Tarriffs

[idhawkman]

And pay higher prices. Imports from China has helped keep prices down so consumers have more money left over to spend on other items. Besides, unemployment is near record lows, so we don't need those jobs that the Chinese currently perform, most of which are unskilled and low paying.

There are some things, like tennis shoes and sweat shirts, that are going to make sense to produce elsewhere. I could care less if we have a trade deficit so long as our unemployment is low, inflation is low, and the economy is growing at a healthy rate, all of which currently exists. Besides, making China dependent on us has its advantages as it makes it less likely for a war to break out.

Your arguments are too wishy washy to keep straight. You said that we were going to lose jobs if we have a trade war. I pointed out that we would have plenty of work for them in the industries we created by the trade war.

[RiverDog]

Your arguments are too wishy washy to keep straight. You said that we were going to lose jobs if we have a trade war. I pointed out that we would have plenty of work for them in the industries we created by the trade war.

Then quit trying. I'm not asking you to keep anything straight. We will lose jobs, in the automotive and agricultural industries, for starters.

You haven't shown jack. The industries you "created" due to the tariffs...ie steel and aluminum, would take years to materialize. And in the meantime, our domestic industries would be paying higher prices for their raw materials than their foreign competitors. At least in the short term, ie 3-4 years, we would lose more jobs due to the tariffs than any of these jobs you think you can create.

[RiverDog]

My concerns with China are currency manipulation, piracy, intellectual property protection, and property/capital ownership. If they want to own things here, then we need to be able to own things there. They can't steal what we make and do whatever with it. That is rubbish. They have to let their currency rise with their increased GDP output. If their economic power increases, then their currency must rise. At some point China will be the engine of the world economy, they must show a willingness to be a lawful member of the world business community. We can't let them treat us like some vassal state because they can move a population large enough to take us over over here by purchasing property like they do the Phillipines or other areas in Southeast Asia.

I understand your argument, that China is a controlled economy and can manipulate their own currency. But I fail to see how tariffs is going to fix their monetary policy. Besides, Trump has said nothing about their monetary policy. All he talks about is the trade deficit and trying to replace jobs from relatively low employment industries like steel and aluminum. He's playing politics, trying to keep the rust belt states, the ones that put him in office, in his column.

[idhawkman]

Your arguments are too wishy washy to keep straight. You said that we were going to lose jobs if we have a trade war. I pointed out that we would have plenty of work for them in the industries we created by the trade war.

Then quit trying. I'm not asking you to keep anything straight. We will lose jobs, in the automotive and agricultural industries, for starters.

You haven't shown jack. The industries you "created" due to the tariffs...ie steel and aluminum, would take years to materialize. And in the meantime, our domestic industries would be paying higher prices for their raw materials than their foreign competitors. At least in the short term, ie 3-4 years, we would lose more jobs due to the tariffs than any of these jobs you think you can create.

Wow, just Wow! The industries that would create jobs would be in all the things China "used to send us" not Steel and Aluminum. Think about it, if we put tarrifs on them to the tune of now, $250B, do you really think that is all steel and aluminum?

[idhawkman]

My concerns with China are currency manipulation, piracy, intellectual property protection, and property/capital ownership. If they want to own things here, then we need to be able to own things there. They can't steal what we make and do whatever with it. That is rubbish. They have to let their currency rise with their increased GDP output. If their economic power increases, then their currency must rise. At some point China will be the engine of the world economy, they must show a willingness to be a lawful member of the world business community. We can't let them treat us like some vassal state because they can move a population large enough to take us over over here by purchasing property like they do the Phillipines or other areas in Southeast Asia.

I understand your argument, that China is a controlled economy and can manipulate their own currency. But I fail to see how tariffs is going to fix their monetary policy. Besides, Trump has said nothing about their monetary policy. All he talks about is the trade deficit and trying to replace jobs from relatively low employment industries like steel and aluminum. He's playing politics, trying to keep the rust belt states, the ones that put him in office, in his column.

