Capitol Riot Investigation

[RiverDog]

Our friend Hawktalk seems to have taken an LOA, probably because there's no more Donald Trump to kick around, but I'd love to hear his take on this as he once said that if there were blacks participating in the riot that there'd be a lot more arrests:

The Justice Department has notified federal judges in Washington that it expects to charge more than 500 people with taking part in the Jan. 6 riot at the U.S. Capitol.

"Over 400 individuals have been charged in connection with the Capitol attack," federal prosecutors said in court documents filed late Thursday. "The investigation continues and the government expects that at least one hundred additional individuals will charged."

The current number of people charged is 440, a law enforcement official said Friday.

Justice Department lawyers have described the sprawling investigation as one of the largest in American history in terms of the number of charges filed and the volume of evidence, which includes more than 15,000 hours of video from surveillance and police body cameras.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/ju ... cid=msnews

Although I'm going to stop well short of calling for locking these idiots up and throw the key away, depending on the evidence they have on their individual actions, each person should have to pay a heavy penalty for their participation.

These folks will soon find out that if convicted of a felony, it's going to be paper clipped to every job application they submit. I know that my former employer won't hire a convicted felon.

[c_hawkbob]

Although I'm going to stop well short of calling for locking these idiots up and throw the key away, depending on the evidence they have on their individual actions, each person should have to pay a heavy penalty for their participation.

Then I'll say it! Throw the absolute book at each and every one of them! Max sentences allowable. They kept shouting "1776" ... well in 1776 they'd have arrested each of them on the spot and started building gallows (to save ammunition for the real war, which still had another 6 or 7 years to fight on).

[RiverDog]

Although I'm going to stop well short of calling for locking these idiots up and throw the key away, depending on the evidence they have on their individual actions, each person should have to pay a heavy penalty for their participation.

Then I'll say it! Throw the absolute book at each and every one of them! Max sentences allowable. They kept shouting "1776" ... well in 1776 they'd have arrested each of them on the spot and started building gallows (to save ammunition for the real war, which still had another 6 or 7 years to fight on).

The ones that brought weapons or seized items and used them as weapons, and those that organized and/or incited it, absolutely. But I don't want to paint them all with the same brush stroke. 500 accused is a lot of people, and the extent of their participation undoubtedly varies widely, from assaulting a police officer to entering a government building w/o permission.

[c_hawkbob]

The ones that brought weapons or seized items and used them as weapons, and those that organized and/or incited it, absolutely. But I don't want to paint them all with the same brush stroke. 500 accused is a lot of people, and the extent of their participation undoubtedly varies widely, from assaulting a police officer to entering a government building w/o permission.

Then they will be charged to different degrees. I still say give them the max sentences allowable for whatever charge they get convicted of.

[RiverDog]

The ones that brought weapons or seized items and used them as weapons, and those that organized and/or incited it, absolutely. But I don't want to paint them all with the same brush stroke. 500 accused is a lot of people, and the extent of their participation undoubtedly varies widely, from assaulting a police officer to entering a government building w/o permission.

Then they will be charged to different degrees. I still say give them the max sentences allowable for whatever charge they get convicted of.

As in all crimes, the sentence they should receive depends on their past record. If they've never been charged with anything more serious than not paying a parking ticket and the only evidence they have on them in the riot is being on federal property w/o permission, I'm not going to throw the book at them and give them the max allowable, and I doubt that any court will, either.

The point of the investigation is to find as many participants as possible and hold all of them accountable for their actions, big and small. You don't have to throw the book at every single one of them to achieve that goal.

[c_hawkbob]

As in all crimes, the sentence they should receive depends on their past record

All crimes? I disagree, especially when it comes to crimes against one's own country.

[RiverDog]

As in all crimes, the sentence they should receive depends on their past record

All crimes? I disagree, especially when it comes to crimes against one's own country.

The vast majority of crimes. Of course, there's going to be some very rare cases where one might not take into consideration a clean record when determining punishment, which may include a couple perps in this case (such as that moonbat head of the Oath Keepers).

And how do you define a "crime against one's own country"? If one of the perpetrators was a foreigner here on a visa, you mean that they should be treated differently than a national accused of the same crime?

[c_hawkbob]

I think you know exactly what I mean. I don't think it necessary to dive into the minutia. I will leave it at storming the capitol to disrupt the constitutionally mandated performance of congressional duties is a crime against the USA, and IMO that applies to the least of the insurrectionists. Let alone those with violent or homicidal intent.

