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RW is now 7-0 against the golden boys Brees, Rodgers, Brady, and Manning. He continually gets dissed for being a game manager and not putting up big enough numbers. But he is a man with no ego who makes intelligent decisions and plays to win over and over again. I think its time to start including him in the discussion of the best in the game and a potentially MVP candidate. I know there's lots of football left to play but this kid is never going to change the amazing way he plays.

Assuming his career continues to trend upward it's nothing different than the way they held Marino over Montana and Manning over Brady early in their respective careers. Plus more and more media pundits are just flat out stubborn. Because of the internet more and more people throw their incorrect statements in their faces and they get jaded and bitter and cling to their original POV almost out of spite.

Give it time.

It sure was a special thing to watch Russell put the team on his back in overtime and make that win happen. He just wouldn't allow that loss to happen.

I think he is getting his due now

http://ftw.usatoday.com/2014/09/seattle ... ell-wilson

All he needs to do is what he has been doing. Couple more rings, and even the most staunch detractor will change his tune.

Hawktawk wrote:RW is now 7-0 against the golden boys Brees, Rodgers, Brady, and Manning. He continually gets dissed for being a game manager and not putting up big enough numbers. But he is a man with no ego who makes intelligent decisions and plays to win over and over again. I think its time to start including him in the discussion of the best in the game and a potentially MVP candidate. I know there's lots of football left to play but this kid is never going to change the amazing way he plays.

Don't worry, he keeps playing like this, he'll get plenty of recognition.

More on his Russness: http://footballgameplan.com/football-ga ... ick-to-be/

c_hawkbob wrote:More on his Russness: http://footballgameplan.com/football-ga ... ick-to-be/

his Russness classic

RW has "it", no question, and has been that way since he started for us 2 years ago.

QB's like him only come around once in a great while, especially those taken in the 3rd rd:)

The guy is just Amazing. That's it.

Just so there is no confusion as to were the team stands

http://mynorthwest.com/292/2611852/Carr ... those-guys

"But when he was asked what allows Wilson to rise to the occasion in games against the NFL's elite quarterbacks, Carroll said it's that Wilson is one himself.

"He's one of those guys, that's all," Carroll said. "He's as good as those guys." "

Anthony wrote:Just so there is no confusion as to were the team stands

http://mynorthwest.com/292/2611852/Carr ... those-guys

"But when he was asked what allows Wilson to rise to the occasion in games against the NFL's elite quarterbacks, Carroll said it's that Wilson is one himself.

"He's one of those guys, that's all," Carroll said. "He's as good as those guys." "

Nice!

Unfortunately the media and most casual fans tend to concentrate on gross numbers, like total yards and total touchdown passes. Russell plays on a team that does not have a true #1 receiver, like a Megatron, a Dez Bryant, or Julio Jones. Sure, Percy Harvin is a great weapon, but he's more of a YAC type receiver/running back/kick returner and isn't your typical vertical receiving threat that's going to produce a lot of yards and passing touchdowns for his quarterback. That's why Russell ranks pretty low in value to fantasy football freaks. For that reason alone, Russell probably won't get the consideration he deserves for things like MVP awards.

But I honestly don't care. All I care about is winning, and knowing Russell, I'll bet he doesn't give a rip about personal accolades except as an afterthought.

The irony is that Russell Wilson is really a very solid fantasy QB he should be starting from week to week in any league 10 teams or more. These are the QBs in the league that would be a surprise if Wilson out produced them:

Manning
Rodgers
Brees
Luck
Stafford
Ryan

That's it. You can make the argument I suppose that Foles and/or Rivers could end up above him too. Only three weeks into the season but right now he's the 6th best fantasy QB. Ironically it's the undeserved reputation as a "game manager" that hurts his perceived fantasy value.

I'm really just done with this debate. People never get tired of being on the wrong side of history. They did it with Montana, they did it with Brady. If Wilson can manage to win a couple more rings they'll start slobbing his knob crazy.

