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It’s hard to believe this plague is entering its 3rd year . There are clear patterns of behavior emerging in this country and more and more overseas. A significant amount of people care more about money and freedom than human life . A lot of politicians care more about votes than human life . Many in the media care more about ratings than human life . A great example is Faux news now 100% mandatory vax and employs people like Tucker Carlson and Greg Gutfield who tell prime time viewers not to get boosters .

To be fair left wing media wants to scare people for ratings as well .

As a national response overall we are dreadful , inexcusable with the (now second ) wealthiest nation , medically advanced , in the past a world leader in pandemic response .
We were flat footed or more flatlined from day one . It’s no wonder we have around 4.5% of the world population and 20 % of the deaths . We are primarily relying on data and information from European and Asian countries because our health care system and data collection apparatus is broken .
I learned after my breakthrough that my insurance charged $250 for a Covid test even though the shot is free . Makes sense . With breakthrough common now testing is more important than ever imo .
I have heard Biden will supply 500 million home tests for free which I applaud . As of this morning the new variant accounts for 78% of cases nationally . It’s encouraging only one death so far although the timeline for fatalities is around a month so we will know pretty soon .
Most other countries are in some form of rollback or shutdown but not us . I read Israel has closed their borders after 10% of the passengers on a flight from Miami tested positive , 17 of 170 passengers . It’s anticipated 30 million people will fly this weekend in America . I’ll be praying this variant is indeed mild or we are gonna see some times we’ve never seen .

Hawktawk wrote:It’s hard to believe this plague is entering its 3rd year . There are clear patterns of behavior emerging in this country and more and more overseas. A significant amount of people care more about money and freedom than human life . A lot of politicians care more about votes than human life . Many in the media care more about ratings than human life . A great example is Faux news now 100% mandatory vax and employs people like Tucker Carlson and Greg Gutfield who tell prime time viewers not to get boosters .

To be fair left wing media wants to scare people for ratings as well .

As a national response overall we are dreadful , inexcusable with the (now second ) wealthiest nation , medically advanced , in the past a world leader in pandemic response .
We were flat footed or more flatlined from day one . It’s no wonder we have around 4.5% of the world population and 20 % of the deaths . We are primarily relying on data and information from European and Asian countries because our health care system and data collection apparatus is broken .
I learned after my breakthrough that my insurance charged $250 for a Covid test even though the shot is free . Makes sense . With breakthrough common now testing is more important than ever imo .
I have heard Biden will supply 500 million home tests for free which I applaud . As of this morning the new variant accounts for 78% of cases nationally . It’s encouraging only one death so far although the timeline for fatalities is around a month so we will know pretty soon .
Most other countries are in some form of rollback or shutdown but not us . I read Israel has closed their borders after 10% of the passengers on a flight from Miami tested positive , 17 of 170 passengers . It’s anticipated 30 million people will fly this weekend in America . I’ll be praying this variant is indeed mild or we are gonna see some times we’ve never seen .

Yeah, I ordered a free, in-home Covid test this morning. I'm traveling to Las Vegas for my nephew's wedding, one that they postponed due to Covid, on New Year's Eve. I promised my wife that I'd take a test once I return from Vegas. Like you, I applaud the move to provide them free of charge. Next to vaccinations, testing is the best tool we have to fight the spread.

I agree that our response as a nation has been horrible, but I don't think you can use total deaths to illustrate it. Who knows how many people in China and India have died from it?

I've become pretty callous to the anti vaxxers and deniers and have been a little more philosophical about it. Who knows, maybe this is part of God's plan to thin the herd of the idiots in our society?

Experts have said hundreds of thousands of deaths have been preventable since the advent of vaccines . I know a few unfortunately . My breakthrough source Paul who tragically died would not even take the mononuckial antibodies or other medications . He said God would protect him . This was a smart guy, lifelong police officer and by all I’ve heard a great beloved cop and guy . But I dug a little deeper when I heard the founder of day star ministries network with 100 MILLION SUBSCRIBERS!!!!!! had died of the virus . He had preached to his 100 million followers getting vaxxed was a “ sin against god”. I dunno maybe Paul watched that guy . I heard Franklin Graham who is a political fraud say his dead buddy was “ experiencing heaven “ no mention in the religious community of the cause . A state senator from the west side caught it in El Salvador 6 weeks ago and was banned from coming home . He had them sending him Invermictun just like preacher man. Died. He had sued Inslee , called him a dictator over Covid restrictions ….
Some of these people like preacher man I don’t think are experiencing heaven .
This just in . Fox News Jesse Waters was addressing a far right youth group and said that Fauci should be ambushed in the street and given the “kill shot”. Fauci already needs full time security . Wtf

What is human life without money and freedom? Not worth living. Money is the resources to live well and do things. And freedom is the ability to pick what you want to do with your life. Take away both and what do you do? Sit huddled in your home waiting for something to end that is going on its 3rd year with no end in sight? COVID seems here to stay. It's going to be an ongoing risk indefinitely. Nothing anyone anywhere has done has shown that it's going be anything other than an ongoing situation.

Vaccines have lowered the death rate, but haven't stopped the spread and variation. Getting it and the immunity from getting it hasn't stopped it. Though I went back and read the vaccine information and it was never listed as giving immunity. It's efficacy was based on reducing death and hospitalization, not preventing people from getting COVID.