Your TDS is preventing you from hearing him then because he has addressed their monetary policy and manipulation of currencies.

[NorthHawk]

Two ways to respond to your first point. I can demonstrate the absurd by being absurd.
Are you saying you can generate wealth by trading only within your own world (earth)?

Or

I can point out the flaw in your logic.
If you can only generate wealth by trading with others, one or the other will get the better end of the deal in order to "generate wealth". So who do you think is losing in our trades with other countries? Yep, that is right, the US. But don't worry, Trump is fixing that now.

You clearly don't understand how wealth is created.
If you only trade within your own country, the money becomes circular and no new wealth is created. It's only redistributed within society by taking from some and giving it to others as products are bought and sold.
To create wealth you need to expand your markets and draw new sources of money.
It's very simple, injections of new money from outside sources so as to not increase inflation or debt will increase the overall wealth of the country. There's more money for everyone.

Trade does not have to be and should not be a zero sum game. That's a huge mistake that Trump is making if I read his comments correctly. Fair and free trade can make both sides money as the trading proceeds.

[idhawkman]

You clearly don't understand how wealth is created.
If you only trade within your own country, the money becomes circular and no new wealth is created. It's only redistributed within society by taking from some and giving it to others as products are bought and sold.
To create wealth you need to expand your markets and draw new sources of money.
It's very simple, injections of new money from outside sources so as to not increase inflation or debt will increase the overall wealth of the country. There's more money for everyone.

Trade does not have to be and should not be a zero sum game. That's a huge mistake that Trump is making if I read his comments correctly. Fair and free trade can make both sides money as the trading proceeds.

You clearly don't understand how your second paragraph totally undercuts your first paragraph's argument.

[NorthHawk]

You clearly don't understand how your second paragraph totally undercuts your first paragraph's argument.

Please enlighten me.

[idhawkman]

Please enlighten me.

If you can't read and comprehend your own post you are beyond help.

Edited: I can't help you but I found a link that might be able to help you.
http://cwidaho.cc/programs-degrees/english-second-language-esl

[Aseahawkfan]

I understand your argument, that China is a controlled economy and can manipulate their own currency. But I fail to see how tariffs is going to fix their monetary policy. Besides, Trump has said nothing about their monetary policy. All he talks about is the trade deficit and trying to replace jobs from relatively low employment industries like steel and aluminum. He's playing politics, trying to keep the rust belt states, the ones that put him in office, in his column.

This is one of the problems with most of the world, but China is the most dangerous because of their size. A great deal of the world lives with socialized medicine and high quality goods and services because we produce them, they benefit from that production. They also benefit from selling us huge amounts of goods that allow their managed economies to stay healthy, while we police the world and try to stay driven to produce. It's astounding how much of the heavy lifting we Americans and how little respect we get for doing so. When I spent time reading on Canada and Germany, their tax systems, and how much they rely on having this huge behemoth to sell to, the more I feel like we're being exploited. Their military budgets are nothing because one phone call to use keeps the trade ways clear.

When Trump started calling for them to increase their military budgets and pay more for world policing, I was pleased. One of his policies I agree with.

I wish we would have a man like Trump but with better character in office. I guess that type of person is just not able to win The White House any longer in this celebrity driven, overly PC, fake news generation. It's a statement about our country that the guy pushing so many political ideas we need is a pornstar banging, lying, billionaire, gold-throne sitting real estate salesman/reality TV star. Just insane.

[NorthHawk]

[quote="idhawkman"][quote="NorthHawk"]

Please enlighten me.
If you can't read and comprehend your own post you are beyond help.

Edited: I can't help you but I found a link that might be able to help you.
http://cwidaho.cc/programs-degrees/english-second-language-esl



I assumed you were bright enough to understand I was talking about countries trading freely.
I guess I was wrong.

[idhawkman]

Trump is now starting to call for a 20% tarrif on EU cars coming into the US if they don't start taking down their tarrifs on our stuff going there. All Euro auto stocks are down on the news.

