HawkShack.com

I recently spent a few days in Portland, OR. It had been a few years since I had spent any amount of time there as I'm usually on the way to somewhere else or visiting family/friends that live in the suburbs. What I saw was simply appalling. The numbers of tents, blue tarps, and bombed out 30 year motor homes was astounding. I thought that Seattle was bad, but Portland seems to have a much worse problem. They're camped out in freeway interchanges, vacant lots, even in front of businesses and residential housing sections in rights of way for arterial streets and bus stops. There's garbage all over the place.

However, when I go back to the Midwest and east coast, I don't see half of the numbers of homeless encampments that I see in Seattle and Portland. In recent years, I've been to Indianapolis, Chicago, Cincinatti, Pittsburgh, Kansas City, Denver, Minneapolis, and I don't see the same degree of homeless that I see in the PNW. My brother-in-law drives for Uber in the Seattle area, and he tells me that when he picks up fares from out of town, they are simply astounded at the level of homelessness that we have here, so it can't just be my personal impression.

It's been relatively recent that the scale of this problem has exploded, since the turn of this century. Back in the 80's/90's, I used to meet up with some of my old college buddies, stay in a downtown hotel, take in a couple of Mariners games, and hit the bars in the Pioneer Square/downtown areas, but especially after the BLM riots and the city council's destruction of the police department, I don't spend an extra minute longer down there than I absolutely have to.

So what's the difference? A lot of people blame it on the liberal politicians that run Portland and Seattle, but there's other areas of the country that are ran by liberals that don't have the same problem. Could it be that the weather is a factor, two large cities that are in a relatively moderate climate that seldom get bitterly cold or scorching hot? Is it the lack of affordable housing? Or am I wrong, that the homeless problem is just as bad elsewhere as it is in the big cities of WA and OR?

North Hawk, if you check into this thread, what's it like in Vancouver, BC?

Some things we know:

1. New York made a big effort to reduce homelessness under multiple mayors Republican and Democrat.

2. Most Midwest states do not tolerate homelessness in their cities and the same with the south.

3. I work in Seattle. Most of the homeless fall into a few categories:

A. Temporary homeless: between shelters or jobs or something.

B. Mental issues. Unable to hold down a job or manage their life.

C. Drug addicts: This is the largest group in my experience. They seem to fall into B, but they fall under B because they've burnt their minds out with drugs I'd bet. Just spend their time wandering around looking for the next high begging for just enough money to get high again.

A and B I don't mind seeing helped.

C, I'm not sure how other places deal with this, but our drug laws in Washington are pathetic. No policing and just tolerance for terrible behavior by the homeless.

4. Laws in Seattle. I work in Seattle, so this is from direct experience, not hearsay or what's on the books.

A. There is no enforcement of homeless vagrancy in Seattle. There is a law during work hours Monday through Friday requiring all business buildings to have their front doors open meaning access to the building. Homeless people wander in all the time trying to hide in stairwells and bathrooms. We have to chase them out all the time.

B. After 1800 homeless people can camp on the streets of Seattle as long as they are not blocking doors. They camp all over the streets of Seattle, sometimes in the nooks and crannies and sometimes near heat vents. Under viaducts. in Alleys. They sleep and crap around these places. We find their crap near doors and alleys all the time. They literally drop their pants and take a dump near a door or on the street, then wander off. It's disgusting when doing an exterior building walk and finding this. They also camp at bus stops. Nothing the cops can do after hours as this is all legal per Seattle law.

C. Police have been quietly told not to arrest or interdict small drug crimes. You can use heroin or any drug on the streets of Seattle and the police are told not to do anything. It's not a law, but more of a directive from the Seattle government. We get lots of drug addicts wandering around high in Seattle.

D. Small property crime is also not stopped by the police. Homeless folks wander around breaking into cars all the time. The police don't do much about it. You park on the streets of Seattle, don't be surprised if someone busts your window in and steals your stuff. Leave nothing about of value in your car in Seattle. Cops will do nothing to the person stealing your stuff even if it is right in front of them as low cost property crime is not considering worth interdicting. This also includes shoplifting. Ever since California and Washington have created under 250 to 1000 dollars as a misdemeanor, you have seen an increase in group shoplifting. Homeless drug addicts organized by someone who can fence the goods and pay them, can get them to do a big group theft, sell the goods, and pay them a small amount. Due to the under a certain amount misdemeanor property crime law, group shoplifting carries very few legal penalties and is profitable.

E. You can beg on the streets of Seattle and Washington and no one interdicts it. They set up shop freeway intersections and outside every 7 11. I stopped shopping at 7 11 in Seattle due to this. It's just too annoying to have someone begging from you every time you walk in or out of a 7 11 or small store.


I'm not sure what the laws are like in other states. But this is what Washington State and specifically Seattle allows. It creates a great situation for homeless drug addicts. They can shoot up in the streets with no legal repercussions. They can sleep on the streets after 1800/ 6 pm. They can rob small amounts from the store with legal repercussions. They can go in and out of buildings during the day using bathrooms when they don't just take dumps or piss on the streets.

It's a real friendly legal environment for homeless drug addicts the hippy liberal politicians in Seattle don't intend to change unless the homeless drug addicts start camping on their lawn. But then they'll probably hire private security at the taxpayer's expense while telling us all we're supposed to feel bad for these folks living this way.

Everyone in Washington can literally see these people living this way. Query the cops who will tell you the laws and rules they've been told to follow in regards to the homeless drug addicts. And tell you straight up there is nothing they can do about it.

Not sure if it is this way in other places, but probably Oregon and definitely parts of California. I'm not even sure Democrat East Coast cities tolerate this crap on their streets.

So the local governments in the large cities back east and in the Midwest have much less tolerance for the problem? I'd be curious to know if they have a lower percentage of homelessness, just that it's not as visible as it is in Seattle and Portland.

I'm sure that there's a wide variety of reasons why there's so many homeless. One of the things you didn't mention is that there's a number of homeless that had/have viable options to live with a friend or relative but that they choose not to or they don't want to comply with the ground rules, usually something to do with drugs or alcohol.

One thing that we can say for sure is that it's not an economic problem, that there are plenty of jobs available, and has been for some time. The problem is that due to substance abuse issues, many of them are not employable, that they couldn't pass a drug test and even if they did, would not be able to maintain an acceptable attendance record.

I've heard people talk about how there isn't enough affordable housing, and that might be true for the Seattle or Portland area, but there are other areas around the region that have both affordable housing and available jobs, but it would entail living in an area like Othello, Hermiston, or Quincy and would have to work a graveyard shift, weekends, and of course, it would take them away from their friends and they'd have to be clean, free of drugs and alcohol. Most don't want to make that kind of sacrifice.

The homeless issue has made its way to Everett as well. My buddy lives in near 128th, there is a homeless encampment in the wooded area behind the Home Depot. They tend to stay there, get high, then wander out when they need money robbing cars in the parking lots and sometime breaking into garages and apartments.

My buddy watched a guy selling heroin out of his van in a Starbucks parking lot in Everett. He called the cops and they told him they don't interfere in small drug crimes unless there a violent or property crime occurring as well. So they refused to answer his report.

Washington State and likely Portland and California have become even more of a haven for drug addicts than they were before and we've always been kind of a haven for drug addicts.

People can claim the drug addicts are harmless all they want, given I know and have lived around them all my life I know they are not.

Pot users? Sure, mostly harmless.

Heroin, meth, and hard drug users, walking zombies that will do whatever they gotta do to get that high back. Constantly committing theft and the like. I will admit most of them are not violent in my experience, mostly just desperate thieves unable to hold down jobs and having to steal and sell what they steal for that next high. Just constantly getting high or trying to figure out a way to get money for their next high.

Aseahawkfan wrote:The homeless issue has made its way to Everett as well. My buddy lives in near 128th, there is a homeless encampment in the wooded area behind the Home Depot. They tend to stay there, get high, then wander out when they need money robbing cars in the parking lots and sometime breaking into garages and apartments.

My buddy watched a guy selling heroin out of his van in a Starbucks parking lot in Everett. He called the cops and they told him they don't interfere in small drug crimes unless there a violent or property crime occurring as well. So they refused to answer his report.

Washington State and likely Portland and California have become even more of a haven for drug addicts than they were before and we've always been kind of a haven for drug addicts.

People can claim the drug addicts are harmless all they want, given I know and have lived around them all my life I know they are not.

Pot users? Sure, mostly harmless.

Heroin, meth, and hard drug users, walking zombies that will do whatever they gotta do to get that high back. Constantly committing theft and the like. I will admit most of them are not violent in my experience, mostly just desperate thieves unable to hold down jobs and having to steal and sell what they steal for that next high. Just constantly getting high or trying to figure out a way to get money for their next high.

