NK summit etc.

[Hawktawk]

So Trump goes to Vietnam for his second sit down with Kim Jong Un. After two days of lavish praise for one of the most ruthless totalitarian dictators on the planet he leaves with a stalemate, absolutely no progress and a deserted lunch banquet.

I will say as one not inclined to give credit to Trump for much of anything that I and many in the MSM( actually free and adversarial media) gave him props initially for not giving away the farm to say he got something. His statements about them wanting" total relief from all sanctions" in exchange for partial dismantlement, coupled with a strong sound bite" sometimes you have to walk" made me think he actually might score a political win, a PR win.

Then comes the correction from not only NK but our own state department that NK was actually only asking for relief for the sanctions imposed in 2016 under the OBAMA administration.One can argue on the merits that it was still a good decision not to fold but why the lies? Then the clincher, his disastrous comments about Kim not being aware of or responsible for the torture and eventual death of Otto Warmbier" he said he didn't know and I took him at his word" This of course prompted bipartisan outrage in the congress as well as a stinging rebuke from the Warmbier family who have been used as PR props, invited to last years SOTU address etc. It was a true Helsinki moment only a slap in the face to a grieving angry family as opposed to our entire intelligence apparatus.

Then this morning its reported he officially cancelled the annual joint military exercises with SK to "decrease tensions" and "save money" . So he did give away something very significant for nothing.

100 million a year saved to appease a ruthless dictator with nukes and 8 billion for a medieval solution to desperate brown skinned people on the southern border.It never ceases to amaze me the utter loose lips sink ships verbal diarrhea of this man who cannot ever avoid saying the quiet part and snatching defeat out of the jaws of victory

[RiverDog]

I'm glad Trump walked out. He probably should have walked out of the first summit as well as all he achieved was to upset our relations with our allies in the area. Obama should have done the same thing with Iran. It's remarkable that he did walk out as there was a huge motivation to get a deal done in order to help his re-election bid, and Lord knows with the way things have been going for him domestically, he needs a victory.

But that's where my complimentary remarks stop. I agree with you about the way Trump blows so much smoke up the arses of these ruthless dictators. It's disgusting, and a direct offense to the family of Otto W., the American citizen that was tortured and killed by the North Koreans. I could understand Trump not saying anything to insult or embarrass Kim, but the way he brown nosed him was completely uncalled for, and is evidence of Trump's lack of a moral compass when he fails to recognize just what kind of monsters are in the room with him.

Trump's judgement of character is extremely lacking. He'll take the words of people like Putin, Kim, or the Saudi Prince based on almost no evidence or even contrary evidence yet he doesn't trust his own staff. It's no wonder he surrounded himself with convicted criminals like Manafort and Cohen. And he has the gall to brag about how he can 'read' people.

[burrrton]

Trump's judgement of character is extremely lacking. He'll take the words of people like Putin, Kim, or the Saudi Prince based on almost no evidence or even contrary evidence yet he doesn't trust his own staff. It's no wonder he surrounded himself with convicted criminals like Manafort and Cohen. And he has the gall to brag about how he can 'read' people.

This. Trump's only requirement is expressing support for him. Do that and he'll give you verbal BJs and senior administration positions. Criticize him and he'll throw 8th-grade insults at you, fire you, and deny ever thinking you were anything but pond scum.

[RiverDog]

Trump's judgement of character is extremely lacking. He'll take the words of people like Putin, Kim, or the Saudi Prince based on almost no evidence or even contrary evidence yet he doesn't trust his own staff. It's no wonder he surrounded himself with convicted criminals like Manafort and Cohen. And he has the gall to brag about how he can 'read' people.

This. Trump's only requirement is expressing support for him. Do that and he'll give you verbal BJs and senior administration positions. Criticize him and he'll throw 8th-grade insults at you, fire you, and deny ever thinking you were anything but pond scum.

There's no better example than Trump's treatment of Jeff Sessions. Here you have a man who was one of the first major pols to come out in support of Trump's candidacy, campaigned for him, gave up his Senate seat to serve in Trump's cabinet, and the only thing he did that Trump didn't like about his performance was that he recused himself in the Mueller investigation. For over a year before eventually firing him, Trump talked about Sessions as if he was some sort of child rapist while Sessions didn't retaliate or speak ill of his boss until at the very end.

And even though Sessions has been out of the office for months and has avoided the spotlight, Trump is STILL talking trash about him as just last night at a CPAC conference, he mocked Sessions by mimicking his southern accent and giving credibility to reports that Trump once called Sessions "mentally retarded" and is a "dumb Southerner."

And you guys wonder how I can come to the conclusion that in addition to those types of personality traits that Trump is also a racist.

https://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-tr ... story.html

[burrrton]

And you guys wonder how I can come to the conclusion that in addition to those types of personality traits that Trump is also a racist.

Being a narcissistic dick doesn't make you a racist.