It is interesting to see the slow swaying of fans,players and media towards Wilson, many who were clamoring "game manager" are changing that tune, and doing so at an increasing rate. People aren't any longer scoffing at the notion that Wilson may indeed be better than Luck, Kam, RGIII ( how quick was everyone to get off that bandwagon? Couple broken ankles in the exodus), KaepKap etc. Last year, Wilson almost always came in near the bottom of the discussion, and yet, now ( even though nothing about the way he performs, practices, studies etc has changed) he is "the" guy or at least in the top two.

It surprises few of us ( course we've had the privileprivilege of watching all of it play out first hand as opposed to some random Google search, or highlight reel) but the pundits, fans, players and that stubborn group of idiots are starting to come around. Wilson is ALREADY a top ten QB, and he is building his momentum as he goes.

kalibane wrote:The irony is that Russell Wilson is really a very solid fantasy QB he should be starting from week to week in any league 10 teams or more.

You are correct sir! In fact, at the moment, Russell Wilson is the tenth best player regardless of position.

Player Pts
1. Luck, Andrew IND QB 87.0
2. Jones, Julio ATL WR 76.5
3. Ryan, Matt ATL QB 74.8
4. Manning, Peyton DEN QB 72.3
5. Brown, Antonio PIT WR 70.6
6. Lynch, Marshawn SEA RB 69.5
7. Foles, Nick PHI QB 68.4
8. Murray, DeMarco DAL RB 67.7
9. Cutler, Jay CHI QB 67.5
10. Wilson, Russell SEA QB 66.0

kalibane wrote: They did it with Montana, they did it with Brady. WHEN Wilson wins a couple more rings they'll start slobbing his knob crazy.

Fixed that for ya!

I would not choose another QB in the league right now. At all.

That said, RW is NOT a fantasy stud.... Which does impact some people's perception of him. Stat nuts like Jaws, for one. He is a very consistent week-in, week-out play because he'll get you 185-225 1.5 TDs & .3 INTs. Also, he rarely gives away points (fumbles/INTs) but he has been sacked too much in his 1st 2.3 years (which count against him in most fantasy leagues. I've participated in lots of fantasy leagues, each w/VERY different scoring systems and RW is about an 8-10 QB start and not much higher. No disrespect, but he is not a top 10 fantasy point scorer in MOST leagues.

But, WTFC??? He's a # 1-3 weekly start in real football. Most fantasy players get the difference. The ones that don't can suck it... They are on the wrong side of history. Unless he has some way unforeseen tiger woodsian like eff up, he'll be a great QB for years to come. I love the kid. Best ever Seahawk QB (sorry Matt, Dave & Jim). It's an exciting time for the club.

GO HAWKS!!

Best ever Seahawk QB (sorry Matt, Dave & Jim).

I don't think any apology is necessary there, Sis- I'd bet real money they'd agree with you.

I loved em all in their own time. Dave was fun, oh god but the fumbling. We hawk fans are probably the most educated about hand size in the league. When they'd talk about Wilson's paw size - it was a relief to me.

When they'd talk about Wilson's paw size - it was a relief to me.

You and me both, my friend.

All due respect Sis'

Russ was the #8 fantasy QB in standard scoring leagues for 2013. He throws a good number of TDs. Most leagues you either need 25 or 50 passing yards for one point so his low total there isn't a killer. The trump card of course is the running yards and TDs. It's the same reason Cam Newton has been a Top 5 fantasy QB every season he's been in the league (although not looking so hot this year).

No he hasn't been a fantasy monster, and doesn't project that way because of the offense. But what he is, is a consistant contributor and an insane value. So while people are blowing 4th round pick on Stafford I'm picking up an Extra RB, WR or a Julius Thomas and getting Wilson in the 10th round even though Stafford only scored 11 more fantasy points than Wilson over the course of the 2013 season.