I heard a person say that if you really wanted to help out a panhandler, to get a bunch of zip lock baggies and fill them with a toothbrush, small tube of toothpaste, 8 oz bottle of water, a nutrition bar, and a phone number/address of a rescue mission or advocacy group. Except perhaps the nutrition bar, it would all end up becoming litter, but at least it would be an act that could relieve any sympatric emotions a person might have for their plight if they were simply 'down on their luck'.

For as long as I can remember, there's always been chronic homeless, just that we didn't call them that. We called them Hobos, tramps, or bums. They hung out mainly along the railroad tracks. Railroads used to not lock up their empty boxcars that were being hauled back to a location, "dead heading" as a trucker might refer to the process, but at some point, railroads started getting tired of cleaning up their mess and started locking the doors of empty box cars, plus they started going to more efficient containers, like hopper cars, cargo containers, piggy back trailers. In the wintertime, they used to hop southbound trains and disappear, returning the next spring.

It wasn't until sometime in the 80's when homelessness was given its name and identified as a nationwide problem. Liberals will cite actions taken by Ronald Reagan in his quest to cut the federal budget that closed some mental hospitals, eliminated housing subsidies for the poor, etc, and dumped people out on the streets. That might have been the cause of an increase in the numbers of homeless, but it didn't create the problem, nor did subsequent Democratic administrations rectify it once they regained power.

Here in my community, I don't see a lot of it as it's mainly limited to panhandlers sitting at the exit of big box store parking lots, usually with a cardboard sign reading something like "homeless vet, God Bless". I'm sure there are homeless encampments, but I just don't see them. We don't really have a large, traditional downtown area like most big cities, just lots of strip malls and shopping centers.

I don't have any good solutions except to provide them with a way out of their predicament if they want it. Subsidize churches and advocacy groups, no cost drug/alcohol treatment centers, hold job fairs that they can access (my former employer is desperate for entry level unskilled workers), subsidized housing, and so forth. Obviously, the strategies that the large, mostly liberal cities have been using isn't working.

RiverDog wrote:I heard a person say that if you really wanted to help out a panhandler, to get a bunch of zip lock baggies and fill them with a toothbrush, small tube of toothpaste, 8 oz bottle of water, a nutrition bar, and a phone number/address of a rescue mission or advocacy group. Except perhaps the nutrition bar, it would all end up becoming litter, but at least it would be an act that could relieve any sympatric emotions a person might have for their plight if they were simply 'down on their luck'.

For as long as I can remember, there's always been chronic homeless, just that we didn't call them that. We called them Hobos, tramps, or bums. They hung out mainly along the railroad tracks. Railroads used to not lock up their empty boxcars that were being hauled back to a location, "dead heading" as a trucker might refer to the process, but at some point, railroads started getting tired of cleaning up their mess and started locking the doors of empty box cars, plus they started going to more efficient containers, like hopper cars, cargo containers, piggy back trailers. In the wintertime, they used to hop southbound trains and disappear, returning the next spring.

It wasn't until sometime in the 80's when homelessness was given its name and identified as a nationwide problem. Liberals will cite actions taken by Ronald Reagan in his quest to cut the federal budget that closed some mental hospitals, eliminated housing subsidies for the poor, etc, and dumped people out on the streets. That might have been the cause of an increase in the numbers of homeless, but it didn't create the problem, nor did subsequent Democratic administrations rectify it once they regained power.

Here in my community, I don't see a lot of it as it's mainly limited to panhandlers sitting at the exit of big box store parking lots, usually with a cardboard sign reading something like "homeless vet, God Bless". I'm sure there are homeless encampments, but I just don't see them. We don't really have a large, traditional downtown area like most big cities, just lots of strip malls and shopping centers.

I don't have any good solutions except to provide them with a way out of their predicament if they want it. Subsidize churches and advocacy groups, no cost drug/alcohol treatment centers, hold job fairs that they can access (my former employer is desperate for entry level unskilled workers), subsidized housing, and so forth. Obviously, the strategies that the large, mostly liberal cities have been using isn't working.

That can help with A and B, but not C.

That's been the big change to me. Sure, we had homeless before. But not walking zombie drug addicts. People who are so addicted to whatever drug they're doing that they are like some kind of ravenous monster.

I literally had a couple come up to me as I was going to the bus, ask me for money, tell me they just attended a heroin recovery group which they did not look like they had attended, then ask me to give them 20 dollars. When I said I did not have it, they wanted me to go to an ATM which they would go to with me to get the money out. This was at 11 pm at night as I work swing shift. I could not believe it.

Then you come across these folks hitting you up for money eyes just spaced out. Dirty, no shame whatsoever begging for cash for that next high. You just dodge them.

Then the homeless people so high or burnt out, they just sit there on the street looking practically dead. Heads down or sleeping near the side of a building.

I've given a few people some cash or directions to a shelter if I know one that seemed ok. I had one old guy between shelters hit me up for some cash. I think I gave him 5 bucks so he could hop a bus or get something to eat. He at least looked clean and seemed sane. He wasn't a pock-faced, red eyed scuzzy looking drug zombie.

Also homeless can ride the bus for free, no questions asked in Washington State. That brings back another story. We had a barefoot homeless guy that looked diseased get on the bus. Had his stuff in bags. He was curled up in a seat looking dirty and gross. Everyone stayed away from this guy. I'm not sure was a drug addict, but I am sure he was nuts. You looked at this guy and understood why you didn't let plague carriers into your town in the olden days. This guy either didn't have the mental capacity to care for himself or had forgotten how to be a clean human being.

But mostly homeless folks sleep on the bus. Get on, take a seat, and crash out until the transit security or police show up to boot them off.

What seems to have changed from the past hobo life versus now is the drug induced mental deterioration of humans who abuse these substances. You stop caring about anything when you're on some of these drugs. You could literally murder someone and not even care or maybe even remember when on heroin or meth. Those are the drugs most scary to me because I've seen what these people do to themselves and others. There is absolutely nothing like watching someone descent down the meth or heroin path. Most scary thing I've seen in my life.

I've lived around pot users my entire life. Doesn't bother me in the slightest. Pot smokers can usually be decent folk. A little flighty in memory or giggle or irritable when they don't get their pot, but functional and minor changes to personality over time.

I've been around cocaine users and acid droppers (occasional). Cocaine users are like people who used some kind of super caffeine. Acid users are usually just a little trippy telling you about crazy s*** they see unless have a bad trip and talk about tracers or some sickeness.

But heroin, meth, and crack. It's like they sold their soul to the drug. They barely remember life. Their houses go from well kept to a shambles. Stuff goes missing in their house as they sell everything they have for money for the high. They can piss on the floor or themselves and not even notice. As they further spiral into the pit, they do stuff like pimp their wife or rent their place to other heroin addicts to sleep in for a hit. Then wake up and their place has been robbed for items to sell, but they don't care as long as the addict returns and gives them some heroin to pay for the robbery. Just crazy stuff I saw personally.

Like I said, I'm not going to make up stories of violence because I didn't see it. But property crime I saw a lot of with drug addicts as they ripped stuff off to sell to their dealers. I saw a lot of personal debasement. Just not caring about what they did to get that next high. Just letting themselves get filthy, no hygiene, and just engaging in sickening behaviors. A few of my friends fell into drugs and fortunately crawled out due to friends and family as well as not being there that long. The longer you're in, the harder it is to crawl out.

That stuff is terrible. It's why i seriously support forced rehab for the harder drugs like heroin, meth, and crack. People on those drugs are basically mind controlled. They've lost control of themselves and won't be able to exert any self control in the decision making process until they are detoxed. You don't really understand how much these drugs take someone over until you see the difference between a pot or cocaine user who can break the habit fairly easy and a heroin or meth addict who has descended into the pit of addiction only those drugs can take you to losing control of their lives and minds. It's terrible to see.

Reading some of the horror stories that you've witnessed makes me appreciate where I live. I have never lived in a big city. Oh, I spent a few months living in Spokane when I was finishing up my degree at EWU and I suppose you can call the Tri Cities area, with a combined population of about 250,000, a big city, but it's nothing on the scale of a Seattle or Portland.

My baggie suggestion is more for the conscious of the giver than it is for the welfare of the receiver. Nine chances out of ten it just gets tossed on the ground as garbage, but it does relive your inner soul of wondering if they truly are just down on their luck and need a helping hand. I wouldn't mind buying them a good meal at a restaurant if I knew that it would go to food and not booze or drugs.

Each year between Thanksgiving and Christmas, the wife and I donate some money to the Union Gospel Mission, Second Harvest, and the Salvation Army, all local charities, so I don't have to feel so smug and stuck up when I drive past a panhandler.

I don't know what the solution is, but it's clear that what they're doing in Seattle and Portland isn't working as the problem is much worse in those two cities than any I've visited elsewhere.

