Coronavirus Hype

[Aseahawkfan]

I don't disagree that southern Europe is going to get hit hard, but IMO it won't be due to the lack of technology investment. The key is preparedness NOW, which means hospital beds, respirators, ICU's, how effective their society is at preventing the spread, etc.

I chatted with my daughter last night. If you will recall, she's a nurse at an urgent care clinic in Spokane. Her hospital has 3 urgent care clinics, and the one she works at has been designated as the "clean" clinic as they have other specialties in the building, while the other two are designated "dirty", meaning that anyone that shows up with symptoms at the "clean" clinic is stopped at the door and sent to one of the dirty clinics for testing. So far, things haven't been getting too crazy at her clinic but she's concerned about the lack of PPE's, says they're already running short of gowns and that their managers are telling them that it's OK to test people without them. She's convinced that she'll eventually end up with COVID-19.

What it's all about now, at least in our country, is buying time. If we can stave off the peak period of infection, allow industry to ramp up production of needed equipment and supplies, get into the warmer, wetter summer months, then maybe we can get out of this without experiencing what they're going through in western Europe.

Preparedness and order is part of culture. Some cultures follow government warnings much better than other cultures. We're kind of in-between in that regard. Germany I hear follows rules very stringently with a lot of social pressure.

You just listed technology investment as in respirators, hospital beds, and PPEs. Northern Europe has the funds and facilities to ramp production quickly for these things as well as advanced communication, transport, and overall hospital facilities. Southern Europe does not have the same level. We have the funds to do so as well and we are getting on it. Respirators and hospital beds are essential for treating the sick. The production facilities to ramp them up are necessary. Even our capitalists who people like AOC rail against are keeping people going because capitalism with a moral base can be much more efficient in situations like this as well and for all our shortcomings America has had a capitalist system with a moral base guiding it.

And surprisingly our lack of a strong family culture is helping us and the lower birth rate for many places. Northern Europe is more similar to America in family culture not having young and old living under one roof. Unfortunately what is killing people more in some of these nations is their focus on large families. This is one of the few times where having large families that live together is a negative. Usually it is very positive, but not in this situation. America, Northern Europe, and places like Japan and Russia with their lower birth rates and spread out families are actually helping them some. I figure the more spread out your population, the better chance you have with social distancing.

And I heard Italy (and I wouldn't be surprised if Spain did as well), did not heed the call for social distancing. For some in Italy or Iran, they may not have been able to heed the call with large families living all under the same roof. It is very sad that having a strong family culture with the old and young living together is a massive risk in the current times.

Canada and Russia are lucky right now to be huge land spaces with a comparatively small population. They can easily social distance and spread out as long as the city dwellers in those places heed the call for social distancing. I've heard Canadians tend to support the directives of their government and society, so they should weather the storm better than many.

[Aseahawkfan]

Riv, prayers for your daughter and all those on the front line (the only line, really) during these times. Who knew it would accelerate so quickly. None of us has any frame of reference for this within our lifetime. I think we’ll see very soon if we’ll fare differently than Italy. It’s true the US has far more resources - the question is if we are prepared, and I’m concerned about the ability of the US to track the disease the way Korea or Taiwan, heck even Vietnam, has been doing. Asian countries are just different in how people accept authority, sometimes both good and bad, but in this case I think it’s to their advantage.

Right now, Italy has more hospital beds per capita than the US (3.2 hospital beds per 1,000 people as compared with 2.8 in the United States). There are encouraging news of companies like Holland America (I designed some of their cruise brochures in the past) offering to convert their ships to non-Covid hospitals and Zara offering to make hospital scrubs and potentially masks (albeit Spain, which is being hit harder than any country except Italy), and car companies potentially making medical equipment. It’s an all out war, just a different enemy. Maybe this is the world war we’ve been waiting for, but it does give me more hope seeing some of the positive ways people have shown themselves.

Navy hospital ships taking in non-Covid right now too.

We'll ramp up the hospital facilities and deploy our large military facilities as well as needed. Hopefully we won't have to call people out of retirement, but should probably tell former doctors and nurses to prepare in case we need them.

New York may get slaughtered. I think they have the most population density in the United States. It will be very hard for them to social distance. In Washington State we should be ok as we have a relatively small population, lots of tech companies, and we have people that stay in a lot of time. We can social distance fairly easy. Inslee was smart not to force a shelter order and keep telling people to maintain distance. Washington doesn't have a huge population density. I work in Seattle, they are empty right now. Bus is nearly empty and quarantining drivers now. California may get slaughtered if the people don't listen.

Texas is a huge population, but a huge land mass. They can social distance if their cities step up. They should be ok. Florida I fear for though. That state has a ton of older folks. It could get hit hard.

[RiverDog]

Riv, prayers for your daughter and all those on the front line (the only line, really) during these times. Who knew it would accelerate so quickly. None of us has any frame of reference for this within our lifetime. I think we’ll see very soon if we’ll far any differently than Italy. It’s true the US has far more resources - the question is if we are prepared, and I’m concerned about the ability of the US to track the disease the way Korea or Taiwan, heck even Vietnam, has been doing. Asian countries are just different in how people accept authority, sometimes both good and bad, but in this case I think it’s to their advantage.

Right now, Italy has more hospital beds per capita than the US (3.2 hospital beds per 1,000 people as compared with 2.8 in the United States).

