production on him, at least not as much as you're claiming it is. You can make the argument you're making about Metcalf with 3/4 of the wide receivers in the league.

Aseahawkfan wrote:Even with a backup QB elevated to starter throwing to him, he's still averaging a 1000 yards a year and 8 TDs or so.

BFD. DJ Moore, not widely thought of as a HOF candidate, is averaging 1k yards for his career, too, and what quarterbacks has he played with? Teddy Bridgewater? Sam Darnold? Justin Fields? Come on, man!

Look at DK's stats vs any half dozen HOF receivers you'd care to over the first 5 years of their careers. Only you seem to think it's a stretch to call him HOF material. Here are his vs two HOFers with his same body type.

player - receptions - yards - tds

DK Metcalf ------ 372 5332 43
Terrell Owens -- 319 4758 43
Calvin Johnson -  366 5872 49

c_hawkbob wrote:Look at DK's stats vs any half dozen HOF receivers you'd care to over the first 5 years of their careers. Only you seem to think it's a stretch to call him HOF material. Here are his vs two HOFers with his same body type.

player - receptions - yards - tds

DK Metcalf ------ 372 5332 43
Terrell Owens -- 319 4758 43
Calvin Johnson -  366 5872 49

So, now we're going to make comparisons of wide receivers based on their body type? Do you seriously think that HOF voters use that as a criterion?

But since you brought it up, here's TO's HOF resume:

5× First-team All-Pro (2000–2002, 2004, 2007)
6× Pro Bowl (2000–2004, 2007)
3× NFL receiving touchdowns leader (2001, 2002, 2006)
NFL 2000s All-Decade Team

And Calvin Johnson:

3× First-team All-Pro (2011–2013)
Second-team All-Pro (2010)
6× Pro Bowl (2010–2015)
2× NFL receiving yards leader (2011, 2012)
NFL receptions leader (2012)
NFL receiving touchdowns co-leader (2008)
NFL 2010s All-Decade Team

Metcalf has 2 Pro Bowls, 1 All Pro selection, and has never close to having led the league in any major statistical category. Based on that, if he's to make the 2020 All Decade team, he's going to have to kick it up a couple notches in the next 5 years.

As I said before, as far as wide receivers go, HOF candidates are judged on their statistical performance, Pro Bowl appearances, All Pro selections, and post season performances including rings, and Metcalf has a long, long ways to go. He' also plays for the Seahawks, not the Cowboys.

You're still insisting on comparing lifetime body's of work vs a work in progress and obstinately not even considering anything that doesn't suit your narrative.

I don't know if his knee injury is lingering and it's affecting his performance, but the focus on JSN is impacting the number of chances for DK and it's understandable if the OC is going with the hot hand in JSN/Geno combination.
As to why his performance was off early? I think every players performance was off early as they accustomed themselves to the new Offense and it's philosophies along with each players responsibilities. As they worked out the kinks,
he started to do a little better. It might be like Greg said that he is used as a bit of a decoy more than in previous years and it's opening up JSN and to a lesser extent others as options. Maybe as teams start to see JSN as the primary threat,
DK will again become the primary target as teams can't double all of the receivers on every play. One of them will get 1 on 1 coverage and that's the goal. Providing DK is healthy enough to take advantage of it.

c_hawkbob wrote:You're still insisting on comparing lifetime body's of work vs a work in progress and obstinately not even considering anything that doesn't suit your narrative.

The difference in our arguments is that I'm comparing Metcalf's current resume and career as it stands now with that of other HOF wide receivers, criterion that we know HOF voters look at and is based in facts, not an opinion. The "work in progress" you are referring to is pure speculation, your personal opinion.

NorthHawk wrote:I don't know if his knee injury is lingering and it's affecting his performance, but the focus on JSN is impacting the number of chances for DK and it's understandable if the OC is going with the hot hand in JSN/Geno combination.
As to why his performance was off early? I think every players performance was off early as they accustomed themselves to the new Offense and it's philosophies along with each players responsibilities. As they worked out the kinks,
he started to do a little better. It might be like Greg said that he is used as a bit of a decoy more than in previous years and it's opening up JSN and to a lesser extent others as options. Maybe as teams start to see JSN as the primary threat,
DK will again become the primary target as teams can't double all of the receivers on every play. One of them will get 1 on 1 coverage and that's the goal. Providing DK is healthy enough to take advantage of it.

