The "weirdness" of it all.

[River Dog]

And what is wrong exactly with this statement? What if the programs are well-run? Meanwhile, the rich find ways to not pay taxes but reap lots of benefits from being in the US.

There is also the excessive immigration leading to larger labor pools that create excess labor supply to keep wages low. It's one of the reasons why I don't trust the Republicans. To me it feels like both parties are run by the same people playing us for fools. The Republican side rails against immigration in an easily dismissed manner due to racism. The left pretends they love immigrants for all the diversity they bring. But no one talks about immigration's impact on wages or how a labor supply is subject to the same supply-demand of any other product or service. Excess labor supply reduces wages which primarily benefits companies by creating a larger labor pool so does high tech H1B visa programs that allow big tech to access labor pools in other countries when recruiting and sponsor and bring them in on H1B visa programs which once again increases the supply of labor which puts downward pressure on wages.

What large labor pool? The labor market has cooled off some over the past 18 months, but there are still well over twice as many job openings as there are unemployed:

As of May 2024, the number of job openings is higher than its 2019 average—and not only because of population growth. When adjusted for the total demand for workers, there are still more job openings available as shown by the job openings rate.

The current unemployment level is also higher than its 2019 average but so is the unemployment rate. The net effects of relatively more job openings and relatively more unemployed persons essentially cancel each other out, causing the ratio to be the same as it was in 2019.

Second: Based on this measure, labor markets are still tight, much like they were in 2019—a year many economists consider to have been abnormally “hot.” In the 10 years prior, steady payroll growth had cut the unemployment rate to a historic low of 3.7% and job openings almost tripled. Together, these changes lifted the 2019 ratio much higher than the ratio immediately after the 2008 recession or at any other point in the history of the data series. While the unemployment level is now slightly higher than it was several years ago, the recent labor market hasn’t been weak by any historical comparison.

https://fredblog.stlouisfed.org/2024/07 ... ent%20rate.

And relative to inflation, wages aren't low. Since Feb. of 2023, once the effects of the pandemic had subsided, they have consistently risen faster than the rate of inflation. As of March of 2024, wages were up 4.7% while inflation was up 3.5%.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/135 ... lation-us/

Most industries still need workers. Immigrants not only perform work that native born Americans won't do, like picking apples and cutting asparagus, they tend to be younger, meaning that they have an overall positive effect on our social programs like SS and Medicare where the age demographics are so out of whack that it has led to a very low retiree to worker ratio.

While I don't like the Democrats' approach to border security, I certainly won't subscribe to Trump's insane proposal to use the National Guard hunt down and deport what he claims is 20 million illegal immigrants except those suspected of committing a felony. The dirty little secret is that illegal border crossings are way down. While I agree that we still have major problems at the southern border, it's being blown way out of proportion as it's a political hot button for so many people.

[Aseahawkfan]

What large labor pool? The labor market has cooled off some over the past 18 months, but there are still well over twice as many job openings as there are unemployed:

As of May 2024, the number of job openings is higher than its 2019 average—and not only because of population growth. When adjusted for the total demand for workers, there are still more job openings available as shown by the job openings rate.

The current unemployment level is also higher than its 2019 average but so is the unemployment rate. The net effects of relatively more job openings and relatively more unemployed persons essentially cancel each other out, causing the ratio to be the same as it was in 2019.

Second: Based on this measure, labor markets are still tight, much like they were in 2019—a year many economists consider to have been abnormally “hot.” In the 10 years prior, steady payroll growth had cut the unemployment rate to a historic low of 3.7% and job openings almost tripled. Together, these changes lifted the 2019 ratio much higher than the ratio immediately after the 2008 recession or at any other point in the history of the data series. While the unemployment level is now slightly higher than it was several years ago, the recent labor market hasn’t been weak by any historical comparison.

https://fredblog.stlouisfed.org/2024/07 ... ent%20rate.

And relative to inflation, wages aren't low. Since Feb. of 2023, once the effects of the pandemic had subsided, they have consistently risen faster than the rate of inflation. As of March of 2024, wages were up 4.7% while inflation was up 3.5%.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/135 ... lation-us/

Most industries still need workers. Immigrants not only perform work that native born Americans won't do, like picking apples and cutting asparagus, they tend to be younger, meaning that they have an overall positive effect on our social programs like SS and Medicare where the age demographics are so out of whack that it has led to a very low retiree to worker ratio.

While I don't like the Democrats' approach to border security, I certainly won't subscribe to Trump's insane proposal to use the National Guard hunt down and deport what he claims is 20 million illegal immigrants except those suspected of committing a felony. The dirty little secret is that illegal border crossings are way down. While I agree that we still have major problems at the southern border, it's being blown way out of proportion as it's a political hot button for so many people.

This is exactly what I'm talking about. You can easily find an article to try to support your opinion, but is it true and could you determine if it is true? Or do you trust the article?

You are looking at this point in time, but if the labor pool had not increased at a substantial rate, then real wages and the middle class would not have seen such a dramatic drop in buying power that they have experienced over the years. Labor supplies operate with the same supply-demand as a product or service with the wages being the cost of labor.

The overall trend for labor and real wages has been down. You keep touting again and again that Immigration has not been part of the problem, but it is and always will be as what immigration does is two fold economically: drive up labor supply which puts downward pressure on wages and drive up demand which puts upward pressure on prices. This is basic economics. It has reeked havoc on certain jobs wage levels like janitorial, construction, and other low skill jobs that paid a living wage at one point in time, but have failed to do so due to a massive influx of low cost labor combined with other labor supply pressures like outsourcing and automation.

This is why when you keep pushing this immigration is fine narrative you like because of your emotional position when discussing this topic, you can't engage in actual thinking based on your business degree which taught you about labor supply and demand. The majority of Americans are the same way. They base their thinking on emotional positions while posting articles based on a particular point in time or agenda versus what has occurred long-term and the causes. Immigration has been one of the causes of an increased labor supply leading to a drop in real wages.

Real wages are wages adjusted for inflation, or, equivalently, wages in terms of the amount of goods and services that can be bought. This term is used in contrast to nominal wages or unadjusted wages.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real_wages#:~:text=Real%20wages%20are%20wages%20adjusted,nominal%20wages%20or%20unadjusted%20wages.&text=Labor%20productivity%20vs%20compensation%20in%20the%20U.S.

Labor supply and demand and how it operates: http://www.econoclass.com/economicsoflabormarkets.html

All these are known factors, but when a person can find an article to support a position then the only way you can determine if this is true is to understand the underlying method by which they are generating the article. You often cannot trust the conclsion of agenda driven articles, when the maniopulation of the labor supply is an already known issue by big business to put downward pressure on wages and especially real wages, one of the biggest variable cost inputs in a business.

There is zero reason to believe that increasing immigration, especially low skill immigrants has not dramatically hammered the real wages of low skill jobs in various areas like construction, janitorial, and similar low level jobs. It absolutely has. It's been intended to do so.