Thanks for your thoughts, I-5.

There's so many differences between countries and cultures, the fact that some got blindsided while others had more notice, that it's impossible to look at the data and determine that we are any more or any less prepared than other countries.

The POTUS has pretty much used up the goodwill I was directing towards him a couple days ago as now he's doing what he usually does: Twist facts and information to make him look good, sparring with the governors by telling them he's not a supply clerk and to get things themselves. Plus now we have information that he was given numerous warnings of the threat of this disease and chose to ignore it. The man is just plain not equipped to run the country.

[RiverDog]

Navy hospital ships taking in non-Covid right now too.

We'll ramp up the hospital facilities and deploy our large military facilities as well as needed. Hopefully we won't have to call people out of retirement, but should probably tell former doctors and nurses to prepare in case we need them.

Yeah, that should help, particularly in places like NY,SF, and LA. There's old hospitals that they've closed that they can get set up fairly quickly. But that's not going to help the severely ill that need intensive care. The key is buying enough time to where the country can react.

New York may get slaughtered. I think they have the most population density in the United States. It will be very hard for them to social distance. In Washington State we should be ok as we have a relatively small population, lots of tech companies, and we have people that stay in a lot of time. We can social distance fairly easy. Inslee was smart not to force a shelter order and keep telling people to maintain distance. Washington doesn't have a huge population density. I work in Seattle, they are empty right now. Bus is nearly empty and quarantining drivers now. California may get slaughtered if the people don't listen.

Texas is a huge population, but a huge land mass. They can social distance if their cities step up. They should be ok. Florida I fear for though. That state has a ton of older folks. It could get hit hard.

The big cities are going to get hit hard no matter what state they're in. They're not going to be able to take a city like Houston and spread its population out along the Texas plains.

[Aseahawkfan]

If the deaths boost in NY, they may end up Italy. Their population density is working against them.

I care nothing about political news right now as long as things are getting done. The blame game is always ridiculous, yet these partisan idiots always try to push it.

[I-5]

Speaking of blame game, I think Pence deserves credit for taking this seriously. And Anthony Fauci is utterly trustworthy. That’s 2 people doing their job right.

[Aseahawkfan]

Speaking of blame game, I think Pence deserves credit for taking this seriously. And Anthony Fauci is utterly trustworthy. That’s 2 people doing their job right.

Pence is extremely quiet and respectful the majority of the time. I don't even know how those two get along.

[Aseahawkfan]

The big cities are going to get hit hard no matter what state they're in. They're not going to be able to take a city like Houston and spread its population out along the Texas plains.

Yes, they can. Or rather I mean they can send people out of the city easier in Texas and Washington and Idaho. Those places have far more open land and places to spread out than New York where the population density is as high as it gets in a relatively small state.

[RiverDog]

Speaking of blame game, I think Pence deserves credit for taking this seriously. And Anthony Fauci is utterly trustworthy. That’s 2 people doing their job right.

Pence is extremely quiet and respectful the majority of the time. I don't even know how those two get along.

Opposites attract. There's no way the two could co-exist if Pence was a ground shaker. It would be like putting two roosters in the same henhouse.

Agree about Pence deserving credit, and yes, I think it likely that he's one of several that talked some sense into Trump. I also like Fauci. He's having to walk a tight rope by correcting much of what his boss says, making sure that the correct information gets out yet not be drawn into the nearly inevitable position of making the boss look stupid. There's a lot of people in the Administration that's doing a great job under very trying circumstances. I just wish Trump would fade into the background and let his people do their jobs. If he gets a call from a governor, just let Pence handle it.

I see where Sean Payton has tested positive for COVID-19. New Orleans is one of the areas that is getting hit hard.

[Aseahawkfan]

Opposites attract. There's no way the two could co-exist if Pence was a ground shaker. It would be like putting two roosters in the same henhouse.

Agree about Pence deserving credit, and yes, I think it likely that he's one of several that talked some sense into Trump. I also like Fauci. He's having to walk a tight rope by correcting much of what his boss says, making sure that the correct information gets out yet not be drawn into the nearly inevitable position of making the boss look stupid. There's a lot of people in the Administration that's doing a great job under very trying circumstances. I just wish Trump would fade into the background and let his people do their jobs. If he gets a call from a governor, just let Pence handle it.

I see where Sean Payton has tested positive for COVID-19. New Orleans is one of the areas that is getting hit hard.

I heard Mardi Gras messed them up. Tons of people kept going to Mardi Gras events before everything went crazy. Viruses love that type of event.

[RiverDog]

The big cities are going to get hit hard no matter what state they're in. They're not going to be able to take a city like Houston and spread its population out along the Texas plains.

Yes, they can. Or rather I mean they can send people out of the city easier in Texas and Washington and Idaho. Those places have far more open land and places to spread out than New York where the population density is as high as it gets in a relatively small state.

Where are they going to send them to? They have to have housing, sanitary facilities, etc. Houston is going to have the same problem as NYC, just a little less serious and not as difficult to control as there is a difference in the population densities of the two cities. It's obviously going to be difficult to control the virus in urban areas, particularly those with high densities, like NYC, SF, and Boston. They aren't going to be able to put armed guards in front of apartment complexes like they did in China.

