Country over party

[Hawktawk]

So it’s on. We are already hearing how if radical Joe and Kamala win you will lose your guns, your faith , your communities . Same old scare tactics. I always bought it before the mental orange baboon came along. I’ve lost my Zags, Cougs, maybe my hawks. I can’t go to a nightclub or go hear a band. I can’t go inside or in a crowd without a mask.

Our nation has lost 170k lives and much of its prosperity. We have lost the respect of our former allies and we are largely banned from international travel. Men’s hearts are full of fury towards one another worse than ever before . America’s not been great. America is in terrible shape, already 2.85 trillion in deficit spending this year after running 1.3 trillion annually in trumps term.
n hindsight Obama had 8 years to get my guns etc and didn’t . He inherited 9% unemployment and handed off 4.7. Inherited a halved market and handed off a 7 year run. Battled 2 pandemics including terrifying Ebola and handed off an excellent pandemic plan trump abandoned .

In hindsight I’m embarrassed how I felt about him and would take him right now. I’d take anyone , Hillary , anyone

I am no Democrat shill and the more progressive they act the more nauseated I will be but it’s a clear choice. Sleepy Joe sounds good to me. We can’t handle 4 more years and might not make it to Inauguration Day with this clown infesting the office .

[Aseahawkfan]

If Trump hornswaggles America again, I will be shocked. If this Dumb as Dirt, conspiracy believing, whining billionaire reality TV star who somehow convinced America to vote him into president wins again, I will fear for this nation. There was a time when America wouldn't have accepted this kind of rude, pugnacious, narcissistic, and ridiculous behavior. You know that saying, "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me." If Trump wins again, I guess this is the kind of behavior Americans find tolerable by a president.

I'm hoping only the diehard right wing believers that believe these parties are much different and the Trump worshippers will follow him, while sensible Americans will want some new leadership, preferably quieter and more political.

I wish these fricking protests would stop. They are scaring people at this point. If they give Trump the juice to beat Biden, then the Democrats have shot themselves in the foot again. Defunding the police and allowing protesters and looters to "govern" using mob power is a losing issue.

[Hawktawk]

I completely agree with your take on these demonstrations. Enough is enough . Some of these one issue activists really don’t give a damn about anything but their causes . It’s clear the Trumpanzees are going to run on their law and order platform and try to paint everyone with the same brush as activists in 3 cities at this point . Their problem is neither Harris or Biden favor defunding police . Harris was leading the largest police force in the nation 3 years ago. But this protest stuff needs to go away . It’s trumps only chance imo.

[RiverDog]

In hindsight I’m embarrassed how I felt about him (Obama) and would take him right now. I’d take anyone , Hillary , anyone

I am no Democrat shill and the more progressive they act the more nauseated I will be but it’s a clear choice. Sleepy Joe sounds good to me. We can’t handle 4 more years and might not make it to Inauguration Day with this clown infesting the office .

Nice confessional. I've moved somewhat to the left as well, primarily because of Trump but also due to this pandemic as it has really woke me up as to the far right's reluctance to trust modern science and medicine even when confronted with almost irrefutable evidence. I saw a survey where close to 30% of Americans, mostly Deplorables, won't get the coronavirus vaccine when it becomes available. That's outrageous as we need about 95% to put this thing to bed like we did with polio.

I just got back from a trip to the Oregon coast, and it's amazing as to the behavior of people in the liberal areas vs. red neck heaven on the east side. On the west side, at least half were wearing masks even when they were outdoors and well outside the 6' distancing recommendation. Not so on the east side. About half the people I saw in rest areas and public bathrooms had them on. I don't want to associate myself with being the typical conservative anymore.

[Hawktawk]

Dittos RD. I’m embarrased I drank the cool aid as long as I did . Just saw a 911 truther as well as a racist islamaphobe will likely win a seat in Georgia . And she’s an attractive woman the president calls “ a future star of the party” trumpanzee party maybe if this is what’s become of the party of Lincoln and Reagan count me out.

[RiverDog]

Dittos RD. I’m embarrased I drank the cool aid as long as I did . Just saw a 911 truther as well as a racist islamaphobe will likely win a seat in Georgia . And she’s an attractive woman the president calls “ a future star of the party” trumpanzee party maybe if this is what’s become of the party of Lincoln and Reagan count me out.