RiverDog wrote:Reading some of the horror stories that you've witnessed makes me appreciate where I live. I have never lived in a big city. Oh, I spent a few months living in Spokane when I was finishing up my degree at EWU and I suppose you can call the Tri Cities area, with a combined population of about 250,000, a big city, but it's nothing on the scale of a Seattle or Portland.

My baggie suggestion is more for the conscious of the giver than it is for the welfare of the receiver. Nine chances out of ten it just gets tossed on the ground as garbage, but it does relive your inner soul of wondering if they truly are just down on their luck and need a helping hand. I wouldn't mind buying them a good meal at a restaurant if I knew that it would go to food and not booze or drugs.

Each year between Thanksgiving and Christmas, the wife and I donate some money to the Union Gospel Mission, Second Harvest, and the Salvation Army, all local charities, so I don't have to feel so smug and stuck up when I drive past a panhandler.

I don't know what the solution is, but it's clear that what they're doing in Seattle and Portland isn't working as the problem is much worse in those two cities than any I've visited elsewhere.

I'm from the suburbs. I was shocked to see these things when I started working in Seattle.

The city of Seattle and the surrounding suburbs and rural areas seem like night and day differences.

Seattle has nearly constant protests. BLM were some of the biggest protests I'd seen, but so were the anti-Trump protests where we had a bunch of women walking around Seattle with pink hats that were supposed to be you know what's as a protest to "grab them by the...." Seattle has huge gay pride events. It was hilarious when a Somali guy came in to work looking very uncomfortable as he had to take the bus with a naked gay guy going to a gay pride event. Apparently during gay pride festivities, it's ok to do really crazy crap like walk around naked or the like. Every weekend Pike Place has drummers and outside entertainment. There are also bike riding transportation taxis about usually during the summer, like the kind you see Asia or the movies with a guy riding a biking taking people around Seattle. Then you've seen the Seahawk game day festivities. There are a lot of immigration protests outside the immigration building which I work by.

All of it very different from what I'm used to from the suburbs. It took some getting used to.

Then there is also a lot of rent controlled housing people live in. You apparently have to apply for it and make a lower income. Always seemed like it was paid for by the government to make sure the low income workers would be able to service their wealthy city people by living close to their low income jobs.

Nothing I've seen in Seattle makes city living look appealing. Other than walking along the pier or going to a game, not sure why you would want to be in the city. Big grey buildings, sidewalks, no greenery or not much, and too many damn people around in the shops and wandering the streets. Not my cup of tea. I don't like dodging homeless drug addicts. It's just annoying. I've literally had them come up to my car window when stopped at a traffic light begging for money because I work nights and have to drive around at night. I don't like someone coming up to my car window in the middle of the night. That makes me real antsy. At night there are certain streets you don't go on because of the number of homeless drug addicts active on the street. You probably have a 90% plus chance of getting robbed or harmed if you go into these areas at night when the drug zombies are standing around up and down the street. I think one of viaducts near Dearborn is one area. There is this street you have to go down near the I think Columbia Tower? I can't remember, but you had drug zombies up and down the street, you don't want stop for nothing when driving down that street. It's not well lighted and there are just tons of homeless standing outside and in groups doing whatever.

Cities can be very weird places. Suburbs are way more my style. Not so rural you go no stores around, but but still plenty of green places, parks to walk in, and stores nearby to get stuff. You don't see the level of homeless drug zombies around everywhere.

I've been to downtown Seattle recently, and I can honestly say that you're not exaggerating. If I stay overnight, I always stay either in Bellevue or out by the airport. It's a shame as Seattle used to be a really fun city, especially the waterfront and Pioneer Square district. There's always been the random panhandler and it wasn't unusual to see someone sleeping in the doorway of a recessed entrance to an office building, but never has there been the tents, blue tarps, and 30 year old motor homes like there is nowadays. It's out of control.

But I'm still at a loss to explain the difference between Seattle/Portland and the rest of the country. It can't just be the city governments as many, if not most, are ran by liberal Democrats. Horrible problem that I don't have a solution to.

RiverDog wrote:I've been to downtown Seattle recently, and I can honestly say that you're not exaggerating. If I stay overnight, I always stay either in Bellevue or out by the airport. It's a shame as Seattle used to be a really fun city, especially the waterfront and Pioneer Square district. There's always been the random panhandler and it wasn't unusual to see someone sleeping in the doorway of a recessed entrance to an office building, but never has there been the tents, blue tarps, and 30 year old motor homes like there is nowadays. It's out of control.

But I'm still at a loss to explain the difference between Seattle/Portland and the rest of the country. It can't just be the city governments as many, if not most, are ran by liberal Democrats. Horrible problem that I don't have a solution to.

I don't know what happened either. That is why I mostly think the heroin epidemic is what drives it.

I do not remember it like this when young, but I didn't come to the city a lot when young. My mother used to come to the city a lot when I was young, she doesn't remember it this way. She said Seattle was beautiful when I was a kid and she loved to go to the city and walk around going into to shops and walking along the pier. She doesn't remember homeless camps or all the graffiti or the crapping on the street.

Only real change seems to be population size which seems one reason. And the opiate and meth epidemic, which hit Washington real hard. Those kinds of drugs are the big difference from what I've seen in my life. Opiate and meth addictions are life destroying drug addictions in a way other drugs are not. The majority of homeless I see have the signs of those addictions. Life destroying drugs.

I see why they have been coming up with opiate alternatives and suing the drug companies for prescribing such drugs. It is why Seattle wants zones where these drug zombies can shoot up and why you see needles all over Seattle. You don't need a needle for pot or alcohol. Needles for for very specific drug types.

I know there are no drugs I've seen mess people up more than opiates and meth. Opiates includes heroin, oxy, fentanyl, and the like. Life destroying drugs with innately physically addicting properties like nothing else. After watching these drugs do their work on a friend as well as hearing the stories of other folks who had these drugs destroy them as well as having a nephew fall into the abyss of opiate addiction and listening a mother I worked with lose two sons to oxy addiction, I'm not even sure why anyone argues for decriminalizing and paying for people to do these drugs. I truly do not get it.

I'm completely onboard with legal pot. I'm even on board for decriminalizing some hallucinogens and cocaine. Seen plenty of folks use these with no real bad long-term results. They use some recreationally and are done. But hell no to opiates and meth. I have never seen any general usage of either of these that did not lead down a terrible path. There is one author I've seen trying to sell people that heroin can be used and you can be functional. But he's the rare case and I don't know what his personal life is like. I know the general user of these types of drugs risks a life destroying result more than any other drug I've ever seen. I had a buddy who had done pot most of his life, hallucinogens, cocaine, and even smoked a bit of crack. But he took heroin thinking it would be like other drugs, fell into he abyss in a way I've never seen.

Opiates are truly poison and should be restricted and controlled period, not given into for any reason. It should be a line drawn in the sand for drug interdiction. Opiates are no bueno for recreational use and should be very carefully prescribed.

RiverDog wrote:I've been to downtown Seattle recently, and I can honestly say that you're not exaggerating. If I stay overnight, I always stay either in Bellevue or out by the airport. It's a shame as Seattle used to be a really fun city, especially the waterfront and Pioneer Square district. There's always been the random panhandler and it wasn't unusual to see someone sleeping in the doorway of a recessed entrance to an office building, but never has there been the tents, blue tarps, and 30 year old motor homes like there is nowadays. It's out of control.

But I'm still at a loss to explain the difference between Seattle/Portland and the rest of the country. It can't just be the city governments as many, if not most, are ran by liberal Democrats. Horrible problem that I don't have a solution to.

Aseahawkfan wrote:I don't know what happened either. That is why I mostly think the heroin epidemic is what drives it.

I do not remember it like this when young, but I didn't come to the city a lot when young. My mother used to come to the city a lot when I was young, she doesn't remember it this way. She said Seattle was beautiful when I was a kid and she loved to go to the city and walk around going into to shops and walking along the pier. She doesn't remember homeless camps or all the graffiti or the crapping on the street.

Only real change seems to be population size which seems one reason. And the opiate and meth epidemic, which hit Washington real hard. Those kinds of drugs are the big difference from what I've seen in my life. Opiate and meth addictions are life destroying drug addictions in a way other drugs are not. The majority of homeless I see have the signs of those addictions. Life destroying drugs.

I see why they have been coming up with opiate alternatives and suing the drug companies for prescribing such drugs. It is why Seattle wants zones where these drug zombies can shoot up and why you see needles all over Seattle. You don't need a needle for pot or alcohol. Needles for for very specific drug types.