No way many of these countries are going to survive locking down all the time. No one much wants to live like that. And at some point every nation will have to learn to manage this while staying open because there is no end game currently in the works. It was a known possibility at the start of all this. Corona Viruses are notoriously adaptable and hard to stop which is why the common cold has never been eradicated. COVID is going to become endemic with people expected to manage their risk.

We're the 3rd most populous nation in the world. And our medical information system is working quite well. I would say that most other big nations either don't have the means to track information well (India) or are lying or took extreme measures to prevent the spread (China).

Hopefully Omicron will be mild. End game at this point seems to be that the virus will mutate to the point of becoming a nuisance while we vaccinate, medicate, and make our way through this pandemic. And this is still way, way, and a 1000 times better than what our ancestors had to live through with past pandemics.

And yep, expect a big holiday spike. Let's hope omicron is more bark than bite. If not, well we're going to see a real bad start to the new year.

What some of these people are doing to Fauci is criminal. The man is an infectious specialist doing his best and they're painting him as some kind of tyrant? It's ridiculous he's become the focus of right wing rage. Total idiots.

Aseahawkfan wrote:What some of these people are doing to Fauci is criminal. The man is an infectious specialist doing his best and they're painting him as some kind of tyrant? It's ridiculous he's become the focus of right wing rage. Total idiots.

I need to see the actual clip, but no matter how you spin it, saying words like "kill shot" and "ambush" in a rally like that sure sounds criminal to me. At the very least, Watters needs to be paid a visit by the FBI.

RiverDog wrote:I need to see the actual clip, but no matter how you spin it, saying words like "kill shot" and "ambush" in a rally like that sure sounds criminal to me. At the very least, Watters needs to be paid a visit by the FBI.

Not just Watters. The blame Fauci has taken for trying to manage a pandemic is ridiculous. The entire idea he is some tyrant relishing his position and enjoying the power rather than a scientist managing a pandemic he likely hoped would not occur in his life time is irritating to say the least. From all I could find on Fauci is that he has studied this type of situation much of his life. He is trained to handle infectious disease and pandemics. Pandemics are not something with clear ends or starts. They sneak up on you and spread, then you have to figure out how to manage them balancing the cost in human life with the economic, social, political, and other aspects of society.

These people like Rand Paul keep attacking this guy while they themselves offer zero solutions to handling a pandemic other than just "live with it." It's not right.

Fauci is a scientist helping manage a tough situation. It's absolutely terrible how he is treated by some of these right wing clowns. It sickens me to see.

It’s the sub cult of the cult . Plandemic.

Aseahawkfan wrote:What some of these people are doing to Fauci is criminal. The man is an infectious specialist doing his best and they're painting him as some kind of tyrant? It's ridiculous he's become the focus of right wing rage. Total idiots.

Yes, it's criminal, but is it at all surprising to hear it from Fox News? Seems perfectly normal to expect it to me.

I-5 wrote:Yes, it's criminal, but is it at all surprising to hear it from Fox News? Seems perfectly normal to expect it to me.

No. It isn't surprising. Fox News is the mouthpiece for right wing conservative issues who derive ratings by parsing the conservative segment of the country for issues that they can wind people up with to keep them watching.

While the hosts get vaccinated and follow the science, while echo chambering their viewers with "Vaccination is anti-liberty" and other such trash because all they care about is getting them to watch so they can sell the ratings to advertisers.

Left wing does it too, just not with this particular issue.

Aseahawkfan wrote:No. It isn't surprising. Fox News is the mouthpiece for right wing conservative issues who derive ratings by parsing the conservative segment of the country for issues that they can wind people up with to keep them watching.

While the hosts get vaccinated and follow the science, while echo chambering their viewers with "Vaccination is anti-liberty" and other such trash because all they care about is getting them to watch so they can sell the ratings to advertisers.

Left wing does it too, just not with this particular issue.

I will quibble just a bit on the role the left plays in this. The coverage of the pandemic has been falsehoods and conspiracy theories on the right but peddling fear and obsession on the left, definitely pinning 100% of the blame on Trump. Not far from the truth but not true.

As for Watters comments the network defended them as being rhetorical, ie that he was actually trying to talk a bunch of young white wing activists to approach Fauci in the street and ask him tough questions. Like that's really any different in a climate where Kyle Rittenhouse was an honored guest at a conservative forum, got a standing O.


Its sad. Fox used to be fair and balanced, a counter to the left bent in the mainstream media. Watters and Carlson were brilliant, funny, really cut through the liberal bs with their broadcasts. They have become as ridiculous as Anderson Cooper, maybe more. The network is a far right propaganda machine now. The Trump right is as ridiculous as the AOC left. More dangerous too.

Aseahawkfan wrote:No. It isn't surprising. Fox News is the mouthpiece for right wing conservative issues who derive ratings by parsing the conservative segment of the country for issues that they can wind people up with to keep them watching.

While the hosts get vaccinated and follow the science, while echo chambering their viewers with "Vaccination is anti-liberty" and other such trash because all they care about is getting them to watch so they can sell the ratings to advertisers.

Left wing does it too, just not with this particular issue.

Hawktawk wrote:I will quibble just a bit on the role the left plays in this. The coverage of the pandemic has been falsehoods and conspiracy theories on the right but peddling fear and obsession on the left, definitely pinning 100% of the blame on Trump. Not far from the truth but not true.