P.S. I've played Fantasy Football for almost 20 years. I've never seen a league where QB sacks are counted against the QB. I guess some leagues out there must do it because you say so but there is no way it's even close to the majority. Most people play ESPN or NFL.com standard scoring or PPR leagues. Sacks are only included for defensive purposes. That is the most bizarre rule I've ever heard. Basically penalizes a QB if he has a bad Offensive Line which is totally out of his control.

Early in my groundskeeper career I played fantasy football. We met at the branding iron saloon every Thursday. My employee Bob and I chose the name "19th hole". We played for 3 years and had 2 firsts and a second place finish. Ive never played since which was the late 90's. It was a lot of fun though making all the games much more interesting.

Kalibane... You are one of my favorite posters. I enjoy reading your insights most often - but here, you seem a little smug in your "all due respect" response. I've also played fantasy football on many different platforms- also for about 20 years. I'm in 2 leagues and sacks count against me. I watched my espn app as Matt Ryan lost me 6 points in as many plays on Sunday w/ 2 INTs and a sack. I've won my share of leagues, and aside from a few seasons w/ a funky combo of bad luck & being too busy to beat the waiver wire - I've done VERY well. Interestingly, I am currently 4 and 0 in one and 0 and 4 in the other (I'm losing in the league w/ Russell As my QB..... Not that it's his fault. Just an interesting side note.)

As I said. R W is rarely gonna hurt you, but he's rarely gonna get you that monster Manning, Rodgers, Brees type outing. Say what you want, but he's a better than average start. He's not a top fantasy QB play.

I think you miss my point....that smart fantasy players know the difference between a player's real value and their fantasy value. I am one of those. And yes, I know why Russ scores the way he does...it's our system & not him that puts him in that 8 - 10 fantasy QB range. As I also said, in real football, there is no QB I would rather have.

Outside of the sack thing, you and I are saying the same thing. I said he's an 8-10 QB start... You say he's 8 in your format. (Any fantasy player knows there are so many different scoring machinations - it isn't funny). Perhaps you misinterpretted my statement that he's not a top 10 fantasy guy (as was suggested a few posts above....top 10 overall) as he isn't a top 10 fantasy QB????

kalibane wrote:All due respect Sis'

Russ was the #8 fantasy QB in standard scoring leagues for 2013. He throws a good number of TDs. Most leagues you either need 25 or 50 passing yards for one point so his low total there isn't a killer. The trump card of course is the running yards and TDs. It's the same reason Cam Newton has been a Top 5 fantasy QB every season he's been in the league (although not looking so hot this year).

No he hasn't been a fantasy monster, and doesn't project that way because of the offense. But what he is, is a consistant contributor and an insane value. So while people are blowing 4th round pick on Stafford I'm picking up an Extra RB, WR or a Julius Thomas and getting Wilson in the 10th round even though Stafford only scored 11 more fantasy points than Wilson over the course of the 2013 season.

P.S. I've played Fantasy Football for almost 20 years. I've never seen a league where QB sacks are counted against the QB. I guess some leagues out there must do it because you say so but there is no way it's even close to the majority. Most people play ESPN or NFL.com standard scoring or PPR leagues. Sacks are only included for defensive purposes. That is the most bizarre rule I've ever heard. Basically penalizes a QB if he has a bad Offensive Line which is totally out of his control.

I play in an 8 team FF league, so having the #8 ranked QB on your team would be a huge liability as you need your QB to score points for you. Russell is a much better quarterback in real football than he is in FF.

Of course he's much better in real life than fantasy. That's not the point. The point is he is very much undervalued in fantasy as well.

Two things. I'm speaking from the perspective of a Standard size league with Standard Scoring. There is no point breaking down every iteration of alternate league size and scoring rules. An 8 team league is really small 10 is standard and IMO 12 ideal. Too much luck involved in an 8 team league

SEcond, even in an 8 team league Wilson is no where close to a liability. Fantasy is not about pure rank. It's more about point differential. That's why I never pick a QB high in a draft.