I know there are no drugs I've seen mess people up more than opiates and meth. Opiates includes heroin, oxy, fentanyl, and the like. Life destroying drugs with innately physically addicting properties like nothing else. After watching these drugs do their work on a friend as well as hearing the stories of other folks who had these drugs destroy them as well as having a nephew fall into the abyss of opiate addiction and listening a mother I worked with lose two sons to oxy addiction, I'm not even sure why anyone argues for decriminalizing and paying for people to do these drugs. I truly do not get it.

I'm completely onboard with legal pot. I'm even on board for decriminalizing some hallucinogens and cocaine. Seen plenty of folks use these with no real bad long-term results. They use some recreationally and are done. But hell no to opiates and meth. I have never seen any general usage of either of these that did not lead down a terrible path. There is one author I've seen trying to sell people that heroin can be used and you can be functional. But he's the rare case and I don't know what his personal life is like. I know the general user of these types of drugs risks a life destroying result more than any other drug I've ever seen. I had a buddy who had done pot most of his life, hallucinogens, cocaine, and even smoked a bit of crack. But he took heroin thinking it would be like other drugs, fell into he abyss in a way I've never seen.

Opiates are truly poison and should be restricted and controlled period, not given into for any reason. It should be a line drawn in the sand for drug interdiction. Opiates are no bueno for recreational use and should be very carefully prescribed.

Opiates have their place. I've had several surgeries, a hernia repair, rotator cuff repair, and a full knee replacement and was prescribed hydrocodone. They are very effective in dealing with post surgery pain. Even though I used them following my surgeries, I never felt 'high' or experienced a desire to take them. I guess that's the advantage of my being addicted to my 2 glasses of wine per night. When I expressed concern to my surgeon about using them, he said that people that get hooked on them typically have something else going on in their lives that contributes to their dependency on them. I guess I must have been rock solid stable because it didn't give me the slightest high.

I'm in basic agreement with you regarding drugs. Pot is nothing, didn't do a thing for me when I smoked it in college, much less unhealthy and destructive than alcohol or tobacco.

I do want to support outreach programs, state sponsored rehab facilities, etc. But what I won't do is give a panhandler money as I don't know how it's going to be spent. I'll buy a hungry man a meal but I'm not going to support his drug/alcohol habit.

RiverDog wrote:Opiates have their place. I've had several surgeries, a hernia repair, rotator cuff repair, and a full knee replacement and was prescribed hydrocodone. They are very effective in dealing with post surgery pain. Even though I used them following my surgeries, I never felt 'high' or experienced a desire to take them. I guess that's the advantage of my being addicted to my 2 glasses of wine per night. When I expressed concern to my surgeon about using them, he said that people that get hooked on them typically have something else going on in their lives that contributes to their dependency on them. I guess I must have been rock solid stable because it didn't give me the slightest high.

I'm in basic agreement with you regarding drugs. Pot is nothing, didn't do a thing for me when I smoked it in college, much less unhealthy and destructive than alcohol or tobacco.

I do want to support outreach programs, state sponsored rehab facilities, etc. But what I won't do is give a panhandler money as I don't know how it's going to be spent. I'll buy a hungry man a meal but I'm not going to support his drug/alcohol habit.

Abuse of legal opiates is the largest number of drug abusers in America. Glad you were ok after using them, but your doctor is crazy if he doesn't acknowledge the problem with legal opiates causing severe addiction. It's a documented fact. They don't need other problems. The innate addictive nature of opiates is well documented. It's why they have been working so hard to come up with opiate alternatives for use post-surgery.

I understand they are useful for some medical purposes. Which is why I'm more focused on interdicting recreational use which is usually acquired illegally, while the market and science are taking care of reducing reliance on opiates for legal uses such as post-operative pain.

RiverDog wrote:I recently spent a few days in Portland, OR. It had been a few years since I had spent any amount of time there as I'm usually on the way to somewhere else or visiting family/friends that live in the suburbs. What I saw was simply appalling. The numbers of tents, blue tarps, and bombed out 30 year motor homes was astounding. I thought that Seattle was bad, but Portland seems to have a much worse problem. They're camped out in freeway interchanges, vacant lots, even in front of businesses and residential housing sections in rights of way for arterial streets and bus stops. There's garbage all over the place.

However, when I go back to the Midwest and east coast, I don't see half of the numbers of homeless encampments that I see in Seattle and Portland. In recent years, I've been to Indianapolis, Chicago, Cincinatti, Pittsburgh, Kansas City, Denver, Minneapolis, and I don't see the same degree of homeless that I see in the PNW. My brother-in-law drives for Uber in the Seattle area, and he tells me that when he picks up fares from out of town, they are simply astounded at the level of homelessness that we have here, so it can't just be my personal impression.

It's been relatively recent that the scale of this problem has exploded, since the turn of this century. Back in the 80's/90's, I used to meet up with some of my old college buddies, stay in a downtown hotel, take in a couple of Mariners games, and hit the bars in the Pioneer Square/downtown areas, but especially after the BLM riots and the city council's destruction of the police department, I don't spend an extra minute longer down there than I absolutely have to.

So what's the difference? A lot of people blame it on the liberal politicians that run Portland and Seattle, but there's other areas of the country that are ran by liberals that don't have the same problem. Could it be that the weather is a factor, two large cities that are in a relatively moderate climate that seldom get bitterly cold or scorching hot? Is it the lack of affordable housing? Or am I wrong, that the homeless problem is just as bad elsewhere as it is in the big cities of WA and OR?

North Hawk, if you check into this thread, what's it like in Vancouver, BC?

It’s brutal up here, too. In Victoria we had the biggest park being used as a homeless encampment and there is
a continual group of people that are homeless. Some of it has to do with mental health, some with drugs, and some
can’t find affordable housing. The Provincial Government bought a number of hotels/motels and converted them
to temporary housing to get people off the street. It worked but the people with drug and mental health issues
(some having both) are still struggling. As well, food banks are doing a booming business unfortunately as the needs
are ever present.

Why the west coast? I don’t have a definitive answer, but the cost of housing is extremely high and the weather isn’t
as bad as the prairies or the east which might draw some. We are no California but we do have the mildest climate
north of the 49th - much like Seattle.

RiverDog wrote:So what's the difference? A lot of people blame it on the liberal politicians that run Portland and Seattle, but there's other areas of the country that are ran by liberals that don't have the same problem. Could it be that the weather is a factor, two large cities that are in a relatively moderate climate that seldom get bitterly cold or scorching hot? Is it the lack of affordable housing? Or am I wrong, that the homeless problem is just as bad elsewhere as it is in the big cities of WA and OR?

North Hawk, if you check into this thread, what's it like in Vancouver, BC?

NorthHawk wrote:It’s brutal up here, too. In Victoria we had the biggest park being used as a homeless encampment and there is
a continual group of people that are homeless. Some of it has to do with mental health, some with drugs, and some
can’t find affordable housing. The Provincial Government bought a number of hotels/motels and converted them
to temporary housing to get people off the street. It worked but the people with drug and mental health issues
(some having both) are still struggling. As well, food banks are doing a booming business unfortunately as the needs
are ever present.

Why the west coast? I don’t have a definitive answer, but the cost of housing is extremely high and the weather isn’t
as bad as the prairies or the east which might draw some. We are no California but we do have the mildest climate
north of the 49th - much like Seattle.

Thanks for responding. I did not realize that Canada, specifically Victoria, has a homeless problem on somewhat the same scale as what we have here on the west coast of the US. If you're seeing it in British Columbia as well, then climate must be at least part of the reason why I'm seeing it in Portland and Seattle but not in places like Chicago and Pittsburgh.

It's hard for me to accept that housing costs has a whole heck of a lot to do with it. If you can't afford to live in Seattle, then move somewhere else where it is cheaper. There are lots of jobs here in eastern Washington/eastern Oregon where housing costs are a fraction of what they are in the Seattle area. Most people have options besides living on the streets, like sharing rent with a friend or staying with a relative. And there is no doubt that it's not a jobs problem. Last week, we had the fewest jobless claims, 187,000, that we've had since 1969. Anyone that wants to work, can work. It is 100% a social problem, 0% an economic one.

RiverDog wrote:Thanks for responding. I did not realize that Canada, specifically Victoria, has a homeless problem on somewhat the same scale as what we have here on the west coast of the US. If you're seeing it in British Columbia as well, then climate must be at least part of the reason why I'm seeing it in Portland and Seattle but not in places like Chicago and Pittsburgh.

It's hard for me to accept that housing costs has a whole heck of a lot to do with it. If you can't afford to live in Seattle, then move somewhere else where it is cheaper. There are lots of jobs here in eastern Washington/eastern Oregon where housing costs are a fraction of what they are in the Seattle area. Most people have options besides living on the streets, like sharing rent with a friend or staying with a relative. And there is no doubt that it's not a jobs problem. Last week, we had the fewest jobless claims, 187,000, that we've had since 1969. Anyone that wants to work, can work. It is 100% a social problem, 0% an economic one.