The evidence for the former is unmistakable and overwhelming. The evidence for the latter is, well, what we've seen in the other thread.

You're cheapening the term.

[Hawktawk]

Good point about Jeff Sessions RD. Not only did sessions become the first sitting senator to don a dumb ass MAGA hat and endorse him but he did his bidding implementing his draconian racist policies on immigration to a T. His recusal was absolutely the right and only thing to do after having been part of the campaign and perjuring himself concerning Kysliak. As far as I can tell he has yet to say anything negative about trump . And trump mocks his southern accent and the dumbasses in the south will still support him. If anything else his rambling disjointed 2 hour rant at Gopac lends credence to my contention the man is stark raving nuts up there sweating like a pig rambling on incoherently . He should probably have snorted a little more adderal for that speech. His adoring throng should think about the lesson of sessions. It’s a matter of time but the trump party is going to be a major loser.

[RiverDog]

Being a narcissistic dick doesn't make you a racist.

Of course, it doesn't. But it sure seems to fit, doesn't it?

But I don't want to sidetrack the discussion again. The point is that Trump's shameless brown nosing of Kim is just the latest example of his complete lack of sensitivity to the plight of any human being or groups of human beings outside of those in his immediate family.

[RiverDog]

Good point about Jeff Sessions RD. Not only did sessions become the first sitting senator to don a dumb ass MAGA hat and endorse him but he did his bidding implementing his draconian racist policies on immigration to a T. His recusal was absolutely the right and only thing to do after having been part of the campaign and perjuring himself concerning Kysliak. As far as I can tell he has yet to say anything negative about trump . And trump mocks his southern accent and the dumbasses in the south will still support him. If anything else his rambling disjointed 2 hour rant at Gopac lends credence to my contention the man is stark raving nuts up there sweating like a pig rambling on incoherently . He should probably have snorted a little more adderal for that speech. His adoring throng should think about the lesson of sessions. It’s a matter of time but the trump party is going to be a major loser.

After Trump's treatment of Sessions, a person with any kind of political options at all would have to think twice about accepting a job within the Administration. That's what worries me most about the people he surrounds himself with, that as burrton pointed out, the only requirement is that you swear ever living loyalty to one man, almost like a mafia family. He surrounds himself with nothing but a bunch of yes men that will not give him the honest opinions necessary to make good, informed decisions which goes back to my complaints about his management style.

[Aseahawkfan]

Trump doesn't give a bit of rubbish about any of those people. He'll say nice things when he's trying to grease them for a deal. He'll say hard things when he's trying to pressure them. He'll attack them when they attack him. His salesman attitude is very apparent all the time. Trump does read people and situations very well. It's how he won.

Don't get it twisted that Trump saying some nice things in the press about Putin, Kim, or anyone else or saying mean things about anyone means much. If it gets the deal one is all he cares about. As far as all the other stuff, it's just gamesmanship to him. If he thinks complimenting you will improve the situation for negotiation, he will do it. If he thinks playing hardball will improve the situation, then he does that.

Americans taking anything he says publically as some example of what he really thinks are pretty clueless. Trump is making deals. He'll do what he sees fit. I'd put more trust in his judgment of people than almost anyone else I've seen in office in recent years. Trump is being harder and more aggressive with our world competition than most presidents. He's a lot better at negotiating as well. I hope he gets us some good deals. Looks like he's close with China.

[burrrton]

If he thinks complimenting you will improve the situation for negotiation, he will do it. If he thinks playing hardball will improve the situation, then he does that.

I'm willing to accept that he may negotiate much differently than most, but he wasn't negotiating with Sessions or Omarosa(sp?) or the myriad others he insulted like a 3rd-grader once it became obvious they weren't in lockstep with him.

You can't chalk all his truly bizarre behavior up to 4-dimensional chess.

[RiverDog]

Trump doesn't give a bit of rubbish about any of those people. He'll say nice things when he's trying to grease them for a deal. He'll say hard things when he's trying to pressure them. He'll attack them when they attack him. His salesman attitude is very apparent all the time. Trump does read people and situations very well. It's how he won.

Don't get it twisted that Trump saying some nice things in the press about Putin, Kim, or anyone else or saying mean things about anyone means much. If it gets the deal one is all he cares about. As far as all the other stuff, it's just gamesmanship to him. If he thinks complimenting you will improve the situation for negotiation, he will do it. If he thinks playing hardball will improve the situation, then he does that.

Americans taking anything he says publically as some example of what he really thinks are pretty clueless. Trump is making deals. He'll do what he sees fit. I'd put more trust in his judgment of people than almost anyone else I've seen in office in recent years. Trump is being harder and more aggressive with our world competition than most presidents. He's a lot better at negotiating as well. I hope he gets us some good deals. Looks like he's close with China.