We'll see what happens to the Republican Party after the election. The national polls seem to have tightened a bit but Biden still has healthy leads in the big swing states, ie MI, PA, and FL. With both conventions being abbreviated versions of the floor stomping, balloon drops and waving placards of the past, I don't think either candidate will get their typical post convention bump. Biden's made his VP choice and it hasn't caused a seismic shift in the race, at least not yet. I'm still expecting a sizeable win by Biden and for the R's to lose the Senate.

It will be interesting to see which Republicans are left standing after the election. McConnell is in a tough fight for his seat. Lindsey Graham's race is now rated a toss up. I hope I'm wrong, but the R's could lose 6-8 Senate seats if the current trend continues. The party is likely to find itself completely on the sidelines and will have to re-define themselves.

[NorthHawk]

The Republican party is not currently the party people think of as Trump has formed it into his own
entity. He's not a Republican, he's a power hungry autocrat. He's developed a cult like following
where people believe in everything he says without question. It wouldn't surprise me if they followed
his orders to drink poison like Jim Jones. The Republican Party may end up either splitting in two or
at least end up in turmoil when Trump is done, but this years election is about democracy and freedom.
Sadly, I don't think that even the attempted destruction of the Post Office will sway a lot of people. It's a
page out of Mussolini's dictator's playbook to slowly eliminate the bastions of society and accumulate power
so that free elections are difficult to run.

[RiverDog]

The Republican party is not currently the party people think of as Trump has formed it into his own
entity. He's not a Republican, he's a power hungry autocrat. He's developed a cult like following
where people believe in everything he says without question. It wouldn't surprise me if they followed
his orders to drink poison like Jim Jones. The Republican Party may end up either splitting in two or
at least end up in turmoil when Trump is done, but this years election is about democracy and freedom.
Sadly, I don't think that even the attempted destruction of the Post Office will sway a lot of people. It's a
page out of Mussolini's dictator's playbook to slowly eliminate the bastions of society and accumulate power
so that free elections are difficult to run.

Assuming that Trump loses in November, I don't think it will take the R's long to regroup, perhaps as early as the 2022 midterms. They were faced with the same situation in 1976 in the post Watergate era. By 1980, they had reshaped themselves and went on to dominate politics for the next 40 years. Only twice since then, in 1992 and in 2008, did the Dems control both branches of government.

They won't split up. To do so would be suicide. There is simply no room for a 3 party system under the current winner-take-all provision in Presidential elections. The only role for a 3rd party is that of a spoiler ala Ross Perot, usually at the expense of the candidate that is closest to their own ideology.

[NorthHawk]

I think there is some comparison to Watergate and its fallout, but I get the impression that
there is a lot of Trumpers who don't believe either the traditional Republican party positions or
the Democrat positions are what they want or believe. Maybe over time you are right and
the mask of the cult will be removed, but for some it will never die. And with the instant
communication and ability for groups to share their beliefs (unlike days past when there was
only 1 outlier in a community and they didn't or couldn't find a like minded person who
thought similarly) these groups may be around for a long while and not support the traditional
party.
Another quality of the Watergate situation that isn't present today was the majority of the politicians
in the Republican party put country over Nixon and party. That's not happening today.
But maybe you are right and they will just fall in line.

[RiverDog]

I think there is some comparison to Watergate and its fallout, but I get the impression that
there is a lot of Trumpers who don't believe either the traditional Republican party positions or
the Democrat positions are what they want or believe. Maybe over time you are right and
the mask of the cult will be removed, but for some it will never die. And with the instant
communication and ability for groups to share their beliefs (unlike days past when there was
only 1 outlier in a community and they didn't or couldn't find a like minded person who
thought similarly) these groups may be around for a long while and not support the traditional
party.
Another quality of the Watergate situation that isn't present today was the majority of the politicians
in the Republican party put country over Nixon and party. That's not happening today.
But maybe you are right and they will just fall in line.

I'm not completely sure that my Watergate comparison is valid, either. A lot has changed since the 70's: There was no internet, no social media, far fewer and almost exclusively liberal media outlets. And you're right about Nixon. He did next to nothing in his landslide victory in 1972 to help Republican candidates and as a consequence, so it was an easy decision for them to throw him under the bus when the Watergate scandal broke wide open. I don't see that happening with Trump as most R's are still fearful of his constituency. But nevertheless, I don't think that the Trump worshiper cult faction of the party will split away.