They are beginning to see that men are more likely to die from the virus than women. Some of the early data was skewed due to the higher smoking rate of older males in China and South Korea, but the trend is holding in Italy and other European countries. The opposite is true for other respiratory diseases, ie women are more likely to die than men. They are beginning to think that hormonal differences may influence how our immune systems responds.

[Aseahawkfan]

Where are they going to send them to? They have to have housing, sanitary facilities, etc. Houston is going to have the same problem as NYC, just a little less serious and not as difficult to control as there is a difference in the population densities of the two cities. It's obviously going to be difficult to control the virus in urban areas, particularly those with high densities, like NYC, SF, and Boston. They aren't going to be able to put armed guards in front of apartment complexes like they did in China.

Can you imagine if we tried to do what China did? That would be terrible.

We will see how they do. Cities going to be hit harder, but Texas is spread out. Plenty of campgrounds, hotels, relatives, and the like in the suburbs. Texas is a huge state with a lot of open land even with their big population. Plenty of places to go compared to tiny New York. Not sure the last time you been to Texas, but a good part of my family from there. That is one huge, spread out state. You can pick up from the city and find some place to go real easy.

They are beginning to see that men are more likely to die from the virus than women. Some of the early data was skewed due to the higher smoking rate of older males in China and South Korea, but the trend is holding in Italy and other European countries. The opposite is true for other respiratory diseases, ie women are more likely to die than men. They are beginning to think that hormonal differences may influence how our immune systems responds.

Yep. As it should be. Women generally live longer and have more robust survival. Evolution is smart to keep the people creators alive. Simple reality is women by virtue of their birth have a magic power that keeps all of humanity alive. Makes sense to provide them with a better survival rate and a male monkey to kill things that give them a problem as well as get them food and resources.

[Aseahawkfan]

We passed Spain now. We're third most cases. New York is blowing up.

[RiverDog]

Yep. As it should be. Women generally live longer and have more robust survival. Evolution is smart to keep the people creators alive. Simple reality is women by virtue of their birth have a magic power that keeps all of humanity alive. Makes sense to provide them with a better survival rate and a male monkey to kill things that give them a problem as well as get them food and resources.

Except that with most respiratory diseases, men have a distinct advantage over women. For example, a woman is more likely to have COPD than men:

..COPD in women is more common. In fact, women are 37 percent more likely to have COPD than men. Women also account for more than half of all deaths attributed to COPD in the United States. Therefore, women, not men, are at a higher risk for COPD.

https://lunginstitute.com/blog/is-copd- ... an-in-men/

The challenge is to figure out why COVID-19 is different in that it's causing more deaths amongst men than women. If they can figure that out, it could lead to a vaccine/treatment.

[RiverDog]

We passed Spain now. We're third most cases. New York is blowing up.

Yup. But that's not necessarily an indication that it's spreading, it's a function of more people being tested. They say that we're still several weeks away from the peak.

The US Army Corps of Engineers is being directed to start constructing make-shift hospitals. Lots of pictures of Times Square and the Las Vegas strip vacant. Hopefully the spring break Gen Z party goers are getting the message.

[Aseahawkfan]

https://lunginstitute.com/blog/is-copd-in-women-more-common-than-in-men/

The challenge is to figure out why COVID-19 is different in that it's causing more deaths amongst men than women. If they can figure that out, it could lead to a vaccine/treatment.

That is not a viral infection. Women tend to live longer than men. They are built slightly better to survive longer. In general, women have better immune systems to men.

And true. This virus has been circulating for a while undetected with no test. We probably have more built in immunity than we think. We would probably be attributing these deaths to the flu if we didn't know it was COVID.

[RiverDog]

https://lunginstitute.com/blog/is-copd-in-women-more-common-than-in-men/

The challenge is to figure out why COVID-19 is different in that it's causing more deaths amongst men than women. If they can figure that out, it could lead to a vaccine/treatment.

That is not a viral infection. Women tend to live longer than men. They are built slightly better to survive longer. In general, women have better immune systems to men.

Did you read the article in the link? It's undeniable that women live longer than men, but some of that is obviously due to environmental differences, ie riskier behaviors.

And true. This virus has been circulating for a while undetected with no test. We probably have more built in immunity than we think. We would probably be attributing these deaths to the flu if we didn't know it was COVID.

It's undoubtedly been around for awhile, but in the absence of information about COVID-19, the sudden rise in deaths would have raised some flags. You don't lose 800 people to the flu in one day in a country of 60 million.

[Aseahawkfan]

Did you read the article in the link? It's undeniable that women live longer than men, but some of that is obviously due to environmental differences, ie riskier behaviors.

No, I did not read the article. It would be some variation on science I"m already well aware of that isn't arguable. Women live longer than men. Their immune systems are stronger. It has been this way a long, long time. From an evolutionary biology perspective it makes sense and has developed over 1000 or tens of thousands of years. If the female didn't have an improve chance of surviving environmental factors, humans wouldn't last long considering the male is built for building a shield around them at risk of his life given the nine month development period.

It's undoubtedly been around for awhile, but in the absence of information about COVID-19, the sudden rise in deaths would have raised some flags. You don't lose 800 people to the flu in one day in a country of 60 million.

https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/burden/index.html

You might if the flu is particularly bad. You don't lose 12000 to 60000 a year from the flu without some very bad days considering flu season is usually a very tight period. In roughly four months, we're at the death rate of a low average flu year. Not sure if we'll see a death level that equals a bad flu year of 60000 or worse. We shall see. The reality at the moment is this is an unknown, but not yet exceeding a bad flu year. We're trying to keep it at a bad flu year at worst and not worse.