Yet you do not hear this discussed by Democrats or Republicans in this manner. The Republicans rely on fear towards immigrants which is irresponsible and the Democrats try to be the friendly face of immigration which doesn't in anyway discuss the economics of immigration, especially when combined with the other ways business has manipulated the labor supply in their favor such as outsourcing and automation combined with low skill immigration and high skill immigration with the H1B visa program to dramatically expand the labor pool putting downward pressure on real wages and the buying power of the middle class.

Does this have the same effect on every industry? No, it does not. As extremely high skill positions like doctor or engineer will still experience a shortage as those capable of doing the job well are still in short supply, but does it have a dramatic effect on low to medium skill labor, hell yeah it does.

This should be tracked more carefully than it is and adjusted in the same way there are moves to protect industry in America like the current moves by the government to protect the EV industry and the the steel industry from the extremely low cost labor offered in places like China, which also severely impact the labor supply in America as well as creating security concerns for national manufacturing of key goods like materials, medicine, and the like.

I'm not even sure why I'm doing this. Most Americans are not even capable of a higher end discussion of economics and its impact on them. They don't understand it. It's why they respond to politicians who speak to them emotionally and not intellectually, even while both parties generally push polices that benefit business in slightly different ways. The Democrats have a socialist arm, but it's not very strong or well supported. Politicians like AOC are mostly trotted out to obtain her voting bloc, while never really intending on pushing much of her agenda, which is likely wise.

Riverdog, this is a moment in time where immigration is in a favorable position. Long-term it has been used along with other labor supply pressures to reduce wages, especially real wages, in a lot of industries. It's been irresponsibly managed by both parties to the detriment of the middle and working class and has benefitted business to a much higher degree than middle and working class workers and consumers considering the main reason for low prices is not immigration, but outsourcing or manufacturing outside the country in low labor cost nations while bringing in immigrants to put downward pressure on service jobs in America which is why construction and janitorial jobs have been hit so hard.

There is a reason you have worked around immigrants for so long in your industry. They are cheaper than American workers and benefit agricultural production greatly by keeping the labor supply high and the labor cost low.

This isn't up for debate. it is how labor markets operate with supply and demand. Immigration has been far more beneficial to business than middle and working class folks.

The question is one of: does the demand spike from immigration offset the increase in labor supply and demand? Various people have tried to answer this question, but it really depends on the industry.

Suffice it to say, both parties like the immigration as an issue to debate on an emotional level than an issue to discuss on an economic level. Democrats, especially union Democrats, who are interested in bolstering the middle and working class real wages should be far more concerned with immigration combined with outsourcing and automation than Republicans by a good measure because this trifecta is the method that big business has used to put massive downward pressure on real wages in America selling Americans the benefits outweigh the costs even why their standard of living is measurably going down along with their purchasing power as their real wages get the trifecta hammer of unmoderated immigration, outsourcing to low labor cost nations, and automation. Pretty potent combination to hammer wages.

At least the Democrats and Republicans are taking some measures to limit the impact of outsourcing, but why are they doing that? Because it's impacting the wealthy. Elon Musk can't compete selling EVs in America against the Chinese. Neither can a lot of chip manufacturers. Google and Facebook can't sell social media in the Chinese Market, so they lobby America to ensure the Chinese cannot sell here with Tiktok if we cannot sell there. Of course, Apple doesn't want a low priced Chinese competitor like Huawei biting into their Apple sales even while they manufacture in China. When the wealthy want their markets protected, they get it done.

The middle and working class want their wages protected, neither party is going to help them much.

And most Americans have no idea this is even occurring with both their political parties. It's pretty sad honestly. I'm not sure how you combat it. I can list this information and share it with people since I see it daily in the business news and studying businesses and how they operate, but it doesn't change voting patterns or get middle and working class voters to take more action on their own behalf in an intelligent way. I tend to think as long as the wealthy and powerful manage the economy well enough not allow a large enough number of poor to cause a Communist style revolution, I guess they've done enough to maintain their wealth while not upsetting the middle and working class too much. These two parties can hand the presidency back and forth while pretending they're at odds while both support big business dominance. Not much else I can do I guess. Keep investing and benefit from my knowledge.

No one at least on here can say I didn't try to tell you. Neither of these parties are your friends. I hope the middle and working class get some real champions on their behalf to get some of the economics moving in their direction.

[River Dog]

I fully understand that neither of the two political parties are my 'friend'. That's a discussion you need to be having with other posters, not me.
 
I don't see a problem at all with agriculture and ag related businesses such as the one I worked in hiring cheap labor provided by immigrants, and yes, it does apply downward pressure on wages. But that's not necessarily a bad thing. It keeps inflation under control. So long as they're not being exploited, I don't see a problem at all with the current status quo. Even illegal immigrants, for the most part, are contributing to the health of the economy.

I also don't see a problem with our trade relationship with China. We'd be cutting off our nose to spite our face if we did what Trump wants to do and place tariffs on their products or reduce outsourcing by American companies. It would result in higher prices and more inflation, which is my #1 concern. Having a healthy trade relationship with them reduces the chance of a war breaking out.

My point is that the typical American worker is not hurting. His wages are going up faster than the rate of inflation. There are still way more job openings than there are unemployed. Immigrants are for the most part taking entry level positions. If you're a healthy, functioning adult and you can't get a job above minimum wage in this economy, then you have something else wrong with you. Wage protection is unnecessary and counterproductive. One of the problems with the runaway inflation of the late 70's and early 80's was COLA clauses in union contracts that 'protected' wages. That's been my argument against these increases in the minimum wage.

Except as it relates to criminal activity and our ability to thoroughly vet newcomers, this so-called border crisis is a red herring driven by either a gross misunderstanding of the issue or, in some cases, pure racial hatred.

[MackStrongIsMyHero]

Except as it relates to criminal activity and our ability to thoroughly vet newcomers, this so-called border crisis is a red herring driven by either a gross misunderstanding of the issue or, in some cases, pure racial hatred.

You need to tell that to the cities and towns on the border that have deal with a large influx of illegal migrants. You are correct in stating the economic benefits of migrant labor, but I'm not hearing the economic draw backs. Illegal immigrants rely on emergency rooms as their medical safety net. They are much less likely to have auto insurance. Their children (born here, that is) allow them to qualify for the child tax credit and WIC. Their children also present a greater challenge in classrooms in that many do not speak English (my sister-in-law just started teaching where half her class is Hispanic and do not speak English at all).

I'm not staunchly against them coming, namely because of the jobs they will do that our citizens won't, but this is what happens when you allow the world's people of lesser means and ability. Yes, they work hard, but I'm talking about low-ceiling on their individual economic potential. There's a cost associated with it, and it's hard to say if it's a net positive.

[River Dog]

Except as it relates to criminal activity and our ability to thoroughly vet newcomers, this so-called border crisis is a red herring driven by either a gross misunderstanding of the issue or, in some cases, pure racial hatred.