[Aseahawkfan]

You clearly don't understand how wealth is created.
If you only trade within your own country, the money becomes circular and no new wealth is created. It's only redistributed within society by taking from some and giving it to others as products are bought and sold.
To create wealth you need to expand your markets and draw new sources of money.
It's very simple, injections of new money from outside sources so as to not increase inflation or debt will increase the overall wealth of the country. There's more money for everyone.

Trade does not have to be and should not be a zero sum game. That's a huge mistake that Trump is making if I read his comments correctly. Fair and free trade can make both sides money as the trading proceeds.

A major part of this is not true. You can indeed create wealth within your nation. Money is not finite or redistributed. Our currency and credit system are constantly creating wealth within the nation. The entire reason the government maintains certain numbers like 2% inflation compared to 3% GDP growth is so that net growth of GDP maintains at 1% or higher thus having wealth grow at a 1% pace.

As far as expanding markets and drawing sources of money, you can do that domestically. The growth of the Internet was a massive wealth creation process within the nation. Expanding to foreign markets assists in expanding wealth, but it is not necessary. In fact, market share from foreign markets may not increase money much at all if more of your money is expanding the foreign market versus what is coming into your nation's market. That's why huge trade deficits can be a problem especially if artificially created because trade partners are imposing import limitations and manipulating their currency to maintain the cheapest costs for production.

And as myself and Idhawkman have stated, we do not have fair and free trade. What we have is a giant economy that everyone wants a piece of with trade deals that mostly benefit corporations and business leaders giving them access to an international labor and consumer market that is either overly unconstrained or far too constrained putting the burden of competition against people with a much lower standard of living than ours and governments with less of an investment in providing stable, open trade routes with military resources. There are a lot of imbalances that should be questioned and improved upon to help Americans maintain a better standard of living.

[RiverDog]

Yea, the Trump tariffs sure are helping American companies and keeping jobs from going overseas, aren't they? smh.

As President Trump pursues a protectionist trade policy, he has pointed repeatedly to Harley-Davidson, the iconic American motorcycle manufacturer, as a company that will ultimately benefit. Instead, it is getting caught in the crossfire.

The Wisconsin company said on Monday it would shift some production of its bikes overseas to avoid stiff retaliatory tariffs imposed by the European Union in response to Mr. Trump’s trade measures. The company said the move “is not the company’s preference, but represents the only sustainable option to make its motorcycles accessible to customers in the E.U. and maintain a viable business in Europe.”

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/25/busi ... riffs.html

[Aseahawkfan]

Yea, the Trump tariffs sure are helping American companies and keeping jobs from going overseas, aren't they? smh.

This guy explains one aspect well enough.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Se7FCe4NrU

Tell me Riverdog, how do you bring China in line? I want you to tell me how to obtain real free trade with these nations engaging in so much underhanded behavior with support from wealthy people in each nation? They love the cheap labor in exploited nations. They love the low taxes in exploited nations. They do not care if you or your children are poor because these businessmen have been abusing cheap labor in other nations for years. If at some point Americans become poor and disenfranchised, they would be just as happy to pay Americans 3rd world wages and use us as a servant class.

Do you really not get it? Say what you will for Trump, these trade ideas he is pushing are like eating bad medicine. It needs to be done. And he isn't pushing it down the road. Like the bulldog that he is, he is pushing it hard against our trading partners to improve deals that help American labor. He has little means to fight other than a trade war. When was the last president that worked to build trade deals on behalf of labor? Even Clinton sold labor out with NAFTA.

And you would prefer he wait for this until our economy is in the tank? What leverage do we have then?

Your short-term thinking is showing through. Harley would likely move it overseas regardless. Demand is dropping domestically and increasing slowly abroad. It's a smart business decision to build them overseas.

