Coronavirus Hype

[RiverDog]

I think those people would be there anyway. Trump stood up for Asian-Americans, does that mean his supporters who aren't racist will stand up and protect Asian-Americans? You can't blame a president for the actions of idiots one way or another.

That's not the point. Yes, those idiots would still be there. But when the POTUS says things that strikes a certain cord within their psyche, it can and does give them the perceived freedom to express their deep seated hatred against anyone that doesn't look or talk like them. It gives them comfort in the knowledge that their POV is perfectly acceptable behavior.

I want no part of it myself. I don't change my views based on what the president says. If these people are racist, they were that way before Trump took office. I don't suddenly notice Asian friends getting prejudice against them because the president talks. Plenty of that was occurring before Trump and stays about the same regardless of president or leader or what not.

You've always held yourself to be a tolerant and understanding individual so I have no doubt that you are not an active participant or that you would change your POV based on what the POTUS says. It's too bad that the rest of our citizens don't share our perspective.

No one is going to change the minds of folks that have intolerant POV's. But you can marginalize them, isolate them from the rest of society and deny them their martyr. After a period of time, their way of thinking becomes extinct as it cannot spread as rapidly amongst weak minded individuals looking for an excuse to explain their own shortcomings as it can when you're hero is on the bully pulpit preaching his bigotry. And don't think that j/b you don't personally see it that it doesn't exist. It doesn't have to be an overt expression or even a verbal one. A stink eyed frown speaks volumes.

[Hawktawk]

I think those people would be there anyway. Trump stood up for Asian-Americans, does that mean his supporters who aren't racist will stand up and protect Asian-Americans? You can't blame a president for the actions of idiots one way or another.

I get people do it. I saw a lot of people blaming Obama for stupid things based on what he said that he never intended. This is just payback for Trump at this point.

I want no part of it myself. I don't change my views based on what the president says. If these people are racist, they were that way before Trump took office. I don't suddenly notice Asian friends getting prejudice against them because the president talks. Plenty of that was occurring before Trump and stays about the same regardless of president or leader or what not.

Not sure what you mean by "stood up for" asian americans. He did so after they started getting assaulted over TRUMPS repeated use of the term "Chinese virus". Its akin to "very nice people on both sides" and the like. The guys a racist, clearly .It doesn't excuse other racists behavior but hes the racist in chief.

Then there's this.https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/03 ... s-pandemic
The surgeon general added "this is going to get really bad" and suggesting everyone act like they have it.

As was stated earlier in the thread Trump thinks we can do this half assed unregulated 2 week pause we're a week into and then its business as usual as cases double every 2 to 3 days .He may want to check with his buddy Boris in the UK who had the same theory ie cure is worse than the disease, carry on. He just locked down the entire nation and gave an impassioned coherent statement explaining why we must distance. Everyone gets sick at once. The medical system is overwhelmed and people start dying in droves. As Johnson pointed out not just from the virus but other illnesses as supplies dwindle and medical professionals become infected. He called it the worst pandemic we have faced in many decades.
Now there's a man who has developed some common sense.POTUS on the other hand...

I have laid off Trump for the most part, its not really a time for a lot of politics. The election is completely off the radar.

But I've had enough of the babbling baboon. As Bernie Sanders said so correctly at the last debate when asked about his response to the virus he said "we have to shut this president up right now. Hes blabbering non factual information to the american people" hear hear. STFU
In late Feb he was at his Trumpanzee rally calling this a "democratic hoax". 3 weeks ago he said we had 15 cases, soon to be one then zero". He called Jay inslee a "snake" while addressing the CDC no less for having been completely upstaged by Inslee who was weeks ahead of him in social distancing measures while dealing with the biggest crisis in the nation with no federal direction. When the market plunged after his first 2 incoherent addresses on the subject he seemed to grasp the reality of the situation for a while.he seemed almost humble. I lauded the appointment of Pence and his conferences were serious and informative, medical people were present, reassuring to a point the the government had a plan.

Then Trump realized Pence was getting high marks, Cuomo in NY was a media must see every day so the pathologically narcissistic Baboon had to start hijacking these briefings again, rambling on about how the economy used to be the best in the world or whatever else flies out of his mouth. Then he spouting flat out untruths and happy talk as his own advisors wince and the medical professionals frown and hang their heads.Now hes weeding them off the stage so they cant call out his bullshit in real time.
My wife who is a medical professional has been told to make her own masks as best as she can as coronavirus explodes in grant co.They are being advised to reuse masks and only wear them if someone has symptoms. I have a dentist friend who had to close his clinic per govt order so the medical supplies could be raided.
ARE YOU FING KIDDING ME??? Damn right Im pist. Not just at Trump either but he shares a lot of blame. Stories emerge every day about positions eliminated including one in China monitoring infectious diseases that was defunded late last summer, disbanding the CDC pandemic team, even proposed cuts to the CDC after the virus was active. As it was the US knew within 2 weeks of china about this virus, not months as Trump has said. Still no tests, no supplies. The reaction of this government was dreadful.By the time you roll in stuff like Senators cashing in millions in stock along with the billionaires in the know I swear the prisons ought to be full of all these people when this is all said and done. If a few of them croaked from this it would be poetic justice.

[c_hawkbob]

Not sure what you mean by "stood up for" asian americans. He did so after they started getting assaulted over TRUMPS repeated use of the term "Chinese virus". Its akin to "very nice people on both sides" and the like. The guys a racist, clearly .It doesn't excuse other racists behavior but hes the racist in chief.

Then there's this.https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/03 ... s-pandemic
The surgeon general added "this is going to get really bad" and suggesting everyone act like they have it.

As was stated earlier in the thread Trump thinks we can do this half assed unregulated 2 week pause we're a week into and then its business as usual as cases double every 2 to 3 days .He may want to check with his buddy Boris in the UK who had the same theory ie cure is worse than the disease, carry on. He just locked down the entire nation and gave an impassioned coherent statement explaining why we must distance. Everyone gets sick at once. The medical system is overwhelmed and people start dying in droves. As Johnson pointed out not just from the virus but other illnesses as supplies dwindle and medical professionals become infected. He called it the worst pandemic we have faced in many decades.
Now there's a man who has developed some common sense.POTUS on the other hand...

I have laid off Trump for the most part, its not really a time for a lot of politics. The election is completely off the radar.

But I've had enough of the babbling baboon. As Bernie Sanders said so correctly at the last debate when asked about his response to the virus he said "we have to shut this president up right now. Hes blabbering non factual information to the american people" hear hear. STFU
In late Feb he was at his Trumpanzee rally calling this a "democratic hoax". 3 weeks ago he said we had 15 cases, soon to be one then zero". He called Jay inslee a "snake" while addressing the CDC no less for having been completely upstaged by Inslee who was weeks ahead of him in social distancing measures while dealing with the biggest crisis in the nation with no federal direction. When the market plunged after his first 2 incoherent addresses on the subject he seemed to grasp the reality of the situation for a while.he seemed almost humble. I lauded the appointment of Pence and his conferences were serious and informative, medical people were present, reassuring to a point the the government had a plan.

Then Trump realized Pence was getting high marks, Cuomo in NY was a media must see every day so the pathologically narcissistic Baboon had to start hijacking these briefings again, rambling on about how the economy used to be the best in the world or whatever else flies out of his mouth. Then he spouting flat out untruths and happy talk as his own advisors wince and the medical professionals frown and hang their heads.Now hes weeding them off the stage so they cant call out his bullshit in real time.
My wife who is a medical professional has been told to make her own masks as best as she can as coronavirus explodes in grant co.They are being advised to reuse masks and only wear them if someone has symptoms. I have a dentist friend who had to close his clinic per govt order so the medical supplies could be raided.
ARE YOU FING KIDDING ME??? Damn right Im pist. Not just at Trump either but he shares a lot of blame. Stories emerge every day about positions eliminated including one in China monitoring infectious diseases that was defunded late last summer, disbanding the CDC pandemic team, even proposed cuts to the CDC after the virus was active. As it was the US knew within 2 weeks of china about this virus, not months as Trump has said. Still no tests, no supplies. The reaction of this government was dreadful.By the time you roll in stuff like Senators cashing in millions in stock along with the billionaires in the know I swear the prisons ought to be full of all these people when this is all said and done. If a few of them croaked from this it would be poetic justice.