You need to tell that to the cities and towns on the border that have deal with a large influx of illegal migrants.

This "large influx" is at a 3-year low:

Illegal crossings along the U.S. southern border fell to a 3-year low in June following President Biden's drastic move to curtail asylum and continued efforts by Mexico to stop migrants heading north, according to preliminary Customs and Border Protection data obtained by CBS News.

Border Patrol processed approximately 84,000 migrants who crossed the U.S.-Mexico border without authorization in June (of 2024)

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/border-cro ... june-2024/

You are correct in stating the economic benefits of migrant labor, but I'm not hearing the economic draw backs. Illegal immigrants rely on emergency rooms as their medical safety net. They are much less likely to have auto insurance. Their children (born here, that is) allow them to qualify for the child tax credit and WIC. Their children also present a greater challenge in classrooms in that many do not speak English (my sister-in-law just started teaching where half her class is Hispanic and do not speak English at all).

I'm not staunchly against them coming, namely because of the jobs they will do that our citizens won't, but this is what happens when you allow the world's people of lesser means and ability. Yes, they work hard, but I'm talking about low-ceiling on their individual economic potential. There's a cost associated with it, and it's hard to say if it's a net positive.

Yes, there are drawbacks, and I'll include that they are more likely to get arrested for a DUI as many aren't familiar with our laws and customs, and that includes laws requiring them to purchase auto insurance. But the net effect is still positive.

As far as their economic potential goes, one of the changes I think that they should make is revise the applications for entry. The current citizenship test is a joke, asks them to name their congressman, who the Governor is, stuff that the majority of native-born Americans couldn't correctly answer. They need to approve applications based on their educational level, their ability to communicate in English, a formal education, and their job skills. Place some sort of premium on those folks. There are tons of jobs out there with current shortages, like truck drivers, electricians, construction work, and so on, that don't require a huge economic potential. It's not just about picking apples and cutting asparagus.

I'm not completely dismissing the problem. What I'm saying is that it is not near the problem people think it is.

[MackStrongIsMyHero]

This "large influx" is at a 3-year low:

That's a 3 year low for the month of June, and that's just Border Patrol. The Office of Field operations had a about 47,000, also low for them. Between both agencies, they are at about 1.1 million crossings on the year (through July 24) with about 8 million from 2021 to present. That it's dropping is good news, but it's bit like closing the stable doors after the horse got out. That's a lot of people to deal with.

https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sout ... encounters

They need to approve applications based on their educational level, their ability to communicate in English, a formal education, and their job skills. Place some sort of premium on those folks. There are tons of jobs out there with current shortages, like truck drivers, electricians, construction work, and so on, that don't require a huge economic potential. It's not just about picking apples and cutting asparagus.

Foreign nationals that have what you're mentioning tend to go through proper immigration channels. Illegals, hard workers as most of them are, are not the best and brightest. Proper assimilation would require intensive education and training, which I think would be great but expensive, and, therefore, likely never to happen.

[River Dog]

This "large influx" is at a 3-year low:

That's a 3 year low for the month of June, and that's just Border Patrol. The Office of Field operations had a about 47,000, also low for them. Between both agencies, they are at about 1.1 million crossings on the year (through July 24) with about 8 million from 2021 to present. That it's dropping is good news, but it's bit like closing the stable doors after the horse got out. That's a lot of people to deal with.

Did you read the article? It's the lowest monthly total for the past 3 years, not just for the month of June. From the article:

Illegal crossings along the U.S. southern border fell to a 3-year low in June following President Biden's drastic move to curtail asylum and continued efforts by Mexico to stop migrants heading north, according to preliminary Customs and Border Protection data obtained by CBS News.

And while it may not represent all apprehensions, it's still a sampling that represents an undeniable trend. It's no longer at a level where it can be considered a 'crisis.' It's an overblown issue.

As far as closing the barn door after the horses got out, yes, we did have a very serious problem. A lot of it was caused by pent up demand following the pandemic and the psychological effect Trump's leaving office had on wanna be immigrants. Once the Wicked Witch of the West was dead, people felt better about coming to America.

Foreign nationals that have what you're mentioning tend to go through proper immigration channels. Illegals, hard workers as most of them are, are not the best and brightest. Proper assimilation would require intensive education and training, which I think would be great but expensive, and, therefore, likely never to happen.

I'm not saying that we should de-criminalize illegal border crossings or abolish ICE as many liberal Democrats advocate. And with all the tools available nowadays, with AI able to aid in translation, I don't think it would be nearly as difficult for an immigrant that has a minimal education to get a middle-class job well above minimum wage as you might think. It costs from $2-8k to get a CDL, and the total cost for tuition to attend a trade school is around $5-$30k, and that's without an employer subsidy of which many offer. If there's a will, there's a way.

The focus on immigration enforcement needs to be on those with criminal intent, the drug runners, human traffickers, those types of folks. I'm not worried about immigrants that are not "the best and brightest." So long as they're law abiding and willing to work, there's a place for them in our society. My experience is that I'd much rather have a crew of those types of folks than I would a typical group of native-born Americans that are indentured with an entitlement attitude.

[MackStrongIsMyHero]

Did you read the article? It's the lowest monthly total for the past 3 years, not just for the month of June. From the article:

Yes, I did read it. I'm just emphasizing that it was the lowest monthly total in 3 years and just the reported number from Border Patrol. It excluded the additional number from the Office of Field Operations. There has still been 1.1 million to date, which the article fails to mention; it's not going to mean much if it doesn't continue to trend downward. It's like "See! It's coming down!" Okay, but it's taken three years and 8 million crossings for that to come down to that previous low. That's a large influx. While it doesn't affect my life or yours very much, the areas of the country with high concentrations of illegal immigrants feel it a whole lot more which is where my argument started.

I'm not saying that we should de-criminalize illegal border crossings or abolish ICE as many liberal Democrats advocate. And with all the tools available nowadays, with AI able to aid in translation, I don't think it would be nearly as difficult for an immigrant that has a minimal education to get a middle-class job well above minimum wage as you might think. It costs from $2-8k to get a CDL, and the total cost for tuition to attend a trade school is around $5-$30k, and that's without an employer subsidy of which many offer. If there's a will, there's a way.

And this won't be as easy you think, or it would be happening already. That's why I say it would be an intensive effort. Getting these people to learn English, go get proper job training, and support their children in learning English so they can be better participants in their local educations system while eventually lessening their dependence on social systems is no small affair. Otherwise, their positive economic impact will always be offset by the cost they impose on the system regardless of how much they end up paying into to social security.

The focus on immigration enforcement needs to be on those with criminal intent, the drug runners, human traffickers, those types of folks. I'm not worried about immigrants that are not "the best and brightest." So long as they're law abiding and willing to work, there's a place for them in our society. My experience is that I'd much rather have a crew of those types of folks than I would a typical group of native-born Americans that are indentured with an entitlement attitude.