[NorthHawk]

You stand up to China by not going it alone.
If Trump really was a great negotiator, he would have created a united front with the EU, NAFTA partners, Australia, and the rest of the world to form a united front against China.
That's what the TPP was, but he pulled out of it unilaterally as it could have been modified somewhat to appease the US interests, as Canada did for itself, but Trump decided to alienate
all or almost all of his allies. This gives China wriggle room and leverage, but losing or restricting access to the 2 wealthiest markets would have hit them pretty hard.

[RiverDog]

Tell me Riverdog, how do you bring China in line?

Thiis one isn't about China, it's about the European Union. Trump's going to battle against all foreign competitors simultaneously. There's going to be a lot of hurt that's going to be shared by a lot of industries and with them, lots of workers that are going to lose their jobs due to Trump's crusade. IMO win, lose, or draw, it's not going to be worth the suffering we're going to have to endure.

But to answser your question, I don't necessarily accept your premise that China has to be brought "in line", or if they do, that it does not rest solely on our shoulders to do so.

[burrrton]

Your short-term thinking is showing through.

As is your lack of self-awareness with statements like this.

[idhawkman]

Yea, the Trump tariffs sure are helping American companies and keeping jobs from going overseas, aren't they? smh.

As President Trump pursues a protectionist trade policy, he has pointed repeatedly to Harley-Davidson, the iconic American motorcycle manufacturer, as a company that will ultimately benefit. Instead, it is getting caught in the crossfire.

The Wisconsin company said on Monday it would shift some production of its bikes overseas to avoid stiff retaliatory tariffs imposed by the European Union in response to Mr. Trump’s trade measures. The company said the move “is not the company’s preference, but represents the only sustainable option to make its motorcycles accessible to customers in the E.U. and maintain a viable business in Europe.”

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/25/busi ... riffs.html

FYI - The financial news outlets have already debunked Harley Davidson's claim that they are moving manufacturing overseas because of the Tarrifs. Again, a bad example to hold up and a bit quick to use what the left news is feeding you.

[NorthHawk]

How is this quote from the company in a regulatory filing explained?

"Increasing international production to alleviate the EU tariff burden is not the company's preference, but represents the only sustainable option to make its motorcycles accessible to customers in the EU and maintain a viable business," the company said in a regulatory filing.

[idhawkman]

How is this quote from the company in a regulatory filing explained?

"Increasing international production to alleviate the EU tariff burden is not the company's preference, but represents the only sustainable option to make its motorcycles accessible to customers in the EU and maintain a viable business," the company said in a regulatory filing.

The truth of the matter is that Harley has been losing revenue in the US for years since the millenials are not buying motorcycles. This is from the CNN Money news.

It makes sense for Harley to reposition its long-term strategy outside the United States: Last quarter, Harley's sales in the United States fell 12%, but they grew 6.8% in Europe, the Middle East, and Africa. In Latin America, sales grew 7%.

Harley announced in January that it was closing its 20-year-old final assembly plant in Kansas City, Missouri, which employed around 800 workers, and consolidating it into its facility in York, Pennsylvania. It said 450 new jobs would be added to the Pennsylvania location.

Harley said the plant consolidation will save it $65 to $75 million a year beginning in 2020.

In recent years, it opened plants in Brazil, India, and Australia. It's beginning operations at a facility in Thailand later this year.

This was all in place long before the Tarrifs came into play. Harley is trying to shift blame away from themselves.

[NorthHawk]

And the tariffs help how?

[idhawkman]

And the tariffs help how?

That's been covered quite a bit in this thread already.

[NorthHawk]

So by making it harder to sell their bikes in the EU, it makes HD better and them moving jobs off shore employs more Americans.
Got it.

[burrrton]

This is shaping up to be one of the biggest self-inflicted wounds in a long, long time:

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa- ... SKBN1JM2LU

[Aseahawkfan]

Trump does need to get some trade deals in place or he's just wasting time. The advantage that many of these foreign leaders have is they don't have to worry about a vote to remain in power. China's leader remains in power regardless of the economy because they are an authoritarian government, whereas voters here will vote the president out if short-term pain hampers their lives. We cannot endure long periods of economic distress without massive political consequences even for a long-term benefit.