To put it in perspective for the 2013 season by standard scoring. Russell Wilson was ranked #8 but had he scored just 27 more points over the course of the season (1.6 points per week) he would have been the #3 fantasy QB. The caveat is that Rodgers was injured so you can call it #4 if you want but the point is Wilson was a 2nd tier fantasy QB.

The difference is you are spending a 3rd or 4th round pick on Stafford or Newton. I'm generally spending a 10th round pick on Wilson and using that 4th round pick on a RB or WR.

Here's how it ends up breaking down (based on 2013 average draft position):

You - 4th round QB: Cam Newton (282 points), Stafford (267 points)
10th round RB: Bernard Pierce (65 points), Bryce Brown, Ronnie Hillman (so
low in points it wasn't worth delving into)
10th round WR: Lance Moore (51 points), DeAndre Hopkins (81 points)
Stevie Johnson (81 points)


Me - 10th round QB: Russell Wilson (256 points)
4th round RB: Giovanni Bernard (149 points), Ryan Matthews (175 points)
4th round WR: Jordy Nelson (173 points), Antonio Brown (197 points),
Wes Welker (130 points)

By the 10th round you're taking fliers on RBs and role players at WR. So you tell me which combo would you'd rather have, the #3 QB and the crap shoot at the other positions? Or the #8 QB and a solid RB or really good WR?

kalibane wrote:Of course he's much better in real life than fantasy. That's not the point. The point is he is very much undervalued in fantasy as well.

Two things. I'm speaking from the perspective of a Standard size league with Standard Scoring. There is no point breaking down every iteration of alternate league size and scoring rules. An 8 team league is really small 10 is standard and IMO 12 ideal. Too much luck involved in an 8 team league

SEcond, even in an 8 team league Wilson is no where close to a liability. Fantasy is not about pure rank. It's more about point differential. That's why I never pick a QB high in a draft.

To put it in perspective for the 2013 season by standard scoring. Russell Wilson was ranked #8 but had he scored 27 points over the course of the season (1.6 points per week) he would have been the #3 fantasy QB. The caveat is that Rodgers was injured so you can call it #4 if you want but the point is Wilson was a 2nd tier fantasy QB.

The difference is you are spending a 3rd or 4th round pick on Stafford or Newton. I'm generally spending a 10th round pick on Wilson and using that 4th round pick on a RB or WR.

Here's how it ends up breaking down (based on 2013 average draft position):

You - 4th round QB: Cam Newton (282 points), Stafford (267 points)
10th round RB: Bernard Pierce (65 points), Bryce Brown, Ronnie Hillman (so
low in points it wasn't worth delving into)
10th round WR: Lance Moore (51 points), DeAndre Hopkins (81 points)
Stevie Johnson (81 points)


Me - 10th round QB: Russell Wilson (256 points)
4th round RB: Giovanni Bernard (149 points), Ryan Matthews (175 points)
4th round WR: Jordy Nelson (173 points), Antonio Brown (197 points),
Wes Welker (130 points)

By the 10th round you're taking fliers on RBs and role players at WR. So you tell me which combo would you'd rather have, the #3 QB and the crap shoot at the other positions? Or the #8 QB and a solid RB or really good WR?

I'm not a FF expert. Last year was the first time I've ever played, and I finished 7th in an 8 team league composed of a couple of other novices, so that right there destroys any credibility I may have on a debate about the subject, so I'll just yield to you in that you no doubt know a lot more about the subject than I do.

I play in an 8 team FF league, so having the #8 ranked QB on your team would be a huge liability as you need your QB to score points for you.

He wouldn't be a liability if you were the last guy in an 8 team league to pick a QB, right?

(and if I'm misunderstanding how fantasy works, forgive me- I've never played)

Well Riv here is a tip then.