The biggest problem is we just don't know what it will be like. And we're hearing worst case scenarios right now. And even when a flu is bad, it doesn't get blown up like this. When was the last time you even paid attention to a bad flu year that killed 30 to 40 thousand people?

Italy is the hardest hit and would have sent up the flag if China hadn't. I hope we can keep this to a bad flu year, but if some other place blows up like India or Southeast Asia, we'll probably blow past a bad flu year.

Right now there is a lot of fear driving the news. That death rate very much shows we are not yet past a bad flu death rate yet. I'm ok with it for now because unknown viruses are no joke. Better to be safe than sorry. It is also clear the media has more power than ever to drive the world into a stressed state.

[RiverDog]

No, I did not read the article. It would be some variation on science I"m already well aware of that isn't arguable. Women live longer than men. Their immune systems are stronger. It has been this way a long, long time. From an evolutionary biology perspective it makes sense and has developed over 1000 or tens of thousands of years. If the female didn't have an improve chance of surviving environmental factors, humans wouldn't last long considering the male is built for building a shield around them at risk of his life given the nine month development period.

You ought to read it. It is not just science, it's plain old facts. Women are at greater risk of respiratory disease and do, in fact, acquire them more often than do men. They have smaller lungs in proportion to their bodies than do men, so they are not as well equipped to handle things like impurities in the air, disease, etc. You can't just say that women live longer than men so therefore they are less likely to get a lung disease.

Right now there is a lot of fear driving the news. That death rate very much shows we are not yet past a bad flu death rate yet. I'm ok with it for now because unknown viruses are no joke. Better to be safe than sorry. It is also clear the media has more power than ever to drive the world into a stressed state.

We know a lot about the flu. It's been around for decades, we have vaccines and treatments for it, we know that it subsides during the summer. I know that if I get my flu shot in October that it will improve my chances of not getting it. We know that in January of each year, the flu is going to take out a lot of people so we can prepare for it. The symptoms are very distinct and recognizable.

We know very little about the coronavirus. It's symptoms are not nearly as distinct or recognizable. Until recently, our testing ability was very limited. We do not have a vaccine or proven treatment, we don't know how it will behave when the weather warms up or if and when it will return again next year. From Dr. Fauci: "I can tell you all, guaranteed, that as we get into March and April, the flu cases are going to go down. You could predict pretty accurately what the range of the mortality is and the hospitalizations [will be]," Fauci said. "The issue now with [COVID-19] is that there's a lot of unknowns."

You can't just compare the mortality rate of the flu with the coronavirus and say it's not that bad. That's the trap I fell into when this thing first started out. The death rate is just one measure. If 5 times more people get infected with COVID-19 than the flu, the death rate vs. the flu will be as meaningless as an answer to a trivia question. We need more information before we can conclude that it isn't as bad as the flu.

The press is going to over report it because that's all that's in the news. It's the biggest story since 9/11. It's inevitable that they're going to drive fear and panic. But If they cause some people to over react, then so be it. I can deal with that. If people want to go ape chit crazy buying TP and bottled water, then let them. I'll drink out of the faucet and use Kleenex to wipe my behind. If I can't find my favorite cereal because hoarders bought it all up, I'll buy something else. I'll wait for the crowds to subside before I go into the store. I'm not going to starve. But I want others to take notice, and sometimes you have to slap them in the face to get them to respond. If anything, they haven't initiated enough fear as some still aren't respecting it.

[Aseahawkfan]

You ought to read it. It is not just science, it's plain old facts. Women are at greater risk of respiratory disease and do, in fact, acquire them more often than do men. They have smaller lungs in proportion to their bodies than do men, so they are not as well equipped to handle things like impurities in the air, disease, etc. You can't just say that women live longer than men so therefore they are less likely to get a lung disease.

Yes I can given that all the evidence indicates they live longer than men and are less affected by this virus. I'm sure there are some areas women are worse than men, but it is irrelevant at this moment and in the overall state of human health. Why would I spend time reading some niche cases not applicable to this situation? The fact is women live longer than men and have for ages as well as being a larger percentage of the population 51 to 49 and it makes complete sense from an evolutionary perspective, which was my original point. Evolution is smart enough to make sure women are more durable and long-lived than men because they do the heavy lifting of human survival.

We know a lot about the flu. It's been around for decades, we have vaccines and treatments for it, we know that it subsides during the summer. I know that if I get my flu shot in October that it will improve my chances of not getting it. We know that in January of each year, the flu is going to take out a lot of people so we can prepare for it. The symptoms are very distinct and recognizable.

We know the symptoms of the corona virus which is similar to the flu. Yet another reason it was so difficult to spot during the flu season.

We know very little about the coronavirus. It's symptoms are not nearly as distinct or recognizable. Until recently, our testing ability was very limited. We do not have a vaccine or proven treatment, we don't know how it will behave when the weather warms up or if and when it will return again next year. From Dr. Fauci: "I can tell you all, guaranteed, that as we get into March and April, the flu cases are going to go down. You could predict pretty accurately what the range of the mortality is and the hospitalizations [will be]," Fauci said. "The issue now with [COVID-19] is that there's a lot of unknowns."