[I-5]

Just like we've never had a president like Trump, we've also never had an ex-president like Trump. If anyone thinks he's going to peacefully fade back into private life, they're kidding themselves. The key will be if he loses, how the the power players in the republican party treat him. But even without power, I think Trump is still dangerous because of his looney bin cult worshippers who have bought into his cult. Are they going to simply wake up when he's out of office, or stay with him?

[NorthHawk]

Just like we've never had a president like Trump, we've also never had an ex-president like Trump. If anyone thinks he's going to peacefully fade back into private life, they're kidding themselves. The key will be if he loses, how the the power players in the republican party treat him. But even without power, I think Trump is still dangerous because of his looney bin cult worshippers who have bought into his cult. Are they going to simply wake up when he's out of office, or stay with him?

It wouldn't surprise me if he goes this election that within 6 months he gets approval for a new hotel in Moscow in a prime location.
How better to pay back "Their man in the White House"?
That might burst some of those cult bubbles once he abandons them.

[RiverDog]

Just like we've never had a president like Trump, we've also never had an ex-president like Trump. If anyone thinks he's going to peacefully fade back into private life, they're kidding themselves. The key will be if he loses, how the the power players in the republican party treat him. But even without power, I think Trump is still dangerous because of his looney bin cult worshippers who have bought into his cult. Are they going to simply wake up when he's out of office, or stay with him?

That's an interesting proposition, one that I'm looking forward to see how it plays out.

What I think will happen is not much. I don't think Trump's "looney bin cult worshipers" amounts to all that many people. Most supporters are like Idahawkman. They're rational people with very conservative values. As was pointed out in another thread regarding evangelicals, a lot of them overlook Trump's personal faults simply because of his ability to influence public policy. They're not attached to the hip with him. They'll simply adapt some other candidate that shares their core beliefs, ie 2nd Amendment, anti immigration, pro defense, nationalistic, anti abortion, etc.

As far as Trump himself goes, he'll no doubt keep lighting up Twitter with plenty of silly tweets, but I doubt that we'll see him promoting other candidates or adapting any causes. He's as lazy as all get out and has no interest in promoting anyone but himself.

[I-5]

I think you’re squarely wrong on this, Riv. Trump the ex-president is not going to resemble anything like the old Trump. And I wasn’t lumping ID in with the crazy faction. I agree there are conservatives who will eventually leave him, but there is also definitely an extreme side to his base that is beyond reason. You and HT alluded to it on another thread. I’m talking about hardcore followers who consider Romney, Sasse, or any other republican who dare says anything critical of 45 a RINO.

[NorthHawk]

The thing about them thinking that about Romney, Sasse, and others is that
Trump is actually a RINO along with his ardent followers. They aren’t mainstream
Republicans if they follow Trumps lead as he does what’s best for Trump above
all else.

[RiverDog]

I think you’re squarely wrong on this, Riv. Trump the ex-president is not going to resemble anything like the old Trump. And I wasn’t lumping ID in with the crazy faction. I agree there are conservatives who will eventually leave him, but there is also definitely an extreme side to his base that is beyond reason. You and HT alluded to it on another thread. I’m talking about hardcore followers who consider Romney, Sasse, or any other republican who dare says anything critical of 45 a RINO.

Trump is too lazy and too uncaring to take up any cause that does not directly benefit him, and without a flag to rally around, the crazys will have to find some other person to carry the torch for them.

But we'll see. I've been wrong before.

[I-5]

Riv, I don’t think he would ever take up any cause that didn’t directly benefit him; I’m saying that he would burn the country to the ground if he thinks it would help him avoid prosecution, by gaslighting and getting his cult up in arms.

[Aseahawkfan]

I heard this same thing about Obama and Bush Jr. regarding coups or not leaving peacefully. I have no clue why there is always this faction of Americans that think some president is going to stay in office or cause trouble when they don't have any power to do so. Unless you have some proof the military, FBI, or some other faction that is capable of doing so is going to back a Trump coup, please wake up to the reality you can't launch a coup without military support. It cannot happen. Trump's going to leave office and go back to doing something else, like he always does. He's 74 years old. Has no real friends in Washington D.C. He'll wander off and go on to some new endeavor tweeting as he goes. Probably write a book about his time in the White House and make hay with that.

Trump's a prick, not a dictator.

[RiverDog]

Riv, I don’t think he would ever take up any cause that didn’t directly benefit him; I’m saying that he would burn the country to the ground if he thinks it would help him avoid prosecution, by gaslighting and getting his cult up in arms.