Fantasy is in large part all about finding value. QB is one of the easiest positions to find value because aside from the absolute elite guys (Manning, Brees, Rodgers) there isn't enough differential between the start of the 2nd tier and the 12th best fantasy QB. And there are always quality guys on the waiver wire (especially in a small league like yours). I always target a few QBs who are undervalued and being drafted far too late. This year it was Russell Wilson, Matt Ryan and Tony Romo.

I think what Riv was saying is he would want to take a QB earlier because he didn't want to have the 8th best QB because he'd have a disadvantage at the position every week. It's just not quite the disadvantage he percieves it to be. Generally speaking it actually hurts your overall team to take a QB high (unless it's one of the big three).

I understood every move you made and I implore a similar draft philosophy & often win.

Where in my post does it say he's a liability? Why the need to tell me that the scoring that has, in fact existed in my leagues on many sites - does t exist? It does. You say I missed the point, and I'm saying if u read this thread pot by post - particularly mine...what are you really disagreeing with?

Sis, The only post I made in response to you was the one that you replied to.

All the rest of my stuff was a response to Riverdog who said that he believed having the 8th best fantasy QB would be a "huge liability" in an 8 man league. None of those posts had anything to do with you.

I actually just this minute realized you wrote a response to me . Going to read it now.

I also didn't say that the scoring in your league doesn't exist (I actually said it must exist because you say it does). I was just saying it's very uncommon and the first time I've heard of such a scoring system in 20 years of fantasy football. If you penalize your QBs for sacks then I would imagine RW is not a top 10 fantasy QB. I'm just saying that in the predominate 2 scoring systems he is.

Read your response:

I was not being smug. We may very well be saying the same thing. What I took issue with was this statement.

"He is not a top 10 fantasy point scorer in MOST leagues."

Now if you meant Top 10 overall then my bad... I definitely misunderstood you. I just thought it was too obvious that he wasn't a top 10 point scorer overall. I just assumed you meant a top 10 scoring QB.

Essentially these are the things I'm saying:

1. Russell Wilson is a 2nd tier fantasy QB (which in my book makes him a good fantasy player)

2. Russell Wilson should be a start every week in an 8 to12 team league with standard scoring or a ppr format. Unless you have better QB or an equivalent QB with a much more favorable matchup.

3. He is one of the more undervalued fantasy players in the NFL (among established players) when people are taking players with roughly equivalent production in the 3rd and 4th round and you could get Wilson in rounds 8-10.

I personally like Wilson as my fantasy QB exactly because he's steady. There is nothing more frustrating in fantasy then having a roller coaster guy like Andy Dalton, who actually was a top 5 fantasy QB last year but would have stretches where starting him absolutely killed you and then he goes bananas but you may have gotten frustrated and benched him or all those points come in a game you would have won without him anyway.

kalibane wrote:Well Riv here is a tip then.

Fantasy is in large part all about finding value. QB is one of the easiest positions to find value because aside from the absolute elite guys (Manning, Brees, Rodgers) there isn't enough differential between the start of the 2nd tier and the 12th best fantasy QB. And there are always quality guys on the waiver wire (especially in a small league like yours). I always target a few QBs who are undervalued and being drafted far too late. This year it was Russell Wilson, Matt Ryan and Tony Romo.

I think what Riv was saying is he would want to take a QB earlier because he didn't want to have the 8th best QB because he'd have a disadvantage at the position every week. It's just not quite the disadvantage he percieves it to be. Generally speaking it actually hurts your overall team to take a QB high (unless it's one of the big three).

I got the #1 overall and took Shady McCoy, we reversed the draft order so I didn't get another pick until #16, took Stafford with my #2 (Manning, Brees, and Rodgers were all gone). It hasn't gone well. My best 'find' has been Bennett at tight end. I'm 2-2.

kalibane wrote:Read your response:

I was not being smug. We may very well be saying the same thing. What I took issue with was this statement.