As for Watters comments the network defended them as being rhetorical, ie that he was actually trying to talk a bunch of young white wing activists to approach Fauci in the street and ask him tough questions. Like that's really any different in a climate where Kyle Rittenhouse was an honored guest at a conservative forum, got a standing O.

Its sad. Fox used to be fair and balanced, a counter to the left bent in the mainstream media. Watters and Carlson were brilliant, funny, really cut through the liberal bs with their broadcasts. They have become as ridiculous as Anderson Cooper, maybe more. The network is a far right propaganda machine now. The Trump right is as ridiculous as the AOC left. More dangerous too.

I have a lot of axes to grind with the left, but their reaction to the pandemic isn't one of them.

It's becoming increasingly clear that Trump's inaction wasn't nearly as responsible for the pandemic as we all had assumed it was. Everyone thought that we'd be over it by now, but it's proving extremely difficult to contain and it was going to bite us one way or another no matter who was in the Oval Office.

As far as Watters comments goes, he needs to be hauled into an FBI office and given a thorough shake down. Whether it was his intention or not, he put a government official's life at risk by using the type of terms he did. I'm surprised that Fox didn't at least try to distance themselves from him by saying that Watters speaks for himself and not for the network.

Although I abhor the thought, I'm afraid that the only way our country is going to snap out of this trance is if sort of shocking event happens, like a lunatic assassinating Fauci, something blatantly obvious and completely indefensible that would make the moderate right embarrassed and ashamed of itself. That's the sort of thing that happened in the south back in the 50's and 60's when blacks and civil rights workers were executed, that pushed the KKK to the fringes of society, at least until recently.

Hawktawk wrote:I will quibble just a bit on the role the left plays in this. The coverage of the pandemic has been falsehoods and conspiracy theories on the right but peddling fear and obsession on the left, definitely pinning 100% of the blame on Trump. Not far from the truth but not true.

As for Watters comments the network defended them as being rhetorical, ie that he was actually trying to talk a bunch of young white wing activists to approach Fauci in the street and ask him tough questions. Like that's really any different in a climate where Kyle Rittenhouse was an honored guest at a conservative forum, got a standing O.


Its sad. Fox used to be fair and balanced, a counter to the left bent in the mainstream media. Watters and Carlson were brilliant, funny, really cut through the liberal bs with their broadcasts. They have become as ridiculous as Anderson Cooper, maybe more. The network is a far right propaganda machine now. The Trump right is as ridiculous as the AOC left. More dangerous too.

I never saw Fox as fair and balanced in their commentary. Fox was always the mouthpiece for the Republican Party pushing right wing ideals and using whatever idiot they could find to make the left look as bad as possible. And CNN and MSNBC did the same thing back. It's always find the biggest idiot you can, use them to push fear and disdain for the opponent.

I tend to avoid the news. Just bad sources of commentary lacking historical context or using history and/or current events in a very focused manner to push a certain idea. And just generally bad for human psychology. So many people watch the news and think they know about a subject like what the news said is somehow a good analytical assessment of a topic. It isn't. Never was. Never will be. The news is at best a starting point for investigation and at worst a galvanizing force for supporting bad policies and ideas.

The only part I understand is unfortunately human beings are built with different capacities to process information and ideas. Most are very, very limited. They can't take in vast quantities of information and process it to analyze problems and pursue collective action. So we're kind of forced into debating based on biased opinion using limited information sources often biased in one direction usually on purpose to serve some agenda. But that is also present in the human historical record where only a handful of humans have dragged the rest into the modern world, while most humans if left to their level of ability to construct a society would have us still living in the time where we thought fire was a technological advancement.

RiverDog wrote:I have a lot of axes to grind with the left, but their reaction to the pandemic isn't one of them.

It's becoming increasingly clear that Trump's inaction wasn't nearly as responsible for the pandemic as we all had assumed it was. Everyone thought that we'd be over it by now, but it's proving extremely difficult to contain and it was going to bite us one way or another no matter who was in the Oval Office.

As far as Watters comments goes, he needs to be hauled into an FBI office and given a thorough shake down. Whether it was his intention or not, he put a government official's life at risk by using the type of terms he did. I'm surprised that Fox didn't at least try to distance themselves from him by saying that Watters speaks for himself and not for the network.

Although I abhor the thought, I'm afraid that the only way our country is going to snap out of this trance is if sort of shocking event happens, like a lunatic assassinating Fauci, something blatantly obvious and completely indefensible that would make the moderate right embarrassed and ashamed of itself. That's the sort of thing that happened in the south back in the 50's and 60's when blacks and civil rights workers were executed, that pushed the KKK to the fringes of society, at least until recently.

We're not a great country or culture for gaining control of a pandemic. We're big and populous. We're used to being free to wander about. We have an anti-conformity bent. I knew it wasn't going to go well once I saw what happened in Italy. I still think China way undersold the death count. They probably burned a bunch of bodies without even bothering to check if they had COVID just to keep their count low.

And other than huddling like rats in some hole waiting out the rain, we weren't going to gain much control of a pandemic with a virus spread by breathing with a massive level of asymptomatic carriers. Improving testing would help a lot as they do in South Korea, so you can catch as many asymptomatic carriers as possible. Improved testing probably would have done as much as the vaccines to reduce the death count. But we didn't take that step like South Korea. Almost every nation that has been more successful than us relied on improved testing and quarantine to more effectively control the pandemic. We didn't and still haven't. I couldn't tell you why other than it was either too costly or there is a lack of political will to do it.