[RiverDog]

I think you know exactly what I mean. I don't think it necessary to dive into the minutia. I will leave it at storming the capitol to disrupt the constitutionally mandated performance of congressional duties is a crime against the USA, and IMO that applies to the least of the insurrectionists. Let alone those with violent or homicidal intent.

Yes, I understand exactly what you mean, and in principle, I agree with you. But legally, there is no distinction between the types of crimes the majority of the participants are accused of committing and any other misdemeanor trespassing law. You are advocating that we go beyond what the law stipulates, ie taking into consideration a "crime against your country", of which there is no legal definition. You could make a similar argument against those accused of breaching the federal courthouse in Portland this summer during the BLM riots.

It may be that we need stricter laws that have more severe penalties against those convicted of attempting to obstruct Congress in the exercise of their Constitutional duties (or some other language that can be applied to state and local governments) even if their only act was to be on federal property w/o permission during an insurrection and took no active part in the assault nor engaged in any kind of physical violence. I would be the first to support such legislation, but we can't apply it retroactively to the participants in this riot/insurrection.

[c_hawkbob]

I'm not at all as sure as you seem to be about legal distinctions between the events of Jan 6th and simple trespassing.

And I am expressly not advocating going beyond what the law stipulates! I said quite clearly, and even reiterated, dispensing the max sentences allowable for whatever charge they get convicted of. I never said to go beyond that.

I'll take responsibility for what I actually say, not for how you choose to interpret it.

[RiverDog]

I'm not at all as sure as you seem to be about legal distinctions between the events of Jan 6th and simple trespassing.

And I am expressly not advocating going beyond what the law stipulates! I said quite clearly, and even reiterated dispensing the max sentences allowable for whatever charge they get convicted of. I never said to go beyond that.

I'll take responsibility for what I actually say, not for how you choose to interpret it.

You are advocating that a judge not take into consideration an accused's past record like they would in any other "low level offense" when it comes time to sentence them. In other words, throw the book at them no matter how passive their involvement or how clean their past is. That's going beyond what normally happens in a typical court proceeding.

If there is a legal distinction written into the law of which those being accused of violating on Jan. 6th and garden variety trespassing, then I'll concede. But I have seen no such law or distinction and none is given in anything I've read or heard about the arrests.

[RiverDog]

Along the same subject, here's a good discussion on the types of crimes that some of the perps in the Capitol riot may be accused of committing:

https://www.lawfareblog.com/heres-how-c ... iminal-law

Most of those reference an active, physical role, such as "willfully injures or commits any depredation against any property of the United States" or robbing or attempting to rob “another of any kind or description of personal property belonging to the United States.” not simply being on government property w/o permission. But the indication I got from the "lower level offenses" comment in the article I noted in the OP was that most of those accused were not seen engaging in violent, destructive behavior.

In any event, any judgment needs to take into consideration all factors, including an accused's previous criminal record or lack thereof.

[Hawktawk]

Hi guys . Long time . I’ve been so busy . RD as for these 500 potential arrests of people on tape whoop de doo . The day Trump had riot police smash peaceful protesters in Lafayette square to commit a fascist act there were over 400 arrests day of . Well over 5 k protesters were arrested nationally after Floyd's murder and ensuing protests and violence . At least it’s a democratic led justice department now so maybe some of these insurrectionist will pay the price . But unless Trump
Is one of them it’s a joke .

[c_hawkbob]

Hi guys . Long time . I’ve been so busy . RD as for these 500 potential arrests of people on tape whoop de doo . The day Trump had riot police smash peaceful protesters in Lafayette square to commit a fascist act there were over 400 arrests day of . Well over 5 k protesters were arrested nationally after Floyd's murder and ensuing protests and violence . At least it’s a democratic led justice department now so maybe some of these insurrectionist will pay the price . But unless Trump
Is one of them it’s a joke .

Nice to see you back, and I agree.

[Aseahawkfan]

Hi guys . Long time . I’ve been so busy . RD as for these 500 potential arrests of people on tape whoop de doo . The day Trump had riot police smash peaceful protesters in Lafayette square to commit a fascist act there were over 400 arrests day of . Well over 5 k protesters were arrested nationally after Floyd's murder and ensuing protests and violence . At least it’s a democratic led justice department now so maybe some of these insurrectionist will pay the price . But unless Trump
Is one of them it’s a joke .