The unknowns are what make this dangerous. We know a lot of about corona viruses, but this one in particular is new, appears to spread easily, and might be as dangerous or more dangerous than the flu absent the usual means we use to fight the flu.

You can't just compare the mortality rate of the flu with the coronavirus and say it's not that bad. That's the trap I fell into when this thing first started out. The death rate is just one measure. If 5 times more people get infected with COVID-19 than the flu, the death rate vs. the flu will be as meaningless as an answer to a trivia question. We need more information before we can conclude that it isn't as bad as the flu.

The flu is bad. So I would never say that. Rather I said we're not past a bad flu season for deaths yet and I'd like to keep it that way. Which is why I'm on board with the measures being taken given we don't have the same means we use to fight the flu. Imagine a flu season without the usual means to fight, it would be far worse than it already is.

The press is going to over report it because that's all that's in the news. It's the biggest story since 9/11. It's inevitable that they're going to drive fear and panic. But If they cause some people to over react, then so be it. I can deal with that. If people want to go ape chit crazy buying TP and bottled water, then let them. I'll drink out of the faucet and use Kleenex to wipe my behind. If I can't find my favorite cereal because hoarders bought it all up, I'll buy something else. I'll wait for the crowds to subside before I go into the store. I'm not going to starve. But I want others to take notice, and sometimes you have to slap them in the face to get them to respond. If anything, they haven't initiated enough fear as some still aren't respecting it.

And they make their money winding people up and getting them to watch.

One thing I know for certain is Cuomo's talk of 6 to 9 months is BS. It's one thing to try to slow this but at some point the economic destruction will outweigh the benefits of the policies to fight this. It doesn't do much good to save a small percentage of folks when the majority end up in a ruined country in a depression alive, but jobless, homeless, penniless, and having lost everything they've built over the years. At some point they're going to have to let it run and do the job viruses were meant to do: thin the population.

[RiverDog]

Yes I can given that all the evidence indicates they live longer than men and are less affected by this virus. I'm sure there are some areas women are worse than men, but it is irrelevant at this moment and in the overall state of human health. Why would I spend time reading some niche cases not applicable to this situation? The fact is women live longer than men and have for ages as well as being a larger percentage of the population 51 to 49 and it makes complete sense from an evolutionary perspective, which was my original point. Evolution is smart enough to make sure women are more durable and long-lived than men because they do the heavy lifting of human survival.

No, it's not irrelevant. There is a difference in how this virus affects the sexes differently than other viruses. If a reason for that difference can be determined, could lead to a cure or a treatment.

One thing I know for certain is Cuomo's talk of 6 to 9 months is BS. It's one thing to try to slow this but at some point the economic destruction will outweigh the benefits of the policies to fight this. It doesn't do much good to save a small percentage of folks when the majority end up in a ruined country in a depression alive, but jobless, homeless, penniless, and having lost everything they've built over the years. At some point they're going to have to let it run and do the job viruses were meant to do: thin the population.

Cuomo was giving worst case scenario, and I personally don't believe it, either, but we really can't say for certain that it won't happen. At this point, I don't care if he's preaching gloom and doom if that's what it takes to wake some people up.

I've seen estimates that this virus could infect 40%-70% of the world population, and at a mortality rate of 1%, that works out to 30-55 million people dead. Sorry, but I'm not calling BS, just praying that those scenarios don't play out.

There is some research out there that indicates that this virus will behave much like the flu in that with increased heat and humidity that it will wane when we get into the hot summer months. Vietnam, Thailand, and Singapore, countries with hotter, wetter weather, did not experience nearly as bad of an outbreak as they did in northern climates in Europe and China. However, they also enacted a much quicker, more effective initial response than other areas.

[Aseahawkfan]

No, it's not irrelevant. There is a difference in how this virus affects the sexes differently than other viruses. If a reason for that difference can be determined, could lead to a cure or a treatment.

Do you have some comparison stating whether flus and other viruses don't normally kill males more often? I have only heard the current data, not comparable data. From what I'm seeing more men tend to die regardless by percentage.

Cuomo was giving worst case scenario, and I personally don't believe it, either, but we really can't say for certain that it won't happen. At this point, I don't care if he's preaching gloom and doom if that's what it takes to wake some people up.

I've seen estimates that this virus could infect 40%-70% of the world population, and at a mortality rate of 1%, that works out to 30-55 million people dead. Sorry, but I'm not calling BS, just praying that those scenarios don't play out.

There is some research out there that indicates that this virus will behave much like the flu in that with increased heat and humidity that it will wane when we get into the hot summer months. Vietnam, Thailand, and Singapore, countries with hotter, wetter weather, did not experience nearly as bad of an outbreak as they did in northern climates in Europe and China. However, they also enacted a much quicker, more effective initial response than other areas.

It's not a matter of BS. What I am saying is do you ruin the world to protect that 1% leaving the other 99% to suffer or do you eventually say we have to live and let the 99% get to it? Do you want to live your retired years if you survive in a ruined world that can't afford your social security and is accelerated towards bankruptcy trying to save everyone? How would you feel saving the 1% if all your wealth is wiped out and you're living in a land with a 25% unemployment rate and massive homelessness and unemployment with all the associated problems? At what point is trying to save everyone not worth it?