South Korea had an excellent model for handling this pandemic. Very organized and good use technology and testing. But for some reason we didn't follow their model. If I had been in The White House, I would have used the South Korean model.

South Korea has about 5000 deaths with 51 million people. Even with a population 7 times their size, still would equate to 35000 total deaths compared to our 813,000 deaths. They used an organized controlled quarantine system using cell phones with quarantine rooms paid for by the government with massive and constant testing to catch asymptomatic carriers. Probably the best COVID response of any nation with a sizeable population and free society. Still boggles my mind we did not use them as a model for containing this pandemic considering this was a scientifically tested model that helped South Korea contain a SARS outbreak that was an even deadlier virus.

What I get from your description of S. Korea is that the population bought in as opposed to other countries where there is a small but steadfast anti vax segment.
Biden was right when he said it was a pandemic of the unvaccinated, and now we see the variants arise and causing problems. One of the other problems we have
is not getting vaccines to the rest of the world on a larger scale. That's were these variants seem to come from.

NorthHawk wrote:What I get from your description of S. Korea is that the population bought in as opposed to other countries where there is a small but steadfast anti vax segment.
Biden was right when he said it was a pandemic of the unvaccinated, and now we see the variants arise and causing problems. One of the other problems we have
is not getting vaccines to the rest of the world on a larger scale. That's were these variants seem to come from.

I think the testing is even more important than the vaccines myself. South Korea would catch asymptomatic carriers who are ticking time bombs when released into the general populace and quarantine them until they are clear. Asymptomatic carriers are more dangerous to the spread of this virus because they exhibit no symptoms, take no measures to prevent spread because they have no symptoms, and spread the virus as they move around until it hits someone who is highly susceptible. By that time they've heavily spread the virus to many others who end up being asymptomatic carriers continuing the spread.

Heavy testing and focused quarantine would have been a much better control system for the virus than what we're doing right now.

If you look at the original statements made by virus manufacturers, immunity was not what was sold. It was a reduced instances of hospitalization and death. They were unsure of increased immunity and eradication. So far it has played out as they stated where immunity is not high, but hospitalization and death has been reduced.

That is why I believe a quality testing and focused quarantine system would still be highly valuable and reduce deaths substantially as well. If you catch an asymptomatic carrier before they wander out and spread the virus, you can have them go into quarantine until they clear a test. Asymptomatic spread is why this pandemic is so bad and the only way to catch this is heavy testing and focused quarantine.

I just got through seeing an interesting piece on NBC news regarding Covid hospitalizations. Apparently, there are a lot of people that are coming to hospitals with non Covid issues, broken bones, lacerations, pregnancies, etc, then subsequently test positive for Covid. Most are discharged quickly, but the admission is reported to the CDC as a Covid admission. This has inflated the hospitalization rates due to Covid, so this surge isn't as serious as the numbers might indicate.

However, they did note that hospitals are still being stressed by the disease due to staff members testing positive and having to quarantine for 5 days (which now includes my daughter, who tested positive last week). They also emphasized that the most serious cases requiring ventilators and enhanced treatment continues to occur mostly within the unvaccinated.

Anyhow, I thought it interesting as it does offer some reason for hope, that this latest wave of infections and hospitalizations may not be as bad as we think. Like everyone else, I'm getting damn tired of these restrictions and protocols.

Let's hope this is the last hurrah for Covid-19 and its variants, however I just recently read about another variant of the Delta version.
Only a few cases so far, but it's different and nobody yet knows if it is as transmissible as this current one.

NorthHawk wrote:Let's hope this is the last hurrah for Covid-19 and its variants, however I just recently read about another variant of the Delta version.
Only a few cases so far, but it's different and nobody yet knows if it is as transmissible as this current one.

Yeah, it's a combination of the Delta and the Omicron variants. They're calling it Deltacrom.

I'm afraid that until we can get a much larger percentage of the world population vaccinated that we're going to be playing Whack a Mole for years, if not decades.

RiverDog wrote:Yeah, it's a combination of the Delta and the Omicron variants. They're calling it Deltacrom.

I'm afraid that until we can get a much larger percentage of the world population vaccinated that we're going to be playing Whack a Mole for years, if not decades.

I don't know if you've been reading up on it, but the vaccine does not make you immune. So we'll likely be playing whack a mole for longer even with vaccination unless this thing mutates to a weaker strain like the flu did. It is looking like Omicron mutated to a much weaker strain. Which can happen and does a lot because killing your host is a death sentence for the virus as well.

That is what I hope at this point. I'm pretty certain America at least has reached the point where we're just going to roll with it. I think that's the best plan. We can't shut down again. We know what this is. It's time to soldier on, provide good guidance for prevention and treatment, and ramp up testing and targeted quarantine, then roll on through like Americans have done through all the tough times the world has thrown at humans.

Americans used to be like pieces of iron in this country. The crap my grandparents lived through and toughed out makes this modern world look like child's play. I want that grit back for America. That toughness.

RiverDog wrote:Yeah, it's a combination of the Delta and the Omicron variants. They're calling it Deltacrom.

I'm afraid that until we can get a much larger percentage of the world population vaccinated that we're going to be playing Whack a Mole for years, if not decades.