I bet you been sleeping a ton better since Trump has been gone.

[RiverDog]

Hi guys . Long time . I’ve been so busy . RD as for these 500 potential arrests of people on tape whoop de doo . The day Trump had riot police smash peaceful protesters in Lafayette square to commit a fascist act there were over 400 arrests day of . Well over 5 k protesters were arrested nationally after Floyd's murder and ensuing protests and violence . At least it’s a democratic led justice department now so maybe some of these insurrectionist will pay the price . But unless Trump
Is one of them it’s a joke .

Great to see you back again! Your absence had me worried.

The 5K arrested in the BLM riots represents a tiny fraction of those that were violently protesting in riots that lasted months in scores of cities, not a couple of hours at one venue as was the case of the Jan. 6th event. The Capitol riot investigation is one of the largest, most sweeping investigation ever undertaken by the DOJ for a singular event. Apples and oranges compared to the BLM riots.

[Hawktawk]

I bet you been sleeping a ton better since Trump has been gone.

I always carry the weight of the world on my shoulders honestly even though its way above my pay grade. It didn't start with trump although my antenna were burning off with the threat and danger posed by a non serious psychotic person as commander in chief the last 4 years. Now we have a guy who has clearly lost his fastball and is far to the left of my ideal and even my expectations for his supposedly somewhat moderate bipartisan agenda. Russia is more menacing than ever and I fear they have the upper hand and very unthinkable plans to reshape the world order. I at least feel that we have a serious responsible person in the oval office who will listen to his advisors and experts and scientists.

But politicians aren't what make me sleep soundly. Way more work than an almost 62 year old guy should be doing followed by a few cocktails and a snap off the devils lettuce and saying the evening prayers are what does that. I'm only manic when I'm awake

[RiverDog]

I bet you been sleeping a ton better since Trump has been gone.

always carry the weight of the world on my shoulders honestly even though its way above my pay grade. It didn't start with trump although my antenna were burning off with the threat and danger posed by a non serious psychotic person as commander in chief the last 4 years. Now we have a guy who has clearly lost his fastball and is far to the left of my ideal and even my expectations for his supposedly somewhat moderate bipartisan agenda. Russia is more menacing than ever and I fear they have the upper hand and very unthinkable plans to reshape the world order. I at least feel that we have a serious responsible person in the oval office who will listen to his advisors and experts and scientists.

But politicians aren't what make me sleep soundly. Way more work than an almost 62 year old guy should be doing followed by a few cocktails and a snap off the devils lettuce and saying the evening prayers are what does that. I'm only manic when I'm awake

Russia doesn't scare me nearly as much as China does. You have to look at a country's economic health as well as their military might when assessing overall strengths. Russia's economy doesn't even rank in the top 10. South Korea is a bigger economic power than Russia is. There's more to assessing threats than bullets and bombs. Taiwan his a huge potential flash point, more so than anything in the European theatre.

As far as Biden goes, he's far from perfect and I don't like some of the initiatives I've been hearing rumbling around, like packing SCOTUS. But he is doing a good job of fighting the pandemic. I fully expect the R's to re-take the House in '22. Despite the huge turnout in 2020, which is supposed to favor the Dems, the R's did pretty darn well in down ballot races. Give me gridlock or give me death!

[Aseahawkfan]

I always carry the weight of the world on my shoulders honestly even though its way above my pay grade. It didn't start with trump although my antenna were burning off with the threat and danger posed by a non serious psychotic person as commander in chief the last 4 years. Now we have a guy who has clearly lost his fastball and is far to the left of my ideal and even my expectations for his supposedly somewhat moderate bipartisan agenda. Russia is more menacing than ever and I fear they have the upper hand and very unthinkable plans to reshape the world order. I at least feel that we have a serious responsible person in the oval office who will listen to his advisors and experts and scientists.

But politicians aren't what make me sleep soundly. Way more work than an almost 62 year old guy should be doing followed by a few cocktails and a snap off the devils lettuce and saying the evening prayers are what does that. I'm only manic when I'm awake

Lots of threats in the world and nations making power moves. The big ones are obvious in China and Russia. The smaller ones like Turkey, Saudi Arabia, and Afghanistan less well known. There will always be threats internal and external to America. It's gonna be our own people that change the nation in ways that seem bad to older people like us. They are really pushing changes go our culture that seem terrible. UBI (universal basic income) seems to be gaining ground as the nice way to say handout. Americans were never taught to become dependent on the government for a handout to survive no matter how nicely worded it. It is basically a worthless form of wealth distribution sold in a nice package that is going to make Americans even more dependent on the government. It's basically an idea for the Democrats to buy votes and keep people addicted to handouts. Something Americans found shameful when I was young, utterly shameful.