[Aseahawkfan]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lWOYj8hjjjM

Another good watch. Youtube has tons of great info on this.

[RiverDog]

It's not a matter of BS. What I am saying is do you ruin the world to protect that 1% leaving the other 99% to suffer or do you eventually say we have to live and let the 99% get to it? Do you want to live your retired years if you survive in a ruined world that can't afford your social security and is accelerated towards bankruptcy trying to save everyone? How would you feel saving the 1% if all your wealth is wiped out and you're living in a land with a 25% unemployment rate and massive homelessness and unemployment with all the associated problems? At what point is trying to save everyone not worth it?

It would take a lot more than a 1/99 ratio to affect the type of scenario you're talking about. But to answer your question, if my choice is living in a world of 25% unemployment and massive homelessness or death, I'll take the former.

As I mentioned before, I am quite comfortable with a triage process composed of completely objective criteria similar to a war that treats Jeff Bezos the same as Joe Six Pack. In other words, if there is one ventilator available and it is medically determined that Bezo's survivability rate with a ventilator is 10% while Joe Six Pack's is 40%, then Joe gets the ventilator. The only exception would be medical professionals if it's determined that they are critical to saving lives.

[Aseahawkfan]

It would take a lot more than a 1/99 ratio to affect the type of scenario you're talking about. But to answer your question, if my choice is living in a world of 25% unemployment and massive homelessness or death, I'll take the former.

As I mentioned before, I am quite comfortable with a triage process composed of completely objective criteria similar to a war that treats Jeff Bezos the same as Joe Six Pack. In other words, if there is one ventilator available and it is medically determined that Bezo's survivability rate with a ventilator is 10% while Joe Six Pack's is 40%, then Joe gets the ventilator. The only exception would be medical professionals if it's determined that they are critical to saving lives.

But isn't Bezos more likely to help the economy swing back up than Joe Six Pack? I would choose Bezos over Joe Six Pack. He's the leader of Amazon. He knows how to build huge businesses that employ huge numbers of people and create productive efficiency in society. Joe Six Pack is some beer swilling, obese TV watcher who doesn't like to work much more than 40 hours a week and can barely manager his household much less a huge business employing tens of thousands of people.

I believe entrepreneurs are more essential than say actors or entertainers, though some would argue that as well. People that can manage businesses and organizations are important to our societal infrastructure and standard of living. I'd save Bezos over Joe Six Pack if I could. Not because he has more money, but because he himself is such a productive person.

Now Joe Six Pack versus Walton Heiress? That's another story. Some rich person that inherited wealth but can't build jack squat I would save Joe Six Pack first if he had higher survival rate. That heir's money can be distributed to equal or more productive people. Lazy rich people that inherit their money are just like everyone else as far as I'm concerned. But very productive entrepreneurs are essential to the standard of living and productivity of society.

[RiverDog]

But isn't Bezos more likely to help the economy swing back up than Joe Six Pack?

No. Amazon would go on without him just like the Seahawks are going on without Paul Allen. Bezo's contribution to society happened 20 years ago. Now he's nothing but a figure head, like the queen of England. No real power or effect on world affairs. The economy is no more dependent on Jeff Bezo's staying above the sod level than Joe 6 Pack.

[Aseahawkfan]

No. Amazon would go on without him just like the Seahawks are going on without Paul Allen. Bezo's contribution to society happened 20 years ago. Now he's nothing but a figure head, like the queen of England. No real power or effect on world affairs. The economy is no more dependent on Jeff Bezo's staying above the sod level than Joe 6 Pack.

For Bill Gates I would agree. He's left Microsoft behind, but Bezos is still heavily involved in Amazon. He drives that company. I think entrepreneurs driving business are more valuable to society than Joe Six Pack as much as Joe Six Pack doesn't like hearing it.

[RiverDog]

For Bill Gates I would agree. He's left Microsoft behind, but Bezos is still heavily involved in Amazon. He drives that company. I think entrepreneurs driving business are more valuable to society than Joe Six Pack as much as Joe Six Pack doesn't like hearing it.

Heavily involved, yes. Just like the POTUS is heavily involved in the doings of the country. But critical to the company? No. They wouldn't skip a beat.

[RiverDog]

It looks like our lawmakers are going to get a close up view with what much of the nation is having to deal with. Sen. Rand Paul just tested positive for COVID-19:

https://www.cnn.com/2020/03/22/politics ... index.html

And not only that, but Paul may be at risk of being hit hard by the virus:

In 2019, Paul had part of his lung removed after a 2017 attack by his neighbor at his home in Bowling Green, Kentucky. The attack also left the senator with six broken ribs and bruised lungs. He still occasionally experiences shortness of breath. He got the test six or seven days ago, the source said.

[RiverDog]

Well, so much for Trump acting responsibly and staying off fricking Twitter:

WE CANNOT LET THE CURE BE WORSE THAN THE PROBLEM ITSELF,” Trump wrote in a tweet posted near midnight on Sunday. “AT THE END OF THE 15 DAY PERIOD, WE WILL MAKE A DECISION AS TO WHICH WAY WE WANT TO GO!”

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/03/23/in-coro ... -cure.html

That's a pretty frightening statement coming from the POTUS. He's also repeating very dubious claims of a miracle cure, contradicting what his own people have been telling him.