Perhaps it's just an impression, but what I worry about Trump is that his ego tells him that he knows better than anyone else what a good deal is or isn't no matter what the subject is. His business experience might serve him well in economic issues, but he can't rely on that kind of intuition for foreign policy that involves military considerations that he's not familiar with. Combine that with his lack of character judgement and he could get us in a real mess by taking guys like Kim and Putin for their word.

There shouldn't be a lot of surprises at summits. The staffs of both parties should be talking for months if not years, brief their leaders as to what is and isn't going to be on the table, and if the basics are palatable, they schedule a summit to iron out any remaining differences. I'm glad Trump walked out on the summit, but he shouldn't have ever agreed to meet him in the first place if there wasn't a good prospect for getting a deal done. Perhaps he was desperate to get a "win" to take attention away from his domestic troubles.

[RiverDog]

Another curious decision is Trump's canceling annual joint military exercises with South Korea that have been going on for years and that the Pentagon considers essential to maintaining our readiness. The North Koreans have hated those exercises going on in their backyard, and it's unclear why Trump would simply cancel them without any apparent concessions from Kim.

[c_hawkbob]

Another curious decision is Trump's canceling annual joint military exercises with South Korea that have been going on for years and that the Pentagon considers essential to maintaining our readiness. The North Koreans have hated those exercises going on in their backyard, and it's unclear why Trump would simply cancel them without any apparent concessions from Kim.

Kim, as much a simple minded goofball as he seems, has played Trump like a drum. Now he's back to readying his launch facilities to resume testing.

[RiverDog]

Another curious decision is Trump's canceling annual joint military exercises with South Korea that have been going on for years and that the Pentagon considers essential to maintaining our readiness. The North Koreans have hated those exercises going on in their backyard, and it's unclear why Trump would simply cancel them without any apparent concessions from Kim.

Kim, as much a simple minded goofball as he seems, has played Trump like a drum. Now he's back to readying his launch facilities to resume testing.

Yea, well you know that Kim is "quite a guy."

[Aseahawkfan]

Kim, as much a simple minded goofball as he seems, has played Trump like a drum. Now he's back to readying his launch facilities to resume testing.

Is there some story on this? Or is this an assumption?

[Aseahawkfan]

Yea, well you know that Kim is "quite a guy."

And this is different from all the other scumbags we've coddled over the years across Republican and Democratic presidencies? Now you're unhappy we're not harder on Kim, but are completely ok with how we've handled all the other dictators?

[c_hawkbob]

Kim, as much a simple minded goofball as he seems, has played Trump like a drum. Now he's back to readying his launch facilities to resume testing.

Is there some story on this? Or is this an assumption?

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/05/worl ... -site.html

[Aseahawkfan]

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/05/world/asia/north-korea-missile-site.html

The little worm Kim just keeps playing games. He doesn't care. He's backed by China. He knows any attack by the United States is likely to be answered by China. He'll never comply with the U.S. as long as China is backing him. Trump thinks he can do what no other president has been able to do and it likely won't happen. The NK regime will never change as long as they are a vassal of China. China couldn't take the loss of prestige just like Russia doesn't want to lose more of its vassal states like Ukraine or Syria. That's the game.

Just as long as he doesn't get us into a deal a lame as Obama did with Iraq, I'll be ok. If he just signs some trash deal while the nation in question builds up cash and connections to make even better bombs, I'll despise him like I do Obama.

[RiverDog]

Yea, well you know that Kim is "quite a guy."

And this is different from all the other scumbags we've coddled over the years across Republican and Democratic presidencies? Now you're unhappy we're not harder on Kim, but are completely ok with how we've handled all the other dictators?

Looks like your back to the two wrongs makes a right argument, defending Trump by claiming "everyone else has coddled them, too."

But that's not the point. The point is that Trump brags about how well he can judge people, how he doesn't need an army of advisors, that him and his counterpart can sit down together and cut a deal with no more than a couple interpeters in the room. He thinks it's no different than being in a board room with some other CEO. He blows kisses at Kim and the first thing that happens is that Kim turns around and starts readying his launch facilities for more testing, which was the only victory Trump had in the previous negotiations.

The busted summit should never have gotten to this point. What should have happened is what I outlined above, that the lower level staff members should have done most of the negotiating based on the framework their leaders gave them, the POTUS reviews the proposal and if it looks do-able, they schedule a summit to sign the document. There should be no surprises. If the two leaders can't come to terms, then don't schedule a summit. Reagan made this mistake when he met Gorbachev in Iceland when he agreed to a hastily arranged summit. He got blindsided by a proposal he didn't like and left empty handed.

But that's not how Trump does things. He basically goes into these things blind and when he gets confronted with an obviously unacceptable proposal of dropping sanctions with nothing in return, he rightfully walks out but in the process, he embarrasses Kim. It's another example of Trump's seat-of-the-pants, winging it management style. It's another example of Trump not having done his homework.