This is why I believe it is a drug issue for most of them. When you go down the check list, there doesn't seem to be another reason.

1. Housing costs: High, but plenty of low wage workers have apartments. You can find an affordable apartment.

2. Jobs: Plenty of jobs around and have been for a while. Even you illustrated unemployment has been low for ages.

3. Climate: May be part of it, but Texas has a friendly climate as do many hot states like Florida. Do they have the same homelessness problem? I don't know. I would think the homeless would enjoy north Texas or places like Florida as well.

What do Canada, California, Portland, and Washington State have in common: a strong drug culture.

People don't realize this for some reason, but Canadians love their drugs, especially their weed. They have tons of weed producers and I think a few hallucinogen companies as well. There is even a great show about a couple of guys always getting into problems with drugs called Trailer Park Boys. It's hilarious. It highlights the Canadian weed culture.

I think a lot of places that have a very strong drug culture will create homelessness issues. You really don't care about being homeless as long as you can find that next high. In fact finding the next high is more important than having a place to live, enough food to eat, or what not.

All these places have an immense drug culture. My buddy's sister and her bf visit an Oregon retreat that caters to drug users. You basically go to this retreat and get to smoke weed and drop shrooms and other "natural" drugs as part of the recreation. I really wonder if many other states have a drug culture of we do up here in the Pacific Northwest from California, Oregon, Western Canada, and Washington State.

If you want to use drugs in America, there are few places better than the West Coast and specifically Oregon, Washington State, and California. Those states love their drugs.

Weed isn’t the issue up here it’s been heavily used for at least 50 years, but what has changed is the
introduction of fentanyl and carfentanyl. From what i’ve heard it’s mostly coming from China along
with crime syndicates. As far as home prices, there is a shortage of supply but the only studies I’ve
seen were paid for by the Real Estate and Construction industries who will benefit from a housing boom.
I haven’t heard of any studies examining what’s driving the demand. A house in Vancouver last year sold 3
times in 8 months with the first selling price of 4.5 million and the last price 6.2 M. Landlords are ratcheting
up rents where they can and that’s pushing some out as well.
It’s a bad situation.

Good point about homelessness not seeming to be as much of a visible problem in Texas and Florida. But I still think that climate, along with politics, does factor into the equation and could explain why we don't see as much of it in places like Chicago and Boston. The one difference between the west coast and Texas and Florida is politics as WA, OR, and CA are three of the most liberal states in the country while FL and TX are red states. It could be that the combination of weather and liberal politics is what makes it such a problem in Seattle and Portland.

I think it's quite obvious that drugs are by far the biggest single issue in homelessness. But I'm not ready to accept that drugs are any more prevalent on the west coast than it is in other areas of the country.

It sounds really Draconian and likely unconstitutional, but it's almost to the point where we're going to have to make it a crime live on the streets and public areas, and if they're caught on multiple occasions, that they be thrown into some sort of encampment or reservation such as they had when they re-located Japanese-Americans during WW2. Give them a choice: Either they can go to a government paid rehab or they can live in the encampment.

NorthHawk wrote:Weed isn’t the issue up here it’s been heavily used for at least 50 years, but what has changed is the
introduction of fentanyl and carfentanyl. From what i’ve heard it’s mostly coming from China along
with crime syndicates. As far as home prices, there is a shortage of supply but the only studies I’ve
seen were paid for by the Real Estate and Construction industries who will benefit from a housing boom.
I haven’t heard of any studies examining what’s driving the demand. A house in Vancouver last year sold 3
times in 8 months with the first selling price of 4.5 million and the last price 6.2 M. Landlords are ratcheting
up rents where they can and that’s pushing some out as well.
It’s a bad situation.

The heroin type drugs. That has coincided with the rise of homelessness in Washington State as well. Those particular drugs are zombification drugs. What it does to people, I have never seen in my life. Heroin and similar types of drugs has spread across the United States like crazy increasing overdoses and general life destruction like no drug I've ever seen. Maybe the crack epidemic is the closest I've noticed, but even during the crack epidemic I don't remember it being this bad in Washington State.

I should check Colorado. I think they have a strong drug culture. See if the opiates have invaded Colorado. I know I was visiting my folks in Arizona and they had commercials about how to deal with heroin and similar type drug overdoses. They have some medication that can apparently keep you alive if you overdose. They were selling it hard on Arizona radio.

We really need to hammer opiate and similar drug usage. It's tearing people's lives up in a way other drugs aren't capable of. Terrible addictive properties and they are barely functional while high. Gotta slow that down somehow. It's causing too many issues wherever such drugs take root.

Aseahawkfan wrote:The heroin type drugs. That has coincided with the rise of homelessness in Washington State as well. Those particular drugs are zombification drugs. What it does to people, I have never seen in my life. Heroin and similar types of drugs has spread across the United States like crazy increasing overdoses and general life destruction like no drug I've ever seen. Maybe the crack epidemic is the closest I've noticed, but even during the crack epidemic I don't remember it being this bad in Washington State.

I should check Colorado. I think they have a strong drug culture. See if the opiates have invaded Colorado. I know I was visiting my folks in Arizona and they had commercials about how to deal with heroin and similar type drug overdoses. They have some medication that can apparently keep you alive if you overdose. They were selling it hard on Arizona radio.

We really need to hammer opiate and similar drug usage. It's tearing people's lives up in a way other drugs aren't capable of. Terrible addictive properties and they are barely functional while high. Gotta slow that down somehow. It's causing too many issues wherever such drugs take root.

I don't disagree with any of that. I do think that the primary reason for homelessness is some type of substance abuse, whether it be drugs and/or alcohol. The other factor has to be the tolerance shown by state and local governments. They are allowing it to be an alternative lifestyle for those that don't want help or don't like their current living situation.

We spent a few days on the Oregon coast earlier this week and came back through Portland. They are camping in the grassy areas of freeway interchanges right along I-84. I don't know why the state puts up with that. It's a safety hazard, both for the occupants as well as motorists. In King County, the WSP had 161 reports of rock throwing incidents at passing cars on a freeway, some injuring motorists. At least Washington seems to have gotten the message and has started to displace the encampments in state right of ways.

The public needs to start getting fed up with it, pass a law that prohibits camping in any public area that isn't designated for it and start directing these folks to some sort of common area where they can camp without bothering anyone.

RiverDog wrote:I don't disagree with any of that. I do think that the primary reason for homelessness is some type of substance abuse, whether it be drugs and/or alcohol. The other factor has to be the tolerance shown by state and local governments. They are allowing it to be an alternative lifestyle for those that don't want help or don't like their current living situation.

We spent a few days on the Oregon coast earlier this week and came back through Portland. They are camping in the grassy areas of freeway interchanges right along I-84. I don't know why the state puts up with that. It's a safety hazard, both for the occupants as well as motorists. In King County, the WSP had 161 reports of rock throwing incidents at passing cars on a freeway, some injuring motorists. At least Washington seems to have gotten the message and has started to displace the encampments in state right of ways.

The public needs to start getting fed up with it, pass a law that prohibits camping in any public area that isn't designated for it and start directing these folks to some sort of common area where they can camp without bothering anyone.

When I see the homelessness problems, I completely understand why Trump is still a viable candidate and why people would still vote for him even as rotten as he is. The Democrats refuse to take steps to clean up cities and yet keep asking for more and more money for policies that don't work. They don't want to be harsh with anyone and it's creating a very enabling culture for negative behaviors that lead to homelessness. It just gets tiresome, especially when they use public funds to pay for private security while leaving the rest of us to protect ourselves while a the same time trying to limit or prohibit gun rights. The line of thought is nonsensical and doesn't line up with any logical solution to these types of issues. If you expect me to fend for myself when it comes to the personal security of my home, property, and person, then tell me. Don't pretend you're fixing problems while you're defunding the police, disempowering the police from handling these types of situations, and then denying me from owning weapons to protect myself. It makes zero sense to handle things this way.

Aseahawkfan wrote:When I see the homelessness problems, I completely understand why Trump is still a viable candidate and why people would still vote for him even as rotten as he is. The Democrats refuse to take steps to clean up cities and yet keep asking for more and more money for policies that don't work. They don't want to be harsh with anyone and it's creating a very enabling culture for negative behaviors that lead to homelessness. It just gets tiresome, especially when they use public funds to pay for private security while leaving the rest of us to protect ourselves while a the same time trying to limit or prohibit gun rights. The line of thought is nonsensical and doesn't line up with any logical solution to these types of issues. If you expect me to fend for myself when it comes to the personal security of my home, property, and person, then tell me. Don't pretend you're fixing problems while you're defunding the police, disempowering the police from handling these types of situations, and then denying me from owning weapons to protect myself. It makes zero sense to handle things this way.