Aseahawkfan wrote:I don't know if you've been reading up on it, but the vaccine does not make you immune. So we'll likely be playing whack a mole for longer even with vaccination unless this thing mutates to a weaker strain like the flu did. It is looking like Omicron mutated to a much weaker strain. Which can happen and does a lot because killing your host is a death sentence for the virus as well.

That is what I hope at this point. I'm pretty certain America at least has reached the point where we're just going to roll with it. I think that's the best plan. We can't shut down again. We know what this is. It's time to soldier on, provide good guidance for prevention and treatment, and ramp up testing and targeted quarantine, then roll on through like Americans have done through all the tough times the world has thrown at humans.

Americans used to be like pieces of iron in this country. The crap my grandparents lived through and toughed out makes this modern world look like child's play. I want that grit back for America. That toughness.

The current vaccines certainly don't prevent you from being infected, but they're still highly effective in preventing severe disease and death, and there's other vaccines in development that can address multiple variants. Plus there are treatments on the horizon that can help reduce the possibility of a bad outcome once infected.

But I do think you're right, that we're just going to have to live with it. The reason I made my most recent comments is because I feel that the CDC needs to come up with another metric to measure what kind of problems the virus is causing, that their current method of reporting every hospital admission as a covid admission needs to change. They also need to take another look at their isolation requirements, whether or not that they're actually reducing the spread. This current variant is so contagious that if you don't catch it from someone that is isolating, you're going to catch it from someone else anyway. I don't know if my assertation is true or not, but it needs to be looked at. My daughter, of whom found out last week that she had contracted Covid, is currently isolating but feels well enough and would have no problem going back to work if the isolation requirements were relaxed.

RiverDog wrote:The current vaccines certainly don't prevent you from being infected, but they're still highly effective in preventing severe disease and death, and there's other vaccines in development that can address multiple variants. Plus there are treatments on the horizon that can help reduce the possibility of a bad outcome once infected.

But I do think you're right, that we're just going to have to live with it. The reason I made my most recent comments is because I feel that the CDC needs to come up with another metric to measure what kind of problems the virus is causing, that their current method of reporting every hospital admission as a covid admission needs to change. They also need to take another look at their isolation requirements, whether or not that they're actually reducing the spread. This current variant is so contagious that if you don't catch it from someone that is isolating, you're going to catch it from someone else anyway. I don't know if my assertation is true or not, but it needs to be looked at. My daughter, of whom found out last week that she had contracted Covid, is currently isolating but feels well enough and would have no problem going back to work if the isolation requirements were relaxed.

An interesting study https://www.bbc.com/news/health-59911257. If true, this would be nice. The common cold might bolster immunity to COVID.

Omochron may be the end and solve the mystery of the Spanish flu . I hope so . DeltaChron is suspected to be a lab mistake due to cross contamination. I sure hope so . I lost 2 friends to delta , healthy late 50s healthy early 50s . If we get a strain as lethal as delta and as contagious as Omacron we’re gonna be saying nice knowin ya to lots of people . We have record hospitalizations but dropping deaths . I saw an interview with a doctor who said he hasn’t intubated a single person with omacron. Y’all know HT I’m a paranoid dude . Not sure it’s over . What I’ve seen already it could still mutate and be lethal. Love your family , be as safe as possible. Live your life . It sucks but it beats where my buddies Paul and George are still hard to believe

Hawktawk wrote:Omochron may be the end and solve the mystery of the Spanish flu . I hope so . DeltaChron is suspected to be a lab mistake due to cross contamination. I sure hope so . I lost 2 friends to delta , healthy late 50s healthy early 50s . If we get a strain as lethal as delta and as contagious as Omacron we’re gonna be saying nice knowin ya to lots of people . We have record hospitalizations but dropping deaths . I saw an interview with a doctor who said he hasn’t intubated a single person with omacron. Y’all know HT I’m a paranoid dude . Not sure it’s over . What I’ve seen already it could still mutate and be lethal. Love your family , be as safe as possible. Live your life . It sucks but it beats where my buddies Paul and George are still hard to believe

That's why I don't let politics interfere with friendships. It isn't worth it. My friends are more valuable than my political opinions barring some crazy extremist crap.

Hawktawk wrote:Omochron may be the end and solve the mystery of the Spanish flu . I hope so . DeltaChron is suspected to be a lab mistake due to cross contamination. I sure hope so . I lost 2 friends to delta , healthy late 50s healthy early 50s . If we get a strain as lethal as delta and as contagious as Omacron we’re gonna be saying nice knowin ya to lots of people . We have record hospitalizations but dropping deaths . I saw an interview with a doctor who said he hasn’t intubated a single person with omacron. Y’all know HT I’m a paranoid dude . Not sure it’s over . What I’ve seen already it could still mutate and be lethal. Love your family , be as safe as possible. Live your life . It sucks but it beats where my buddies Paul and George are still hard to believe

Aseahawkfan wrote:That's why I don't let politics interfere with friendships. It isn't worth it. My friends are more valuable than my political opinions barring some crazy extremist crap.

Yeah, me, too. Unless I know a person very, very well, I try to follow my dad's advice on the 3 subjects not to talk about on a first date: Sex, religion, and politics.

Employer vaccine mandate shot down by the SCOTUS. I knew Biden overstepped on that one. Medical workers vaccine mandate upheld. That has happened before and was likely to hold.

Aseahawkfan wrote:Employer vaccine mandate shot down by the SCOTUS. I knew Biden overstepped on that one. Medical workers vaccine mandate upheld. That has happened before and was likely to hold.