The president then retweeted, or posted to his own account, a number of replies, including one from a man named Chuck Callesto, who is identified as a “Digital Real Estate Manager,” promoting a possible cure.

[Aseahawkfan]

RD,

Notice how easy it is for actors and athletes to get tested? You should know there is not going to be any fairness. Actors and athletes with mild to no symptoms getting tested easily, while if you go to the hospital with mild symptoms you might be sent home with no test.

The" cure" statement by some scheister or the cure worse than the disease? That second statement I agree with. You don't destroy your society to save a small number of lives that may die anyway. At some point you have to let it go and accept the losses to ensure the world doesn't crumble into a terrible place to live with no jobs and massive businesses and wealth destroyed. The government can't keep printing, loaning, and borrowing money for months with no or little economic activity and expect everything to be ok. If we come out of this having saved a handful of lives, while destroying the livelihoods of millions and leaving society in shambles then we did indeed go too far to save lives.

[RiverDog]

The" cure" statement by some scheister or the cure worse than the disease? That second statement I agree with. You don't destroy your society to save a small number of lives that may die anyway. At some point you have to let it go and accept the losses to ensure the world doesn't crumble into a terrible place to live with no jobs and massive businesses and wealth destroyed. The government can't keep printing, loaning, and borrowing money for months with no or little economic activity and expect everything to be ok. If we come out of this having saved a handful of lives, while destroying the livelihoods of millions and leaving society in shambles then we did indeed go too far to save lives.

I was speaking of both.

I agree that we can't leave our economy shut down for months and that at some point we just need to say damned the torpedoes, but giving it only 15 days? Trump's own people told us from the outset that 15 days probably wouldn't be sufficient and to prepare for the worst. He's sending mixed signals. He shouldn't be talking about ending it until we've at least gone the initial 15 days. Now it's going to be even more difficult to get people to comply when the POTUS is on Twitter essentially trivializing the crisis.

Although it's not affecting the management of the crisis, I find it appalling that Trump keeps calling this the "China virus" when everybody in the world is calling it either the coronavirus or COVID-19. All he's doing is creating more racial intolerance.

[Aseahawkfan]

I was speaking of both.

I agree that we can't leave our economy shut down for months and that at some point we just need to say damned the torpedoes, but giving it only 15 days? Trump's own people told us from the outset that 15 days probably wouldn't be sufficient and to prepare for the worst. He's sending mixed signals. He shouldn't be talking about ending it until we've at least gone the initial 15 days. Now it's going to be even more difficult to get people to comply when the POTUS is on Twitter essentially trivializing the crisis.

Although it's not affecting the management of the crisis, I find it appalling that Trump keeps calling this the "China virus" when everybody in the world is calling it either the coronavirus or COVID-19. All he's doing is creating more racial intolerance.

From what I have seen the anti-China crowd wants to use this incident as leverage against China to bring more manufacturing home and cut off reliance on China. Apparently in a new wrinkle, our drug manufacturing is heavily reliant on China as well. So if we create some medications to fight COVID19, we will have to manufacture the drugs in China allowing China to control the supply. Trump is pushing more anti-China rhetoric to level in trade negotiations.

One thing I would like is for China to shut down these wet markets. If this virus did come from some bat in China in a wet market, then that has to stop 100%. They have to better monitor their food supply if the risk of pandemic is like it is now from some strange animal they are eating there.

I know you don't like racial talk. But China is a country and if they are messing around like this, the hammer needs to fall on them. The leadership of their nation has to be called out and isolated if they can't start acting in the best interests of the world rather than just China.

[RiverDog]

From what I have seen the anti-China crowd wants to use this incident as leverage against China to bring more manufacturing home and cut off reliance on China. Apparently in a new wrinkle, our drug manufacturing is heavily reliant on China as well. So if we create some medications to fight COVID19, we will have to manufacture the drugs in China allowing China to control the supply. Trump is pushing more anti-China rhetoric to level in trade negotiations.

One thing I would like is for China to shut down these wet markets. If this virus did come from some bat in China in a wet market, then that has to stop 100%. They have to better monitor their food supply if the risk of pandemic is like it is now from some strange animal they are eating there.

I know you don't like racial talk. But China is a country and if they are messing around like this, the hammer needs to fall on them. The leadership of their nation has to be called out and isolated if they can't start acting in the best interests of the world rather than just China.

Drug manufacturing isn't the only industry that is heavily reliant on components manufactured in China.

And as far as Trump's using the term to increase the anti China rhetoric, the end does not justify the means. It is a racially insensitive smear that has no place in the Oval Office. There are far too many people that will not interpret his language as simply a tool to leverage trade concessions. How would you like to be a Chinese-American grade schooler and have to endure being taunted about the "China virus"?

China is going to be highly motivated to prevent this virus from arising again. Like nearly all the countries in the northern hemisphere, they have paid a heavy price. This is one incident that recognizes no borders.

[Aseahawkfan]

Drug manufacturing isn't the only industry that is heavily reliant on components manufactured in China.

And as far as Trump's using the term to increase the anti China rhetoric, the end does not justify the means. It is a racially insensitive smear that has no place in the Oval Office. There are far too many people that will not interpret his language as simply a tool to leverage trade concessions. How would you like to be a Chinese-American grade schooler and have to endure being taunted about the "China virus"?