And worse, now they're saying we should go back to normal and be willing to DIE to save the economy! https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/tex ... 31075.html

[RiverDog]

Not sure what you mean by "stood up for" asian americans. He did so after they started getting assaulted over TRUMPS repeated use of the term "Chinese virus". Its akin to "very nice people on both sides" and the like. The guys a racist, clearly .It doesn't excuse other racists behavior but hes the racist in chief.

Then there's this.https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/03 ... s-pandemic
The surgeon general added "this is going to get really bad" and suggesting everyone act like they have it.

As was stated earlier in the thread Trump thinks we can do this half assed unregulated 2 week pause we're a week into and then its business as usual as cases double every 2 to 3 days .He may want to check with his buddy Boris in the UK who had the same theory ie cure is worse than the disease, carry on. He just locked down the entire nation and gave an impassioned coherent statement explaining why we must distance. Everyone gets sick at once. The medical system is overwhelmed and people start dying in droves. As Johnson pointed out not just from the virus but other illnesses as supplies dwindle and medical professionals become infected. He called it the worst pandemic we have faced in many decades.
Now there's a man who has developed some common sense.POTUS on the other hand...

I have laid off Trump for the most part, its not really a time for a lot of politics. The election is completely off the radar.

But I've had enough of the babbling baboon. As Bernie Sanders said so correctly at the last debate when asked about his response to the virus he said "we have to shut this president up right now. Hes blabbering non factual information to the american people" hear hear. STFU
In late Feb he was at his Trumpanzee rally calling this a "democratic hoax". 3 weeks ago he said we had 15 cases, soon to be one then zero". He called Jay inslee a "snake" while addressing the CDC no less for having been completely upstaged by Inslee who was weeks ahead of him in social distancing measures while dealing with the biggest crisis in the nation with no federal direction. When the market plunged after his first 2 incoherent addresses on the subject he seemed to grasp the reality of the situation for a while.he seemed almost humble. I lauded the appointment of Pence and his conferences were serious and informative, medical people were present, reassuring to a point the the government had a plan.

Then Trump realized Pence was getting high marks, Cuomo in NY was a media must see every day so the pathologically narcissistic Baboon had to start hijacking these briefings again, rambling on about how the economy used to be the best in the world or whatever else flies out of his mouth. Then he spouting flat out untruths and happy talk as his own advisors wince and the medical professionals frown and hang their heads.Now hes weeding them off the stage so they cant call out his bullshit in real time.
My wife who is a medical professional has been told to make her own masks as best as she can as coronavirus explodes in grant co.They are being advised to reuse masks and only wear them if someone has symptoms. I have a dentist friend who had to close his clinic per govt order so the medical supplies could be raided.

ARE YOU FING KIDDING ME??? Damn right Im pist. Not just at Trump either but he shares a lot of blame. Stories emerge every day about positions eliminated including one in China monitoring infectious diseases that was defunded late last summer, disbanding the CDC pandemic team, even proposed cuts to the CDC after the virus was active. As it was the US knew within 2 weeks of china about this virus, not months as Trump has said. Still no tests, no supplies. The reaction of this government was dreadful.By the time you roll in stuff like Senators cashing in millions in stock along with the billionaires in the know I swear the prisons ought to be full of all these people when this is all said and done. If a few of them croaked from this it would be poetic justice.

Hey, my friend! Great to see you back in the fray. I was beginning to get worried.

You hit the nail on the head. Trump's the only one that's using this term "Chinese virus", and he's doing it because it benefits him politically. It's been his style ever since he announced his candidacy: Be as rude and insulting as one can and it will motivate his base.

I agree with most every thing you've said, but I'm stopping short of your "poetic justice" comment. As vile as some of those individuals are, they have families that are likely innocent and undeserving of having their loved ones taken from them.

[RiverDog]

And worse, now they're saying we should go back to normal and be willing to DIE to save the economy! https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/tex ... 31075.html

If we were 5-6 months into this process, then I could understand having this discussion. But at this point, all we are doing is giving those that are reluctant or doubters a reason not to comply with what had started out as a reasonable plan to attack the crisis. We're not going to be successful if everyone is going off on their own tangent.

Besides, at this point, there's nothing that Trump or anyone else can do to "get back to normal". It's not that easy to get a frightened public back on the streets and in the stores buying goods. As long as the economy is going to be in the dumpster no matter what we do, we might as well follow the previously established guidelines and hope for the best.

[c_hawkbob]

I've got a niece in the hospital getting tested right now. She has cancer and was sent to the hospital from her Dr's visit. Just facetimed with her, she's pretty scared.

[RiverDog]

I've got a niece in the hospital getting tested right now. She has cancer and was sent to the hospital from her Dr's visit. Just facetimed with her, she's pretty scared.

Holy cow! Nothing scarier than cancer. Best wishes for a positive outcome, my friend!

[c_hawkbob]

Thanks. She's had the cancer for a while, (it some form of blood cancer I believe) and was at the Dr for a usual checkup when they sent her to the hospital to be checked for Covid-19. She's all geared up and stuff so all you could see were he eyes ... the scary part is if she tests positive, what the virus will do compounded with the cancer.

[RiverDog]

Thanks. She's had the cancer for a while, (it some form of blood cancer I believe) and was at the Dr for a usual checkup when they sent her to the hospital to be checked for Covid-19. She's all geared up and stuff so all you could see were he eyes ... the scary part is if she tests positive, what the virus will do compounded with the cancer.

I hear what you are saying. One of our fears about COVID-19 is that my wife has MS, so her immune system is already compromised. Once again, good luck!

There is some good news in this fight. The latest figure I heard reported for the current death rate of COVID-19 in the US was that it's around 1.3%, well below the worldwide rate of 3.4%. Italy is at nearly 10%, but that's more of a reflection of their demographical difference. Additionally, we're getting into the warmer and wetter spring months, and viruses generally don't like sunlight, high temperature, and high humidity. Hopefully it will be like the flu and subside when summer finally arrives.

I heard VP Pence saying that they are or will be distributing self testing swabs so as to lessen the risk to health care workers and the PPE shortage, but my understanding is that the swabs have to be stuck way up the nasal passage, and unless the self test is less invasive, there's probably going to be a lot of false negatives.

Trump isn't going to be able to end the lockdowns and stay at home orders. That's up to the governors of the various states, and most of the hardest hit states, including WA, CA, and NY have Democratic governors not beholden to his demands. Besides, I seriously doubt he'd be able to ignore those he's employed within his own administration, like Dr. Fauci and the surgeon general, if they come out against it. I doubt that he'd have the balls to fire them like he has with so many he's had disagreements with.

After a lot of silly political haggling on both sides of the aisle, it would appear that the Senate is coming close to approving a coronavirus relief bill.

[Aseahawkfan]

That's not the point. Yes, those idiots would still be there. But when the POTUS says things that strikes a certain cord within their psyche, it can and does give them the perceived freedom to express their deep seated hatred against anyone that doesn't look or talk like them. It gives them comfort in the knowledge that their POV is perfectly acceptable behavior.

I don't think it does. I'm not sure your experience, but the racists don't become nicer when Obama or Clinton are president or meaner when Trump is president. The media hypes it up, but they do their thing regardless of who is president. I don't think blaming the president is in any way relevant. I don't think that many people listen to the president as their daily interactions or adapt their lives according to the president. I still recall reading story after story of race relations worsening because Obama was showing favoritism towards black people, but that was just more right wing propaganda. I consider most of the articles about Trump left wing propaganda that people buy into who are against him. All anecdotal evidence with nearly nothing to compare it against other than people's feelings, which are notoriously inaccurate.

You've always held yourself to be a tolerant and understanding individual so I have no doubt that you are not an active participant or that you would change your POV based on what the POTUS says. It's too bad that the rest of our citizens don't share our perspective.

No one is going to change the minds of folks that have intolerant POV's. But you can marginalize them, isolate them from the rest of society and deny them their martyr. After a period of time, their way of thinking becomes extinct as it cannot spread as rapidly amongst weak minded individuals looking for an excuse to explain their own shortcomings as it can when you're hero is on the bully pulpit preaching his bigotry. And don't think that j/b you don't personally see it that it doesn't exist. It doesn't have to be an overt expression or even a verbal one. A stink eyed frown speaks volumes.