They do plenty of that, I'm sure. I'm not talking about requiring people of superior intellect and ability, but these are uneducated masses. One way or the other, there's substantial cost associated with bringing them into our country.

[River Dog]

Yes, I did read it. I'm just emphasizing that it was the lowest monthly total in 3 years and just the reported number from Border Patrol. It excluded the additional number from the Office of Field Operations. There has still been 1.1 million to date, which the article fails to mention; it's not going to mean much if it doesn't continue to trend downward. It's like "See! It's coming down!" Okay, but it's taken three years and 8 million crossings for that to come down to that previous low. That's a large influx. While it doesn't affect my life or yours very much, the areas of the country with high concentrations of illegal immigrants feel it a whole lot more which is where my argument started.

OK, fair enough. You made it sound like that you thought that it was just the lowest they've had in June rather than the past 3 years. Thanks for acknowledging that fact.

And this (assimilating emigrants into our society) won't be as easy you think, or it would be happening already. That's why I say it would be an intensive effort. Getting these people to learn English, go get proper job training, and support their children in learning English so they can be better participants in their local educations system while eventually lessening their dependence on social systems is no small affair. Otherwise, their positive economic impact will always be offset by the cost they impose on the system regardless of how much they end up paying into to social security.

I used to be of the mindset that all immigrants should and must learn to speak English for practical matters, that they should know how to be good citizens, like reporting an accident, helping someone in need, obeying a police officer's instructions. I still feel that it should be heavily emphasized, but times have changed. 911 operators have access to software that can translate a conversation in any language instantly. Thanks to Google Translate, I was able to get along just fine not knowing the native language or the locals mine when traveling to Thailand and Japan over the past two years. It's still desirable that everyone learn English as it enhances their job prospects and makes their transition to their new country easier, but it's not necessary, either for them or for us.

And BTW, English is not the official language of the US. We have no official language. The Supreme Court ruled decades ago that English-only laws are unconstitutional, so any rule or guidance of the type you're talking about is likely illegal. When I was at work, we were instructed to make sure that job descriptions stated that it required the ability to communicate, not the ability to speak English. Employers cannot force their employees to speak a certain language unless there is a job-related reason. I forced my lab techs to speak in English anytime they were on the radio as it was an open channel with 8-10 others listening in, and I wanted to monitor it in case there was some misinformation I might want to correct. But what language they spoke over the phone or amongst each other was their own business. To require otherwise would be in violation of the 1st Amendment.

They do plenty of that (focus on criminals), I'm sure. I'm not talking about requiring people of superior intellect and ability, but these are uneducated masses. One way or the other, there's substantial cost associated with bringing them into our country.

Like I said, I care a lot more about what's in their hearts and souls than their uneducated heads. And yes, there is a cost to bringing them into the country. Always has been, always will be. But the benefit outweighs the cost IMO.

[I-5]

Just to add to this thougtful conversation (I wish social media commenters were this rational), I saw a video of an american farm owner talking about the costs of bringing in migrant workers via the H1B visa, and that they have to pay sizable penalty to do this. He said they'd prefer local labour and not pay the penalty, but there aren't any takers for the work he needs. It's been that way probably been that since the end of the Great Depression (I read Steinbeck's Grapes of Wrath about that time). If migrant workers stop doing their work in the US and they have to hire locals willing to do the work, no doubt the high food prices we see will go higher. Not to mention the people who clean hotel rooms, work in many restaurant kitchens, etc the list goes on.

[River Dog]

Just to add to this thougtful conversation (I wish social media commenters were this rational), I saw a video of an american farm owner talking about the costs of bringing in migrant workers via the H1B visa, and that they have to pay sizable penalty to do this. He said they'd prefer local labour and not pay the penalty, but there aren't any takers for the work he needs. It's been that way probably been that since the end of the Great Depression (I read Steinbeck's Grapes of Wrath about that time). If migrant workers stop doing their work in the US and they have to hire locals willing to do the work, no doubt the high food prices we see will go higher. Not to mention the people who clean hotel rooms, work in many restaurant kitchens, etc the list goes on.

Speaking for Mack, thanks for the compliment. Despite our differences, we're all friends.

Immigrant labor goes back well before the Great Depression. The construction of the first transcontinental railroad in the 1860's was done primarily by immigrants, Irish immigrants on the eastern section and Chinese workers on the western side. The Irish were fleeing their country due to a severe economic downturn brought on by the Irish potato famine. The Central Pacific railroad actually recruited Chinese to come work on their project. Immigrants from Jamacia were used in the construction of the Panama Canal and given every s*** job imaginable.

There just aren't local, American born citizens willing to do the type of work immigrants do. There are too many other much less demanding and better paying jobs in today's economy. Agriculture and ag related businesses, many of them based in solidly red states, would suffer the most. Seniors that otherwise need to be in assisted living but want to live in their homes wouldn't be able to afford what it would cost to keep up their lawns, clean their house, and hire in home care. Construction costs would soar. That's why Trump's proposal to use the National Guard to roust and deport what he claims is 20 million illegals is so insane. It's a cutting off your nose to spite your face proposition if I've ever seen one.

For any of us that might be an America first isolationist, here's something to think about: If we were to deport every illegal and place severe restrictions on immigration, there is no way that this country would be able to feed itself without importing large quantities of food from Mexico and South America, making us dependent on those countries. And here's another fun fact: One out of every five medical doctors in the United States are foreign born and foreign educated, which includes my PCP. The same ratio holds true for health care givers in general. I can assure you that not all of those folks speak acceptable English.

[MackStrongIsMyHero]

Not advocating for stopping it; not realistic to do it unless all of those jobs could be filled without them. I'm advocating for a better system to bring them into our society. We don't have it, and I can't ignore that there are segments of our population (i.e. communities with high concentrations of illegal immigrants) that have to deal with the brunt of the costs associated with them. There's no sacrifice too great for someone else to make comes to mind.

[River Dog]

Not advocating for stopping it; not realistic to do it unless all of those jobs could be filled without them. I'm advocating for a better system to bring them into our society. We don't have it, and I can't ignore that there are segments of our population (i.e. communities with high concentrations of illegal immigrants) that have to deal with the brunt of the costs associated with them. There's no sacrifice too great for someone else to make comes to mind.

I agree that there has to be a better way to integrate immigrants into our society, particularly as it applies to safety. As I mentioned earlier, one of the problems we have around here is that the workers in the orchards and vineyards will get off work, buy a case of beer, get drunk, then drive out onto the highways. There have been several fatal accidents as a result. Some of it is a universal boys will be boys thing, but a lot of it has to do with their unfamiliarity with our laws and customs. That's one of the things that I feel can be addressed in a more common-sense resident/citizenship indoctrination and testing process. Put the fear of God in them by threatening them with immediate and permanent deportation if they're caught drinking and driving. But I don't think it reasonable or legal for us to insist that they learn English.