[idhawkman]

Perhaps it's just an impression, but what I worry about Trump is that his ego tells him that he knows better than anyone else what a good deal is or isn't no matter what the subject is. His business experience might serve him well in economic issues, but he can't rely on that kind of intuition for foreign policy that involves military considerations that he's not familiar with. Combine that with his lack of character judgement and he could get us in a real mess by taking guys like Kim and Putin for their word.

There shouldn't be a lot of surprises at summits. The staffs of both parties should be talking for months if not years, brief their leaders as to what is and isn't going to be on the table, and if the basics are palatable, they schedule a summit to iron out any remaining differences. I'm glad Trump walked out on the summit, but he shouldn't have ever agreed to meet him in the first place if there wasn't a good prospect for getting a deal done. Perhaps he was desperate to get a "win" to take attention away from his domestic troubles.

Judging this is like predicting the outcome of an NFL game after the first quarter. MAYBE, he went to the summit specifically to get up and walk out. MAYBE he considers that any easing of sanctions (no matter how small) for anything but total denuklearization is a failure. That would be doing the same thing that Obama did in Iran. The goal is total elimination of nuclear weapons, not degraded for a period of time while you rebuild your population and restock your stock piles.

MAYBE, Trump learned from the Vietnam war where the N. Vietnamese would sit down in Paris for peace talks while reinforcing their depleted forces and restocked their food and weapons supplies. Once they got those full, they'd get up and walk out. It took Henry Kissinger to start the B-52 bombs again anytime the N. Vietnamese would balk at talks to get them to seriously give up POWs, etc.

[idhawkman]

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/05/world/asia/north-korea-missile-site.html

The little worm Kim just keeps playing games. He doesn't care. He's backed by China. He knows any attack by the United States is likely to be answered by China. He'll never comply with the U.S. as long as China is backing him. Trump thinks he can do what no other president has been able to do and it likely won't happen. The NK regime will never change as long as they are a vassal of China. China couldn't take the loss of prestige just like Russia doesn't want to lose more of its vassal states like Ukraine or Syria. That's the game.

Just as long as he doesn't get us into a deal a lame as Obama did with Iraq, I'll be ok. If he just signs some trash deal while the nation in question builds up cash and connections to make even better bombs, I'll despise him like I do Obama.

Don't bet on China defending N. Korea. Dig a bit deeper and look at what the Tarrifs on China have done to their military. Trump may be baiting both N. Korea and China into something that will be GRAND! He's just about agitated these situations to the brink which is when GREAT deals get done.

Also, Trump abruptly ending the Vietnam meeting shows China that he is willing to still walk away and is not interested in a "deal" for the sake of a "deal".

[idhawkman]

Looks like your back to the two wrongs makes a right argument, defending Trump by claiming "everyone else has coddled them, too."

But that's not the point. The point is that Trump brags about how well he can judge people, how he doesn't need an army of advisors, that him and his counterpart can sit down together and cut a deal with no more than a couple interpeters in the room. He thinks it's no different than being in a board room with some other CEO. He blows kisses at Kim and the first thing that happens is that Kim turns around and starts readying his launch facilities for more testing, which was the only victory Trump had in the previous negotiations.

The busted summit should never have gotten to this point. What should have happened is what I outlined above, that the lower level staff members should have done most of the negotiating based on the framework their leaders gave them, the POTUS reviews the proposal and if it looks do-able, they schedule a summit to sign the document. There should be no surprises. If the two leaders can't come to terms, then don't schedule a summit. Reagan made this mistake when he met Gorbachev in Iceland when he agreed to a hastily arranged summit. He got blindsided by a proposal he didn't like and left empty handed.

But that's not how Trump does things. He basically goes into these things blind and when he gets confronted with an obviously unacceptable proposal of dropping sanctions with nothing in return, he rightfully walks out but in the process, he embarrasses Kim. It's another example of Trump's seat-of-the-pants, winging it management style. It's another example of Trump not having done his homework.

Your comments shows that you have never been a part of a massive deal and have no clue how they get done. Have you ever considered that the reason so many "deals" that are signed at summits fail because the underlings negotiated a terrible deal?

[Hawktawk]

Now Trump came out last sunday and said the Cohen hearings on capital hill may have had an effect on the lack of a deal at the NK summit.

Sorry buddy. you're the sleaziest Prez ever after being one of the sleaziest grifter businessmen so having scandals pop up constantly is party of the bargain. If you can't compartmentalize like BIll Clinton who looks like a saint at this point in comparison please resign.

Kim got what he really wanted even more than a cancellation of our annual readiness drills with SK. He got to sit on a stage with the leader of the free world blowing smoke blown up his ass with the Old Glory unfurled next to the NK star of evil totalitarianism. He got legitimacy.
This was a disaster for America, for democracy, for the free world. But Russia and China are smiling watching their little rube.

[idhawkman]

Sorry buddy. you're the sleaziest Prez ever after being one of the sleaziest grifter businessmen so having scandals pop up constantly is party of the bargain. If you can't compartmentalize like BIll Clinton who looks like a saint at this point in comparison please resign.