I don't see people like others do. Never have, never will. So it's not a matter of tolerant so much as never investing in any ideologies that might be termed intolerant. I see no logic in believing in foolish ideas that have no logical basis. In instances of "race", it is considered a good thing. I also don't believe in things like religion or The Bible for the same reason. They are illogical belief systems with no foundation predicated on the scientific process or a rational thought process. I have a real disdain for irrational behavior. You might find me somewhat intolerant of crazy people or drug addicts for this reason. I do not like being around people whose behavior is impaired for some reason, especially if self-inflicted like drug addicts. My friends find me cold, but I prefer to live my life as logically as possible than to live an illogical, emotionally driven life like the majority seem to do leading to an often disorganized, poor, illogical life where they seek to blame external forces often of their own making for their situation whether the illogical complaints of Americans thinking immigrants took their jobs or the illogical thinking of liberals thinking capitalism is somehow against them. Both are highly illogical and detrimental to their own interests, but incapable of seeing why and adjusting accordingly.

I have a different view of the president's ability to alter the world than most. I don't think he has that much of an effect. I think the media has a far, far larger affect on both perception and actions than the president. That is proving itself once again in these corona virus times. I think the media has greatly magnified and framed the president's words as racists as thus giving them more power than they would otherwise have within the context of his speech. I think they have been doing that for quite a while as journalism is no longer politically neutral, but carefully crafted towards a particular political agenda and framed for the consumption of the masses eliciting a confirmation bias reaction by the various political affiliations.

That's how I see it. Not to say Trump doesn't say some dumb things, but I don't give them the power others do.

[Aseahawkfan]

And worse, now they're saying we should go back to normal and be willing to DIE to save the economy! https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/tex ... 31075.html

Sorry to hear about your niece. I'm in the danger zone as well having high blood pressure according to the listed comorbidities. And I can't not go to work as I work for essential infrastructure that cannot shut down much like you.

I'm of the mind at some point we have to get the economy back up, but Trump's timeline is too soon in my opinion. I am thinking more May to June they should start ramping back up as over two quarters of economic down time would ruin more lives than the stay at home will save in my opinion. If we ramp back up and the virus mutates into something more dangerous, then the world as we know it is going to be destroyed for far longer. We have to hope that doesn't happen.

[Aseahawkfan]

Then there's this.https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/03 ... s-pandemic
The surgeon general added "this is going to get really bad" and suggesting everyone act like they have it.

As was stated earlier in the thread Trump thinks we can do this half assed unregulated 2 week pause we're a week into and then its business as usual as cases double every 2 to 3 days .He may want to check with his buddy Boris in the UK who had the same theory ie cure is worse than the disease, carry on. He just locked down the entire nation and gave an impassioned coherent statement explaining why we must distance. Everyone gets sick at once. The medical system is overwhelmed and people start dying in droves. As Johnson pointed out not just from the virus but other illnesses as supplies dwindle and medical professionals become infected. He called it the worst pandemic we have faced in many decades.
Now there's a man who has developed some common sense.POTUS on the other hand...

I have laid off Trump for the most part, its not really a time for a lot of politics. The election is completely off the radar.

But I've had enough of the babbling baboon. As Bernie Sanders said so correctly at the last debate when asked about his response to the virus he said "we have to shut this president up right now. Hes blabbering non factual information to the american people" hear hear. STFU
In late Feb he was at his Trumpanzee rally calling this a "democratic hoax". 3 weeks ago he said we had 15 cases, soon to be one then zero". He called Jay inslee a "snake" while addressing the CDC no less for having been completely upstaged by Inslee who was weeks ahead of him in social distancing measures while dealing with the biggest crisis in the nation with no federal direction. When the market plunged after his first 2 incoherent addresses on the subject he seemed to grasp the reality of the situation for a while.he seemed almost humble. I lauded the appointment of Pence and his conferences were serious and informative, medical people were present, reassuring to a point the the government had a plan.

Then Trump realized Pence was getting high marks, Cuomo in NY was a media must see every day so the pathologically narcissistic Baboon had to start hijacking these briefings again, rambling on about how the economy used to be the best in the world or whatever else flies out of his mouth. Then he spouting flat out untruths and happy talk as his own advisors wince and the medical professionals frown and hang their heads.Now hes weeding them off the stage so they cant call out his bullshit in real time.
My wife who is a medical professional has been told to make her own masks as best as she can as coronavirus explodes in grant co.They are being advised to reuse masks and only wear them if someone has symptoms. I have a dentist friend who had to close his clinic per govt order so the medical supplies could be raided.
ARE YOU FING KIDDING ME??? Damn right Im pist. Not just at Trump either but he shares a lot of blame. Stories emerge every day about positions eliminated including one in China monitoring infectious diseases that was defunded late last summer, disbanding the CDC pandemic team, even proposed cuts to the CDC after the virus was active. As it was the US knew within 2 weeks of china about this virus, not months as Trump has said. Still no tests, no supplies. The reaction of this government was dreadful.By the time you roll in stuff like Senators cashing in millions in stock along with the billionaires in the know I swear the prisons ought to be full of all these people when this is all said and done. If a few of them croaked from this it would be poetic justice.

2 weeks is too short. I would think tamping down until May to June is necessary. If I was Trump, I would pretty much tell private industry that you will need to come up with a compliant means of operating with the virus to open your doors again. I highly suggest you start looking into a means of creating a very clean, virus safe form of operation so we can get the economy slowly back to operational status. Private industry can do a good job of creating a cost effective, efficient system of operating under a virus situation. They have about two months to come up with a good means of creating a safe work environment if they want to get going again.

Do you think if this virus continues on Trump will declare an emergency situation and maintain the presidency for additional time? Can the president delay elections during a pandemic?

[RiverDog]

Do you think if this virus continues on Trump will declare an emergency situation and maintain the presidency for additional time? Can the president delay elections during a pandemic?

I've thought about that myself. My guess is that it would have to go through the Supreme Court as it would be in direct violation of the Constitution, but I don't know that for sure. The states are in charge of holding their own elections, actually choosing their electors, so the federal government wouldn't have the authority to tell the states not to hold elections. That's my opinion anyway. If the crisis is still with us, they can pretty easily go to vote by mail or implement other protocols to protect voters.

I've also wondered if Trump lost the election, particularly if it's a close one like last time, if he would refuse to accept the results and declare it fake news.

Although I consider both of those scenarios very remote, there's nothing that we should put past this man.

[RiverDog]

2 weeks is too short. I would think tamping down until May to June is necessary. If I was Trump, I would pretty much tell private industry that you will need to come up with a compliant means of operating with the virus to open your doors again. I highly suggest you start looking into a means of creating a very clean, virus safe form of operation so we can get the economy slowly back to operational status. Private industry can do a good job of creating a cost effective, efficient system of operating under a virus situation. They have about two months to come up with a good means of creating a safe work environment if they want to get going again.

The President doesn't have the authority to overrule the governor of a state as there's nothing in the Constitution or federal law that gives him that power. If Inslee issues a mandate for certain businesses to remain closed, there's nothing short of going to court that Trump could do to force them back open. If the situation were reversed, he could probably order them to shut down in the name of public safety, but it's pretty hard to argue that it's in the interest of public safety, national security, etc, that businesses be forced to open.

Besides, he can't force people to start traveling again, start booking vacations, start patronizing resteraunts. It's going to take a change in consumer confidence to get the economy back on its feet, and the only way I could see that happening quickly is if they suddenly announced that they had an effective vaccine ready for distribution. As you have said yourself, the president is pretty powerless when it comes to the economy. It runs itself.

[Aseahawkfan]

The President doesn't have the authority to overrule the governor of a state. If Inslee issues a mandate for certain businesses to remain closed, there's nothing short of going to court that Trump could do to force them back open. If the situation were reversed, he could probably order them to shut down in the name of public safety, but it's pretty hard to argue that it's in the interest of public safety, national security, etc, that businesses be forced to open.

Besides, he can't force people to start traveling again, start booking vacations, start patronizing resteraunts. It's going to take a change in consumer confidence to get the economy back on its feet, and the only way I could see that happening quickly is if they suddenly announced that they had an effective vaccine ready for distribution. As you have said yourself, the president is pretty powerless when it comes to the economy. It runs itself.

So you tell me, how do you think Americans are going to do if their options are follow the stay home order and lose everything or go back to work per the president and keep their homes, families fed, and their livelihood going? You think the governors are going to arrest everyone? The Fed and States had better work together.

How long can America or any nation sustain with this limited economic activity? You come out of this and if you don't work for Facebook, Microsft, or Google and or a needed utility and you're screwed?