[Aseahawkfan]

Thiis one isn't about China, it's about the European Union. Trump's going to battle against all foreign competitors simultaneously. There's going to be a lot of hurt that's going to be shared by a lot of industries and with them, lots of workers that are going to lose their jobs due to Trump's crusade. IMO win, lose, or draw, it's not going to be worth the suffering we're going to have to endure.

But to answser your question, I don't necessarily accept your premise that China has to be brought "in line", or if they do, that it does not rest solely on our shoulders to do so.

I can't really defend it any longer. It's reaching the point of stupidity with no progress on trade deals. Canada is an advantageous trading partner. I have no idea why he is going after them. It's beyond explaining.

European Union is the European Union. Their economies do not drive the world. They are stagnant, slow growing, and far too bogged down by internal regulations to worry about due to their heavily socialized systems and unions. They're trying to backtrack out of their systems. The healthiest economies there maintain good trade relations with us.

Primary concern is China as far as muscling us. They need to be brought in line and that can't be done unilaterally.

Countries of concern for labor are the exploited nations in Latin America and Southeast Asia. The reality is our companies are exploiting them. So that is a battle against our own businesses on behalf of labor.

I guess I"m done defending this move by Trump. It's reach the point where he's making no progress. He's just doing stuff to do it without any sensible goals or trade advantages. He's wielding a big club in an unfocused manner that isn't going to accomplish much if he doesn't make progress quickly and stop screwing around with trade deals that weren't a problem like the one with Canada and Europe.

[RiverDog]

FYI - The financial news outlets have already debunked Harley Davidson's claim that they are moving manufacturing overseas because of the Tarrifs. Again, a bad example to hold up and a bit quick to use what the left news is feeding you.

So Harley Davidson is spreading fake news? You're a riot!

Here's an article I just plucked off my news feed about the affect on the auto industry if Trump goes through with is proposed tariffs:

The Alliance of Automobile Manufacturers, a trade group representing domestic and foreign automakers with plants in the U.S., predicts the average price of a new vehicle will increase $5,800 if the president imposes a 25 percent tariff on imported models. That would amount to a $45 billion tax on the auto industry according to the trade group.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/markets ... spartanntp


Do you realize how many potential customers a price increase like that will take out of the new car market? It will slow sales and cause manufacturers to cut back on production, resulting in more layoffs.

[RiverDog]

I guess I"m done defending this move by Trump. It's reach the point where he's making no progress. He's just doing stuff to do it without any sensible goals or trade advantages. He's wielding a big club in an unfocused manner that isn't going to accomplish much if he doesn't make progress quickly and stop screwing around with trade deals that weren't a problem like the one with Canada and Europe.

That's part of the rationale that posters like North Hawk and myself have been arguing, ie that if China is the real enemy, the most effective way is through our G7 alliance. But Trump blew that up to smithereens.

The statement of yours that I underlined is an example of the major reason why I don't like Trump. He has no clear, well thought out strategy, whether it be this current trade war or his immigration policy. He makes things up on the fly. His foreign policy, his personnel decisions, everything he does is affected by his temperamental personality. If something pisses him off, he responds emotionally like some butt hurt teenager, and that's not a good way to run a railroad no matter what business you're in. This man has no self discipline, cannot get over even the simplest of slights and takes everything personally. He cannot separate the emotional side of his mind from his logical side. I wouldn't want him running a shift in my former line of business let alone being the most powerful man in the world.

Now Trump is reacting to H-D's moving some of its production overseas by threatening them with a "big tax". Now how in the hell is that going to help matters, by either driving them out of the country or causing them to go out of business? I get the feeling that this is more about Trump's ego than it is about creating an effective trade policy.

http://time.com/5322066/donald-trump-th ... n-twitter/

[idhawkman]

So Harley Davidson is spreading fake news? You're a riot!