You have absolutely no idea what kind of damage Clinton did to this country. Stop with this nonsense.

Kim got what he really wanted even more than a cancellation of our annual readiness drills with SK. He got to sit on a stage with the leader of the free world blowing smoke blown up his ass with the Old Glory unfurled next to the NK star of evil totalitarianism. He got legitimacy.
This was a disaster for America, for democracy, for the free world. But Russia and China are smiling watching their little rube.

He's our president! I could care less what the rest of the world thinks he is to them. Again, this aint over yet.

[Aseahawkfan]

But that's not the point. The point is that Trump brags about how well he can judge people, how he doesn't need an army of advisors, that him and his counterpart can sit down together and cut a deal with no more than a couple interpeters in the room. He thinks it's no different than being in a board room with some other CEO. He blows kisses at Kim and the first thing that happens is that Kim turns around and starts readying his launch facilities for more testing, which was the only victory Trump had in the previous negotiations.

The busted summit should never have gotten to this point. What should have happened is what I outlined above, that the lower level staff members should have done most of the negotiating based on the framework their leaders gave them, the POTUS reviews the proposal and if it looks do-able, they schedule a summit to sign the document. There should be no surprises. If the two leaders can't come to terms, then don't schedule a summit. Reagan made this mistake when he met Gorbachev in Iceland when he agreed to a hastily arranged summit. He got blindsided by a proposal he didn't like and left empty handed.

But that's not how Trump does things. He basically goes into these things blind and when he gets confronted with an obviously unacceptable proposal of dropping sanctions with nothing in return, he rightfully walks out but in the process, he embarrasses Kim. It's another example of Trump's seat-of-the-pants, winging it management style. It's another example of Trump not having done his homework.

STFU with this trash. We've been giving money to and coddling dictators for years and now you're bitching about Trump like he has some kind of playbook to follow other than most of the Republican and Democrat advises likely saying, "That's how we've done fit for years. If it ain't broke, don't fix it."

This garbage diplomacy has been happening for decades. I'm so incredibly tired of it. None of it changes at all. I have you posting this stupid crap like we're going to get a good deal with North Korea. We're not going to get a good deal. Kim is a scumbag raised to believe he is some kind of god. The idiots in North Korea keep following this guy because to do otherwise is to die. We shouldn't even be dealing with this idiot. We should cut that country off and say plainly, "We're going to wait until they die or we have to do something. North Korea is run by scum that Americans should have no interest in dealing with. They are completely against our values and their leadership is untenable."

Do you even realize the amount of money we give to scumbags? We even gave money and military support to the tiny nation of Tunisia. They play these games with us and have been doing so for decades. It's the same old story again and again and again. Let's pretend we're making a deal with someone that even deserves to have a deal made with them, put on a dog and pony show, then pretend something useful was accomplished while they keep screwing their people over.

Give me a fricking break pretending there is some kind of "way to do this." The fact is America coddles dictators. We put on a big show and they put on their show, at the end of the day the common man's existence in both nations isn't much changed. They still live in a scumbag dictatorship and we still live in America.

You want to criticize Trump for something, go back to criticizing his BS big talk rubbish. At least that is real, the rest of is trash you're making up to justify your dumb view. I'm sick of it. We haven't had a president yet since I've been alive that didn't do a ton of stupid diplomacy deals with scumbags whether it's Iran-Contra, El Salvador, and other trash with Reagan, Clinton selling the lives of 10000 people in Bosnia and coddling Serbians, screwing up in Somalia, Obama and Iran, Bush Jr. and his stupid wars, and the list is so long that it would be pages of us wasting time, money, and American lives dealing with scumbags overseas. Those would be just the well-publicized events, not stuff like sending a billion dollars in military aid to a scumbag kleptocrat in Tunisia or the numerous times both parties have glossed over Saudi Arabia and the other oil rich scum we shrug about.

So give me a break already about "how American diplomacy should be done." America's been doing stupid crap on the world scale for ages. Evil, stupid crap as they "govern from afar" as the "leader of the free world." Or whatever rubbish you lap up thinking things are ok and are balance book isn't heavily in the red as far as how many scumbags we support and make stupid deals with that treat their people in a way we wouldn't even begin to tolerate here.

[Aseahawkfan]

Your comments shows that you have never been a part of a massive deal and have no clue how they get done. Have you ever considered that the reason so many "deals" that are signed at summits fail because the underlings negotiated a terrible deal?

Why you think American should deal with pieces of trash like Kim Jon Il as a supposed "conservative, "I have no idea. Kim is a scumbag that rules over people like some kind of evil god. He can go rot. We should cut them off and put them on the "You do not exist" list and we are waiting for your scumbag regime to die.

[Hawktawk]

Why you think American should deal with pieces of trash like Kim Jon Il as a supposed "conservative, "I have no idea. Kim is a scumbag that rules over people like some kind of evil god. He can go rot. We should cut them off and put them on the "You do not exist" list and we are waiting for your scumbag regime to die.