What level economic damage do you sustain as a person and society before you decide it isn't worth it? Do you want to be getting the A ok from the government six months from now and be standing in food bank lines, unemployment offices with local governments hurtling towards bankruptcy with homelessness and joblessness at an all time high if a second wave of corona hits next winter?

Tell me what you think is better? You think society will be able to pay social security and medicare indefinitely with no economic activity? How long do you wait? You're saying six months. What do you think America looks like in six months of no to very little economic activity and no tax money filling the local, state, or federal government? How does that look? How many lives are worth it? Zero like Cuomo says? Or seniors need to be ready to sacrifice too save the economic damage of the nation from destroying the future for a generation and maybe save very few additional lives? What is the cut off if you were in charge?

This question is pretty much Trump's presidency. He tries to bring the economy back too soon and things flare up to crazy levels and he's done. He does it too late and he's done. It has to happen, but when and how? We shall see.

The governors can talk as much as they want. They have to get the economy going again soon or they are done as well. Cuomo sounds real great right now, when New York is shut down for six or nine months with all those people having no job, no housing, and a hard time getting food or buying anything with those with money getting the hell out, we'll see how long he lasts.

[RiverDog]

So you tell me, how do you think Americans are going to do if their options are follow the stay home order and lose everything or go back to work per the president and keep their homes, families fed, and their livelihood going? You think the governors are going to arrest everyone? The Fed and States had better work together.

There's no doubt about it, the country is going to suffer, some parts more than others. And I agree with you that state and federal governments must work together, but we've seen scant evidence of it so far, at least as far as the POTUS is concerned. But as far as opening or closing specific businesses, the governors are holding all the cards. Trump is going to have to convince them that it's the right thing to do. They don't have to listen to him.

How long can America or any nation sustain with this limited economic activity? You come out of this and if you don't work for Facebook, Microsft, or Google and or a needed utility and you're screwed?

What level economic damage do you sustain as a person and society before you decide it isn't worth it? Do you want to be getting the A ok from the government six months from now and be standing in food bank lines, unemployment offices with local governments hurtling towards bankruptcy with homelessness and joblessness at an all time high if a second wave of corona hits next winter?

Tell me what you think is better? You think society will be able to pay social security and medicare indefinitely with no economic activity? How long do you wait? You're saying six months. What do you think America looks like in six months of no to very little economic activity and no tax money filling the local, state, or federal government? How does that look? How many lives are worth it? Zero like Cuomo says? Or seniors need to be ready to sacrifice too save the economic damage of the nation from destroying the future for a generation and maybe save very few additional lives? What is the cut off if you were in charge?

I can't answer that. Any decision to re-open businesses would have to depend on how the disease is progressing. If some of the projections come true, we could end up with as much as 70% of the population infected, and at the current mortality rate, that figures out to 3 million dead. That's over three times the number of people that died in 4 years of the Civil War. If Washington has a thousand people dying each day, it would be awfully difficult to make a decision to re-open businesses.

This question is pretty much Trump's presidency. He tries to bring the economy back too soon and things flare up to crazy levels and he's done. He does it too late and he's done. It has to happen, but when and how? We shall see.

The governors can talk as much as they want. They have to get the economy going again soon or they are done as well. Cuomo sounds real great right now, when New York is shut down for six or nine months with all those people having no job, no housing, and a hard time getting food or buying anything with those with money getting the hell out, we'll see how long he lasts.

This is the watershed event of the Trump presidency, no question about it. Even if the crisis subsides months before the election, it will still be the biggest issue of the campaign by far. IMO Trump has already handed Biden plenty of ammo for the election campaign, and Biden has the advantage of not even having been in Congress during the crisis.

As far as the governors predicament goes, they have no more power to revive the economy than Trump does. It is going to take many, many months for consumers to regain the confidence they need to start buying again. This could be a very deep, lasting recession. Whether or not people blame their governors for their woes is anybody's guess, but my guess is that deep blue states like New York, California, and Washington won't be blaming Cuomo, Newsom, and Inslee, they'll be blaming Trump.

[Aseahawkfan]

I can't answer that. Any decision to re-open businesses would have to depend on how the disease is progressing. If some of the projections come true, we could end up with as much as 70% of the population infected, and at the current mortality rate, that figures out to 3 million dead. That's over three times the number of people that died in 4 years of the Civil War. If Washington has a thousand people dying each day, it would be awfully difficult to make a decision to re-open businesses.

I doubt the worst case scenario projections hold, but we'll see. 3 million people? You're really even thinking about that number when we are so far from that it would take years to reach that number even at the current rate.

As i told other people, the mortality rate you are currently seeing is a quick and dirty number based on tested cases. If you look how they do the flu math, the mortality rate will likely be substantially smaller given they are not testing mild symptoms or people without symptoms. Even with all the testing they are doing, they are not even close to testing even 1% of the population. It is far more likely that ten times the number tested have or have had this virus, maybe even higher. The mortality rate will likely be more like Germany or South Korea, possibly lower given they have been testing wider and more efficiently than most other places and isolating better.

I'm expecting a final mortality rate of .001 to .002 percent compared to the entire population with an infection rate in the 70% range. You'll see a far lower number of confirmed cases than the 70% estimate because only more severe symptoms will be tested or those with juice to get it done or workers in dangerous professions. With a 80% rate of mild to asymptomatic, there won't be a high percentage of the population tested unless this mutates and gets much worse.

The way this virus works you and your wife could be walking around with it, exhibit no symptoms or mild symptoms, and no one would test you or know better. You would end up part of the estimate at the end of it all.

This is the watershed event of the Trump presidency, no question about it. Even if the crisis subsides months before the election, it will be by far the largest issue of the campaign. IMO Trump has already handed Biden plenty of ammo for the election campaign, and Biden has the advantage of not even having been in Congress during the crisis.

If Trump is president when this thing subsides, he'll likely get a ton of votes just from relief. Biden can talk as much as he wants and the media can rail, but people will be so relieved, ready to go back to work, and disinterested in partisan politics they'll probably keep the same president in office to provide a sense of constancy and relief. People do not like change during stressful periods. Same reason people don't often change presidents during war time.

As far as the governors predicament goes, they have no more power to revive the economy than Trump does. It is going to take many, many months for consumers to regain the confidence they need to start buying again. This could be a very deep, lasting recession. Whether or not people blame their governors for their woes is anybody's guess, but my guess is that deep blue states like New York, California, and Washington won't be blaming Cuomo, Newsom, and Inslee, they'll be blaming Trump.

They'll hate whoever is in charge in their state when life is bad. The president will seem like a far away thing. Just like if this thing calms down and things return faster than expected, those governors will get the same relief boost as the president. People will want to keep things the same and keep the guy who successfully navigated this situation in office.

All any of these guys have to do is get through this virus without destroying their economy and they'll win re-election fairly easy. If it goes on too long or they screw up the risk-reward ratio of stay at home versus get economy going, they'll likely be done.

And Biden, Sanders, and all the people looking to take these guys down have to mostly watch helplessly from the sidelines hoping they screw it up to take them down because I'm betting Biden's campaign knows full well that if this thing calms by the election and life gets back to normal, Trump will likely easily win in November. I can't see Americans, especially swing voters wanting change if the president handled this situation well enough to get back to normal. They'll want four more years of knowing how the guy in the White House will handle things.

[RiverDog]

I doubt the worst case scenario projections hold, but we'll see. 3 million people? You're really even thinking about that number when we are so far from that it would take years to reach that number even at the current rate.

I'm simply taking the data and running the math on it. Sure, the mortality rate could be influenced by the number of tests taken as it inflates the denominator. But one thing that could negatively affect the mortality rate is if the health care system gets overloaded and people that need ICU's and ventilators don't get them and are left to die. The current mortality is based on sick people getting the ICU's and ventilators, eventually recovering.

I'm expecting a final mortality rate of .001 to .002 percent compared to the entire population with an infection rate in the 70% range. You'll see a far lower number of confirmed cases than the 70% estimate because only more severe symptoms will be tested or those with juice to get it done or workers in dangerous professions. With a 80% rate of mild to asymptomatic, there won't be a high percentage of the population tested unless this mutates and gets much worse.