I agree that he would if he could, but without the power of the executive, most of Trump's crazys will have moved on.

As far as Trump's post presidency prosecution, I could be talked into a pardon if it included some sort of gag order in exchange. I'm tired of hearing from that buffoon, and subjecting us to more years long attention in spectacular trials is not going to help the country heal its wounds. I'm not like Hawktalk who literally wants blood, I just want him to leave.

[RiverDog]

I heard this same thing about Obama and Bush Jr. regarding coups or not leaving peacefully. I have no clue why there is always this faction of Americans that think some president is going to stay in office or cause trouble when they don't have any power to do so. Unless you have some proof the military, FBI, or some other faction that is capable of doing so is going to back a Trump coup, please wake up to the reality you can't launch a coup without military support. It cannot happen. Trump's going to leave office and go back to doing something else, like he always does. He's 74 years old. Has no real friends in Washington D.C. He'll wander off and go on to some new endeavor tweeting as he goes. Probably write a book about his time in the White House and make hay with that.

Trump's a prick, not a dictator.

I never heard of any rumors that Bush 43 and Obama would not leave peacefully had they lost their re-election bid, nor did they attempt in advance of their elections to de-legitimize the vote by spreading false information as Trump has by promoting completely baseless accusations about the security of mail-in voting that serves to fuel speculation that he won't simply step aside if he loses.

Personally, I think the likelihood of Trump's not leaving peacefully is relatively remote, but based on his personality, it's something that can't be completely dismissed, and while an attempt to stay in office by force would obviously be unsuccessful, I can imagine him inciting a protest and rioting in the wake of the election, especially during the current atmosphere of anything goes with regard to defying authorities. In any event, like everything else about his presidency, this is going to be a very unique transition period.

There are a lot of people out there that, with some justification, are unhappy with the cancel culture/BLM movement. A controversial election could be the match that sets off the powder keg. That's one of the problems with the government/police tepid reaction to the violence that has spun off from the BLM demonstrations in that they've now set a hands off precedent. If, for example, pro Trump groups decide to march on Washington or take over a downtown area of a major city and police/National Guard cracks down hard on them, the hypocrisy might cause even more violence.

[I-5]

I never heard anything about W or Obama potentially refusing to leave office. Did either of those 2 appoint a big time financial supporter to head the USPS and attempt to change the level of delivery prior to an election? As I said, we’ve never had a president like Trump, and we’ve never had an ex-president like Trump. He’s shown a level of pettiness never seen before as POTUS. Why would he change if voted out of office? As far as gag order in exchange for pardon, that sounds like a fantasy at best. Trump keeping his mouth shut is like asking the Pope to be less catholic.

[RiverDog]

As far as gag order in exchange for pardon, that sounds like a fantasy at best. Trump keeping his mouth shut is like asking the Pope to be less catholic.

Yeah, I know it's a pipe dream. Maybe if he just agreed to a 2 year suspension of his Twitter account. The point is getting him off the national stage. Prosecuting him just keeps him in the headlines.

I just got through reading a biography of Gerald Ford. Some of the harshest critics of his pardoning of Nixon, such as Bob Woodward, have since changed their minds and have agreed that it was the right thing to do. I think that the very same logic in Nixon's case can be applied to a Trump pardon, perhaps even greater as it would be a Democrat that would be issuing it and therefore have more of an effect of offering an olive branch and a plea to bury the hatchet than in Ford's pardon, which many suspected was the result of a deal or continuation of the cover-up.

[NorthHawk]

He was asked recently if he would leave if voted out and his response was something like we'll see, it depends on the situation and if the vote was fair.
No other President in recent history or maybe ever has even ventured towards that line. And we all know that he thinks the entire world is unfair to him.
So I think the chances are he will resist as much as possible including going to court in the hopes that he receives some loyalty from those he appointed.
The so called Deep State is now in place for Trump as he's put his thumbprint on most of the institutions to sway it in his favor.

[RiverDog]

No other President in recent history or maybe ever has even ventured towards that line (of refusing to accept the result of an election).

Perhaps nothing that involved an incumbent President, but the election of 2000 involved accusations from both sides of the two candidates trying to steal the election. There was also quite a controversy in 1960 that involved suspected wrongdoing in Texas and Illinois.

That's one of my dilemmas. I want Biden to beat the pants off Trump as it would make a contested election much less likely yet I don't want the Democrats to retake the Senate which would be the likely result of a Biden landslide.