That's exactly why I'll never be a reliable voter for Democratic candidates. They are full of bleeding heart liberals, ie "bedwetters". They refuse to hold people accountable for their actions, do not emphasize self help, blame the problem on big businesses like Amazon. The only time I vote for a Dem is when the R's can't produce a viable candidate, such as the 2020 WA governor's race when the R's trotted out that moonbat sheriff.

I don't see homelessness in the smaller cities. I see panhandlers sitting at the parking lot exits of big box stores like WalMart, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they're homeless. I don't see any tent cities. My daughter tells me that there's homeless in downtown Spokane, but it's not on anywhere near the scale of a city like Portland or Seattle. Liberal local and state governments are absolutely responsible for a large share of the homeless problem.

I get a kick out of the nonsensical arguments the left puts out to blame the homeless problem on someone or something else. In Seattle, they blamed Amazon for the lack of affordable housing, claiming that it's responsible for the homeless situation, yet in the same breath, they denounce Amazon for paying 'starvation wages.' If they are paying such low wages, how is it that their employees are scooping up expensive real estate to create a lack of affordable housing and force people into the streets? It's an oxymoronic argument.

Instead of blaming liberals for how homelessness is handled how bout you start looking at the issue honestly and address it's root causes. Homelessness isn't worse because Dems don't want to "clean it up" it's worse because republican financial policies over the last half century has taken more and more of the countries wealth and moves it up to the top and it just isn't trickling down the way Ronny told us it was going to. Instead the rich are getting (obscenely!) richer as the lower and middle classes are left with not only the greater burden of bearing the weight of the economy but fewer and fewer resources with which to deal with the issues such a top heavy economy creates.

c_hawkbob wrote:Instead of blaming liberals for how homelessness is handled how bout you start looking at the issue honestly and address it's root causes. Homelessness isn't worse because Dems don't want to "clean it up" it's worse because republican financial policies over the last half century has taken more and more of the countries wealth and moves it up to the top and it just isn't trickling down the way Ronny told us it was going to. Instead the rich are getting (obscenely!) richer as the lower and middle classes are left with not only the greater burden of bearing the weight of the economy but fewer and fewer resources with which to deal with the issues such a top heavy economy creates.

To which I say horsepucky!

The homeless problem as nothing to do with economics. It is strictly, almost exclusively, a social problem, mostly substance abuse. The only thing that you could possibly say about the Republicans having a role in it would be the failure to fund rehab facilities and make them accessible, but it's likely that it would be one of those leading a horse to water and trying to make it drink things. By coddling them, the liberals have made it an accepted norm, an alternative lifestyle, to be homeless. They have removed the shame that motivates many people from living that kind of life.

There may be some liability on private businesses as some of them require that applicants pass a drug test in which some employers, my ex employer for example, that can be unreasonably strict, but there are plenty of jobs available that pay well above minimum wage that don't require a drug test. They may not be in their desired location, may not be 9-5 with weekends off, and they might be asked to perform physically challenging tasks, but a healthy, viable adult that shows up for work and makes an average effort isn't going to be living on the streets.

Besides, since "Ronny" left office, Democrats have been in charge of the federal government just as often as Republicans, controlling the White House for 17 of the past 32 years. If the R's caused the problem, why didn't the Dems fix it when they were in power?

The worst homeless problems, by far, are in cities and states run by liberals, ie CA, OR, and WA, three of the bluest states in the Union. They own it.

You're intentionally blind. Only wanting to see what fits into your preconceived notion of the state of the world. This syphon up economic structure is just unsustainable and half the country just doesn't wanna even see it.

c_hawkbob wrote:You're intentionally blind. Only wanting to see what fits into your preconceived notion of the state of the world. This syphon up economic structure is just unsustainable and half the country just doesn't wanna even see it.

Intentionally blind? I beg your pardon! Income equity, which I think is what you are referring to as economic structure, has nothing to do with homelessness. Those people don't have incomes because the vast majority don't have jobs. If the topic was poverty, then you might have a point. But the subject of homelessness goes much deeper than poverty.

We have the best jobs outlook in 40 years, with way more job openings than unemployed, and it's spread across many industries with a wide variety of pay scales. I have never in my life seen as many want ads and now hiring signs. USPS sends me a card once every couple of months saying that they're hiring, and that's something that I've never seen happen in my 67 years on this planet. There is no excuse for a healthy, functioning adult not to have a job that could pay him/her enough to live in at least modest accommodations or find friends/relatives that they can share rent with. The problem is that most of them are not employable due to their substance abuse and any friends/relatives they might have likely don't want to live with a drug addict. I know that I wouldn't allow a family member of mine to do drugs in my house unless they agreed to seek help.

I've worked with people that have come to this country not knowing the language and having nothing more than the shirt on their backs, and they don't live on the streets. We can argue about who's responsible, Dems, R's, or the man in the moon, but there's no doubt in my mind that homelessness is 100% a social problem.

c_hawkbob wrote:You're intentionally blind. Only wanting to see what fits into your preconceived notion of the state of the world. This syphon up economic structure is just unsustainable and half the country just doesn't wanna even see it.

The same can be said for you.

Provide some answers for the following, why exactly are Democratic states like California, New York, and Washington D.C. amongst the worst states for the wealth gap if Republican policies are the issue?

https://www.statista.com/statistics/227249/greatest-gap-between-rich-and-poor-by-us-state/

Why precisely do the measures taken by Democrats often amount to little more than subsistence income with no upward mobility from their policies?

Yet people who practice conservative or traditional money management as encouraged by Republicans tend to lead to better outcomes for those that employ them? If you're saving, investing, and intelligently managing your money regardless of income level, you tend to have a better standard of living than people who survive on government programs and spend money to satisfy immediate wants.

My primary beef with Democrats is you don't even try to encourage intelligent financial management. You immediately default to blaming "Republican policies" and the wealthy. Yet the Democratic policies provide little more than subsistence living with no upward mobility. Just take your government cheese, barely get by, and live in perpetuity in poverty while successful Democrats practice conservative and intelligent money management to become successful themselves. Even as you watch Nancy Pelosi making millions investing while she sells Democrats on handouts, you keep on with your talk of the "bad wealthy people" and the top heavy economy. Michael Bloomberg is a billionaire due to investing and smart money management, yet he shills for votes selling the Democratic platform of blame the wealthy.

Working class folks have unprecedented access to financial markets at this point in time due to advancing technology. They can literally trade stocks, crypto, and bonds on their phones, on any PC, and have access to investing tools once only the wealthy monopolized, yet you 1960 Democrats are stuck in the past like sticks in the mud blaming the wealthy rather than saying, "Hey, we have this incredible technological access to the financial markets that only exceedingly wealthy folks used to have access to, maybe we should start to use it. Maybe schools should start teaching financial literacy as part of their curriculum in this modern information and digital age. Maybe that would do more to help the wealth gap than blaming these folks for creating companies that improve our standard of living. They're even letting us buy into these companies so we can increase our wealth as they increase their wealth. How about we do that instead?"

But nope, Elizabeth Warren and Bernie Sanders along with AOC still beating the drum of wealthy inequality as the world moves into a new era requiring new thinking by these two parties. Stuck in the 60s Democrats with the stuck in the 80s Republicans when we need younger, smarter leadership that is going to take all these tools and abilities we have now and forge a much more intelligently run economy with more flexibility and strong financial literacy required to improve the lives of Americans. I hope these younger folks start seeing that the world can be a very different and much better place if they stop listening to these two political parties and instead focus on building a better world using the tools that provide them unprecedented ability to coordinate, organize, and restructure the world into a much better place than these old people want them to live in.

That is why the next election, give me a younger Republican who isn't an anti-immigrant loon who wants to focus the nation on progress through use of technology and education instead of this "blame the wealthy" garbage with no consequences for negative behaviors like drug abuse, bad money management, and generally rotten life management. Until I see Democrats acknowledge that much of the problem the so called wealth gap is tied to bad money management, I can't vote for them. You have to fix negative behaviors or acknowledge their existence before you can have much of a real discussion on improving the standard of living of Americans. If Americans aren't going to expected to manage their money more intelligently, there is no amount of tax and spend economics that is going to fix bad money management.

RiverDog wrote:Intentionally blind? I beg your pardon! Income equity, which I think is what you are referring to as economic structure, has nothing to do with homelessness. Those people don't have incomes because the vast majority don't have jobs. If the topic was poverty, then you might have a point. But the subject of homelessness goes much deeper than poverty.