The mortality rate isn't the relevant number. What will matter is total deaths, which is almost irrefutable as it's not based on sampling but rather actual bodies. Here's a projection on the current number of deaths attributed to COVID-19, broken down by state and by country. Actually, our state looks pretty good while NY is in deep caca:

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/202 ... untry.html

This is the watershed event of the Trump presidency, no question about it. Even if the crisis subsides months before the election, it will be by far the largest issue of the campaign. IMO Trump has already handed Biden plenty of ammo for the election campaign, and Biden has the advantage of not even having been in Congress during the crisis.

If Trump is president when this thing subsides, he'll likely get a ton of votes just from relief. Biden can talk as much as he wants and the media can rail, but people will be so relieved, ready to go back to work, and disinterested in partisan politics they'll probably keep the same president in office to provide a sense of constancy and relief. People do not like change during stressful periods. Same reason people don't often change presidents during war time.

That doesn't always hold true, especially recently. Harry Truman was hugely unpopular during the Korean War and beaten soundly by Eisenhower, who had campaigned as a peace candidate. Same way with Lyndon Johnson during the Vietnam War. People blamed him even though two previous adminstrations and Congress had previously committed to it. Nixon ran as a peace candidate.

If we're still at war with this virus in November, Trump is going to take a big hit. He's the one that first called it a hoax, that didn't react quick enough, that wants to start up business prematurely.

They'll hate whoever is in charge in their state when life is bad. The president will seem like a far away thing. Just like if this thing calms down and things return faster than expected, those governors will get the same relief boost as the president. People will want to keep things the same and keep the guy who successfully navigated this situation in office.

I disagree. People will default to their political roots. Democrats will blame the Republicans and Republicans will blame the Democrats. The most affected areas, ie urban areas, are undoubtedly solid blue.

[Aseahawkfan]

I'm simply taking the data and running the math on it. Sure, the mortality rate could be influenced by the number of tests taken as it inflates the denominator. But one thing that could negatively affect the mortality rate is if the health care system gets overloaded and people that need ICU's and ventilators don't get them and are left to die. The current mortality is based on sick people getting the ICU's and ventilators, eventually recovering.

Where did you get that the mortality rate is based on that criteria? As near as I can tell the mortality rate is based on deaths versus confirmed cases? That is the number being used from what I have seen.

The mortality rate isn't the relevant number. What will matter is total deaths, which is almost irrefutable as it's not based on sampling but rather actual bodies. Here's a projection on the current number of deaths attributed to COVID-19, broken down by state and by country. Actually, our state looks pretty good while NY is in deep caca:

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/202 ... untry.html

What do you mean? The total deaths is way, way, way off 3 million you're predicting for America alone. It would take years to reach 3 million at the current rate for the world, much less just America. So you seem to be expecting some kind of exponential death rate that isn't occurring even in the worst places like Italy, China, and Spain.

That doesn't always hold true, especially recently. Harry Truman was hugely unpopular during the Korean War and beaten soundly by Eisenhower, who had campaigned as a peace candidate. Same way with Lyndon Johnson during the Vietnam War. People blamed him even though two previous adminstrations and Congress had previously committed to it. Nixon ran as a peace candidate.

I love how you conveniently forget to mention Truman was a vice president that took over when FDR died and won re-election and didn't lose the presidency until after World War 2. That was a terrible example given Truman was president for 8 years. And he was re-elected in a come from behind victory likely because of his war record.

LBJ was also a former vice president that took the presidency over after the death of Kennedy. He was never a front man. So i guess if Trump dies, then Pence would have major problems. Wow. I can't believe you used those two outlier examples.

If we're still at war with this virus in November, Trump is going to take a big hit. He's the one that first called it a hoax, that didn't react quick enough, that wants to start up business prematurely.

He might or people won't want change during a very stressful time. Depends on how he's doing. If I were to predict right now absent any major gaffes by Trump, I think this helps him win re-election.

I disagree. People will default to their political roots. Democrats will blame the Republicans and Republicans will blame the Democrats. The most affected areas, ie urban areas, are undoubtedly solid blue.

Swing voters won't. Swing voters will likely not want change if things appear to be handled by the current administration. Swing voters decide elections, not the already entrenched loons who would believe whatever best suited their opinions of the current president good or bad.

Governors I'm less confident on. They'll probably stick with their party, though they may push a different candidate if the guy looks vulnerable. The governor elections don't have much effect on the presidency.

[RiverDog]

Where did you get that the mortality rate is based on that criteria? As near as I can tell the mortality rate is based on deaths versus confirmed cases? That is the number being used from what I have seen.

The mortality rate is derived by dividing the number of deaths by the number of confirmed cases. The number of confirmed cases can vary depending on how robust the testing is. The number of deaths is more of a constant, and is not as subject to variation. That's why I'm saying that the number of deaths is more significant. Outside of determining the cause of death, you cannot deny that a person died.

What do you mean? The total deaths is way, way, way off 3 million you're predicting for America alone. It would take years to reach 3 million at the current rate for the world, much less just America. So you seem to be expecting some kind of exponential death rate that isn't occurring even in the worst places like Italy, China, and Spain.

I am not "expecting" anything. I am simply running the numbers: Worst case scenario of those infected: 70%. US population: 320 million. 70% of 320 million: 240 million. Times the mortality rate of 1.3%: 2.912 million.

I love how you conveniently forget to mention Truman was a vice president that took over when FDR died and won re-election and didn't lose the presidency until after World War 2. That was a terrible example given Truman was president for 8 years. And he was re-elected in a come from behind victory likely because of his war record.

LBJ was also a former vice president that took the presidency over after the death of Kennedy. He was never a front man. So i guess if Trump dies, then Pence would have major problems. Wow. I can't believe you used those two outlier examples.

They were both incumbent Presidents that won an election in their own right. How they came to power in their first term is irrelevant. Johnson, in particular, won his election in a landslide and ended up leaving office in disgrace due to his management of a war and didn't even opt for another term. Truman left office during the Korean War with an all time record low approval rating of 22% and even said of himself that he couldn't get elected dog catcher. Both are relevant comparisons.

Swing voters won't. Swing voters will likely not want change if things appear to be handled by the current administration. Swing voters decide elections, not the already entrenched loons who would believe whatever best suited their opinions of the current president good or bad.

It's very difficult to predict how swing voters will react. Perhaps it's just wishful thinking, like Idahawkman's boast that Trump's re-election will rival Reagan's 49 state landslide in '84, but my gut feel is that Trump's mismanagement of the coronavirus will drive swing voters to Biden.

Governors I'm less confident on. They'll probably stick with their party, though they may push a different candidate if the guy looks vulnerable. The governor elections don't have much effect on the presidency.

Voters have this tendency to blame everyone except for 'their guy'. They can be polled and give Congress horrible approval ratings yet re-elect the Representative in their district by a landslide. With a villain in the form of Donald Trump that happens to be opposite party of them, they have a ready made scapegoat to displace their anger on.

[RiverDog]

President Trump made a statement that he wants to see the economy open again and wants to see "packed churches" on Easter Sunday, April 12th, less than 3 weeks away:

President Trump said on Fox News he wants the U.S. economy to “open” back up by Easter Sunday, even as the number of coronavirus cases in the country accelerates.

In another Fox interview, Trump said, “You’ll have packed churches all over our country … I think it’ll be a beautiful time.”

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/03/24/coronav ... aster.html

He wants packed churches, with congregations that typically contain a lot of older folks, in a little over two weeks time despite the fact that the coronavirus is escalating and no where near its peak.

[c_hawkbob]

I didn't think he could maintain the pretense of caring about the people for long. Back to worrying only about the economy again.

[RiverDog]

I didn't think he could maintain the pretense of caring about the people for long. Back to worrying only about the economy again.

Personally I don't think he wants the economy to get back to work as much as I think he senses that he's losing power, that the doctors are effectively making all the decisions, that he doesn't like having to share his authority with them. They're the ones that everyone wants to hear from, not him. At least that's what I'm sensing.

Fortunately he doesn't have the authority to force governors to rescind their proclamations, so the stay at home and keep businesses closed orders will remain in effect no matter what Trump says.

[I-5]

What bothers him among many things that don't include actually caring about other people, is he can't hold his rallies. So uses the podium to rattle off his usual truth bending. I'm amazed that the country tolerates out and out lying to our faces. The Fox interview was the most cowardly ever, since you know the interviewers knew he was lying but didn't bother.

[Aseahawkfan]

The mortality rate is derived by dividing the number of deaths by the number of confirmed cases. The number of confirmed cases can vary depending on how robust the testing is. The number of deaths is more of a constant, and is not as subject to variation. That's why I'm saying that the number of deaths is more significant. Outside of determining the cause of death, you cannot deny that a person died.