[I-5]

Did W or Obama, or any president for that matter, ever tell americans not to trust the FBI, the press, the courts, and the post office?

[RiverDog]

Did W or Obama, or any president for that matter, ever tell americans not to trust the FBI, the press, the courts, and the post office?

Of course not. What's your point?

[c_hawkbob]

That it's different this time and we don't really know what's going to happen?

[RiverDog]

That it's different this time and we don't really know what's going to happen?

As if we really knew what was going to happen in 2000?

My point is that we've had contested elections before with people crying foul and it didn't undermine our country. It's become commonplace in close elections, such as in 1960, 2000, 2004, and 2016. The one difference this time is that Trump is stirring the pot ahead of the election. If it's close, there's going to be a donny brook that could very well end up in the Supreme Court like it did in 2000, and if recent examples of this court's collective behavior is an indicator of future decisions, I am confident that they'll make a fair decision based on facts and not on make believe conspiracy theories of the type Trump is trying to manufacture. I'm not as alarmed about it as you folks seem to be.

[c_hawkbob]

So you keep saying.

[Hawktawk]

Perhaps nothing that involved an incumbent President, but the election of 2000 involved accusations from both sides of the two candidates trying to steal the election. There was also quite a controversy in 1960 that involved suspected wrongdoing in Texas and Illinois.

That's one of my dilemmas. I want Biden to beat the pants off Trump as it would make a contested election much less likely yet I don't want the Democrats to retake the Senate which would be the likely result of a Biden landslide.

I absolutely want the Democrats to take it all. Or let me rephrase I want the trumpanzees to lose it all. I’m thankful it’s not sanders and warren up 9. But these senators like Moscow Mitch , lap dog Lindsay , Ron Johnson , john Kennedy . These MF know the president should have been removed from office . They have governed to protect a man with a 40% approval rating . They deserve to be wiped out . I will add to country over party country over ideology and legislation . Frankly with this massive bailout I feel more confident in Democrat’s distributing it than these grifters .

[RiverDog]

I absolutely want the Democrats to take it all. Or let me rephrase I want the trumpanzees to lose it all. I’m thankful it’s not sanders and warren up 9. But these senators like Moscow Mitch , lap dog Lindsay , Ron Johnson , john Kennedy . These MF know the president should have been removed from office . They have governed to protect a man with a 40% approval rating . They deserve to be wiped out . I will add to country over party country over ideology and legislation . Frankly with this massive bailout I feel more confident in Democrat’s distributing it than these grifters .

I wouldn't mind seeing McConnell and Graham lose their seats as I agree with you that they deserve it for their willful ignorance in their blind support of Trump. But I view it as a cutting off your nose to spite your face proposition. I want a divided government. Give me gridlock or give me death!

[I-5]

I'm not as alarmed about it as you folks seem to be.

Glad to know you have such a high tolerance for alarm. Maybe something will happen that he could have done something about as a leader but utterly fail to take seriously and cause thousands of american lives, and worse, continue to spew disinformation so that his die hard followers are still in denial that there is even a problem only until it affects their family.

[RiverDog]

I'm not as alarmed about it as you folks seem to be.

Glad to know you have such a high tolerance for alarm. Maybe something will happen that he could have done something about as a leader but utterly fail to take seriously and cause thousands of american lives, and worse, continue to spew disinformation so that his die hard followers are still in denial that there is even a problem only until it affects their family.

I never said anything about not taking the issue seriously. It's just that I have a little more confidence in our system of government than others might have. The states have over two months to get it figured out and have some pretty good models to work off of, such as ours here in Washington state where we've been voting exclusively by mail for well over a decade. Besides, what is it that you want me to do? Move to PA or MI so I can vote in a swing state? Have I not denounced Trump enough over the past 4 years to suit you? I can only cast one vote, and I've made it pretty clear who it is that I'm voting for.

Pelosi is calling the House back into session to address the USPS funding issue and grill the postmaster general about some of his recent statements. The volume of mail isn't going to be that much higher than normal and wouldn't approach what they have to deal with during the holiday season so I fail to see what all the hubub is about. Trump is doing what Trump does best: Spread misinformation and cause chaos.

The message should be to mail your ballot early so as to make sure that it gets received in time, and if you don't trust USPS, locate a ballot drop box and deposit your ballot there.

[I-5]

Not asking you to do anything, and I never said anyone wasn't taking it seriously. I was responding simply to your 'alarmed' statement. I believe in our system, too, despite Trump trying his best to game it.