Good post, and I mostly agree.

I would like to see us put Metcalf in motion a little more often, keep him from getting jammed at the LOS.

I agree about the motion. I've always been a big proponent of doing that on pass plays. Anything to get even the slightest advantage.

NFL Live (on right now where I live) is doing an excellent job of breaking down how our offense is so hard to stop when we isolate DK on one side and bunch the other side and run plays for Charbonnet, JSN or a TE. And there is always one of them open on a simple read for Geno because DK is freezing the Safety to his side of the field, thereby eliminating 2 defenders from every play. And it works because if they don't leave a safety over the top on DK's side Geno will try him 1 on 1 deep every time. And it only works if you've got a DK Metcalf wide to the single side. You way undervalue him Riv, but the rest of the NFL don't.

c_hawkbob wrote:NFL Live (on right now where I live) is doing an excellent job of breaking down how our offense is so hard to stop when we isolate DK on one side and bunch the other side and run plays for Charbonnet, JSN or a TE. And there is always one of them open on a simple read dor Geno because DK is freezing the Safety to his side of the field, thereby eliminating 2 defenders from every play. And it works because if they don't leave a safety over the top on DK's side Geno will try him 1 on 1 deep every time. And it only works if you've got a DK Metcalf wide to the single side. You way undervalue him Riv, but the rest of the NFL don't.

Honest question: Are we the only team that utilizes their #1 receiver in a similar fashion as we are with Metcalf? I have no way of knowing, but my sense is that there's a lot of teams who use their #1 receiver as we are with Metcalf.

And I don't think I'm undervaluing him. I was asking why there was a lack of production, ie injuries, defensive adjustments, etc. The discussion turned to HOF credentials, which I don't think he has and has caused you to think that I undervalue him. What we seem to be doing with him is working, ie we are winning games, so frankly, I don't care if Metcalf catches another pass again so long as we "just win, baby!"

River Dog wrote:
Honest question: Are we the only team that utilizes their #1 receiver in a similar fashion as we are with Metcalf? I have no way of knowing, but my sense is that there's a lot of teams who use their #1 receiver as we are with Metcalf.

And I don't think I'm undervaluing him. I was asking why there was a lack of production, ie injuries, defensive adjustments, etc. The discussion turned to HOF credentials, which I don't think he has and has caused you to think that I undervalue him. What we seem to be doing with him is working, ie we are winning games, so frankly, I don't care if Metcalf catches another pass again so long as we "just win, baby!"

it is also worth noting that some WRs are having high stats while being on a losing team. J Chase is tearing it up, but the Bengals are losing, and in most cases you are playing from behind and the offense has to shoot it out through the air to score quickly, and there fore it pads his stats.

I am not going to bother to discuss if DK is HOF bound or not, it's a moot point right now. Like you said it's about winning. We have toned down our offense from how we started the season, which we deployed the "sugar huddle" or the hurry up, which ever you want to phrase it at. We have now gone back to complementary football. Our offense is more ball control, and we are snapping the ball closer to the end of the play clock, which in some cases bit us on a few plays as we have to burn a few TOs or take a DoG penalty cause of it.

Whatever... bottom line in the last two games we are playing mistake free, winning football(from the offense). Early in the season DK was trying to do too much and got caught on a few holding penalties, or fumbling the ball trying to do too much. Since then he hasn't done much of holding(at least that has been called) and has protected the ball.

I am perfectly fine with the trajectory of how he is deployed and used, and if we win that is all that matters.

River Dog wrote:BFD. DJ Moore, not widely thought of as a HOF candidate, is averaging 1k yards for his career, too, and what quarterbacks has he played with? Teddy Bridgewater? Sam Darnold? Justin Fields? Come on, man!

There's no real way to settle this. Calvin Johnson is a Hall of Fame receiver. Played with Matthew Stafford throwing to him. Played 9 years. 11,619 yards in 9 years or 1291 yards a season. He has 83 TDs or 9 TDs a year.

Put DK with Matthew Stafford how does DK compare? A lot closer I'd wager.

There's no way to prove this unless we improve the QB substantially. There's no way to improve the QB unless John drafts a great QB and we develop him.

I don't care what you or anyone else says: Geno Smith is a backup, period. He'll never win a Super Bowl. He's bad in the red zone and bad in come backs. Guy is racking up yards dinking and dunking.