I am not "expecting" anything. I am simply running the numbers: Worst case scenario of those infected: 70%. US population: 320 million. 70% of 320 million: 240 million. Times the mortality rate of 1.3%: 2.912 million.

Fortunately for us that is not how infectious disease works. When I get to work later, I'll see if I can find a good post explaining flu math and the peak that usually occurs for infectious disease. The math you used assumes a linear model, which is not in general how infectious disease works. It usually works more like a peaking distribution where you see a sort of flat build up as the virus spreads, then an explosion leading to a peak, then a flattening of the curve as the deaths lead to less extreme cases. What we're waiting for right now is like what China eventually reached where they peaked and started to drop off. Hopefully it comes soon in Italy and sooner in America. We're about to hit 1000 dead. New York is going to get slaughtered.

They were both incumbent Presidents that won an election in their own right. How they came to power in their first term is irrelevant. Johnson, in particular, won his election in a landslide and ended up leaving office in disgrace due to his management of a war and didn't even opt for another term. Truman left office during the Korean War with an all time record low approval rating of 22% and even said of himself that he couldn't get elected dog catcher. Both are relevant comparisons.

If your examples hold true, then Trump will be in office for a second term. Both of these presidents served over four years and won what would be the equivalent of second terms due to the circumstances of their ascension. I found it interesting that you can circumvent the two term limit if the president is killed or impeached during your time as vice president. I did not know that. So at least your examples allowed me to learn that little tidbit.

Voters have this tendency to blame everyone except for 'their guy'. They can be polled and give Congress horrible approval ratings yet re-elect the Representative in their district by a landslide. With a villain in the form of Donald Trump that happens to be opposite party of them, they have a ready made scapegoat to displace their anger on.

Some people love Trump. All he has to do to get re-elected at this point is not mess up this virus action. This has really given him a chance to push his re-election stronger if he can get through this.

[Aseahawkfan]

What bothers him among many things that don't include actually caring about other people, is he can't hold his rallies. So uses the podium to rattle off his usual truth bending. I'm amazed that the country tolerates out and out lying to our faces. The Fox interview was the most cowardly ever, since you know the interviewers knew he was lying but didn't bother.

If we didn't accept lying to our face, we would never have a president. Trump lies more than most or "sells" as I see it since we elected a salesman and entertainer more interested in selling his vision to America. But look at Obama. The guy tried to sell us Obamacare would be deficit neutral, but it wasn't. He sold us on this terrible iran deal, but Iran didn't stop undermining us and attacking us. World leaders get up all the time and have to tell us stuff that isn't necessarily true, but some are better at it than others. I'm sure the Canadian leadership lies quite a bit and you don't find out until later when some reporter digs something up or points something out that people ignored.

It's why so many lawyers have been president. Lawyers know how to say a whole lot or word a lie in a way that doesn't sound like they're lying. Salesman on the other hand do not, but they know how to sell a vision to a crowd that wants that vision to be true. That is how Trump works. He sells the dream to the crowd he's talking to. That is how politicians often win election from a plurality in a Democracy whether here or abroad. Lots of lying and storytelling and selling.

Though I will admit Trump often lies needlessly just to talk himself up. That is where he gets kind of annoying and dumb.

[RiverDog]

Fortunately for us that is not how infectious disease works. When I get to work later, I'll see if I can find a good post explaining flu math and the peak that usually occurs for infectious disease. The math you used assumes a linear model, which is not in general how infectious disease works. It usually works more like a peaking distribution where you see a sort of flat build up as the virus spreads, then an explosion leading to a peak, then a flattening of the curve as the deaths lead to less extreme cases. What we're waiting for right now is like what China eventually reached where they peaked and started to drop off. Hopefully it comes soon in Italy and sooner in America. We're about to hit 1000 dead. New York is going to get slaughtered.

I'd be delighted to read whatever you have on the subject. I was not necessarily trying to say that this virus would act according to any model. There's too many things we don't yet know about this virus to predict if it will follow a given model. Like I said, I wasn't offering it as a prediction, I was simply giving one possible scenario.

They were both incumbent Presidents that won an election in their own right. How they came to power in their first term is irrelevant. Johnson, in particular, won his election in a landslide and ended up leaving office in disgrace due to his management of a war and didn't even opt for another term. Truman left office during the Korean War with an all time record low approval rating of 22% and even said of himself that he couldn't get elected dog catcher. Both are relevant comparisons.

If your examples hold true, then Trump will be in office for a second term. Both of these presidents served over four years and won what would be the equivalent of second terms due to the circumstances of their ascension.

I would argue that neither won their 2nd terms due solely to the circumstances surrounding their assentation to office. Johnson, in particular, would have beaten the pants off Goldwater no matter how he came to office. Goldwater was as extreme of a candidate as Bernie Sanders is and scared the crapola out of people.

I found it interesting that you can circumvent the two term limit if the president is killed or impeached during your time as vice president. I did not know that. So at least your examples allowed me to learn that little tidbit.

Not exactly. Here's the operative phrase of the 22nd Amendment: No person shall be elected to the office of the President more than twice, and no person who has held the office of President, or acted as President, for more than two years of a term to which some other person was elected President shall be elected to the office of the President more than once.

So in other words, Johnson could have run for a 2nd term in 1968 not because he ascended to the office following JFK's assassination, rather because he served less than 2 years of Kennedy's elected term...about 14 months from November 1963 to January 1965. Gerald Ford, on the other hand, would have been eligible to run for just one term beyond the one he completed after Nixon resigned as he served from August 1974 until January 1977, or about 29 months of Nixon's elected term. Truman would have been exempt from the 22nd Amendment and could have run for as many terms as he pleased.

[Aseahawkfan]

Ah ok. That makes sense as the 22nd Amendment was created because of FDR who had Truman as his vice president.

[RiverDog]

Ah ok. That makes sense as the 22nd Amendment was created because of FDR who had Truman as his vice president.

Yep. There was specific language put into the 22nd that grandfathered anyone holding the office when the amendment was proposed.

[Aseahawkfan]

The math behind epidemics is called an epi curve. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epidemic_curve

We're in the building part of the curve which is the middle portion of the statistical recording. I couldn't find an article that simplified the math. It is statistical modeling. If you have a good grasp of statistics, you'll be ale to understand the model. If you look a the pictures, it should be easy to understand that you have the initial virus spread which shows a rising number of cases, then the explosion as the most serious cases and deaths occur, then a decline as the number of severe cases lessens and the population starts to develop a group immunity that slows down the spread with the virus having no where to go having killed all the vulnerable people and unable to continue to infect and sicken the immune people.

A short informative video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LqKwAIIy-Mo

[RiverDog]

Thanks for the info.

According to some mathematical models, we may be hitting our peak in 3-4 weeks and that the death toll will be "ghastly":

https://www.ibtimes.com/coronavirus-usa ... ct-2946967

I also read an article that pointed out that the sudden increase of cases in NOLA has the experts concerned that warmer weather and higher humidity might not slow the virus down. You don't get much warmer and humid than the Big Easy. There's also talk of the possibility of a second wave of infections. Experts are keeping a close eye on China to see if they have a resurgence in the number of cases as they relax restrictions.

There's still a whole lot of unknowns about this virus.

[Aseahawkfan]

Given how humans think, any death toll is bad. Humans understandably dislike death from any source. Pragmatism alone is why we will be relieved if the worst case scenarios don't occur and we can avoid even a bad flu season. Time will tell. The disease is still not accelerating yet where millions of deaths is a reality. I hope it doesn't come close to accelerating to that level.

China either did an amazing job keeping these cases low in a nation with 1.4 billion people or they are lying. I don't know which though I am very dubious they arrested this with 80000 cases and 3000 deaths. If so, I guess they are proving that a socialist or private healthcare model is not best, but a draconian communist model of healthcare.

[RiverDog]

Given how humans think, any death toll is bad. Humans understandably dislike death from any source. Pragmatism alone is why we will be relieved if the worst case scenarios don't occur and we can avoid even a bad flu season. Time will tell. The disease is still not accelerating yet where millions of deaths is a reality. I hope it doesn't come close to accelerating to that level.

China either did an amazing job keeping these cases low in a nation with 1.4 billion people or they are lying. I don't know which though I am very dubious they arrested this with 80000 cases and 3000 deaths. If so, I guess they are proving that a socialist or private healthcare model is not best, but a draconian communist model of healthcare.