The work ethic, the desire for a large invasive government, the want of handouts, and the general value changes being encouraged by such programs are turning America into a nation I don't even understand any longer.

The younger people are tattooed and pierced up with mental issues that they bring up as reasons for their behavior I can't even contemplate.

It's just a very strange world. For someone raised by the children of farm people where working hurt, working hard, and taking care of yourself and your family by doing so was the values of the people that raised me, this generation is a weird bunch wanting crap like UBI, safe spaces, and constantly on their phones even at work. Hope you can retire soon like Riverdog HaWktawk, so you can relax some.

[NorthHawk]

I saw a segment on Amanpour and Company last night.
It was very interesting as the guest discussed who the rioters really were and their demographics and viewpoints.

Here's a link. If you have the time the interview is informative and interesting for those of us who don't see the whole picture.

https://www.pbs.org/wnet/amanpour-and-c ... en-ryn3m2/

[c_hawkbob]

Predominantly scared white racists. Not really a revelation, at least not to me. It's precisely how Trump played to these people.

Not to insinuate that this wasn't a very interesting piece, it was. It's good to see that there are people analyzing this 'movement' so carefully and accurately. It gives some hope that even though the interview was pretty void of solutions, we may be on the right track to finding and implementing effective measures to counter it.

[NorthHawk]

Predominantly scared white racists. Not really a revelation, at least not to me. It's precisely how Trump played to these people.

What is concerning to me is the number of people that said they are willing to take part in some type of insurrection like action and others who support them
but aren't willing to take that step - for now. That's 25 million people who think that way. It's no wonder the authorities are worried.

[c_hawkbob]

Yeah, the "for now" is a bit chilling to think about. It's what makes Trump's entire strategy so anti American. He's just so willing to win at all costs that he's using 'divide and conquer' on the fabric of the country itself. It's pure evil to my mind, especially when you understand that it is just a means to an end for him, he's no more personally invested in the ideology he's espousing than a televangelist is. It's just winning or not winning.

[NorthHawk]

Yeah, the "for now" is a bit chilling to think about. It's what makes Trump's entire strategy so anti American. He's just so willing to win at all costs that he's using 'divide and conquer' on the fabric of the country itself. It's pure evil to my mind, especially when you understand that it is just a means to an end for him, he's no more personally invested in the ideology he's espousing than a televangelist is. It's just winning or not winning.

It's part of Trumps supreme narcissism. His idea is that the country can go to hell as long as he wins.

[Aseahawkfan]

What is concerning to me is the number of people that said they are willing to take part in some type of insurrection like action and others who support them
but aren't willing to take that step - for now. That's 25 million people who think that way. It's no wonder the authorities are worried.

Yep. We're one nasty, charismatic leader worse than Trump away from a Civil War and a split in America. It's been growing for some time. We are at a very large divide in the direction of America on a lot of issues.

America usually finds a leader to calm this down and bring people together at some point, but who knows, we may not this time. Being a leader in America right now doesn't look particularly fun given the partisan divide and the constant media attacks and invasiveness.

I'm not sure what it is like in other parts of the world, but America is a powder keg waiting for a leader to really push the partisan divide to a whole new level that even Trump did not imagine.

[Aseahawkfan]

I saw a segment on Amanpour and Company last night.
It was very interesting as the guest discussed who the rioters really were and their demographics and viewpoints.

Here's a link. If you have the time the interview is informative and interesting for those of us who don't see the whole picture.

https://www.pbs.org/wnet/amanpour-and-c ... en-ryn3m2/

Wow. I did not realize there were so many educated people and people with a ton to lose in the capitol riots. That is a really odd demographic to engage in the capitol riots. Interesting study. This is way more a mainstream group than many were reporting.

This guy studies interesting conflicts. Nice find.