You want to talk about Seattle homers? Only a Seattle homer would think Geno Smith is going to use a D.K. and JSN in a manner that will allow them to become a Hall of Famer. D.K. is a race horse, a thoroughbred with freakish size and speed that will only reach his potential with a bomber QB that let's him take the top off consistently.

If DK plays 9 years like Megatron, he's gonna rack up yards. If he plays 15 years like Terrell Owens, I'd be real surprise if he didn't make the Hall of Fame unless he plays with continuous borderline starter QBs.

DK is in his 6th year averaging 1024 yards a year and 7.6 TDs a year with a backup elevated to starter. What do D.K.'s stats look with a prime Stafford throwing to him or a prime Russ or a top level QB? I'd bet you money they look a helluva a lot better than they do right now and we wouldn't be having this debate about DK being a Hall of Fame WR.

D.K. a stud being held back by the Gm's inability to draft a new bonafide starter that can use his size and speed to hit the deep ball.

I guarantee if we get a better QB, DK will look a ton better. He's going to keep climbing the ranks of WRs, slower if we can't upgrade the QB than we should.

You're doing your typical hating rubbish because you don't like his attitude. He has elite WR speed and size and he's being held back right now by joining the Seahawks after the team fell off, especially at the QB position.

There's no way we're going to settle this discussion until the QB position is upgraded because as I stated before: no position is more affected by QB play than WR. Geno stinks in the red zone. Having D.K. has helped Geno, but it hasn't helped DK near as much. I think with a better QB DK is averaging 10 TDs a year in his prime and probably works in a few 15 to 18 TDs years. But he's stuck with Geno until we upgrade.

Just like Seattle fans are stuck in mediocrity until they upgrade the QB position. Middle draft picks and no real contention for a Super Bowl. Geno is never going to be a Super Bowl contender. You can make me eat my words if I'm wrong.

River Dog wrote:Honest question: Are we the only team that utilizes their #1 receiver in a similar fashion as we are with Metcalf? I have no way of knowing, but my sense is that there's a lot of teams who use their #1 receiver as we are with Metcalf.

And I don't think I'm undervaluing him. I was asking why there was a lack of production, ie injuries, defensive adjustments, etc. The discussion turned to HOF credentials, which I don't think he has and has caused you to think that I undervalue him. What we seem to be doing with him is working, ie we are winning games, so frankly, I don't care if Metcalf catches another pass again so long as we "just win, baby!"

We are not wining a Super Bowl with Geno Smith at QB. You can mark that down on your calendar and call me on it if I'm wrong. I'm making that call. The Seahawks won't be anything but a pretend contender as long as Geno Smith is the QB. His stats are smoke and mirrors and he's not a real contender. I don't believe in him. I don't see Seattle doing nothing but the usual make the playoffs and lose as long as Geno Smith is under center. if John doesn't draft a QB to upgrade past Geno soon, he definitely needs to be shown the door.

I'm not interested in this barely making the playoffs BS that seems to satisfy some Seattle fans while not really being a contender. I'd rather crash and burn and be put in position to draft a real starting QB than continue to be a middle tier "you punched your ticket to mediocre playoff contention" to take a shot at a high end QB that contends for 5 to 10 years for real.

John better find someone soon as I can't watch this trash pseudo-contention with wasted talent at WR with a backup throwing to them. What's next? JSN wasting his talent for years with our lack of a quality QB.

River Dog wrote:Honest question: Are we the only team that utilizes their #1 receiver in a similar fashion as we are with Metcalf? I have no way of knowing, but my sense is that there's a lot of teams who use their #1 receiver as we are with Metcalf.

And I don't think I'm undervaluing him. I was asking why there was a lack of production, ie injuries, defensive adjustments, etc. The discussion turned to HOF credentials, which I don't think he has and has caused you to think that I undervalue him. What we seem to be doing with him is working, ie we are winning games, so frankly, I don't care if Metcalf catches another pass again so long as we "just win, baby!"

Aseahawkfan wrote:We are not wining a Super Bowl with Geno Smith at QB. You can mark that down on your calendar and call me on it if I'm wrong. I'm making that call. The Seahawks won't be anything but a pretend contender as long as Geno Smith is the QB. His stats are smoke and mirrors and he's not a real contender. I don't believe in him. I don't see Seattle doing nothing but the usual make the playoffs and lose as long as Geno Smith is under center. if John doesn't draft a QB to upgrade past Geno soon, he definitely needs to be shown the door.