It's the way they die that shocks people. I saw a video today of a tractor/trailer rig with a refrigerated van backing up to a loading dock to haul away corpses. That's one of the reasons why I say that it's going to take quite a long time before people get back on their feet and start resuming their normal activities.

We should be able to figure out if China was being truthful in the post mortem. We will have enough case examples that we can make comparative studies and find out if their numbers fit a similar pattern to other countries or if they are under reporting. But it is a pretty well known fact that they were less than forthcoming at the start of this outbreak.

I saw Dr. Fauci being interviewed yesterday, and they asked him point blank about Trump's goal of starting the economy in two weeks. Fauci, who's been having to dance on the head of a pin working for such a twist the facts man as Trump is, did a pretty good job of not outright telling them that Trump was full if it yet said quite bluntly that the virus will set the timeline, not politicians.

Along the same subject, I read where they might be able to come up with a test for those already infected to see if they've built up enough antibodies to where their risk of re-infection is low. They'll be trying to test health care workers first.

On a personal note, I had a chat with my daughter, a nurse at a UC in Spokane, this morning. She said that their reported cases in Spokane county doubled yesterday, from 33 to 54. She'll be moving to their high risk respiratory clinic next week. They'll be trying to triage patients, figure out which can self treat and which need to go to the hospital. She seemed a little less concerned than last time I chatted with her, thinks they have everything under control.

[Aseahawkfan]

It's the way they die that shocks people. I saw a video today of a tractor/trailer rig with a refrigerated van backing up to a loading dock to haul away corpses. That's one of the reasons why I say that it's going to take quite a long time before people get back on their feet and start resuming their normal activities.

Young people forget quickly or don't pay attention at all. This isn't like 9/11 either where not traveling was based on the threat of a surprise terrorist attack. And planes have not been pushed as the primary source of the spread. I think people are going to be so stir-crazy and full of energy after being stuck in their homes that they will be out buying and doing stuff quickly when the government gives them the ok. Even you gotta be going a little nuts stuck in your place like you are.

We should be able to figure out if China was being truthful in the post mortem. We will have enough case examples that we can make comparative studies and find out if their numbers fit a similar pattern to other countries or if they are under reporting. But it is a pretty well known fact that they were less than forthcoming at the start of this outbreak.

For Italy and Spain that would already point to China not telling the truth. Then again it sounds like Spain and Italy did not take this seriously until they had no choice.

On a personal note, I had a chat with my daughter, a nurse at a UC in Spokane, this morning. She said that their reported cases in Spokane county doubled yesterday, from 33 to 54. She'll be moving to their high risk respiratory clinic next week. They'll be trying to triage patients, figure out which can self treat and which need to go to the hospital. She seemed a little less concerned than last time I chatted with her, thinks they have everything under control.

They getting better testing? I would think the places with lower population density will have an easier time social distancing and avoiding the worst of it like New York and parts of California though they are least a huge state like Texas.

Hopefully your daughter has no serious medical problems and is in the nice younger female, no serious comorbidities low risk group. Health worker is an already tough job and right now they are basically our military in this pandemic.

[RiverDog]

For Italy and Spain that would already point to China not telling the truth. Then again it sounds like Spain and Italy did not take this seriously until they had no choice.

Europe was first out of the gate with this after China, so they have a bit more of an excuse for not being prepared. We don't have that same excuse. For the amount of warning we had, we were very unprepared. I have no doubt that after this crisis is over, that that Congress is going to do a major investigation into our response. A lot of it will be political BS, but they need to find out what went wrong and what we can do to correct it.

On a personal note, I had a chat with my daughter, a nurse at a UC in Spokane, this morning. She said that their reported cases in Spokane county doubled yesterday, from 33 to 54. She'll be moving to their high risk respiratory clinic next week. They'll be trying to triage patients, figure out which can self treat and which need to go to the hospital. She seemed a little less concerned than last time I chatted with her, thinks they have everything under control.

They getting better testing? I would think the places with lower population density will have an easier time social distancing and avoiding the worst of it like New York and parts of California though they are least a huge state like Texas.

Hopefully your daughter has no serious medical problems and is in the nice younger female, no serious comorbidities low risk group. Health worker is an already tough job and right now they are basically our military in this pandemic.

They opened up a drive-in testing facility at the fairgrounds two weeks ago. Some of the increase in reported cases is due to their more robust testing. That's one of the problems with using reported cases as a means of tracking the disease's progress. Spokane is a lot less densely populated, which should help. One of the advantages that we have up here is that the weather this time of year sucks, so people don't generally congregate in large groups anyway.

I appreciate your concern about my daughter. She's in excellent health, doesn't smoke or do drugs. You're exactly right about nurses being our front line defense similar to our military. Indeed, IMO we should consider a National Guard-type reserve of doctors and nurses in case of a national emergency, natural disaster, act of war, etc, as part of our post mortem response.

[RiverDog]

Young people forget quickly or don't pay attention at all. This isn't like 9/11 either where not traveling was based on the threat of a surprise terrorist attack. And planes have not been pushed as the primary source of the spread. I think people are going to be so stir-crazy and full of energy after being stuck in their homes that they will be out buying and doing stuff quickly when the government gives them the ok. Even you gotta be going a little nuts stuck in your place like you are.

I'm perfectly fine with waiting this thing out. The wife and I are both retired. We have direct access to 20 miles of horse trails, so the dog gets 3-45 minute walks per day, gets lots of exercise chasing jackrabbits.

We should be able to figure out if China was being truthful in the post mortem. We will have enough case examples that we can make comparative studies and find out if their numbers fit a similar pattern to other countries or if they are under reporting. But it is a pretty well known fact that they were less than forthcoming at the start of this outbreak.

On a personal note, I had a chat with my daughter, a nurse at a UC in Spokane, this morning. She said that their reported cases in Spokane county doubled yesterday, from 33 to 54. She'll be moving to their high risk respiratory clinic next week. They'll be trying to triage patients, figure out which can self treat and which need to go to the hospital. She seemed a little less concerned than last time I chatted with her, thinks they have everything under control.

They getting better testing? I would think the places with lower population density will have an easier time social distancing and avoiding the worst of it like New York and parts of California though they are least a huge state like Texas.

Hopefully your daughter has no serious medical problems and is in the nice younger female, no serious comorbidities low risk group. Health worker is an already tough job and right now they are basically our military in this pandemic.

[Aseahawkfan]

Europe was first out of the gate with this after China, so they have a bit more of an excuse for not being prepared. We don't have that same excuse. For the amount of warning we had, we were very unprepared. I have no doubt that after this crisis is over, that that Congress is going to do a major investigation into our response. A lot of it will be political BS, but they need to find out what went wrong and what we can do to correct it.

I don't agree. A few months is not plenty of time to prepare for a pandemic. I'm not going to look at this as a blame game at all. We should be using this as a test period how to ramp up for a pandemic without having to make long lasting, expensive changes to our economy. To the use the previous analogy, we don't want to buy a bunch of snow plows we end up selling for a once in a century occurrence. This should primarily be used as a way to learn to manage a pandemic from near zero preparation to a huge ramp up as fast as a possible because we do not expect this to happen very often.

I'm not about to get into the idiot blame being tossed around right now. Just like I don't blame China as though they wanted anything of this kind to occur or any nation. Pandemics like this are extremely difficult to foresee and prepare for. We are doing a good job of it near as I can tell. But the real information on how well we handled it will be after it is all done. Then we can see what worked and what didn't, then plan accordingly.

As far as caring what Trump or Pelosi did or what Biden has to say. I completely ignore those stories. All I'm keeping close track of at the moment is what the trench people are doing.

They opened up a drive-in testing facility at the fairgrounds two weeks ago. Some of the increase in reported cases is due to their more robust testing. That's one of the problems with using reported cases as a means of tracking the disease's progress. Spokane is a lot less densely populated, which should help. One of the advantages that we have up here is that the weather this time of year sucks, so people don't generally congregate in large groups anyway.

Should help, so you don't end like New York or California.

I appreciate your concern about my daughter. She's in excellent health, doesn't smoke or do drugs. You're exactly right about nurses being our front line defense similar to our military. Indeed, IMO we should consider a National Guard-type reserve of doctors and nurses in case of a national emergency, natural disaster, act of war, etc, as part of our post mortem response.