A sea you know I've about had it with you calling fellow forum member stupid, dumb, in my case loony and so forth. People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw rocks.

Let me tell you something. As a bipolar man watching you operate in cyberspace, saying you didn't vote for trump(false) but has the talking points down pat ragging on posters for criticizing Trump for clumsily and ineffectively and naively sucking up to despots in ways never seen before then the very next post you criticize the president sucking up to despots....

seek help buddy, you're more bipolar than I am x10. Whatever, just dispense with the name calling OK? I don't think there is a dumb, stupid or loony person on this website even though we disagree strongly on certain things.

[Hawktawk]

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/0 ... te-images/
The only "concession" Chump got out of his "love affair" with a sawed off little rocket man is apparently going bye bye. Another dumpster fire raging out of control

[RiverDog]

(To RiverDog)Your comments shows that you have never been a part of a massive deal and have no clue how they get done.

So I'm clueless, huh? As if you have some exclusive, inside knowledge of multinational bargaining. I guess I should just stop commenting and let you have the floor all to yourself since you seem to know so much more than the rest of us morons.

(To Hawktalk)You have absolutely no idea what kind of damage Clinton did to this country. Stop with this nonsense.

Again, you are telling others not to express their opinion and are suggesting that your knowledge and opinions are so far superior to others that the rest of us should just go home and let you tell us what we should be thinking.

(to RiverDog) STFU with this trash.

I thought we were friends. Is that how you talk to your friends in real life, by telling them to STFU?

The two of you are going way over the top in your criticisms and getting far too personal. You're baiting others into responding in kind, and I'm simply not going there. If there is any value to my participation, two of you need to please stop it or I'm done. My tolerance for your lack of respect is running thin.

[Aseahawkfan]

A sea you know I've about had it with you calling fellow forum member stupid, dumb, in my case loony and so forth. People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw rocks.

Let me tell you something. As a bipolar man watching you operate in cyberspace, saying you didn't vote for trump(false) but has the talking points down pat ragging on posters for criticizing Trump for clumsily and ineffectively and naively sucking up to despots in ways never seen before then the very next post you criticize the president sucking up to despots....

seek help buddy, you're more bipolar than I am x10. Whatever, just dispense with the name calling OK? I don't think there is a dumb, stupid or loony person on this website even though we disagree strongly on certain things.

All I do is literally post historical fact as to how America has operated for years. You and others choose to ignore it to believe whatever little fantasy you are currently building in your mind.

I'm incredibly tired of the way Americans ignore their history to create some vision of the world when we were better. A vision that is not supported by recorded history unless you gloss over the loads of scumbag acts and deals we've made to remain involved in world affairs and I guess keep our power.

I did not vote for Trump or Obama or Romney. I haven't cast a presidential vote for anyone since I voted for GW Jr.s second term, which I did only because he needed to finish the BS he started. I don't like any of these folks. I just don't like the hypocrisy of people like you that think Reagan was great, while he didn't do a whole lot different than Trump other than speak better. Trump's biggest crimes are being a rich narcissistic jerk with a big mouth. Other than he pretty much hasn't changed much for the better or worse. He inherited a very good economy that he juiced up even more with tax cuts. His diplomacy is pretty standard. As far as his acknowledgment of Jerusalem as Israel's capital is just saying what every American politician already privately believed. It's all just a big dog and pony show that for whatever reason gets you all wound up whereas it just further emphasizes how few Americans really want to know what is going on in their government if the face of the country knows how to smile and speak nicely. That is just sad.

[Aseahawkfan]

RiverdogI thought we were friends. Is that how you talk to your friends in real life, by telling them to STFU?

The two of you are going way over the top in your criticisms and getting far too personal. You're baiting others into responding in kind, and I'm simply not going there. If there is any value to my participation, two of you need to please stop it or I'm done. My tolerance for your lack of respect is running thin.

Sorry for that comment. I must have been in a horrible mood that day. I think I'm very tired of seeing the constant attacks when exactly the same type of BS diplomacy was practiced in the past and just glossed over. Really, North Korea has been a problem since the Korean War ended. It's not going to change. Kim Jong Un's just another dictator stirring the pot to get things for himself. These dictators have done this so often that as an American it's embarrassing that we still offer to sit at the table with them or send them any money.

We just keep sitting down with these scum and sending them money for no other reason than some illusion that we care about our values when our politicians really don't. At this point all it seems like the politicians care about is maintaining some fake prestige that comes with having a deal with every nation in the world, even it doesn't fit what we believe at all. When do we stop sending money to scum? If we make a deal with North Korea and brings in more money, what does that do? Give him more money to oppress his own people? We get him to maybe denuclearize by bribing him and then uses the money to further cement his power and screw his people? It's like a lose-lose situation that we're doing just so our clown president can say he made some deal that supposedly helped us. It really did almost nothing and is just sending millions or billions to some oppressive dictator piece of trash. That seems to be modern diplomacy.