We have the best jobs outlook in 40 years, with way more job openings than unemployed, and it's spread across many industries with a wide variety of pay scales. I have never in my life seen as many want ads and now hiring signs. USPS sends me a card once every couple of months saying that they're hiring, and that's something that I've never seen happen in my 67 years on this planet. There is no excuse for a healthy, functioning adult not to have a job that could pay him/her enough to live in at least modest accommodations or find friends/relatives that they can share rent with. The problem is that most of them are not employable due to their substance abuse and any friends/relatives they might have likely don't want to live with a drug addict. I know that I wouldn't allow a family member of mine to do drugs in my house unless they agreed to seek help.

I've worked with people that have come to this country not knowing the language and having nothing more than the shirt on their backs, and they don't live on the streets. We can argue about who's responsible, Dems, R's, or the man in the moon, but there's no doubt in my mind that homelessness is 100% a social problem.

Homelessness is a social problem.

My uncle is a strong union Democrat. Big supporter of Joe Biden. He hates Trump. He's very much like C-bob and blames the Republicans for being against unions and stacking the deck in their favor. Just talked to my dad this weekend. This same uncle won't go to Everett or Seattle without a concealed weapon. That's how bad the crime and homeless problem has become in those two places in Washington State. It was never like that when I was young. Definitely never like that when he was young.

Most Democrats will just never admit their bad policies are causing this. Just like most Trump supporters will never admit Trump caused the January 6th riots and was a lying jackass.

They're both so damn annoying. All I want is sensible government. Just a simple lack of stupidity and overly emotional ridiculousness. I can't even get that from these two parties. All you get is two parties to invested in their philosophies they can't see how crazy they really look to normal people who want a well functioning, intelligently run government.

Aseahawkfan wrote:Homelessness is a social problem.

My uncle is a strong union Democrat. Big supporter of Joe Biden. He hates Trump. He's very much like C-bob and blames the Republicans for being against unions and stacking the deck in their favor. Just talked to my dad this weekend. This same uncle won't go to Everett or Seattle without a concealed weapon. That's how bad the crime and homeless problem has become in those two places in Washington State. It was never like that when I was young. Definitely never like that when he was young.

Most Democrats will just never admit their bad policies are causing this. Just like most Trump supporters will never admit Trump caused the January 6th riots and was a lying jackass.

They're both so damn annoying. All I want is sensible government. Just a simple lack of stupidity and overly emotional ridiculousness. I can't even get that from these two parties. All you get is two parties to invested in their philosophies they can't see how crazy they really look to normal people who want a well functioning, intelligently run government.

Do you remember toilets for the homeless? The City of Seattle spent $5 million on 5 high tech, self cleaning toilets and stationed them near homeless encampments:

The last time officials addressed the issue (of public restrooms for homeless), they wound up with a mess. The city spent $5 million on five high-tech, self-cleaning toilets for Pioneer Square and other neighborhoods in 2003, only to have the units become refuges for drug use, prostitution and hanky-panky. They were sold on eBay in 2008 for $2,500 each.

https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-ne ... let-quest/

It's an example of what I was saying earlier. Liberals/Democrats coddle the homeless.

RiverDog wrote:Do you remember toilets for the homeless? The City of Seattle spent $5 million on 5 high tech, self cleaning toilets and stationed them near homeless encampments:

The last time officials addressed the issue (of public restrooms for homeless), they wound up with a mess. The city spent $5 million on five high-tech, self-cleaning toilets for Pioneer Square and other neighborhoods in 2003, only to have the units become refuges for drug use, prostitution and hanky-panky. They were sold on eBay in 2008 for $2,500 each.

https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-ne ... let-quest/

It's an example of what I was saying earlier. Liberals/Democrats coddle the homeless.

I don't remember those.

I just know the laws I know to be true that I have to deal with in my job like letting homeless people camp on the streets after 1800, letting homeless people enter buildings during the day by having main access doors open, having property crime a misdemeanor if under a ridiculously high amount, letting drug users shoot up on the streets, and generally not doing anything about homeless encampments when they know these people wander around breaking into cars and stealing to pay for their drug habits. Then buying hotels and other places to provide them free housing they just camp at and destroy because Democrats like c-bob have no standards for behavior required for supporting Democrats.

These are not the polices of politicians with any standard of behavior. It's the policies of people who are either bleeding hearts or just want to sweep all the homeless into some area they hope doesn't cause problems. There's no expectation these people get cleaned up and get a job in the strongest job market in decades. Just sweep them all away and hide the dirty laundry.

I don't know how you take Democrats and liberals seriously when they don't admit that a Mayor of major American city and a governor allowing citizens to forcibly push out police officers from the East Precinct, take over six city blocks, and declare their own laws while forcing negotiations for their demands like terrorists is acceptable behavior. They don't admit that behavior is wrong. Democrats just make excuses for rotten behavior because they have some secret squirrel chart that Trump did worse on January 6th so this other rotten behavior is what...justified? What horse crap.

None of these people in either of these parties seem willing to call their parties out for scumbag crap. Only a handful of Republicans are calling out Trump for his scumbag behavior, though at least the ones that could do anything stood against him in trying to overturn the election. None of these Democrats are going to admit their polices aren't working and they need to assess the drug problem and how to fix it as these are non-functional drug addicts filling our streets.

I get it. The War on Drugs didn't work. But there has to be something better than capitulation to drug addicts where we take tax money to pay for their drugs and provide them homes so they can shoot up and never change hoping they just go away and not bother working citizens. That is just garbage that I should have to pay for that when I wouldn't shell out a dime for drugs for personal use. My tax money is not to pay for drugs and capitulation to drugs addicts. I'd rather drive them out with violence if I have the option. I don't cater to drug-addled jackasses in my personal life and the government shouldn't force me to by taking taxes and giving it to them.

If I don't see a plan that includes forcing drugs addicts to clean up their act and get a job to pay some of these taxes wasted on them back, then I want a different plan for dealing with them that includes driving them out of cities by force.

Liberals/Democrats coddle the homeless.

I'll own that. Like to see Republicans own that their attitude is decidedly un-Christian and stop trying to portray themselves as the righteous side. Feeding the homeless is a basic tenet of Christianity.

RiverDog wrote:Liberals/Democrats coddle the homeless.

c_hawkbob wrote:I'll own that. Like to see Republicans own that their attitude is decidedly un-Christian and stop trying to portray themselves as the righteous side. Feeding the homeless is a basic tenet of Christianity.

I'm what one would consider a Republican, and I feed the homeless. Each year between Thanksgiving and Christmas, the wife and I give $600 (the max the IRS allows as a tax deduction) to local charitable organizations that serve the needy and provide services for the homeless that want to help themselves, organizations like 2nd Harvest, the Union Gospel Mission, and the Salvation Army. That's $600 more than what most people give. As the saying goes, money talks, bullchit walks. Is my attitude un-Christain? Am I trying to portray myself as on the righteous side?

However, I will not give a nickel to a panhandler as all he'll use it for is to buy drugs or alcohol. That's enabling them. I'm all for providing facilities and resources to help those that want to get out of the cycle, funding for affordable housing, grants for churches and private organizations to provide food and shelter, and so on. But I want the cops to clear them out of the streets, out of the parks, and out of public right of ways. They are a nuisance, and in some cases, a safety hazard. That's what the Dems/libs in Seattle and Portland aren't doing, and what I meant by coddling the homeless.

I just saw this on my news feed. It illustrates what I've been arguing.

SEATTLE — A neighbor had to help drag an intruder out of a family's home after the man had smashed his way inside. The break-in is just the latest in a string of sometimes violent crimes that has people in Georgetown calling for change.

Clint Berquist had just started a bedtime story for his son on Sunday night when he heard a noise downstairs and got up to check.“I got a little more than halfway down the stairs and I hear glass break and I'm like, OK it’s on now,” Berquist said.

A man had shattered a the front of the house and was clawing his way inside. Berquist tried to push him back out but the man wiggled past, all while screaming things like “they’re trying to kill me.”

Berquist tried to deescalate the situation, telling the man that police had been called and he could wait for help on the front porch. Just as he opened the door to get the intruder back outside, the man pushed past Berquist and bolted for the stairs.

Berquist said the man seemed to have mental issues and he instantly feared for his wife and child on the upper floor.

“So he starts running upstairs and I tackle him,” Berquist said. “I'm trying to get ahold of him. I grabbed ahold of his shirt but I ripped his shirt off. He's completely squirrely."

A neighbor heard the commotion and jumped in to help. A home security camera captured footage as that neighbor dragged the intruder by his feet back outside the house. Berquist was right behind to open the front gate.

The man ran off but police found him down the street trying to force his way into another house. Officers then took him into custody.

In a separate incident, Ed Ball said he saw two men attacking each other at a homeless camp at Corson Ave. S and S Orcas St. “Two gentlemen were fighting with each other with weapons, a machete and a steel pipe hammer,” Ball said. “I saw them swinging. They were swinging at each other, and one actually hit the other in the back of the head."