As far as residents of border cities goes, yes, I agree that the federal government should be assisting them in dealing with the negatives associated with immigration, that it's not fair for them to be on the front lines while the rest of us are out on the country club golf course. But my sympathy only goes so far. A lot of areas of the country have drawbacks based on their geography which may make it an undesirable place to live in. I've heard that it gets so cold in Minnesota that it'll freeze the balls off a brass monkey.

[Aseahawkfan]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5MsznJKTYQc&t=895s

I had to post this because it is so nuts. The future of AI. It's pretty long and you can probably find clips, but if you have any knowledge of D&D or role-playing games this is crazy hilarious.

Some dude with too much time on his hands made a D&D game with Joe Rogan as DM and Donald Trump, Elon Musk, Samuel L. Jackson, and Gordon Ramsay as players. It uses AI to do an excellent simulation of their voices and whoever made it really makes their interactions believable and hilarious.

[Aseahawkfan]

Just to add to this thougtful conversation (I wish social media commenters were this rational), I saw a video of an american farm owner talking about the costs of bringing in migrant workers via the H1B visa, and that they have to pay sizable penalty to do this. He said they'd prefer local labour and not pay the penalty, but there aren't any takers for the work he needs. It's been that way probably been that since the end of the Great Depression (I read Steinbeck's Grapes of Wrath about that time). If migrant workers stop doing their work in the US and they have to hire locals willing to do the work, no doubt the high food prices we see will go higher. Not to mention the people who clean hotel rooms, work in many restaurant kitchens, etc the list goes on.

Not many Americans want to do seasonable farm work any longer. My grandfather worked as a dairy farmer his whole life. He didn't own the farm, but he made a living doing which often included a house he did not own as part of the job since he had to be up the crack of dawn six and sometimes seven days a week to milk the cows as they don't wait. I know harvest time immigrant labor comes in handy.

From what I've seen in recent years immigration has massively hammered construction and janitorial jobs. My friend's day used to work as a hospital janitor for a good living wage. The hospital to cut costs started to hire out to janitorial contract services who lower costs using cheap immigrant labor to such a level that the hospital had to take advantage of it. It kept on going as janitorial has become more of an entry level immigrant job than a living wage job. You're starting to see some of the same in construction as well where non-union contractors using immigrant labor underbid union contractors because the union contractors can't compete with the labor cost.

Construction jobs were definitely desirable blue collar jobs for Americans for many, many years. I was even surprised that even electrician jobs were getting somewhat hammered by immigrant labor as some of the immigrants coming over are jack of all trade workers. Mexican and Latin immigrants definitely do not mind putting in a days work and some are very knowledgeable on trade skills like electrician and plumber.

But these are not really jobs you can say Americans didn't want. Electrician, plumber, and construction were all good paying blue collar jobs, usually union, that have gotten hit fairly hard by the big influx of low to medium skill immigrant labor.

It eventually can balance out if you get some control over it as they did after waves of Italian and Irish and Polish and German immigrants came over as those eventually slowed down once their countries were doing better. Problem with Latin America is they don't seem to be reaching the point where they're doing well enough the people stop coming. Not sure if it is entrenched corruption, lack of funds to build a quality industrial business base, the drug cartels and crime, or some combination of many things. It has to reach a point where the Central and Latin American nations are doing well enough that a more natural level of immigration occurs rather than a full on rush to get out of their countries to make money here. Hopefully over time it gets better and we have better trade partners with more mutually beneficial immigration.

I really think America needs to heavily deal with its drug problems because we are funding the drug cartels in Central and South America that cause a lot of the crime and instability that leads to this level of unmoderated immigration. I know when I used to go to Juarez, you could enjoy yourself. Get some good tamales. My mom could get her hair done. I could get a puppet. It was still poor, but not a brutal, cartel war zone where anyone trying to make things better gets murdered. We gotta do something on this side about that. It's not gonna get better over there unless the cartels and gangs fueled by American drug consumption gets the hammer. Which is why some form of decriminalization is likely necessary to get control of this problem. Not a full on Democrat recommended give the users the drug crap, but some other system to get control of this. We don't have a smart drug enforcement policy right now and it is hurting Latin America and America both. It needs to be dealt with intelligently.

Once we get that done, then we can see if greater stability and reduction in the power of crime cartels leads to more stability in that region which leads to nations that can build businesses and then reduced immigration and better trading relationships.

[River Dog]

Construction jobs were definitely desirable blue collar jobs for Americans for many, many years. I was even surprised that even electrician jobs were getting somewhat hammered by immigrant labor as some of the immigrants coming over are jack of all trade workers. Mexican and Latin immigrants definitely do not mind putting in a days work and some are very knowledgeable on trade skills like electrician and plumber.

But these are not really jobs you can say Americans didn't want. Electrician, plumber, and construction were all good paying blue collar jobs, usually union, that have gotten hit fairly hard by the big influx of low to medium skill immigrant labor.

Yes, I can say that native born Americans don't want those jobs. There is a shortage of blue-collar type work in virtually all categories, especially electricians, a field where the demand is rising. Millennials and Gen Z don't want to get their hands dirty:

According to the Pew Research Center, early retirement of electricians increased in 2020 and 2021, spurred in part by COVID-19. While that trend is slowly passing, with the Bureau of Labor Statistics predicting more workers in 2030 than in 2020, the fact remains that by 2030, all baby boomers will reach age 65 or beyond, draining the pool of qualified electricians.

Compounding this exodus is the lack of interest in skilled labor among the millennial and Gen Z populations. More than 75% of high school and college students want to work in technology, and are more likely to attend college than pursue a skilled labor job. The desire for jobs with flexible hours and potential for remote work often steers them away from trade jobs.

The construction industry will need to attract an estimated 501,000 additional workers on top of the normal pace of hiring in 2024 to meet the demand for labor, according to a proprietary model developed by Associated Builders and Contractors. In 2025, the industry will need to bring in nearly 454,000 new workers on top of normal hiring to meet industry demand, and that’s presuming that construction spending growth slows significantly next year.

“ABC estimates that the US construction industry needs to attract about a half million new workers in 2024 to balance supply and demand,” said Michael Bellaman, ABC President and CEO. “Not addressing the shortage through an all-of-the-above approach to workforce development will slow improvements to our shared built environment, worker productivity, living standards and the places where we heal, learn, play, work and gather.”

Addressing the Shortage

“While construction employment is growing, it is not growing fast enough to meet the demand to complete the work on the books for 2024,” said Bellaman. “To address this shortage and grow the construction talent pool, ABC has a network of more than 800 apprenticeship, craft, health and safety and management education programs—including more than 450 government-registered apprenticeship programs across 20 different occupations. ABC chapters also have 323 entry point programs in place nationally to welcome all to begin a career in construction. To address workforce demand that drives the US economy, Congress must also look toward much-needed reforms to our legal immigration system and provide high-demand industries, like construction, with access to new or expanded visa programs.”

https://www.contractormag.com/construct ... -a-million

Electricians and construction workers are just two blue collar occupations with worker shortages. In general, it exists everywhere, including truck drivers, plumbers, carpenters, and craftsmen, all good paying jobs that don't require a huge amount of schooling, training, or an exquisite mastery of the English language. I could find more articles describing the blue-collar labor shortage and the younger generations not wanting to do that kind of work, but unless someone wants to deny this fact, I don't see the need.