"He is not a top 10 fantasy point scorer in MOST leagues."

Now if you meant Top 10 overall then my bad... I definitely misunderstood you. I just thought it was too obvious that he wasn't a top 10 point scorer overall. I just assumed you meant a top 10 scoring QB.

Essentially these are the things I'm saying:

1. Russell Wilson is a 2nd tier fantasy QB (which in my book makes him a good fantasy player)

2. Russell Wilson should be a start every week in an 8 to12 team league with standard scoring or a ppr format. Unless you have better QB or an equivalent QB with a much more favorable matchup.

3. He is one of the more undervalued fantasy players in the NFL (among established players) when people are taking players with roughly equivalent production in the 3rd and 4th round and you could get Wilson in rounds 8-10.

I personally like Wilson as my fantasy QB exactly because he's steady. There is nothing more frustrating in fantasy then having a roller coaster guy like Andy Dalton, who actually was a top 5 fantasy QB last year but would have stretches where starting him absolutely killed you and then he goes bananas but you may have gotten frustrated and benched him or all those points come in a game you would have won without him anyway.

We are saying the same thing. I responded to a post a few above mine. Someone claimed RW was a top 10 fantasy player overall. I disagreed with that and added that he would be about 8-10 in fantasy scoring. Steady. The all due respect line is used in my workplace as a put-down and I see this is not the case here... All due respect.

Carry on.

River... That #1 draft spot can be the kiss of death. Hope shady plays out for ya. The biggest mistakes I see people making in fantasy are over drafting QBs, not getting enough RB depth, and having more than one D and TE on your roster (unless you are allowed a large # of depth players).

And.... Swapping c level players for other c level players. Patience matters.

Hawk Sista wrote:River... That #1 draft spot can be the kiss of death. Hope shady plays out for ya. The biggest mistakes I see people making in fantasy are over drafting QBs, not getting enough RB depth, and having more than one D and TE on your roster (unless you are allowed a large # of depth players).

My starting RB situation is pretty good as I have McCoy and Bernard. My problem was that Bernard had a bye and I wanted to bench McCoy because he was lame and going on the road against the Niners but all I had as backups was Sproles and Thomas (Saints). I shouldn't have had two RB's on the same team. And to make matters worse, I had D. Thomas (Denver) and the Seattle D, both solid performers and they were on byes, too, plus I was matched up with the #2 team in the league. I got killed. I didn't do enough pre-draft research into the byes.

This week should be better, though. McCoy is at home against the Rams, who's D has been giving up some ground yardage lately. Bernard is going against a Pat's defense that's 25th vs. the run, is on a short week, and just got punked by the Chiefs. My QB Stafford is playing against Buffalo, and they've been giving up a lot of passing yardage. And of course, I'm expecting great things from my Seahawks D this week .

kalibane wrote:
1. Russell Wilson is a 2nd tier fantasy QB (which in my book makes him a good fantasy player)

2. Russell Wilson should be a start every week in an 8 to12 team league with standard scoring or a ppr format. Unless you have better QB or an equivalent QB with a much more favorable matchup.

3. He is one of the more undervalued fantasy players in the NFL (among established players) when people are taking players with roughly equivalent production in the 3rd and 4th round and you could get Wilson in rounds 8-10.

I personally like Wilson as my fantasy QB exactly because he's steady. There is nothing more frustrating in fantasy then having a roller coaster guy like Andy Dalton, who actually was a top 5 fantasy QB last year but would have stretches where starting him absolutely killed you and then he goes bananas but you may have gotten frustrated and benched him or all those points come in a game you would have won without him anyway.

Couldn't agree more with each of these points. As someone who also plays fantasy football and has for years (and usually dominates, though not this season so far ), you nailed it.
Truth is, Wilson is usually badly underrated in most leagues, because of perceptions about him that really are false.