I'm not interested in this barely making the playoffs BS that seems to satisfy some Seattle fans while not really being a contender. I'd rather crash and burn and be put in position to draft a real starting QB than continue to be a middle tier "you punched your ticket to mediocre playoff contention" to take a shot at a high end QB that contends for 5 to 10 years for real.

John better find someone soon as I can't watch this trash pseudo-contention with wasted talent at WR with a backup throwing to them. What's next? JSN wasting his talent for years with our lack of a quality QB.

I'm not sure how this got turned into a Geno Smith thread, but I don't disagree with you. However, your prediction in saying that Team X won't win a Super Bowl within the next 4-5 years isn't really going out on a limb. All things equal, that's one chance in 8. The odds are in your favor.

Aseahawkfan wrote:We are not wining a Super Bowl with Geno Smith at QB. You can mark that down on your calendar and call me on it if I'm wrong. I'm making that call. The Seahawks won't be anything but a pretend contender as long as Geno Smith is the QB. His stats are smoke and mirrors and he's not a real contender. I don't believe in him. I don't see Seattle doing nothing but the usual make the playoffs and lose as long as Geno Smith is under center. if John doesn't draft a QB to upgrade past Geno soon, he definitely needs to be shown the door.

I'm not interested in this barely making the playoffs BS that seems to satisfy some Seattle fans while not really being a contender. I'd rather crash and burn and be put in position to draft a real starting QB than continue to be a middle tier "you punched your ticket to mediocre playoff contention" to take a shot at a high end QB that contends for 5 to 10 years for real.

John better find someone soon as I can't watch this trash pseudo-contention with wasted talent at WR with a backup throwing to them. What's next? JSN wasting his talent for years with our lack of a quality QB.

LMAO! I can tell when you like to take shots when you can. I don't think I speak for everyone, but when or who here on this forum believed Geno was taking this team to the Superbowl, let alone this season? I can't think of anyone on this forum who thought this.

I guess it doesn't matter what topic is on, you seem to just keep driving the same repetitive point over and over. Pretty much after every game, win or lose, it's the Aseahawkfan ritual, and forgive me I am not using your exact words but you get the gist, you post "we need to draft a solid QB, and stuff offensive lineman." Yeah that means nothing to the current roster our situation this season.

Look you aren't wrong by any means, I am with you that we need to draft and develop a QB, but what does it have to do with our current team, or let alone this thread which is mainly about DK, but yet you can't control yourself and you have to drive that square peg into the round circle whole and remind us, at least 5 times over that Geno is trash and is back up material and we need to make changes. Would a top tier QB give DK better results, hmm I would believe that? However, it won't matter because we can't just magically transplant someone like CJ Stroud over to the Hawks and have him toss bombs all day to DK

You also reference Megatron and his greatness with Stafford, keep in mind Megatron was on 2 winning seasons of his 9 year career. The Lions were trash during those years, and like I posted before when you are having a losing season your offense stats are going to be inflated because you are always playing from behind and this will increase high output opportunities. This is no slight to Megatron as he was great, but even a stud QB like Stafford couldn't carry his Lion team out of the dumps.

I think mostly the reason that DK's stats have dropped off so dramatically is that JSN is proving to be a rising star and a quickly rising one. He is a much better all around receiver than is DK. He reliably gets open and has great hands and gets good yards after the catch. And he doesn't commit all those penalties. Simply put, JSN has become the go to guy that we thought DK was going to be. You'll also notice that Lockett's stats are way down as well. JSN has basically taken Lockett's place and and then some.

trents wrote:I think mostly the reason that DK's stats have dropped off so dramatically is that JSN is proving to be a rising star and a quickly rising one. He is a much better all around receiver than is DK. He reliably gets open and has great hands and gets good yards after the catch. And he doesn't commit all those penalties. Simply put, JSN has become the go to guy that we thought DK was going to be. You'll also notice that Lockett's stats are way down as well. JSN has basically taken Lockett's place and and then some.

In defense of Metcalf, he hasn't been committing as many penalties as in the past. He hasn't had a single penalty since Week 4 and hasn't drawn any of the bonehead PF flags he used to draw. And as someone once pointed out, due to the style of play necessary to defend him, he draws a lot of penalties against the opposition. But he hasn't been producing, either, so it works both ways.