[I-5]

Again, I agree with all these points. I wish more Americans understood this reality of seasonal work that no one but migrants are willing and able to do instead of believing Trump's rhetoric that 'they're stealing jobs'. South Park really nailed with the 'they took our jobs' parody. And I agree we need a better system to regulate and keep it safe.

[Aseahawkfan]

Yes, I can say that native born Americans don't want those jobs. There is a shortage of blue-collar type work in virtually all categories, especially electricians, a field where the demand is rising. Millennials and Gen Z don't want to get their hands dirty:

According to the Pew Research Center, early retirement of electricians increased in 2020 and 2021, spurred in part by COVID-19. While that trend is slowly passing, with the Bureau of Labor Statistics predicting more workers in 2030 than in 2020, the fact remains that by 2030, all baby boomers will reach age 65 or beyond, draining the pool of qualified electricians.

Compounding this exodus is the lack of interest in skilled labor among the millennial and Gen Z populations. More than 75% of high school and college students want to work in technology, and are more likely to attend college than pursue a skilled labor job. The desire for jobs with flexible hours and potential for remote work often steers them away from trade jobs.

The construction industry will need to attract an estimated 501,000 additional workers on top of the normal pace of hiring in 2024 to meet the demand for labor, according to a proprietary model developed by Associated Builders and Contractors. In 2025, the industry will need to bring in nearly 454,000 new workers on top of normal hiring to meet industry demand, and that’s presuming that construction spending growth slows significantly next year.

“ABC estimates that the US construction industry needs to attract about a half million new workers in 2024 to balance supply and demand,” said Michael Bellaman, ABC President and CEO. “Not addressing the shortage through an all-of-the-above approach to workforce development will slow improvements to our shared built environment, worker productivity, living standards and the places where we heal, learn, play, work and gather.”

Addressing the Shortage

“While construction employment is growing, it is not growing fast enough to meet the demand to complete the work on the books for 2024,” said Bellaman. “To address this shortage and grow the construction talent pool, ABC has a network of more than 800 apprenticeship, craft, health and safety and management education programs—including more than 450 government-registered apprenticeship programs across 20 different occupations. ABC chapters also have 323 entry point programs in place nationally to welcome all to begin a career in construction. To address workforce demand that drives the US economy, Congress must also look toward much-needed reforms to our legal immigration system and provide high-demand industries, like construction, with access to new or expanded visa programs.”

https://www.contractormag.com/construct ... -a-million

Electricians and construction workers are just two blue collar occupations with worker shortages. In general, it exists everywhere, including truck drivers, plumbers, carpenters, and craftsmen, all good paying jobs that don't require a huge amount of schooling, training, or an exquisite mastery of the English language. I could find more articles describing the blue-collar labor shortage and the younger generations not wanting to do that kind of work, but unless someone wants to deny this fact, I don't see the need.

Once again, you see 2020 and 2021 in the article as COVID hurt those industries badly.

So until post-COVID employment normalization occurs, we'll see what people want. This is a particularly unique period in history. You want it to be over, but it isn't over and likely will take quite a while to recover fully, as in even more years than you think.

I'm talking about erosion in those industries over decades and you keep bringing up recent times when we have a major supply and demand shock event in the form of a once in a 100 year pandemic which wreaked havoc with the labor force and economy which we are barely not getting some control of.

Electricians, plumbers, HVAC, and the like are still fairly high paying jobs. I think they'll attract a healthy mix as it goes on as the younger generations figure out everyone can't be a computer programmer.

[River Dog]

Once again, you see 2020 and 2021 in the article as COVID hurt those industries badly.

So until post-COVID employment normalization occurs, we'll see what people want. This is a particularly unique period in history. You want it to be over, but it isn't over and likely will take quite a while to recover fully, as in even more years than you think.

I'm talking about erosion in those industries over decades and you keep bringing up recent times when we have a major supply and demand shock event in the form of a once in a 100 year pandemic which wreaked havoc with the labor force and economy which we are barely not getting some control of.

Electricians, plumbers, HVAC, and the like are still fairly high paying jobs. I think they'll attract a healthy mix as it goes on as the younger generations figure out everyone can't be a computer programmer.

That's not just 2020 and 2021 numbers, my friend. The linked article is dated Jan. 31, 2024. The pandemic didn't cause the shortage. If it had, it would have recovered by now. It was a concern well before the pandemic:

For over a decade, rumblings of a shortage of electricians have persisted. Recent facts validate those concerns, especially in the face of electrification as homes and businesses across North America urgently need electrical upgrades and plan for the installation of newer energy transition technologies.

Back in 2016, one out of five electricians said their biggest concern for the next five years was experienced electricians retiring or leaving the industry while 70% said the industry was facing an electrician shortage, and in 2022, the shortage became even more apparent.

https://qmerit.com/blog/the-severe-elec ... -in-sight/


From an article dated July 27th, 2024:

Every year, nearly 10,000 electricians either retire or change careers, but only about 7,000 new ones enter the field. While the shortfall finds homeowners lamenting about how long it takes to find an electrician for wiring projects, entire industries — including construction, manufacturing, renewable energy, technology and utilities — are confronting project delays and increased labor costs.

And another from May 2024:

In 2024, an anticipated surge in demand for electricians to build federally funded EV infrastructure across America is cause for concern, with almost 80,000 openings projected each year over the next decade.

The first cause behind the electrician shortage is experienced electricians leaving the industry. While many of these retirements are part of the normal employment cycle, some are premature departures.

As a result of COVID-19, the construction industry lost approximately 430,000 jobs, and by mid-2023, it had recovered only 67% of them. Among the causes were the Great Resignation post-COVID-19, which caused many workers to examine their life priorities; the exodus of an entire generation as Baby Boomers looked to their retirement; and growing wages in other sectors such as transportation and warehousing.

The retirement trend will likely continue to be a drain on the workforce; Pew Research reported in 2023 that one in five American workers are 65 years of age or older. The inescapable fact is that electricians continue to leave the industry.

It's the same story in other industries. From an article dated Jan. 3, 2024:

The American Trucking Association (ATA) warns of a potential shortage of 160,000 drivers by 2030. The industry anticipates that this shortage will intensify in 2024. As the demand for goods rises and the aging workforce contemplates retirement, already contributing to increased driver pay.

https://novalines.com/blog/trucking-ind ... -insights/

And in the construction industry:

2024 Construction Workforce Shortage Tops Half a Million

In 2025, the industry will need to bring in nearly 454,000 new workers on top of normal hiring to meet industry demand.