China is going to be highly motivated to prevent this virus from arising again. Like nearly all the countries in the northern hemisphere, they have paid a heavy price. This is one incident that recognizes no borders.

I have to be honest with you. I am half-Mexican (like your daughter from what you've said), but I don't care one bit when someone points out true things about Mexico. I feel like an American being raised here. My mother is an American of Mexican ancestry with zero experience or desire to live in Mexico. She feels nothing when Mexico is brought up. So I think it would depend on how long the Chinese ancestry guy has been in America or his relationship with China. Many Chinese people know China is a terribly corrupt nation that is undermining America. Now if Trump started attacking Chinese people specifically, then maybe things would be different. As far as bad mouthing a nation that you have no real association with when you're born and raised in America, I doubt those folks care. So it very much depends.

The media does more to make Trump look bad to immigrants than Trump does himself. A lot of the stuff he says is well known by people that actually live in Mexico. Mexico has some really terrible parts and terrible organizations as well as a very corrupt government. Mexicans and people from South/Central America aren't fleeing those places because they're good places to live. Not like if you get up in front of a bunch of Mexicans from here and said, "Hey, Trump is talking mad crap. Mexico is a great place. You all should go there and live and prove him wrong."

The Mexicans would look at you crazy and be like, "Hell no. You're crazy. Our countries are holes. The main reason we're pissed is Trump isn't letting get the hell out of those holes and come to America." Those nations are terrible. The stories immigrants from those places talk about make me glad to be born and raised here. I have zero love of Mexico other than the food and some of the natural beauty.

When I hear Trump say "China Virus", I very much separate that from the Chinese people because the Chinese government may have very well hidden a very dangerous situation that is causing this situation to be worse than it is. If that is the case, they need to be called out on it. I'm not with you on that. If China hid this virus and continues to allow these types of viruses to spread into the world from places like their wet market, then they should be called out.

[Aseahawkfan]

China is going to be highly motivated to prevent this virus from arising again. Like nearly all the countries in the northern hemisphere, they have paid a heavy price. This is one incident that recognizes no borders.

Are you sure? A few of the last pandemics came from China, yet they haven't cleaned up their wet markets. Those things gotta go, man.

[I-5]

When I hear Trump say "China Virus", I very much separate that from the Chinese people because the Chinese government may have very well hidden a very dangerous situation that is causing this situation to be worse than it is. If that is the case, they need to be called out on it. I'm not with you on that. If China hid this virus and continues to allow these types of viruses to spread into the world from places like their wet market, then they should be called out.

While everyone knows the virus came from China, and that calling it the 'China Virus' isn't technically wrong...it's not really about Trump. It's about the $%@ rednecks who are assaulting Asians now that they feel emboldened by the leader of the country. You don't have to believe or agree, I just know too many people who that hadn't experienced it to their face like that before. It's always been there, but usually hidden under the surface. Not anymore.

[Aseahawkfan]

While everyone knows the virus came from China, and that calling it the 'China Virus' isn't technically wrong...it's not really about Trump. It's about the $%@ rednecks who are assaulting Asians now that they feel emboldened by the leader of the country. You don't have to believe or agree, I just know too many people who that hadn't experienced it to their face like that before. It's always been there, but usually hidden under the surface. Not anymore.

Is that happening a lot? I watch Yahoo News, one of the most liberal news sources on the net and I'm not seeing a lot of Asians being assaulted by rednecks.

I feel like most people separate China from Asian people. Though there are always a few dumbasses like when Sikhs were being attacked after 9/11.

I feel like most Americans and people separate the people from the country. I don't generally look for a small number of stories supporting my confirmation bias from agenda driven news sources over what seems the true overall interpretation by the American population. Everyone, including Canada and Europe, have their extremists that agenda driven news agencies drag out to encourage confirmation bias when the majority of people are more reasonable and willing to listen to reason...except when it comes to buying toilet paper I guess.

[I-5]

I feel like most people separate China from Asian people

I'd also like to think most people can separate the actions of the Chinese government from asian people. But it's also clear that a lot of people do have prejudice against Asian people in the US, of the 'they took our jobs' theme. It's not so much articles, I'm reading, I just have a of Asian friends who have had this type of experience, regardless of what you're reading in Yahoo or not. Trump knows how to expertly stroke that part of his base. He's good. Like I said, it's always been there, just way more out in the open now. The China Virus isn't helping.

[Aseahawkfan]

I'd also like to think most people can separate the actions of the Chinese government from asian people. But it's also clear that a lot of people do have prejudice against Asian people in the US, of the 'they took our jobs' theme. It's not so much articles, I'm reading, I just have a of Asian friends who have had this type of experience, regardless of what you're reading in Yahoo or not. Trump knows how to expertly stroke that part of his base. He's good. Like I said, it's always been there, just way more out in the open now. The China Virus isn't helping.

I think those people would be there anyway. Trump stood up for Asian-Americans, does that mean his supporters who aren't racist will stand up and protect Asian-Americans? You can't blame a president for the actions of idiots one way or another.

I get people do it. I saw a lot of people blaming Obama for stupid things based on what he said that he never intended. This is just payback for Trump at this point.

I want no part of it myself. I don't change my views based on what the president says. If these people are racist, they were that way before Trump took office. I don't suddenly notice Asian friends getting prejudice against them because the president talks. Plenty of that was occurring before Trump and stays about the same regardless of president or leader or what not.