Here's an article I just plucked off my news feed about the affect on the auto industry if Trump goes through with is proposed tariffs:

The Alliance of Automobile Manufacturers, a trade group representing domestic and foreign automakers with plants in the U.S., predicts the average price of a new vehicle will increase $5,800 if the president imposes a 25 percent tariff on imported models. That would amount to a $45 billion tax on the auto industry according to the trade group.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/markets ... spartanntp


Do you realize how many potential customers a price increase like that will take out of the new car market? It will slow sales and cause manufacturers to cut back on production, resulting in more layoffs.

I've highlighted the key word above.

When I was in Special Ops we had a saying, "a coward dies a million deaths where a brave man dies but one." The concept is valid here, too. Living in fear of what "Might" happen has your mind go through the pitfalls and woe as if it actually happened.

I see where Asea has started to waiver on his position which tells me we are about to make a breakthrough on this issue. Let it play out, it will all be okay.

Oh, and the impact on car buyers will be no more drastic than the "Cash for Clunkers" debacle that Obama instituted. We'll all be here tomorrow and the next day, etc.

[RiverDog]

I've highlighted the key word above.

When I was in Special Ops we had a saying, "a coward dies a million deaths where a brave man dies but one." The concept is valid here, too. Living in fear of what "Might" happen has your mind go through the pitfalls and woe as if it actually happened.

I see where Asea has started to waiver on his position which tells me we are about to make a breakthrough on this issue. Let it play out, it will all be okay.

Oh, and the impact on car buyers will be no more drastic than the "Cash for Clunkers" debacle that Obama instituted. We'll all be here tomorrow and the next day, etc.

I am not living in fear. I am retired, my house has been paid off for a decade, have an income equivalent to 80% of my working take home pay even while deferring my SS, kids are out of the nest, and I have enough money invested in relatively safe investments that I'm not worried about anyone destroying our nest egg. So at least as it applies to me, you can cease with your characterizations of a person that's hiding underneath their bed and wetting their pants. As you once scolded me for making what was intended to be a humorous remark, your comments in your first paragraph, and for that matter your 2nd paragraph as well, add nothing to the discussion except for encouraging the debate to turn personal.

And as far as your third paragraph goes, I disagee completely with the first sentence, agree with the 2nd.

[Aseahawkfan]

[I've highlighted the key word above.

When I was in Special Ops we had a saying, "a coward dies a million deaths where a brave man dies but one." The concept is valid here, too. Living in fear of what "Might" happen has your mind go through the pitfalls and woe as if it actually happened.

I see where Asea has started to waiver on his position which tells me we are about to make a breakthrough on this issue. Let it play out, it will all be okay.

Oh, and the impact on car buyers will be no more drastic than the "Cash for Clunkers" debacle that Obama instituted. We'll all be here tomorrow and the next day, etc.

I don't understand the Canada situation. They are one of the best trading partners we have. Their economy is fairly open. They have an abundance of natural resources and a small population which allows them to produce product for their giant neighbor cost effectively. They don't generally exploit their people economically, so Canadian wages are competitive. They used to provide us cheap drugs until we shored up protections for our drug companies. They sell us cheap oil. Their people don't bring crime here and are generally friendly. This BS about dairy and timber is just BS. Any trade problems with Canada should be on the bottom of the list and almost forgotten about with the focus on China, Russia, OPEC, India's tech job robbery, and SE Asia.

And as I stated earlier, Mexico and Latin America are sources of cheap labor our business people wanted and cheap agriculture our consumers want. It allows us to save on land use for farming and save money on food. If anything Mexico and the Latin American countries should be pissed off we're exploiting them, but they don't have enough economic power to do anything about it. So I don't get it. He wants to bring jobs back to poor farmers that don't want them? WTF? It doesn't make much sense. If he truly wants to reduce the immigrant problem, then providing financial growth to the Latin American nations is one path to do it while we move jobs to different sectors and focus on more profitable and technical sectors.