[Hawktawk]

I saw where Liz Cheney is about to be forced out of the # 3 in the house in favor of a Trumpanzee convert , a former moderate who has caught the Trump virus . Cheney has been defiant as have some of the others who voted to impeach the man for starting a riot and doing everything in his power to destroy our democracy . That’s the litmus test now , fealty to a psychotic vindictive man who finished off the most chaotic corrupt inept adminstration in history with a riot . Lindsey Graham who is surely unflattering in the nudes Trump has on him or whatever other blackmail said “ the party can’t move forward without Trump “. Google Lindsay Graham in mid 2017 on Trump and his polls started sliding and presto chango. I’ve got news for Graham. The Republican Party is Liz Cheney , it’s Mitt Romney , it’s Adam Kinziger and the rest who finally said enough is enough but over half the R congress supported this insurrection . They are a cult . There’s no Republican Party left Lindsey so go ahead and run on the guy who lost a comfortable majority in both houses and lost to an unabashed liberal platform and a guy in Biden who pulled 81 million votes which were far more AGAINST trump than for Biden . We see where the voter suppression bills are popping up everywhere . We will see what happens in 22. I know I will never vote for anyone who supports the man at all.

[RiverDog]

I saw where Liz Cheney is about to be forced out of the # 3 in the house in favor of a Trumpanzee convert , a former moderate who has caught the Trump virus . Cheney has been defiant as have some of the others who voted to impeach the man for starting a riot and doing everything in his power to destroy our democracy . That’s the litmus test now , fealty to a psychotic vindictive man who finished off the most chaotic corrupt inept adminstration in history with a riot . Lindsey Graham who is surely unflattering in the nudes Trump has on him or whatever other blackmail said “ the party can’t move forward without Trump “. Google Lindsay Graham in mid 2017 on Trump and his polls started sliding and presto chango. I’ve got news for Graham. The Republican Party is Liz Cheney , it’s Mitt Romney , it’s Adam Kinziger and the rest who finally said enough is enough but over half the R congress supported this insurrection . They are a cult . There’s no Republican Party left Lindsey so go ahead and run on the guy who lost a comfortable majority in both houses and lost to an unabashed liberal platform and a guy in Biden who pulled 81 million votes which were far more AGAINST trump than for Biden . We see where the voter suppression bills are popping up everywhere . We will see what happens in 22. I know I will never vote for anyone who supports the man at all.

The litmus test for me is the exact opposite. If they are a supporter of Trump, I won't vote for them.

The Congressional representative in my district, Dan Newhouse, was one of a handful of R's to vote to impeach Trump over the Capitol riot. He is being challenged for the Republican nomination by Loren Culp, a Trump clone that unsuccessfully ran for Governor and after having lost by over 500,000 votes and by over 13% of the votes cast, did his best Trump impersonation by refusing to concede and claimed that the election was stolen. If this nut case were to defeat Newhouse in the primary, I'll be voting for another Democrat in the general election.

[Aseahawkfan]

The litmus test for me is the exact opposite. If they are a supporter of Trump, I won't vote for them.

The Congressional representative in my district, Dan Newhouse, was one of a handful of R's to vote to impeach Trump over the Capitol riot. He is being challenged for the Republican nomination by Loren Culp, a Trump clone that unsuccessfully ran for Governor and after having lost by over 500,000 votes and by over 13% of the votes cast, did his best Trump impersonation by refusing to concede and claimed that the election was stolen. If this nut case were to defeat Newhouse in the primary, I'll be voting for another Democrat in the general election.

What if the Democrat is equally nuts like a Kshawa Sawant? You would vote for her over a Trump follower? That's where we're at now? A choice of two nuts. That is a damn shame.

[RiverDog]

The litmus test for me is the exact opposite. If they are a supporter of Trump, I won't vote for them.

The Congressional representative in my district, Dan Newhouse, was one of a handful of R's to vote to impeach Trump over the Capitol riot. He is being challenged for the Republican nomination by Loren Culp, a Trump clone that unsuccessfully ran for Governor and after having lost by over 500,000 votes and by over 13% of the votes cast, did his best Trump impersonation by refusing to concede and claimed that the election was stolen. If this nut case were to defeat Newhouse in the primary, I'll be voting for another Democrat in the general election.

What if the Democrat is equally nuts like a Kshawa Sawant? You would vote for her over a Trump follower? That's where we're at now? A choice of two nuts. That is a damn shame.

Although not quite that dramatic, that's essentially the choice we were given in 2016 when I voted for Gary Johnson. If there is no viable 3rd party candidate and we're given a choice like that, I'd sit it out and not vote at all.