The court didn't like that the Biden Administration exempted employers with fewer than 100 employees, and I can understand their point. What difference should it make? The fact that they employ a lot of people doesn't necessarily mean that they're going to be working in close quarters with one another. A person working in a restaurant with a half dozen employees could be at more risk of contracting a disease than a long-haul truck driver that works for UPS.

"Although Congress has indisputably given OSHA the power to regulate occupational dangers, it has not given that agency the power to regulate public health more broadly," the court wrote. "Requiring the vaccination of 84 million Americans, selected simply because they work for employers with more than 100 employees, certainly falls in the latter category."

It really isn't a full repudiation of the employer mandate, just that they aren't being even handed about it as they and are holding employees that work for large employers to a higher standard than smaller ones for a rather arbitrary reason.

What should happen is that they should have done some sort of risk assessment to determine which individual companies are placing their employees at risk by requiring them to work with unvaccinated individuals and which are not. A good example is that they have determined by numerous studies that a work environment over a certain decibel level is hazardous to a person's hearing and therefore, the employer must mandate hearing protection.

That's why I don't let politics interfere with friendships. It isn't worth it. My friends are more valuable than my political opinions barring some crazy extremist crap.

Unfortunately I think HT was referring to losing friends to death, not politics. Covid kills. Sorry about your loss. Be safe, and yeah politics also end friendships. I have become more on the downlow about talking politics with friends/family. I completely avoid my anti-vax friends to avoid discussing such controversial topics.

RiverDog wrote:The court didn't like that the Biden Administration exempted employers with fewer than 100 employees, and I can understand their point. What difference should it make? The fact that they employ a lot of people doesn't necessarily mean that they're going to be working in close quarters with one another. A person working in a restaurant with a half dozen employees could be at more risk of contracting a disease than a long-haul truck driver that works for UPS.

"Although Congress has indisputably given OSHA the power to regulate occupational dangers, it has not given that agency the power to regulate public health more broadly," the court wrote. "Requiring the vaccination of 84 million Americans, selected simply because they work for employers with more than 100 employees, certainly falls in the latter category."

It really isn't a full repudiation of the employer mandate, just that they aren't being even handed about it as they and are holding employees that work for large employers to a higher standard than smaller ones for a rather arbitrary reason.

What should happen is that they should have done some sort of risk assessment to determine which individual companies are placing their employees at risk by requiring them to work with unvaccinated individuals and which are not. A good example is that they have determined by numerous studies that a work environment over a certain decibel level is hazardous to a person's hearing and therefore, the employer must mandate hearing protection.

The private employer mandate has not to my knowledge been employed before on a Federal level. It did not have legal precedence. Biden overstepped his executive power. If Congress passed such a mandate, then it might work. I think even if Biden would have included smaller employers, he would have been rebuffed. He's way overstepping his executive power.

They should do a far better risk assessment and targeted measures at this point. If the vaccine is working as well as touted, then focus it on the highest risk people. That should reduce hospitalizations sufficiently.

Two anti-vax people I know, both with comorbidities, recovered completely with no issues within a few days to a week with no hospitalizations. This has just further convinced them the vaccines are unnecessary. Focus vaccination is going to be far more effective at this point rather than trying to build this herd immunity which has happened nowhere in the world whether they had high vaccination rates or high infection rates. It appears as though herd immunity is unattainable and this virus mutates far too quickly, so there is only vaccination to reduce symptoms at this point, much like the flu shot.

We should start working under those assumptions at this point.

Just because it's the right thing to do doesn't make a legal thing to do.

Stream Hawk wrote:Unfortunately I think HT was referring to losing friends to death, not politics. Covid kills. Sorry about your loss. Be safe, and yeah politics also end friendships. I have become more on the downlow about talking politics with friends/family. I completely avoid my anti-vax friends to avoid discussing such controversial topics.

HT used to be one the hardest core conservatives on this forum. I think most of his friends are hardcore conservatives. If not for Trump, HT might still be a hardcore conservative. HT hates Trump and probably had to deal with tons of Trump loving friends driving him crazy with their pro-Trump talk. I think he lives in an area that is highly pro-Trump. For him in particular, this has probably been a rough time with the people he knows as they went from being on the same political side to opposing each other. I don't know HT personally, but I imagine he used to talk politics with at least some of his buddies. This whole Trump thing has put him in a conflicting position with more than a few friends and possibly family.

I've had to take more than a few insults and questioning of my politics for being against Trump. But I consider myself a person who likes to see through the BS. Trump has always been full of BS. He's the most brazen example of a man who looks down at the masses and sees them as nothing more than pawns for him to manipulate, yet for some reason people are ok with it because he has such a powerful salesmanship when working crowds. He's literally just a charismatic, self-centered salesman who can make people believe what he's selling them even if he doesn't personally believe in it. He's always been able to do that. That's why he's been able to build himself up on television and in the media.

I don't like that type of leader even if some of his policies are agreeable. Brazen manipulation is distasteful. People should be able to see through his trash. He gave an interview on a gold throne. He literally has people on his team who watch ratings and polls closely to tell him immediately how his "sales" are doing. He would switch his viewpoint if the "sales" weren't going well even if it isn't what is best for the country. I can't stomach that kind of rubbish.

c_hawkbob wrote:Just because it's the right thing to do doesn't make a legal thing to do.