Trump had better show he understands trade and isn't just tossing around Tweets and trying to make himself seem important. That's just annoying. He isn't going to force free trade for the entire world. He should focus on improving trade with our most dangerous trading partners.

Europe is not dangerous to us either. That place is so bogged down by bureaucracy and socialist tendencies the majority of their nations are trying to regain some kind of economic growth in their stagnant economies. The EU is going to be stagnant a long time. Look at their Greece situation. They refuse to let that poorly run nation fall and go bankrupt. It will likely never be out of debt. Greece will be owned by foreign nations and paying Germany tribute in the form of interest for the lives of their people. We don't even want to trade to much with a Europe filled with fools that think socialism works.

[RiverDog]

I don't understand the Canada situation. They are one of the best trading partners we have. Their economy is fairly open. They have an abundance of natural resources and a small population which allows them to produce product for their giant neighbor cost effectively. They don't generally exploit their people economically, so Canadian wages are competitive. They used to provide us cheap drugs until we shored up protections for our drug companies. They sell us cheap oil. Their people don't bring crime here and are generally friendly. This BS about dairy and timber is just BS. Any trade problems with Canada should be on the bottom of the list and almost forgotten about with the focus on China, Russia, OPEC, India's tech job robbery, and SE Asia.

Actually not every industry in Canada is a level playing field with US producers. With respect to my former industry, agriculture, the Canadian government subsidizes many of their activities, land up there is butt cheap compared to down here, the exchange rate is generally favorable, and with respect to the PNW, their prime farmland is closer to 9 out of the 10 largest US markets than us. But that doesn't mean that I want to slap tariffs on them because the playing field isn't completely level. There are some things that make more sense to produce elsewhere and import to us, and if they can do a better job of producing it, then more power to them.

When I was a kid growing up in the 50's and 60's, we never got fresh vegetables year round like we do now. My home town, Walla Walla, had a very large canning and frozen vegetable industry with major producers like Birdseye and Green Giant as with no fresh veggies available save for a couple of summer months, people had to buy their vegetables either canned or frozen. Nowadays, particularily in the winter time, we import fresh vegetables from places as far south as Peru...and the quality is excellent and is reasonably priced. Today there is not a single cannery or frozen vegetable facility left in Walla Walla. The imports of fresh vegetables killed it. But the community adjusted and is still viable.

So rather than providing a magnet for uneducated and low skill workers from Mexico to come up here and harvest asparagus and other fresh crops, why not just grow it down there and help give some relief to our immigration crisis?

[Aseahawkfan]

Actually not every industry in Canada is a level playing field with US producers. With respect to my former industry, agriculture, the Canadian government subsidizes many of their activities, land up there is butt cheap compared to down here, the exchange rate is generally favorable, and with respect to the PNW, their prime farmland is closer to 9 out of the 10 largest US markets than us. But that doesn't mean that I want to slap tariffs on them because the playing field isn't completely level. There are some things that make more sense to produce elsewhere and import to us, and if they can do a better job of producing it, then more power to them.

When I was a kid growing up in the 50's and 60's, we never got fresh vegetables year round like we do now. My home town, Walla Walla, had a very large canning and frozen vegetable industry with major producers like Birdseye and Green Giant as with no fresh veggies available save for a couple of summer months, people had to buy their vegetables either canned or frozen. Nowadays, particularily in the winter time, we import fresh vegetables from places as far south as Peru...and the quality is excellent and is reasonably priced. Today there is not a single cannery or frozen vegetable facility left in Walla Walla. The imports of fresh vegetables killed it. But the community adjusted and is still viable.

So rather than providing a magnet for uneducated and low skill workers from Mexico to come up here and harvest asparagus and other fresh crops, why not just grow it down there and help give some relief to our immigration crisis?