[RiverDog]

Sorry for that comment. I must have been in a horrible mood that day.

I wasn't necessarily looking for an apology, but thanks all the same. I was getting tired of seeing some posters expressing their opinions as if it were the honest to God truth while dismissing anyone that disagreed with them as uninformed or unqualified. We all have different experiences and draw our opinions from different POV's. Expressing them should be encouraged, not discouraged.

I think I'm very tired of seeing the constant attacks when exactly the same type of BS diplomacy was practiced in the past and just glossed over. Really, North Korea has been a problem since the Korean War ended. It's not going to change. Kim Jong Un's just another dictator stirring the pot to get things for himself. These dictators have done this so often that as an American it's embarrassing that we still offer to sit at the table with them or send them any money.

Sometimes diplomacy requires "some" stroking of an evil dictator. Harry Truman once referred to Joseph Stalin, who purged undesirables at an even higher rate than Hitler, as "old Joe." But IMO Trump went way overboard, both when he was mocking Kim as "rocket man" and during and following this recent summit where it seemed as if he was talking about some golfing buddy of his. There was no need for him to engage in such complementary language that was perceived as an insult to so many. It's another example of Trump not measuring what he says before he says it and just "wings it."

We just keep sitting down with these scum and sending them money for no other reason than some illusion that we care about our values when our politicians really don't. At this point all it seems like the politicians care about is maintaining some fake prestige that comes with having a deal with every nation in the world, even it doesn't fit what we believe at all. When do we stop sending money to scum? If we make a deal with North Korea and brings in more money, what does that do? Give him more money to oppress his own people? We get him to maybe denuclearize by bribing him and then uses the money to further cement his power and screw his people? It's like a lose-lose situation that we're doing just so our clown president can say he made some deal that supposedly helped us. It really did almost nothing and is just sending millions or billions to some oppressive dictator piece of trash. That seems to be modern diplomacy.

Yea, we once supported Sadaam because he was fighting against Iran, then a short time later, we bombing the crap out of him and killing a whole bunch of innocents. But there are times, such as during WW2 when we teamed up with Stalin in order to defeat the Nazis, where we have to choose between the frying pan or the fire. That describes where we're at with China. They are communist regime, very inhumane but we have no choice but to recognize and deal with them if we want to co exist. One of the reasons Jimmy Carter was a failure was because he tended to put all relationships on a personal, moral level rather than a practical one.

[idhawkman]

Why you think American should deal with pieces of trash like Kim Jon Il as a supposed "conservative, "I have no idea. Kim is a scumbag that rules over people like some kind of evil god. He can go rot. We should cut them off and put them on the "You do not exist" list and we are waiting for your scumbag regime to die.

Yeah, that's what the brits did in the first and second world war. STicking your head in the sand and singing la, la, la, la doesn't work. STand up and confront it as Trump is doing but make sure you don't just have a bunch of candy for them. You have to also provide a big stick.

[idhawkman]

I'm sure you took offense to my comments River, but I've been a part of too many international deals both from a diplomatic and from a sales perspective. There's not much difference between the two, also. To sit by and watch a couple people post on how to do these huge multi-layered deals and second guess another person who has done multiple huge international deals just can't be let go. I won't ask HT to post what he knows about the damage that Clinton did as I'm sure it wouldn't come close to what has been done. I'm confident in this because much of the damage is still highly classified because of the sources and methods it took to gather the info. Suffice it to say, the US was sold to the highest bidder for quite some time now. This is not speculation nor is it belittling. It is just facts. I know that won't sit well with you but it is the truth. I know my opinion on these subjects about big deals is not in line with your ideas but my ideas will not be discounted because of it. I think if you sit back with an open mind and just consider that I might be right you'll see that this is not over yet.

[Aseahawkfan]

Sometimes diplomacy requires "some" stroking of an evil dictator. Harry Truman once referred to Joseph Stalin, who purged undesirables at an even higher rate than Hitler, as "old Joe." But IMO Trump went way overboard, both when he was mocking Kim as "rocket man" and during and following this recent summit where it seemed as if he was talking about some golfing buddy of his. There was no need for him to engage in such complementary language that was perceived as an insult to so many. It's another example of Trump not measuring what he says before he says it and just "wings it."

I don't see it. This all looks the same as always to me. You don't like Trump. Fine. But this is just the same tired garbage.

Yea, we once supported Sadaam because he was fighting against Iran, then a short time later, we bombing the crap out of him and killing a whole bunch of innocents. But there are times, such as during WW2 when we teamed up with Stalin in order to defeat the Nazis, where we have to choose between the frying pan or the fire. That describes where we're at with China. They are communist regime, very inhumane but we have no choice but to recognize and deal with them if we want to co exist. One of the reasons Jimmy Carter was a failure was because he tended to put all relationships on a personal, moral level rather than a practical one.