Last fall, even though I don't like him, I did vote for Jay Inslee, a Democrat, as I felt he was doing a relatively decent job responding to the pandemic and that the Republican candidate was completely unacceptable.

I see now where the Republican Congress is giving Liz Cheney the boot even though she' voted with Trump nearly 93% of the time simply because she doesn't like the man himself. They really have gone over the deep end. There really isn't a political party that comes close to my philosophy of a fiscal conservative and social moderate.

[Aseahawkfan]

Although not quite that dramatic, that's essentially the choice we were given in 2016 when I voted for Gary Johnson. If there is no viable 3rd party candidate and we're given a choice like that, I'd sit it out and not vote at all.

Last fall, even though I don't like him, I did vote for Jay Inslee, a Democrat, as I felt he was doing a relatively decent job responding to the pandemic and that the Republican candidate was completely unacceptable.

I see now where the Republican Congress is giving Liz Cheney the boot even though she' voted with Trump nearly 93% of the time simply because she doesn't like the man himself. They really have gone over the deep end. There really isn't a political party that comes close to my philosophy of a fiscal conservative and social moderate.

I didn't vote for Culp either. Seemed like a loon. Not sure how he rose up to even run. And you know I hate Inslee. I couldn't vote for him.

[RiverDog]

I didn't vote for Culp either. Seemed like a loon. Not sure how he rose up to even run. And you know I hate Inslee. I couldn't vote for him.

Culp IS a loon. IMO his rise can be attributed to an extremely liberal west side of the state that over the course of the past several decades has come to dominate state politics. A Republican hasn't won a state wide election since the mid 90's. The west flexes their muscle by passing laws like I-1639, a controversial gun control bill that the vast majority of voters in eastern Washington were against. They keep pushing dam breaching and so called "green power", replacing renewable, non fossil fuel hydropower with thousands of windmills that are as tall as the Space Needle. There's a lot of pent up anger against the west side that has started a credible movement to break off from the western half and form our own state. Many in eastern Washington feel disenfranchised, that we have no voice at the table, that our opinions don't matter, and are drowned out by the more populous west side.

Additionally, the liberal Dem's reaction to the BLM riots, particularly in Seattle, and initiatives to defund the police has driven a wedge between east and west, R's and D's, that has deepened the divide. I don't see any resolution in the near future so long as the population imbalance exists.

It's this dynamic that has led to the Republican party becoming even more radical and provided the fodder for a candidate like Culp to rise, a microcosm of the political landscape nation wide that allowed Donald Trump to accede to POTUS. The irony is that it has resulted in Republicans giving themselves even less of a chance of winning a state wide election than they would if they nominated a more moderate candidate that people like me could support.

I don't like Inslee, either, but he has done a credible job fighting the pandemic. Just last week, he allowed counties in the state to stay in Phase 3, correctly reasoning that this 4th wave is different in that 50% of the population has been vaccinated and the average age of those infected is much younger and therefore less deadly. Contrast Inslee's decision with that of Kate Brown of Oregon, who was confronted with the same choice given Inslee. She has moved a number of counties in her state back into Phase 2, apparently not understanding the differences that Inslee seems to have recognized.

[NorthHawk]

I never thought I would see the day when a true conservative like Liz Cheney would be shunned by the Republican Party. That's a weird state of affairs.
I'm beginning to think that the best way for that party would be for it to split into 2 segments - the Trumps supporters and the traditional conservatives.
That would give the Dems the elections for a short while, but it would show the R's that the Trumpers have a minority of support and maybe drive a stake into the
heart of Trumpism. It would probably also suck a lot of money out of that cult. It would mean honor and sacrifice from career politicians, and I don't expect any
of them to do that, but who knows? Maybe there are some people of principle out there still and would be willing to sacrifice their careers for a short term for
a better long term future.

[c_hawkbob]

That's sort of what the Lincoln Project is trying to accomplish. They were put together with the stated goal of seeing Trump defeated in 2020 (whether or not they're entitled to any credit for his loss is open for debate), but creating a home for anti Trump conservatives is what they're about now.

[NorthHawk]

That's sort of what the Lincoln Project is trying to accomplish. They were put together with the stated goal of seeing Trump defeated in 2020 (whether or not they're entitled to any credit for his loss is open for debate), but creating a home for anti Trump conservatives is what they're about now.