Canada isn't a level playing field, but they are a positive trading partner. They buy plenty from us. We have a great relationship. When I see Trump going after Canada, it seems like he is jealous of a younger, better looking, more popular leader. Trade warring with Canada makes Trump look like he's some idiot in a South Park episode.

[RiverDog]

Canada isn't a level playing field, but they are a positive trading partner. They buy plenty from us. We have a great relationship. When I see Trump going after Canada, it seems like he is jealous of a younger, better looking, more popular leader. Trade warring with Canada makes Trump look like he's some idiot in a South Park episode.

I agree with you in regards to Canada. My point was that it isn't a level playing field, at least not in all areas.

Additionally, there's other considerations besides economics to having a good trade relationship, particularly with one that shares a 3,000 mile border with us. Canada has been one of our most trusted allies when our nation was most threatened, dating back to World War I and through current times. I could care less if we have a trade deficit with them.

We are about to embark on an initiative to re-negotiate with Canada the Columbia River Treaty, at our request, with the US objective being to reduce the $250-350 million dollars worth of electrical power, far more than what was anticipated when the treaty was signed, that is shipped off to them each year, so as to offset our rising utility bills. After Trump's treatment of them at the G7 meeting, I cannot imagine that they will be receptive to conceding ground in any area and would be content to let the current pact stay in place until it expires in 2024.

https://www.tri-cityherald.com/news/loc ... 96934.html

That's just one example of the fallout and unintended consequences of Trump's indiscriminate trade war.

[idhawkman]

Looks like the EU car makers are now pushing the EU to cut all tarrifs on US car imports to 0.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/germanys-largest-auto-makers-back-abolition-of-eu-u-s-car-import-tariffs-1529492027

[RiverDog]

Looks like the EU car makers are now pushing the EU to cut all tarrifs on US car imports to 0.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/germanys-largest-auto-makers-back-abolition-of-eu-u-s-car-import-tariffs-1529492027

No surprise there. They are in the same boat with Harley-Davidson, caught in the cross fire. There are no winners in a trade war.

[Aseahawkfan]

No surprise there. They are in the same boat with Harley-Davidson, caught in the cross fire. There are no winners in a trade war.

No winners if you no goal in mind and no path to achieve it. You can't win any kind of war swinging wildly at all your "enemies." Wars are won with direct, decisive, coordinated action with a goal, just like anything else.

[idhawkman]

No surprise there. They are in the same boat with Harley-Davidson, caught in the cross fire. There are no winners in a trade war.

No winners if you no goal in mind and no path to achieve it. You can't win any kind of war swinging wildly at all your "enemies." Wars are won with direct, decisive, coordinated action with a goal, just like anything else.

That's a part of war but don't forget surprise and deceit. When we invaded Normandy, the Germans thought Patton was going to come across the channel and split their forces. Otherwise, we may not have been so successful.

Shwartzkopf feigned frontal assault and yet the main strategy was a pincer movement. There's a lot more than just storming a beach head on. You can't always believe what you see in the open as it might be a facade that the enemy wants you to see and believe.

I don't think anyone knows what the ultimate strategy is and that's usually the best strategy of all.

[Aseahawkfan]

NThat's a part of war but don't forget surprise and deceit. When we invaded Normandy, the Germans thought Patton was going to come across the channel and split their forces. Otherwise, we may not have been so successful.

Shwartzkopf feigned frontal assault and yet the main strategy was a pincer movement. There's a lot more than just storming a beach head on. You can't always believe what you see in the open as it might be a facade that the enemy wants you to see and believe.

I don't think anyone knows what the ultimate strategy is and that's usually the best strategy of all.

I hope he has something in mind and his trade negotiators are hard at work, but right now things just seem like they're going nowhere. And Canada? Seriously, I feel like I'm in a South Park episode trying to paint Canada as some kind of enemy. It's like we punched one of our best allies in the world because the guy in office like to do it. He'd rather be friends with Russian than Canada? Really? What's next? He starts taking shots at Great Britain? He insults Russia less than he insults some of our closest allies. It's stupid.