We do have a choice. It's making excuses for bad decisions that has led us to where we are. We shouldn't have dealt with Stalin. He was a scumbag. We helped empower him to kill even more people than the Nazis. So how is that a win? Then when Churchill and other generals like Patton wanted to take him out, we didn't do it. If you read, fact is FDR seemed to like Stalin and find his communist/socialist view more agreeable to his own. I won't rehash that rabbit hole since it is very, very deep, but we did not need Russia to beat the Nazis. It was just more of the BS diplomacy practiced back then by so many nations.

I recently read a Churchill biography. It showed how they thought back then. It was their desire to rule the world as much as possible. They made deals with all kinds of scum not for the betterment of humanity as a hole, but simply to continue holding power. America has been following that line of thinking for a long, long time now. It doesn't fit our values. It uses our tax dollars. All for what? To enrich and empower dictators bribing them for what? Not building nuclear weapons or giving their people food or killing our "enemies"? How many more excuses can we make for these people? I'm done making excuses. They did it for power. It does not benefit us at all. As an American I would never tolerate being treated like these dictators treat their people. I don't know how you can stomach sending billions to other nations leaders that murder their people.

[RiverDog]

I'm sure you took offense to my comments River, but I've been a part of too many international deals both from a diplomatic and from a sales perspective. There's not much difference between the two, also. To sit by and watch a couple people post on how to do these huge multi-layered deals and second guess another person who has done multiple huge international deals just can't be let go.

Then go find another forum on the state department website if you're so damned over qualified so as to be talking with such idiot, clueless novices such as those that frequent this venue.

You're talking down to me and the others, and I don't appreciate it. The comments I made were viable and well reasoned and unless you have some unique insider connection to the Trump state dept, were just as likely to have been the case as those you claim to be the correct and true version.

All I'm asking you to do is to quit reading us your resume and treat opinions and their posters with a little respect rather than dismissing them as "clueless." I don't think that is too much to ask.

[idhawkman]

Then go find another forum on the state department website if you're so damned over qualified so as to be talking with such idiot, clueless novices such as those that frequent this venue.

You're talking down to me and the others, and I don't appreciate it. The comments I made were viable and well reasoned and unless you have some unique insider connection to the Trump state dept, were just as likely to have been the case as those you claim to be the correct and true version.

All I'm asking you to do is to quit reading us your resume and treat opinions and their posters with a little respect rather than dismissing them as "clueless." I don't think that is too much to ask.

I think if you consider it, your position towards me is exactly the same as mine towards you.

[RiverDog]

I think if you consider it, your position towards me is exactly the same as mine towards you.

Don't think so, my friend. I never once said that you 'don't have a clue' or anything remotely similar that might insult your intelligence as you have mine, nor have I boasted of being a "person who has done multiple huge international deals" and used such unverifiable experience to suggest that my POV is superior to everyone else's....on anything. If you want to search the threads and show me where it was that I posted something of this nature directed at you that might have caused you to come to that conclusion, you'll have my apology.

[idhawkman]

Don't think so, my friend. I never once said that you 'don't have a clue' or anything remotely similar that might insult your intelligence as you have mine, nor have I boasted of being a "person who has done multiple huge international deals" and used such unverifiable experience to suggest that my POV is superior to everyone else's....on anything. If you want to search the threads and show me where it was that I posted something of this nature directed at you that might have caused you to come to that conclusion, you'll have my apology.

You can redirect all you want but you know well that I was sticking up for the way Trump is doing the negotiations vs your opinion on how to do them. I added my experience because I understand what he's trying to accomplish. My opinion of his approach is no different than your opinion of his approach.

[RiverDog]

Don't think so, my friend. I never once said that you 'don't have a clue' or anything remotely similar that might insult your intelligence as you have mine, nor have I boasted of being a "person who has done multiple huge international deals" and used such unverifiable experience to suggest that my POV is superior to everyone else's....on anything. If you want to search the threads and show me where it was that I posted something of this nature directed at you that might have caused you to come to that conclusion, you'll have my apology.

You can redirect all you want but you know well that I was sticking up for the way Trump is doing the negotiations vs your opinion on how to do them. I added my experience because I understand what he's trying to accomplish.

So any one of us that says something negative about Trump will cause you to retaliate by directing your anger at another by saying something like "you don't have a clue"? Are you that emotionally bonded to Donald Trump that you can't take any criticism of him without resorting to personal attacks?

My opinion of his approach is no different than your opinion of his approach.

Absolutely true, except that you're not stating your POV as an opinion. By telling me that "you don't have a clue" then qualifying your own opinion by citing your unverifiable experience on the subject, you are discounting my POV while stating yours as a given.

All I'm asking you to do is to tone it down some. Surely a person of your intellect realizes that saying something like "you don't have a clue" might inflame an otherwise civil conversation.