Medics arrived and treated the one man while officers detained several others but no one was arrested. Police said the people they stopped were not suspects in the assault.

Ball said the crime and homeless encampments are impacting neighbors every day but he feels like the problems in Georgetown aren't a priority for city hall.

“There's no accountability,” he said, “so we wish there would be more accountability and a little more presence."

https://komonews.com/news/local/georget ... u2SeFwm0ls

And what's the liberals/Dem's response? Let's defund the police. It's their policies that has promoted this kind of activity.

Extreme liberal policies have caused the current homeless issues that are rampant in Washington, Oregon, and California. Policies who's main focus is on 'equity' and a lack of accountability have pushed aside laws that once kept the issue under control. Laws focused on vagrancy, drugs, vandalism, shoplifting, public defecation, assault etc. are not prosecuted and allow these people to stay on the street, abuse drugs, shoplift, and terrorize the community. I do believe that most liberals believe they have the best intentions in mind, that they only want to help the homeless. Give them a warm place to live and needles/drugs that won't kill them and they will turn their lives around. The reality is that in every place they have given homeless people a state/city sponsored bed and tried to crack down on drug use have failed because the homeless leave. The people in authority are trying to fix a drug/mental health issue with homeless policies and it is failing miserably. Fix the drug/mental health issues and you will fix 80-90% of homelessness.

If you haven't watched this before I would spend an hour watching it. It is very well done.
"Seattle is Dying"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpAi70WWBlw


They followed it up with:

"The Fight for the Soul of Seattle"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fboAEN5VzYM

Public defecation. You know if I had not seen and experienced this with my own eyes, I wouldn't have believed it. We have a loading dock and alley door where I work and the homeless take dumps a these areas on occasion. I can only surmise this is some kind of joke to them to take a dump where they know people are going to work. It's so disgusting when it happens. It doesn't happen often, maybe 5 or 6 times a year. But when it does, it's just gross. You open the alley door or loading dock, there is a dump laying there stinking the place up. So gross. Why would someone do this? I can't imagine debasing myself to this degree.

I never really viewed Republicans as righteous. I don't listen to the Republican talking heads. They're just a bunch of smarmy, sarcastic asses who make themselves seem like the smartest kid in the room while taking shots at the Democrats. They get paid for doing that. Same as Jon Stewart made a career of making fun of Republicans and government in general and now Trevor Noah and John Oliver do the same. I don't like watching people who get paid to make light of fairly serious social issues and frame them in a toxic manner that encourages division and starts at the point where you're making the other side look stupid creating a bad negotiating or discussion position early on for something that might affect people's lives. That's not a great starting point slinging insults at each other out of the gate. That's why I never liked Trump.

I much prefer a lucid conversation starting at we have this issue and how can we fix it and what is causing it without attributing blame or trying to score political talking points. Problems have to be fixed, not exacerbated.

I feel at this point we don't even really need political parties. They've outlived their usefulness. They spend most of their time arguing and making the other side seem different to acquire votes while not actually doing much different. They seem to be fodder for political media to stir up their bases. It's like modern politicians are actors there so political media can make money.

mykc14 wrote:Extreme liberal policies have caused the current homeless issues that are rampant in Washington, Oregon, and California. Policies who's main focus is on 'equity' and a lack of accountability have pushed aside laws that once kept the issue under control. Laws focused on vagrancy, drugs, vandalism, shoplifting, public defecation, assault etc. are not prosecuted and allow these people to stay on the street, abuse drugs, shoplift, and terrorize the community. I do believe that most liberals believe they have the best intentions in mind, that they only want to help the homeless. Give them a warm place to live and needles/drugs that won't kill them and they will turn their lives around. The reality is that in every place they have given homeless people a state/city sponsored bed and tried to crack down on drug use have failed because the homeless leave. The people in authority are trying to fix a drug/mental health issue with homeless policies and it is failing miserably. Fix the drug/mental health issues and you will fix 80-90% of homelessness.

If you haven't watched this before I would spend an hour watching it. It is very well done.
"Seattle is Dying"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpAi70WWBlw


They followed it up with:

"The Fight for the Soul of Seattle"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fboAEN5VzYM

Well put. I'm in full agreement. Fixing the drugs/mental health problem is the solution to a lot of problems that dogs society, whether it be domestic violence (think Richard Sherman), workplace job performance...attendance was by far our most common termination cause, and that was primarily driven by alcohol or drug use, and all crimes in general. Fix the drug/alcohol problem and all of a sudden we're living in a Utopian society.

I saw "Seattle is Dying", but not the follow-up. Thanks for the link.

Aseahawkfan wrote:Public defecation. You know if I had not seen and experienced this with my own eyes, I wouldn't have believed it. We have a loading dock and alley door where I work and the homeless take dumps a these areas on occasion. I can only surmise this is some kind of joke to them to take a dump where they know people are going to work. It's so disgusting when it happens. It doesn't happen often, maybe 5 or 6 times a year. But when it does, it's just gross. You open the alley door or loading dock, there is a dump laying there stinking the place up. So gross. Why would someone do this? I can't imagine debasing myself to this degree.

That's about as gross, subhuman of a behavior that one can imagine.

When I used to do white water rafting trips in three or four 6 man rafts in the summers with a group of guys, we'd float down the lower Salmon River, a very isolated area with not so much as a car tire to serve as a toilet, we used to take along with us the '$hit bucket', a 5 gallon pail with a board cut to fit the top of the bucket and a lid and some plastic wrap to seal it so it wouldn't smell or leak. The loser of the previous night's card game had to carry the bucket in their boat the next day.

Rather than the $1M toilets for the homeless that the liberals came up with, perhaps the City of Seattle can use our red neck, low tech solution and start handing out something similar.

A lot of these problems stem from the drug issue and the drug issue got real bad following the opioid crisis where normal people were fed opioids by doctors who were
told that they weren't addictive. As it turns out they are some of the most highly addictive substances available. Now there is a significant population of the homeless
that had steady jobs and families but were hurt in accidents or sports and were prescribed these pills to control the pain. Now thousands are dead and many more are
hopelessly addicted and when people reach that level, crap pails or public toilets don't make a lot of difference.

NorthHawk wrote:A lot of these problems stem from the drug issue and the drug issue got real bad following the opioid crisis where normal people were fed opioids by doctors who were
told that they weren't addictive. As it turns out they are some of the most highly addictive substances available. Now there is a significant population of the homeless
that had steady jobs and families but were hurt in accidents or sports and were prescribed these pills to control the pain. Now thousands are dead and many more are
hopelessly addicted and when people reach that level, crap pails or public toilets don't make a lot of difference.

That's certainly part of it, but the #1 substance abuse problem for the homeless is alcohol:

Alcohol is the most common substance of abuse used by individuals who are homeless. Alcohol is a top substance of abuse for the homeless population due to it being easily available and cheap to buy. Mini bottles of alcohol can be found in liquor stores and sometimes in convenience stores for as little as $1.50.

Other drugs that are commonly sold on the street, like heroin, cocaine, and methamphetamine, can also be significant drugs of abuse. Injection drug use, like that of heroin, cocaine, and meth, contributes significantly to homeless individuals with HIV and AIDS, and hepatitis. The use of shared needles, along with the high that these drugs give, usually results in unsafe sex and other risky behaviors.

Other drugs abused by homeless people might also include synthetic cannabinoids, such as “spice.” While it may be thought of as a legal alternative to marijuana and easily obtained in shady convenience stores, spice is highly addictive and can cause adverse side effects, like rapid heart rate, suicidal thoughts, and overdose. Death is a possibility also. Tobacco use disorders may be common among homeless individuals.

https://areterecovery.com/treatment/dru ... -homeless/

I'm also seeing estimates that about 30% of homeless suffer from mental illness.

There's also the issue of which came first, the chicken or the egg? Do people become homeless because they abused drugs/alcohol or did they become addicted as a result of their becoming homeless and started abusing alcohol/drugs in order to cope with their situation? What's the root cause?

Alcohol has always been a part of the homeless community but the last couple of
decades or more the homeless problem has really increased. Part of the issue up here is
we closed down many of the mental institutions with the Government of the day
saying they would treat most as outpatients, however they never followed through
on that promise. Now we have lots of people not getting the help they need.
Some compound the problem with drugs making the situation worse for them. Of
course these people aren’t employable and no money means no home.

I guess in all there are a myriad of things that are causes and some combine with
others to make the problem worse but up here the root cause was when the
Government decided that lowering taxes was the way to go as they clamped
down on expenditures to balance the budgets. This meant fewer services
for those struggling with life and fewer resources to deal with emerging problems
or problematic trends. Now it’s a mess without a clear way out.