[RiverDog]

Not asking you to do anything, and I never said anyone wasn't taking it seriously. I was responding simply to your 'alarmed' statement. I believe in our system, too, despite Trump trying his best to game it.

OK, fair enough. I was reading some sarcasm into your comments that apparently wasn't there. My apologies for going off on you.

One of the things about my make-up is that I try not to lose sleep over things that I have no control over. If I thought I could do something that is within the law and would expedite the removal of that POS, I would do it in a heartbeat. But it is what it is.

I still don't understand what all the fuss is over the USPS. If there's anything about this election that concerns me, it would be the states getting a vote by mail system up and running and with all the bugs worked out and be able to get ballots to those that want to vote via that method several weeks ahead of the election. The actual delivery of completed ballots would seem to be the easy part.

Its also unclear to me if either candidate would have an advantage if a mail in system isn't available. On the one hand, Trump voters, who are generally more dismissive of the virus, might be more inclined to vote in person despite any risks, but on the other hand, younger voters, who are more likely to vote for Biden, might be more dismissive of the risks than older voters that tend to vote for Trump.

[I-5]

One of the things about my make-up is that I try not to lose sleep over things that I have no control over.

I don't recall anyone saying they are losing sleep. This is just a forum about our beloved Hawks and Off Topic, neither of which we have any control over...yet here we are discussing it. That's all we're doing. That's the thing that we all have in common....we have no direct control over these things.

With regards to USPS, what I'm not sure about is exactly what is being improved by DeJoy. We've been voting by mail for decades. Is there a new setup that you're talking about that has bugs to work out? The whole news story came from DeJoy's original memo where he mentioned delays might result of these cost-cutting measures, which obviously includes the general election. Ironically, the only reason the USPS loses money is because congress decided the USPS needs to allocated $5B plus annually to their future retiree fund (other agencies aren't mandated, they pay as they go). They're not supposed to make money, just like the military doesn't make money.

[RiverDog]

With regards to USPS, what I'm not sure about is exactly what is being improved by DeJoy. We've been voting by mail for decades. Is there a new setup that you're talking about that has bugs to work out? The whole news story came from DeJoy's original memo where he mentioned delays might result of these cost-cutting measures, which obviously includes the general election. Ironically, the only reason the USPS loses money is because congress decided the USPS needs to allocated $5B plus annually to their future retiree fund (other agencies aren't mandated, they pay as they go). They're not supposed to make money, just like the military doesn't make money.

Here's an excerpt from an article about our own vote by mail system in WA state and how long it took them to get the bugs worked out of it:

Among the questions other states and municipalities should be asking, according to Wyman and Wise:

Do we need to buy new equipment to count the votes? Do we have current addresses of our voters? Have we tried to mail them anything recently? How recent are the signature cards from voters? Do we need to ask millions of people to fill out new ones?
Do we have a place to count votes that can accommodate the people needed to verify ballots and count them, while allowing for social distancing? What state laws would we need to change in order to allow for most votes to be cast by mail? Will we provide free postage? How much will that cost? Will we provide drop boxes and, if so, how many? Do we need to set up some in-person sites for people to vote or register and how can you do that while accounting for social distancing? How much will this transition cost? Where will the money come from?

https://crosscut.com/2020/04/washington ... -overnight

Note the picture in that link. It's an example of a drop box that's cheap to build and easy to put in public locations like fire stations, libraries, the courthouse or city hall, and other places that are easy to access and where security systems already exist. We have one in front of our PUD building. Heck, you could put one inside a WalMart store. There's no reason why we have to depend solely on USPS to handle mail-in ballots.

The only reason USPS was making money was due to their package delivery side of the business. Their traditional first class postage service has been losing money hand-over-fist for decades and IMO needs to be vastly overhauled and/or privatized. Most of what I receive is junk as nearly all of my financial transactions and statement deliveries are done electronically. If I have an important communication that I need to make happen, the very last mode I use is snail mail.

I've heard some discussion about USPS removing some under used drop boxes and that they are going to cut back on carrier overtime by making some mail wait until the next day for delivery. Heck, I don't understand why they haven't cut back on the number of days they deliver mail to two or three times a week vs. the current Mon-Sat. Neither of those issues should have a significant effect on out ability to cast our votes.

The new PG seems to be off track somewhat, and I'm glad that Pelosi has decided to haul his arse up to Congress to testify. Some of the things he's been saying don't make a lick of sense, like not prioritizing ballots in their sorting of the mail.