The construction industry will need to attract an estimated 501,000 additional workers on top of the normal pace of hiring in 2024 to meet the demand for labor, according to a proprietary model developed by Associated Builders and Contractors. In 2025, the industry will need to bring in nearly 454,000 new workers on top of normal hiring to meet industry demand, and that’s presuming that construction spending growth slows significantly next year.

https://www.contractormag.com/construct ... -a-million

The article is dated Jan. 24th, 2024.

I'm not making this stuff up. The blue-collar work force is getting old, retiring, and not being backfilled by native born Millennials and GenX. There's plenty of good paying jobs out there for any functioning adult that wants to work. That's one of the reasons why I've become so insensitive to the homeless problem, because it's not an economic problem rather it's a social problem.

[Aseahawkfan]

That's not just 2020 and 2021 numbers, my friend. The linked article is dated Jan. 31, 2024. The pandemic didn't cause the shortage. If it had, it would have recovered by now. It was a concern well before the pandemic:

For over a decade, rumblings of a shortage of electricians have persisted. Recent facts validate those concerns, especially in the face of electrification as homes and businesses across North America urgently need electrical upgrades and plan for the installation of newer energy transition technologies.

Back in 2016, one out of five electricians said their biggest concern for the next five years was experienced electricians retiring or leaving the industry while 70% said the industry was facing an electrician shortage, and in 2022, the shortage became even more apparent.

https://qmerit.com/blog/the-severe-elec ... -in-sight/


From an article dated July 27th, 2024:

Every year, nearly 10,000 electricians either retire or change careers, but only about 7,000 new ones enter the field. While the shortfall finds homeowners lamenting about how long it takes to find an electrician for wiring projects, entire industries — including construction, manufacturing, renewable energy, technology and utilities — are confronting project delays and increased labor costs.

And another from May 2024:

In 2024, an anticipated surge in demand for electricians to build federally funded EV infrastructure across America is cause for concern, with almost 80,000 openings projected each year over the next decade.

The first cause behind the electrician shortage is experienced electricians leaving the industry. While many of these retirements are part of the normal employment cycle, some are premature departures.

As a result of COVID-19, the construction industry lost approximately 430,000 jobs, and by mid-2023, it had recovered only 67% of them. Among the causes were the Great Resignation post-COVID-19, which caused many workers to examine their life priorities; the exodus of an entire generation as Baby Boomers looked to their retirement; and growing wages in other sectors such as transportation and warehousing.

The retirement trend will likely continue to be a drain on the workforce; Pew Research reported in 2023 that one in five American workers are 65 years of age or older. The inescapable fact is that electricians continue to leave the industry.

It's the same story in other industries. From an article dated Jan. 3, 2024:

The American Trucking Association (ATA) warns of a potential shortage of 160,000 drivers by 2030. The industry anticipates that this shortage will intensify in 2024. As the demand for goods rises and the aging workforce contemplates retirement, already contributing to increased driver pay.

https://novalines.com/blog/trucking-ind ... -insights/

And in the construction industry:

2024 Construction Workforce Shortage Tops Half a Million

In 2025, the industry will need to bring in nearly 454,000 new workers on top of normal hiring to meet industry demand.

The construction industry will need to attract an estimated 501,000 additional workers on top of the normal pace of hiring in 2024 to meet the demand for labor, according to a proprietary model developed by Associated Builders and Contractors. In 2025, the industry will need to bring in nearly 454,000 new workers on top of normal hiring to meet industry demand, and that’s presuming that construction spending growth slows significantly next year.

https://www.contractormag.com/construct ... -a-million

The article is dated Jan. 24th, 2024.

I'm not making this stuff up. The blue-collar work force is getting old, retiring, and not being backfilled by native born Millennials and GenX. There's plenty of good paying jobs out there for any functioning adult that wants to work. That's one of the reasons why I've become so insensitive to the homeless problem, because it's not an economic problem rather it's a social problem.

I'm not saying you're making it up. I don't need the articles you post as proof of something I'm already aware of. I read and follow the business and economic news daily. I can't even begin to post the number of articles, podcasts, videos, and news sites I follow to keep me apprised of all the economic information I consume. I don't have time to vet each article for the method they used to obtain their conclusion. There was a massive supply and demand shock from COVID that has not been corrected as of 2024. It doesn't matter how many articles you link, It is not going to make things fixed from the labor supply shock that occurred during the COVID pandemic.

Home building has not recovered. Commercial real estate is in a terrible place. There was a massive change in the labor force due to early retirement during the COVID pandemic as companies chose to pay out early retirement packages or employees took early retirement to clear out while receiving favorable government support. This altered the labor force. This is on top of an elderly workforce retiring at normal rates. Then take into account interest rate manipulation to bring down inflation as well as the inflation itself which is just now moderating. All that has occurred from the pandemic is still being sorted out almost five years later and likely will still be getting sorted out five years from now.

Why do you think nominal wages are higher than they've been at any period in history and why you can get a fast food job for 16 to 18 an hour still? COVID made changes to the economy that haven't settled yet and likely represent a new normal or something close.

I will simply concede at this moment immigration is necessary to bolster the workforce due to the labor supply shock from COVID. It doesn't mean long-term immigration was good for the American worker, but short-term we need it. The labor force is in a very bad place right now.

This side discussion on immigration is more about the long-term methods that big business has used to undermine wages and labor in America which includes immigration as one of the methods on top of outsourcing and automation.

In my opinion, immigration should be set by real wage levels. Reductions in immigration should be done like other protective measures by government for industry to maintain wage levels and ensure that working people's wages and standard of living are not undercut by big business manipulating the labor pool in their favor.

Right now is one of the few times in recent memory where wages are very much in favor of middle and working class people and they should be negotiating higher wages while they have a favorable situation because it may not last long as business moves to reduce labor supply pressure long-term.

The point of the side discussion is in my opinion Republicans pretend to be angry about immigration while heavily using it to put downward pressure on wages and Democrats pretend it is all roses and positive diversity while failing to discuss the effect heavy immigration has had on wages in low skill labor jobs which were at one time desirable ladder jobs with a living wage to support a family for Americans. They sell this now as undesirable jobs, when at one point in time these jobs were desirable and only due to wage erosion have these jobs become less desirable as they no longer provide a living wage on top of being unpleasant and low status. So they have been relegated like farm labor to immigrants with the primary benefit going to big business which has been able to cut wages in these areas and thus expenses, though I believe they will eventually automate quite a few of these jobs long-term using AI and robotics. I imagine no humans will be doing janitorial before too long other than maybe a human manager to oversee the robot workforce. Probably similar in fast food. I imagine full service restaurant work and construction will still require human workers for higher skill jobs with robots doing scut work and basic labor.

Labor force is going to change immensely in the next 50 to 100 years as the Age of Robots progresses. It will be interesting to see the John Henry tale playout in far more fields than humans will like. The robots are coming and they will not be stopped.