But I do agree with you that JSN has taken over as our go-to receiver. He's much more elusive, more of a fart in the skillet, Tyreek Hill type of receiver that's a threat on jet sweeps and bubble screens. But he's not as much of a red zone threat, doesn't create mismatches.

Lockett is clearly on his way out. He didn't have a single catch last Sunday and was targeted just once. Time for him to retire.

Honest question: Are we the only team that utilizes their #1 receiver in a similar fashion as we are with Metcalf? I have no way of knowing, but my sense is that there's a lot of teams who use their #1 receiver as we are with Metcalf.

The old saying that the NFL is a copycat league is true if you have the players to copy it. But it's all about getting favorable matchups any way a team can and it's part of what was missing from Pete's Offenses of the past. Pre snap motion is another aspect that we do more often and it not only helps determine if the Defense is in Man or Zone coverage, but it can cause a slight bit of confusion and can put a defender in a bind where he has to make a decision that leaves a vulnerability regardless of what option he chooses. Now if we can only get an OL that can get some push on short yardage...

This video breakdown of how the Cards used zone to take away DK and leave tons of room for our other receivers might explain a lot about DK's reduced production. Basically, they show how the Hawks split DK alone to one side and the Cards would have 2 or 3 defenders to take away DK while the Hawks ran 4 routes away from DK. If that keeps happening, it's going to keep leading to wins, so I'll take DK-as-decoy all day. I saw a tweet (can't find it, sorry) that the Hawks have seen zone defense on something like 73% of snaps, tops in the league, which suggests that the video breakdown doesn't only just apply to the Cards game.

I'll definitely be watching for this against the Pack.

Oly wrote:This video breakdown of how the Cards used zone to take away DK and leave tons of room for our other receivers might explain a lot about DK's reduced production. Basically, they show how the Hawks split DKL alone to one side and the Cards would have 2 or 3 defenders to take away DK while the Hawks ran 4 routes away from DK. If that keeps happening, it's going to keep leading to wins, so I'll take DK-as-decoy all day. I saw a tweet (can't find it, sorry) that the Hawks have seen zone defense on something like 73% of snaps, tops in the league, which suggests that the video breakdown doesn't only just apply to the Cards game.

I'll definitely be watching for this against the Pack.

This is the segment I was talking about. And yes other teams try to run the 4 by1 formation but it only works if teams are not willing to leave the 1 (DK) single covered. Nobody is willing to single cover DK (as they make reference to).

Best part is that DK ain't bitching about it, no "just give me the damn ball!", he appears perfectly happy as long as what we're doing is working.

c_hawkbob wrote:
Best part is that DK ain't bitching about it, no "just give me the damn ball!", he appears perfectly happy as long as what we're doing is working.

I second this, he has grown up quite a bit and he plays for his team. Unlike AJ Brown, even after winning is bitching about not getting the ball and going public about it.

4XPIPS wrote:LMAO! I can tell when you like to take shots when you can. I don't think I speak for everyone, but when or who here on this forum believed Geno was taking this team to the Superbowl, let alone this season? I can't think of anyone on this forum who thought this.

I guess it doesn't matter what topic is on, you seem to just keep driving the same repetitive point over and over. Pretty much after every game, win or lose, it's the Aseahawkfan ritual, and forgive me I am not using your exact words but you get the gist, you post "we need to draft a solid QB, and stuff offensive lineman." Yeah that means nothing to the current roster our situation this season.

Look you aren't wrong by any means, I am with you that we need to draft and develop a QB, but what does it have to do with our current team, or let alone this thread which is mainly about DK, but yet you can't control yourself and you have to drive that square peg into the round circle whole and remind us, at least 5 times over that Geno is trash and is back up material and we need to make changes. Would a top tier QB give DK better results, hmm I would believe that? However, it won't matter because we can't just magically transplant someone like CJ Stroud over to the Hawks and have him toss bombs all day to DK

You also reference Megatron and his greatness with Stafford, keep in mind Megatron was on 2 winning seasons of his 9 year career. The Lions were trash during those years, and like I posted before when you are having a losing season your offense stats are going to be inflated because you are always playing from behind and this will increase high output opportunities. This is no slight to Megatron as he was great, but even a stud QB like Stafford couldn't carry his Lion team out of the dumps.