[Aseahawkfan]

I never heard of any rumors that Bush 43 and Obama would not leave peacefully had they lost their re-election bid, nor did they attempt in advance of their elections to de-legitimize the vote by spreading false information as Trump has by promoting completely baseless accusations about the security of mail-in voting that serves to fuel speculation that he won't simply step aside if he loses.

Personally, I think the likelihood of Trump's not leaving peacefully is relatively remote, but based on his personality, it's something that can't be completely dismissed, and while an attempt to stay in office by force would obviously be unsuccessful, I can imagine him inciting a protest and rioting in the wake of the election, especially during the current atmosphere of anything goes with regard to defying authorities. In any event, like everything else about his presidency, this is going to be a very unique transition period.

There are a lot of people out there that, with some justification, are unhappy with the cancel culture/BLM movement. A controversial election could be the match that sets off the powder keg. That's one of the problems with the government/police tepid reaction to the violence that has spun off from the BLM demonstrations in that they've now set a hands off precedent. If, for example, pro Trump groups decide to march on Washington or take over a downtown area of a major city and police/National Guard cracks down hard on them, the hypocrisy might cause even more violence.

You either don't keep track too closely or don't care.

Bush Jr was called a war criminal over and over again. The conspiracy nuts (left and right) claimed Bush Jr and Cheney were not going to leave office, but stage a coup where they held power indefinitely. They pointed to what they considered his manipulation of Florida, the wars he started using lies where he manipulated American intelligence to lie to Congress, they claimed 9/11 was fake, and other such rumors.

When Obama was elected, they ran some video of children singing like Hitler Youth. They claimed Obama was a foreign born plant for some Muslim nations and that he would launch a socialist coup. Lots of rumors.

I do give you that Trump is the first one to claim mail-in voting is rigged and wanting to delay the election that is without precedent or support. But like I said, he can say all he wants, states run elections. He can't stop states as has been shown clearly during his term. Unless he has some military or law-enforcement backing I don't know about, he'll get the high hard boot if he doesn't leave if he loses.

That's why I don't get why people fret. Our nation runs above the president even. He's not the leader of the free world or the most powerful man in the world or any of that vain trash. He's a bureaucrat elected by Americans to preside over the nation who is tightly controlled by checks and balances in our Constitution which Trump does not get to circumvent. Dumb as Dirt will leave come November, though he may kick and scream and cry no fair. No one will back him, not even his own party.

[Aseahawkfan]

Mail in voting works fine. Trump's an idiot.

[RiverDog]

You either don't keep track too closely or don't care.

Bush Jr was called a war criminal over and over again. The conspiracy nuts (left and right) claimed Bush Jr and Cheney were not going to leave office, but stage a coup where they held power indefinitely. They pointed to what they considered his manipulation of Florida, the wars he started using lies where he manipulated American intelligence to lie to Congress, they claimed 9/11 was fake, and other such rumors.

When Obama was elected, they ran some video of children singing like Hitler Youth. They claimed Obama was a foreign born plant for some Muslim nations and that he would launch a socialist coup. Lots of rumors.

I really wish you would cease with your habit of talking down to others. The conspiracy theories you mentioned are garden variety, run of the mill type not analogous to the current situation and were not started by the POTUS. Trump is the only one that is actively promoting them himself.

I do give you that Trump is the first one to claim mail-in voting is rigged and wanting to delay the election that is without precedent or support. But like I said, he can say all he wants, states run elections. He can't stop states as has been shown clearly during his term. Unless he has some military or law-enforcement backing I don't know about, he'll get the high hard boot if he doesn't leave if he loses.

I agree. The concern is overdone. But I am glad that Pelosi is putting the postmaster general on the hot seat and addressing the funding issue. Some of the things the PG has been saying is undermining the confidence in the system.

That's why I don't get why people fret. Our nation runs above the president even. He's not the leader of the free world or the most powerful man in the world or any of that vain trash. He's a bureaucrat elected by Americans to preside over the nation who is tightly controlled by checks and balances in our Constitution which Trump does not get to circumvent. Dumb as Dirt will leave come November, though he may kick and scream and cry no fair. No one will back him, not even his own party.

I think that's the most likely scenario, like 95%+. His VP, his cabinet, even the military won't support him if he tries to defy the results of an election. But we can't completely dismiss the notion that he might try.