[River Dog]

It's been 4 years since the Covid shutdown ended. It's in the rear-view mirror. Covid had nothing to do with the age demographics and retirements which are what's driving the labor shortage, especially in blue collar jobs, work that the younger generations don't want to do. The demand is expanding and there aren't enough new workers to backfill the exits. It's inevitable that the trend will continue for the next 5 years until the last of the Boomers retire. The average age of occupations like electricians tells us that.

We're gonna have to agree to disagree on the effect Covid had. But I will say that I haven't heard anyone else give that reason as an excuse for our current labor shortage problems.

I agree that robotics will begin to re-shape the labor situation. But it's no different in its effect than the automation that's been occurring since the beginning of the industrial revolution.

[I-5]

Speaking of 'weird', now it's the media's turn. During the TV interview with Harris & Walz, CNN's Dana Bash points out to Walz that he said 'IVF' instead of 'IUI" to describe the process he and his wife went through to get pregnant, then asked him 'what do you say to voters who aren’t sure whether they can take you at your word?' I just thought, is the interviewer seriously thinking she had him in a GOTCHA moment because he interchanged the two acronyms, that the nation now will not trust him? Does anyone even know or care what the difference is? I felt like it was an SNL skit.

[River Dog]

Speaking of 'weird', now it's the media's turn. During the TV interview with Harris & Walz, CNN's Dana Bash points out to Walz that he said 'IVF' instead of 'IUI" to describe the process he and his wife went through to get pregnant, then asked him 'what do you say to voters who aren’t sure whether they can take you at your word?' I just thought, is the interviewer seriously thinking she had him in a GOTCHA moment because he interchanged the two acronyms, that the nation now will not trust him? Does anyone even know or care what the difference is? I felt like it was an SNL skit.

What Waltz's wife went through was "IVF", or in-vitro fertilization, ie a test tube baby. It's sometimes referred to as ART, or Assisted Reproductive Technology. It's come under fire by conservatives recently as some are claiming that the unplanted embryos should be treated as human beings.

Speaking of IVF, it's an issue which I have some very personal involvement with. My daughter and son-in-law couldn't conceive, so they went the IVF route, of which I participated financially in. They got lucky, and my only grandchild (the only one I know of, that is) is a product of IVF. It's an amazing technology as it allows a couple to select the sex and time the pregnancy. They still have a number of embryos in cryogenic storage.

Having not seen the interview or knowing who Dana Bash is, my WAG is that the motivation may have been an over emphasis on her desire to be fair as Trump, Biden, Vance, and even Harris have been guilty of a 'GOTCHA' moment in recent months and were pounced on by the media. She might have been looking for anything to prove that she's even handed.

[I-5]

What Waltz's wife went through was "IVF", or in-vitro fertilization, ie a test tube baby. It's sometimes referred to as ART, or Assisted Reproductive Technology. It's come under fire by conservatives recently as some are claiming that the unplanted embryos should be treated as human beings.

Speaking of IVF, it's an issue which I have some very personal involvement with. My daughter and son-in-law couldn't conceive, so they went the IVF route, of which I participated financially in. They got lucky, and my only grandchild (the only one I know of, that is) is a product of IVF. It's an amazing technology as it allows a couple to select the sex and time the pregnancy. They still have a number of embryos in cryogenic storage.

Having not seen the interview or knowing who Dana Bash is, my WAG is that the motivation may have been an over emphasis on her desire to be fair as Trump, Biden, Vance, and even Harris have been guilty of a 'GOTCHA' moment in recent months and were pounced on by the media. She might have been looking for anything to prove that she's even handed.

Congrats on your grandchild. IVF is indeed an amazing technology. You're probably right why Dana Bash felt she had to ask it, but throwing the 'how can we trust you after this' made her look utterly ridiculous. It's like saying Tim Walz says he had a Coke with his corndog, but it was really a Pepsi. How can we ever trust him after this...

[River Dog]

Congrats on your grandchild. IVF is indeed an amazing technology. You're probably right why Dana Bash felt she had to ask it, but throwing the 'how can we trust you after this' made her look utterly ridiculous. It's like saying Tim Walz says he had a Coke with his corndog, but it was really a Pepsi. How can we ever trust him after this...

Thanks on the congrats.

Although I haven't seen the clip you're talking about, I agree with your assessment and like the Coke vs. Pepsi analogy. It reminds me of how the Dems/liberals once tried to use Bush 43's reference to a fake turkey at a Thanksgiving dinner and saying "doesn't this look yummy?!" as evidence that he lies.

[I-5]

Although I haven't seen the clip you're talking about, I agree with your assessment and like the Coke vs. Pepsi analogy. It reminds me of how the Dems/liberals once tried to use Bush 43's reference to a fake turkey at a Thanksgiving dinner and saying "doesn't this look yummy?!" as evidence that he lies.

You should watch the clip to get the real time effect of how silly she looked asking it. It wasn't a later reaction like Bush's turkey. Both sides do it. People still talk about the utter scandal of Obama's tan suit. Yes, he did wear it during a sensitive press conference...still doesn't make the over the top reaction any less stupid.

[River Dog]

Although I haven't seen the clip you're talking about, I agree with your assessment and like the Coke vs. Pepsi analogy. It reminds me of how the Dems/liberals once tried to use Bush 43's reference to a fake turkey at a Thanksgiving dinner and saying "doesn't this look yummy?!" as evidence that he lies.

You should watch the clip to get the real time effect of how silly she looked asking it. It wasn't a later reaction like Bush's turkey. Both sides do it. People still talk about the utter scandal of Obama's tan suit. Yes, he did wear it during a sensitive press conference...still doesn't make the over the top reaction any less stupid.

The thing I remember about Obama in relation to that kind of stupidity is that during an interview, a fly buzzed in front of his face, and he swatted at it with his hand. PETA sent him a catch-and-release fly swatter.

I'm not all that interested in the clip. I'm more concerned about this upcoming election, and the fact is that Harris is in trouble. She didn't get the expected post-convention 'bounce' that normally accompanies a nominee. She had a nice honeymoon period after Biden stepped down, but now that it has worn off, her popularity seems to have peaked, and she's beginning to lose ground in the swing states. She made a horrible choice in picking Waltz as her VP as the questions about his military record and his statements surrounding it haven't dissipated and will surely come up during the campaign, a distraction that Harris doesn't need. He doesn't help her in the electoral college.

This is the beginning of the post Labor Day home stretch of the election. Hopefully, the debates can change the current trend or Trump will make some big gaffe, but as it stands at this point, I'm not liking what I see and feel that we're in for another 4 years of the Orange Baboon.

I'm also hearing that if Trump loses in November, that his violent MAGA followers will engage in some type of violent reaction. The Republican mayor of Mesa, AZ, claims that Trump's allies are laying the groundwork for "chaos and violence" if they lose.