I'm not the only one as if you have noticed Riverdog makes repetitive point trying to downplay DK over and over and over again. It's annoying. Just like his snide remarks about D.K. not being a "Hall of Fame" receiver when he was well on his way when what happened; The QB was better. This shouldn't even be a discussion to Seattle fans who know the team. In Russ's great year, DK had a great year. In Geno's great first year, D.K has a pro bowl year. Russ and Geno drop off, D.K. drops off.

Dude is averaging 1000 yards a year and almost 8 TDs a season. You continue on even at that pace and you're well on your way to the Hall if you play 10 years or so. You look at DK stats, you see the story. QB has a great year, DK has a great year. QB has a lousy year or lesser year, DK's stats drop.

Why is anyone asking why D.K. has dropped off when Geno has dropped off? Geno has thrown 14 TDs in 13 games into the season. Stop asking when the answer is right there: Geno is not doing great this year, especially in the red zone. Everyone' but the second year guy's stats are down.

Tyler's down. DK's down. JSN is up because his bar was lower.

DK's bar is 1300 yards and 10 TDs in his year 2. Compare JSN to D.K's second year and they don't compare.. People forget D.K.'s second year and suddenly JSN is "The man" because our QB can't hit DK like he did when he threw 30 TDs or when Russ was here and doing well.

D.K. is one of the best receivers the Seahawks have ever drafted. His stats were on the rise until what happened: Russ fell off and we switched to Geno. D.K. did fine to the tune of a Pro Bowl when Geno had his good first year, then Geno fell off and so did DK. Follow the QB stats and you see D.K's numbers.

JSN looks great, but he's not D.K. He likely doesn't have the red zone potential of a D.K. but we'll see for sure down the line if we ever get a good red zone QB again. JSN is a Tyler Lockett replacement and upgrade, but D.K. is a type of receiver that is rare. 6'4" and 230 lbs. of blazing speed. He's a damn stud that we can't find a QB to really take advantage of. What I wouldn't give to see a D.K. play with a prime Brady or Rodgers type of QB to see what he can really do just to see the amazing football.

c_hawkbob wrote:Best part is that DK ain't bitching about it, no "just give me the damn ball!", he appears perfectly happy as long as what we're doing is working.

4XPIPS wrote:I second this, he has grown up quite a bit and he plays for his team. Unlike AJ Brown, even after winning is bitching about not getting the ball and going public about it.

Totally agree.

Oly wrote:This video breakdown of how the Cards used zone to take away DK and leave tons of room for our other receivers might explain a lot about DK's reduced production. Basically, they show how the Hawks split DK alone to one side and the Cards would have 2 or 3 defenders to take away DK while the Hawks ran 4 routes away from DK. If that keeps happening, it's going to keep leading to wins, so I'll take DK-as-decoy all day. I saw a tweet (can't find it, sorry) that the Hawks have seen zone defense on something like 73% of snaps, tops in the league, which suggests that the video breakdown doesn't only just apply to the Cards game.

I'll definitely be watching for this against the Pack.

Defenses will adjust to not use up to 3 defenders, but that creates opportunities for DK to run in routes or double moves to take advantage of the defensive adjustments. Putting a lockdown corner against DK would go a long way to solving that problem but not every team has one.

NorthHawk wrote:Defenses will adjust to not use up to 3 defenders, but that creates opportunities for DK to run in routes or double moves to take advantage of the defensive adjustments. Putting a lockdown corner against DK would go a long way to solving that problem but not every team has one.

Agreed. I think defenses were daring our other receivers to beat them, and JSN has taken them up on that challenge. I think they'll inevitably adjust to try to limit JSN's targets and that should open DK up a bit more.

Metcalf vs. the Packers: 3 targets, 3 receptions, 28 yards, 0 TD's.

And the beat goes on. Is this guy ever going to become part of our offense outside of being a decoy?

I think he’s dealing with an injury or two. He had the knee sprain and has missed practices with a shoulder issue. I have no idea how bad those injuries are.

NorthHawk wrote:I think he’s dealing with an injury or two. He had the knee sprain and has missed practices with a shoulder issue. I have no idea how bad those injuries are.

Take a peek at the thread I posted about snap counts. He was in on 55 of the 56 plays we ran against the Packers, so he couldn't have been too injured.

River Dog wrote:Metcalf vs. the Packers: 3 targets, 3 receptions, 28 yards, 0 TD's.

And the beat goes on. Is this guy ever going to become part of our offense outside of being a decoy?