How many tyrants have uttered such words. Even Trump thought he was doing the "right" thing for the nation.

I'm glad I live in a country where the "right" thing to do is not the decision of a single person and we have lots of checks and balances on such ideas.

We have way too many people who think they know what the "right" thing is and way too few that seem to think a person can't know what that is for themselves.

I don't guess any tyrant ever said that. Why would they? Tyrants don't have checks and balances. You need to revisit your word choice.

And I don't believe Trump ever did anything for anybody's benefit other than his own.

HT used to be one the hardest core conservatives on this forum. I think most of his friends are hardcore conservatives. If not for Trump, HT might still be a hardcore conservative. HT hates Trump and probably had to deal with tons of Trump loving friends driving him crazy with their pro-Trump talk. I think he lives in an area that is highly pro-Trump. For him in particular, this has probably been a rough time with the people he knows as they went from being on the same political side to opposing each other. I don't know HT personally, but I imagine he used to talk politics with at least some of his buddies. This whole Trump thing has put him in a conflicting position with more than a few friends and possibly family.

I've had to take more than a few insults and questioning of my politics for being against Trump. But I consider myself a person who likes to see through the BS. Trump has always been full of BS. He's the most brazen example of a man who looks down at the masses and sees them as nothing more than pawns for him to manipulate, yet for some reason people are ok with it because he has such a powerful salesmanship when working crowds. He's literally just a charismatic, self-centered salesman who can make people believe what he's selling them even if he doesn't personally believe in it. He's always been able to do that. That's why he's been able to build himself up on television and in the media.

I don't like that type of leader even if some of his policies are agreeable. Brazen manipulation is distasteful. People should be able to see through his trash. He gave an interview on a gold throne. He literally has people on his team who watch ratings and polls closely to tell him immediately how his "sales" are doing. He would switch his viewpoint if the "sales" weren't going well even if it isn't what is best for the country. I can't stomach that kind of rubbish.

Oh I didn't know any of the background on HT. Just that he and I agree on keeping Penny:) Agree with you, Asea, and Trump's BS! Though disclaimer I am a hardcore environmentalist liberal. A rational one at that.

Aseahawkfan wrote:The private employer mandate has not to my knowledge been employed before on a Federal level. It did not have legal precedence. Biden overstepped his executive power. If Congress passed such a mandate, then it might work. I think even if Biden would have included smaller employers, he would have been rebuffed. He's way overstepping his executive power.

The Feds may not have issued a vaccine mandate for employers, but they've mandated many other requirements that involves a trade off between workplace/public safety and personal privacy. For example, the DOT has mandated that any employer that operates commercial trucks subject their employees to random drug testing. Same with the FAA and commercial airline pilots.

Aseahawkfan wrote:They should do a far better risk assessment and targeted measures at this point. If the vaccine is working as well as touted, then focus it on the highest risk people. That should reduce hospitalizations sufficiently.

The risk assessment I was referring to was with regard to employment conditions. If you're a long haul trucker, there is very little chance of you spreading Covid while on the job. The problem is that it's very difficult and time consuming to quantify how many people a person comes within 6 feet of during the course of their work and how long they remain in contact with them, what the ventilation is like in their work space, and so on. OSHA was not created with the purpose of protecting workers during a pandemic.

Aseahawkfan wrote:Two anti-vax people I know, both with comorbidities, recovered completely with no issues within a few days to a week with no hospitalizations. This has just further convinced them the vaccines are unnecessary. Focus vaccination is going to be far more effective at this point rather than trying to build this herd immunity which has happened nowhere in the world whether they had high vaccination rates or high infection rates. It appears as though herd immunity is unattainable and this virus mutates far too quickly, so there is only vaccination to reduce symptoms at this point, much like the flu shot.

We should start working under those assumptions at this point.

The virus and vaccine performance are both changing. A year ago this month, it was very apparent that vaccines did an excellent job at protecting against infection and therefore the spread of the disease, so there was more justification for the mandates. Now the vaccines aren't as much about keeping people from getting infected as it is keeping them out of the hospitals.

If the government is going to mandate vaccines, they need to quit pussy footing around and just make a nation wide mandate for every man, woman, and child unless they have a medical reason why they can't take the shot. There's nothing in the Constitution the prohibits it and has been established as a precedent by the Supreme Court over 100 years ago.

Yep, the gov should just mandate the vaccine. I am so tired of this damn pandemic I can’t even describe it. And I know 30 or 40% of Americans will refuse. F it. Make it happen.

Otherwise impose a two week to four week complete shut down.

RiverDog wrote:The virus and vaccine performance are both changing. A year ago this month, it was very apparent that vaccines did an excellent job at protecting against infection and therefore the spread of the disease, so there was more justification for the mandates. Now the vaccines aren't as much about keeping people from getting infected as it is keeping them out of the hospitals.

If the government is going to mandate vaccines, they need to quit pussy footing around and just make a nation wide mandate for every man, woman, and child unless they have a medical reason why they can't take the shot. There's nothing in the Constitution the prohibits it and has been established as a precedent by the Supreme Court over 100 years ago.

The original press release, which I think even you pointed out to me, was that the vaccine was not 90 percent effective at preventing infection and they were not sure it would prevent infection, they were just sure it would prevent hospitalization and death at the efficacy rate. Which it did.

What do you mean? They have never had a Federal vaccine mandate that required all people to get vaccinated. Not sure why you think that occurred.