That is good. If she gets sick and recovers fairly quickly, she'll have immunity for the time being hopefully. I know a bunch of the medical folks getting sick are itching to get back as fast as a possible to help now they have most likely acquired immunity.

[RiverDog]

Europe was first out of the gate with this after China, so they have a bit more of an excuse for not being prepared. We don't have that same excuse. For the amount of warning we had, we were very unprepared. I have no doubt that after this crisis is over, that that Congress is going to do a major investigation into our response. A lot of it will be political BS, but they need to find out what went wrong and what we can do to correct it.

I don't agree. A few months is not plenty of time to prepare for a pandemic. I'm not going to look at this as a blame game at all.

A lot could have happened in a few months. They could have gotten the test kits out a lot earlier, could have started ramping up production of PPE's, etc. And you might not be into playing the blame game, but it's going to happen. Trump is the man in charge and he's going to be subject to a lot of criticism. Biden is completely blameless as he was not in a position of power so he's going to be making a lot of hay over this during the upcoming election. Whether we like or not and no matter which party is in control, one of the first items on the new Congress's agenda will be to conduct a full scale investigation on the crisis and the government's response to it. You heard it here first.

They opened up a drive-in testing facility at the fairgrounds two weeks ago. Some of the increase in reported cases is due to their more robust testing. That's one of the problems with using reported cases as a means of tracking the disease's progress. Spokane is a lot less densely populated, which should help. One of the advantages that we have up here is that the weather this time of year sucks, so people don't generally congregate in large groups anyway.

Should help, so you don't end like New York or California.

Even though we're not on the scale of large metro areas, it's still a threat. The good thing is that most of the smaller communities aren't near ports of entry so they're in the 2nd wave, so to speak, and have some time to prepare.

I appreciate your concern about my daughter. She's in excellent health, doesn't smoke or do drugs. You're exactly right about nurses being our front line defense similar to our military. Indeed, IMO we should consider a National Guard-type reserve of doctors and nurses in case of a national emergency, natural disaster, act of war, etc, as part of our post mortem response.

That is good. If she gets sick and recovers fairly quickly, she'll have immunity for the time being hopefully. I know a bunch of the medical folks getting sick are itching to get back as fast as a possible to help now they have most likely acquired immunity.

My daughter has always had a calling to help people, since she was very young. When my mom had carpel tunnel surgery, my daughter as a 6 year old loved the thought of helping her grandma recover, being there to help her dress, prepare meals, etc,stayed with her the whole summer. Later, when mom had open heart surgery and my daughter was in college, she volunteered to move in with mom and changed her college plans to accommodate her relocation. I wasn't born with the kind of satisfaction she gets from helping others, but she sure was.

[Aseahawkfan]

A lot could have happened in a few months. They could have gotten the test kits out a lot earlier, could have started ramping up production of PPE's, etc. And you might not be into playing the blame game, but it's going to happen. Trump is the man in charge and he's going to be subject to a lot of criticism. Biden is completely blameless as he was not in a position of power so he's going to be making a lot of hay over this during the upcoming election. Whether we like or not and no matter which party is in control, one of the first items on the new Congress's agenda will be to conduct a full scale investigation on the crisis and the government's response to it. You heard it here first.

Sure, both sides will make a lot of hay trying to blame or take credit around the world. Trump and Fox News will spend plenty of time spinning this into a positive and they are the most watched news station in America. I guess you and Idhawkman if he comes back can spend your time arguing who will win the theoretical PR battle. My only prediction is if Trump can make it out of this with an intact economy and a return to normalcy by a few months before election time, I think he will be well positioned for re-election because Americans won't care about anything else except things are returning to normal and Trump was president through the crisis. People do not like change during trying times. All the squabbling will be the last thing on their minds other than the already partisan loons.

I don't think you can prepare for once in a century pandemics that affect the entire world. It is one of those theoretical events we have managed to control very well in the modern day and we are now being put to the test. For those who understand this, blame will be irrelevant. There is only analysis and preparation for a future event while trying not to over or under prepare. The investigation/analysis to prepare for a future event that will improve the short-term response system will occur around the world by many different governments and organizations.

Even though we're not on the scale of large metro areas, it's still a threat. The good thing is that most of the smaller communities aren't near ports of entry so they're in the 2nd wave, so to speak, and have some time to prepare.

Hopefully we'll have drugs soon and maybe a vaccine by that time otherwise social distancing will be their main defense, which is easier in those isolated areas. Population density and an open, sociable culture is your enemy in a pandemic.

My daughter has always had a calling to help people, since she was very young. When my mom had carpel tunnel surgery, my daughter as a 6 year old loved the thought of helping her grandma recover, being there to help her dress, prepare meals, etc,stayed with her the whole summer. Later, when mom had open heart surgery and my daughter was in college, she volunteered to move in with mom and changed her college plans to accommodate her relocation. I wasn't born with the kind of satisfaction she gets from helping others, but she sure was.

Damn. You and your wife raised her right. Nice to have a daughter with a kindly, loving, caring nature. My father and mother both worked in hospitals all my life. One thing that always surprised me is that people that work in hospitals generally seem to like to help others. I'm sure there are doctors in it for the money, but even many doctors like to help people and especially nurses. Working as healthcare worker attracts a lot of people that like to help others. My mother is that way. My dad also is that way to a degree, though to him it was as much a profession as a means of helping. It must have interested him to do it all those years.

I stay far away from hospitals myself. I've heard the stories. That is rough work, especially state hospitals. My mother worked in a state hospital and has lots of stories and good and bad about that work.

[RiverDog]

I don't think you can prepare for once in a century pandemics that affect the entire world. It is one of those theoretical events we have managed to control very well in the modern day and we are now being put to the test. For those who understand this, blame will be irrelevant. There is only analysis and preparation for a future event while trying not to over or under prepare. The investigation/analysis to prepare for a future event that will improve the short-term response system will occur around the world by many different governments and organizations.

I agree that we would never have been able to have been fully prepared for a pandemic on the scale of what we're seeing, but we could have been a lot more prepared than we were. They've been complaining about running out of PPE's almost since the crisis began. PPE's are easy and cheap to make and they don't have a shelf life. There's no reason why we couldn't have cranked up the production of them and built an inventory two months ago. It's not like they were going to go to waste. We also could have unleashed the various federal agencies much earlier than we did. We're just now getting the Corps of Engineers involved in setting up temporary hospitals. FEMA, as they do when a hurricane approaches, could have pre-positioned resources in places they knew we were going to get hit, like NYC, our most densely populated large city. That's not something that the states could have done for themselves. Had this threat been taken seriously and the warning flags heeded, it would have undoubtedly saved lives. We had an advantage that Italy didn't have in that we could have learned from their experience, yet the current death rate suggests that we're in no better of a position that they were at the same point in time, indeed, one can argue that we're in a worse position as Italy's death rate was compounded by their demographics.

Hopefully we'll have drugs soon and maybe a vaccine by that time otherwise social distancing will be their main defense, which is easier in those isolated areas. Population density and an open, sociable culture is your enemy in a pandemic.

I was surprised to learn that it takes a year to 18 months to develop a vaccine and get it on the market. I'm not sure what the obstacles are, but that's one thing that they should be looking at when we do the post mortem.

Damn. You and your wife raised her right. Nice to have a daughter with a kindly, loving, caring nature. My father and mother both worked in hospitals all my life. One thing that always surprised me is that people that work in hospitals generally seem to like to help others. I'm sure there are doctors in it for the money, but even many doctors like to help people and especially nurses. Working as healthcare worker attracts a lot of people that like to help others. My mother is that way. My dad also is that way to a degree, though to him it was as much a profession as a means of helping. It must have interested him to do it all those years.

I appreciate the complement but a lot of what she possess, particularly this satisfaction she gets from helping others, is a trait she was born with. It's not that I don't give a rip about others, to the contrary, but she has it in spades.

I stay far away from hospitals myself. I've heard the stories. That is rough work, especially state hospitals. My mother worked in a state hospital and has lots of stories and good and bad about that work.

Me, too. I can't stand seeing people die, especially little kids. That's why I'm so impressed with Russell Wilson's routine visits to Children's Hospital. I'd rather put it out of my mind, pretend that it doesn't exist.

In high school, we went on a field trip to the Oregon State Mental Hospital in Pendleton (the facility was briefly mentioned in "One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest") for our psychology class. It was the most sobering experience to that point in my life.