Cool. I didn't know they had evolved past defeating Trump in 2020. Maybe it will work out for them to take back the Republican Party.

[c_hawkbob]

Trumps support is still pretty strong within the party but we could see that wane as his popularity among voters declines, which judging by his "From the Desk Of" low numbers might just be happening. At least some people may finally have had enough of him.

[Aseahawkfan]

Trump's old. He'll disappear soon. There is no one with his charisma to replace him. The sniveling sycophants in the party like Lindsey Graham and Ted Cruz will glom on to the next rising star in The Republican Party changing their tune to align with whoever is the voice of the masses leading them around by their collective noses. The real voice and heart of the Republican Party is Fox News and the other conservative news channels selling their version of conservatism and that rubbish.

[RiverDog]

Trump's old. He'll disappear soon. There is no one with his charisma to replace him. The sniveling sycophants in the party like Lindsey Graham and Ted Cruz will glom on to the next rising star in The Republican Party changing their tune to align with whoever is the voice of the masses leading them around by their collective noses. The real voice and heart of the Republican Party is Fox News and the other conservative news channels selling their version of conservatism and that rubbish.

Trump is 74 years old and has shown no signs of easing into retirement. He could easily hang around at least another 4-6 years. The only thing that's going to stop him is if he has a medical event.

There's no political reason for Republicans to dump Trump. They did much better than expectations in 2020. The Presidential election was a lot closer than most people expected, the R's did very well in the down ballot races, winning one more governorship than the D's, they nearly held onto the Senate despite being at a mathematical disadvantage, and despite losing the White House, the R's actually gained seats in the House, all of this in front of a backdrop of a historic turnout of which conventional wisdom says is supposed to favor the Democrats.

Until the R's start losing elections, Trump and Trumpism will still be a major influence in the party.

[Aseahawkfan]

Trump is 74 years old and has shown no signs of easing into retirement. He could easily hang around at least another 4-6 years. The only thing that's going to stop him is if he has a medical event.

There's no political reason for Republicans to dump Trump. They did much better than expectations in 2020. The Presidential election was a lot closer than most people expected, the R's did very well in the down ballot races, winning one more governorship than the D's, they nearly held onto the Senate despite being at a mathematical disadvantage, and despite losing the White House, the R's actually gained seats in the House, all of this in front of a backdrop of a historic turnout of which conventional wisdom says is supposed to favor the Democrats.

Until the R's start losing elections, Trump and Trumpism will still be a major influence in the party.

We'll see in 2022 won't we.

My Republican friends are still very much onboard with anyone but the Democrats. Some like Trump, some don't, but they are against the Democrats. Now that Fox News is blasting Critical Race Theory as being embraced by the Democrats and left wing, more Dems hate white people rhetoric is fueling them. The defund the police is part of the Dems hate white people movement now. The 1619 Project. And an attack on all American institutions as systemically racist is viewed as an attack on white people.

And the new voting laws in various states are showing the hypocrisy of the Democrats clearly like moving the MLB All Star game to Colorado even though Colorado supposedly has more restrictive voting laws than Georgia.

UBI. Unemployment benefits that are slowing a return to the workplace. Tax increases that will make long-term investing unattractive and damage many people's retirements. I think the government vastly underestimates how many people invest and build wealth through investments including retirees who have spent decades building up their investments.

So I don't know. Dems are giving the Republicans a ton of ammunition to use against them come 2022. So you may be right.

I've kind of checked out since Trump left of it all myself only hearing about it second hand from buddies. Neither of these parties is looking attractive to vote for. It's straight up un-American crazy on both sides. Whether it's the Republican anti-immigration garbage and lack of acknowledgment of America's racist history or the Dems defund the police and taxes will fix everything mentality even thought it never has. I don't know why Democratic supporters want to empower the government to further increase their dependence on it. Doesn't make much sense to me to want a bigger, more bloated government sucking in taxes and handing them out to create dependence.

But this is not the America I grew up in. These new Americans don't know what it means to be an American or be free. They want what they think is security over freedom, but is really dependence on the government and a stifling environment for wealth building where if you build too much you get punishing taxation even if you built up from nothing. Basically, Democrats believe in punishing people for their success. I've never been onboard with that.

[Aseahawkfan]

This is too funny not to post it.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/qanon-shaman-lawyer-issues-shockingly-173200108.html