So it's repetitious for me to bring up the problems with the QB, but Riverdog endlessly dogging on D.K. for his "lack of production" even though Geno is having a down year is ok?

D.K. is not a chain moving, possession receiver. He's a huge, speed demon WR big enough to play TE who can dominate the long ball and the red zone if you had a QB who could throw a good long ball or was good in the red zone. Geno is neither. As long as we got Geno and Howell with a bad O-line who can't hold while a play develops, better to let JSN do his possession receiver thing and trade D.K. somewhere where they can use him well.

I know Riverdog has this weird idea in his head that every receiver is everything and they aren't. Receivers have certain skillsets. Dink and dunk ball is not where D.K. shines. It's where JSN shines, but not D.K. You can find a lot of receivers like JSN. Maybe not the same quality as JSN, but his receiving style and where he fits in. He's more useful on more teams because he can play dink and dunk ball well.

To use a receiver like D.K. built for the long ball and red zone, you need a special type of QB with the ability take advantage of it. We knew this when we drafted D.K..

https://walterfootball.com/scoutingreport2019dmetcalf.php

Every scouting report lists D.K.'s greatest strength as red zone and downfield long ball, not route running and dink and dunk ball. It was a known skill set where we drafted D.K. to take advantage of Russ's big arm where D.K. and Tyler would work in tandem to open up the entire field.

Sorry, Geno isn't capable of this type of ball. Man has 14 TD and 13 Ints. He has one good year in the red zone and one ok year and this year he is stinking. That one good year he had in the red zone, D.K. had a better year as well.

So if I'm analyzing our current needs and capabilities, I think D.K. is more valuable to another team than he is to us. As long as we don't have a QB that can consistently use his speed and size throwing the long ball or use him in the red zone, we have a guy we're paying 32 million dollars to next year that people expect to play like a possession receiver like Riverdog's seems to expect. D.K. is not a possession receiver known for his tight route running and sure hands. He's a blow the top off long baller and red zone threat. He has almost T.E. size and his speed is elite. Given our O-line and QB, we can't take advantage of that.

Yet Riverdog[ endlessly dogs on this guy. Even though D.K. has 840 yards and 3 tds which is only 140 yards behind JSN, somehow D.K isn't carrying his share. And Tyler is doing even worse, but not a peep out of Riverdog about Tyler or how bad Geno is doing this year as the hype around him from his first year wears off. Geno is figured out and not great. He's the backup everyone knew he was playing backup ball as a starter because we haven't drafted his replacement.

Riverdog keeps asking, "Why is D.K. production bad? Why is it so down?"

It's as simple as the QB isn't good enough to use him like he was being used when he was getting 1300 yards and 10 TDs and 12 TDs the following year. Then we moved to Geno and D.K.'s red zone production dropped off. Even with the drop off in 2023, D.K. had 8 T.D's, 40 percent of Geno's 20 passing TDs.

Now every team can see Tyler is falling off and if you can lockdown D.K'., you can lock down Geno's passing ability. So they do it. JSN is the beneficiary of D.K. getting taken away from Geno and Tyler fallen off the map.

Couple that with a new OC and a bad O-line, you get the reason for the drop off. But somehow Riverdog can't see this and keeps acting like it's DK's fault Geno sucks in the red zone and can't throw a 40 or 50 yard go route consistently. I guess we should be put D.K' in at QB to throw to himself as he would have a better chance of taking advantage of what he does well.

River Dog wrote:Metcalf vs. the Packers: 3 targets, 3 receptions, 28 yards, 0 TD's.

And the beat goes on. Is this guy ever going to become part of our offense outside of being a decoy?

Aseahawkfan wrote:So it's repetitious for me to bring up the problems with the QB, but Riverdog endlessly dogging on D.K. for his "lack of production" even though Geno is having a down year is ok?

Please, don't kill the messenger! Did I say it was Metcalf's fault that he's not producing? Go back and read some of my comments and show me where it was that I unequivocally hung his lack of performance on Metcalf and him alone. I posed the question "is this guy ever going to become part of our offense outside of being a decoy?" That doesn't necessarily mean that I'm blaming Metcalf, at least not entirely.

For whatever reason, whether it's Geno, Grubbs, injuries, or the Man in the Moon, Metcalf hasn't been producing. It's become a trend, and last Sunday was typical of the past 6-7 games.