This is a rough history of vaccine mandates. The Supreme Court has upheld state rights in vaccine mandates and supported State vaccine mandates. The only Federal vaccine mandates it has upheld are generally schools and military. https://stacker.com/stories/21994/history-vaccine-mandates-us

You're asking for the Supreme Court to give the Federal government great authority than it has ever had to mandate vaccines and start that challenge in the Supreme Court. That's why I say Biden overstepped his authority. Such a mandate has never been imposed at the Federal level.

I'm interested to see if the Supreme Court further expands Federal power in regards to vaccine mandates and allows them to override the States. Should make for an interesting case because I fully expect Red States to sue and fight back. I wonder how far they will take it. I wonder if it will pretty much ensure the Democrats lose the Congress and the presidency in 2024 just to kill the vaccine mandates.

If Biden gets the mandates pushed through, I expect Republicans to fight back and use them as a means to take out the Democrats in 2022 and 2024 and kill the vaccine mandates that way.

It's going to get real interesting politically.

Stream Hawk wrote:Yep, the gov should just mandate the vaccine. I am so tired of this damn pandemic I can’t even describe it. And I know 30 or 40% of Americans will refuse. F it. Make it happen.

Otherwise impose a two week to four week complete shut down.

This has been tried in multiple nations. It hasn't ended the pandemic.

They've tried everything to end this whether Sweden's attempt at no lockdown end of the pandemic or Australia's extreme lockdown and vaccine mandates where they have camps the unvaccinated get sent to to quarantine or China's weld you in the house lockdowns or Israel's multiple booster shots.

Nothing anyone has done anywhere has ended the pandemic anywhere other than maybe New Zealand's close the country down, lockdown if there is even one case, and try to do that endlessly. We're going to have to learn to manage it. It's not that hard at this point.

South Korea has a huge vaccination rate and here is what they have going on. https://www.wsj.com/articles/highly-vaccinated-south-korea-cant-slow-down-covid-19-11639652626

We have seen similar data from other areas that the vaccine does not prevent infection or create herd immunity. It lowers hospitalizations and death rates.

This pandemic is unlikely to end any time soon. We're going to have to learn to live with it for the time being. Just another one of the many risks in the world.

https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/put-ya-lighters-study-finds-132414748.html

Maybe smoking weed will help.

Aseahawkfan wrote:The original press release, which I think even you pointed out to me, was that the vaccine was not 90 percent effective at preventing infection and they were not sure it would prevent infection, they were just sure it would prevent hospitalization and death at the efficacy rate. Which it did.

When they were first introduced in December of 2020, the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines had an efficacy of 95% from infection from the original strain. There were no deaths recorded in any of the breakthrough cases. It dropped to around 60-70% with the arrival of the Delta variant. I'm not sure what the efficacy against infection of the Omnicron variant is, but it would seem logical that it's somewhat less than 50%.

Edit: I just read in my local paper that the infection efficacy for a vaccinated person in the Tri Cities area is 43%, but they didn't give a percentage for those that have received a booster.

Aseahawkfan wrote:What do you mean? They have never had a Federal vaccine mandate that required all people to get vaccinated. Not sure why you think that occurred.

I never said that it was implemented on a nation wide scale. But for the purposes of Constitutional law and regarding violations of human rights, a government is a government, whether it's federal, state, or local jurisdiction. The Supreme Court gave the government of the State of Massachusetts the authority to mandate a vaccine. They would have to overturn that ruling if the federal government were to issue a nation wide mandate.

Aseahawkfan wrote:You're asking for the Supreme Court to give the Federal government great authority than it has ever had to mandate vaccines and start that challenge in the Supreme Court. That's why I say Biden overstepped his authority. Such a mandate has never been imposed at the Federal level.

If you read the decision, you'll see that the court was concerned about using OSHA as a vehicle to impose the mandate. Here's the majority opinion:

OSHA has never before imposed such a mandate. Nor has Congress. Indeed, although Congress has enacted significant legislation addressing the COVID–19 pandemic, it has declined to enact any measure similar to what OSHA has promulgated here,” the conservatives wrote in an unsigned opinion.

And as I said earlier, the majority expressed discomfort over Biden's 100 employee disclaimer. It was an arbitrary distinction.

What they're saying is that it's an issue that should be decided by Congress, not an arm of the Administration. They did not say that the government doesn't have the authority to issue a mandate. If Congress enacted a law mandating that everyone get vaccinated, I doubt that any court would stand in its way. Of course, the problem is that they could never get such a bill through Congress in a timely manner, and as rapidly as a virus can spread, time is of the essence. It's one of those post pandemic things that needs to be addressed once this pandemic is over.

Aseahawkfan wrote:I'm interested to see if the Supreme Court further expands Federal power in regards to vaccine mandates and allows them to override the States. Should make for an interesting case because I fully expect Red States to sue and fight back. I wonder how far they will take it. I wonder if it will pretty much ensure the Democrats lose the Congress and the presidency in 2024 just to kill the vaccine mandates.

If Biden gets the mandates pushed through, I expect Republicans to fight back and use them as a means to take out the Democrats in 2022 and 2024 and kill the vaccine mandates that way.

It's going to get real interesting politically.

Yeah, it's going to be a blood bath. Given the regression of the vaccines effectiveness against preventing the spread of the virus, I'm less enthusiastic of the mandates than I was 6 months ago.