HawkShack.com

I never though I'd see it, but finally the Democrats have stuck one of these crimes on Trump. He is found guilty in New York on hush money violations. What comes next? We shall see.

Will we see press conferences from a cell or Trump having to wear an ankle bracelet at the White House? How good will SNL be if Trump is in jail?

Looks like we were posting about it at the same time, and you beat me by 5 minutes, so we'll use your thread. Here's a copy and paste of my initial reaction from the other thread:

A few minutes ago, I came out of my exercise area where I've been rehabbing a knee on which I had surgery. I was peddling on a stationary recumbent bike and when my 20 minutes were up, I came out to the living room and my wife said "well, you were wrong!" I thought that she was talking about my conclusion of the Mariners' game we had on when I gave up on them when I went to exercise as going into the bottom of the 9th, they were trailing 4-0 and said "you mean that they won?" "No," she said. "They found Trump guilty on all 34 counts!"

I never thought that they'd ever be able to get an impartial jury to agree on the innocence or guilt of such a controversial and divisive figure like Donald Trump, that at least one juror would either abstain or vote to acquit. So chalk it up, River Dog was wrong.

Dems been talking about it for years. They have spent millions of dollars prosecuting Trump. They are finally drawing blood during an election year, likely as planned. What will the Republicans do to retaliate? I hear grumblings of Civil War. We'll see if the Republicans have the juice to prepare and push it if that is how strongly they feel about ruining their own nation for a worm like Trump.

Some of my Republicans buddies are claiming the Dems will try to prosecute every future Republican candidate to hold power and I don't agree. I think Trump is a uniquely idiotic man who thought he could do whatever wanted in D.C. and future Republican presidents who know how to manage power in Washington D.C. will have little trouble in the future from lawsuits.

Trump started fights with everyone. Lost support from key powerful Republicans and is now reaping the seeds he has sowed with his alienation and stupid, unnecessary pugnaciousness.

"The Democrats" didn't do a damn thing, this is 100% Trumps doing.

c_hawkbob wrote:"The Democrats" didn't do a damn thing, this is 100% Trumps doing.

The prosecutor, Alvin Bragg, the man who not only brought charges but elevated them from a misdemeanor to a felony, is a registered Democrat. He ran for Manhattan DA as a Democrat. The trial also occurred in as blue of a state and city as they come, a huge consideration when it comes to jury selection. One can argue that Trump was playing against a stacked deck. The Democrats did plenty.

c_hawkbob wrote:"The Democrats" didn't do a damn thing, this is 100% Trumps doing.

BS. The only argument this is Trump's doing is his starting a fight with the Democrats and refusing to play ball thus inviting an attack he thought he could fight off.

Trump engaged in political warfare with the Democrats and they stuck something on him. This was a political trial concocted by the Democrats. Hush money to prostitutes is common in politics. No one usually cares and it usually gets swept by both parties. But Trump picked a fight and the New York Democrats took up the fight likely fueled by Clinton connections and stuck something on him. This was driven by the Democrats all the way. Most Americans don't give a flying crap about politicians paying off prostitutes and women they had affairs with to be quiet.

Even Robert Kraft, an NFL owner, was able to sweep away a prostitution charge. But not Trump because he pissed off a bunch of Democrats and Republicans with his behavior and lost his political protection.

I've seen more celebrities, sports stars, politicians, and rich people sweep this kind of crap under the carpet more times than I can count. If not for the Democrats pushing any charges they could find, this would have been swept under the carpet.

This was nothing but a politically driven trial to take down an odious man who has pissed off the Democratic establishment.

So if that's what you mean by "Trump did it to himself", then sure, he did it to himself. As far as the actual charges and crimes, it's a big joke that most politicians handle behind the scenes and gets swept under the carpet. The only reason Trump wasn't able to do this is because he pissed off the Democrats who use their pull in New York to stick these charges on him.

River_Dog wrote:The prosecutor, Alvin Bragg, the man who not only brought charges but elevated them from a misdemeanor to a felony, is a registered Democrat. He ran for Manhattan DA as a Democrat. The trial also occurred in as blue of a state and city as they come, a huge consideration when it comes to jury selection. One can argue that Trump was playing against a stacked deck. The Democrats did plenty.

Fact is Trump is involved in political warfare and he lost this battle, even though time will tell if he lost the war as he can still win the presidency from jail as you have stated so many times.

My ideal outcome is Trump wins while in jail and governs from jail. The Republicans look incredibly stupid for voting in a president governing from jail. The Democrats look even dumber for losing to a president who is in jail.

If that does not provide enough of a wake up call to make America go, "What the hell are we doing and why do we have a two party system?", I don't know what will. If the Democrats lose to a guy they stuck charges and put in jail, my goodness that will look absolutely terrible.

If Trump governs from jail, I can't wait to see SNL next season. It will be hilarious.

And I can say I've seen the first president of African descent, the fall of The Berlin Wall and Communist Russia, the rise of the internet and PC, many amazing movies, and a president governing from jail. This historical period will make for some great movies later, maybe after we're all dead they can make it look much cooler than it is to live watching this idiocy.

I’m as anti Trump as they come, but his asshole supporters appear to be giving him even more support now. I’ve lost all hope for this country following the insurrection. This ahole BLATANTLY LIED about election results, managed to gain more sheep supporters with those lies, and now even more from this conviction.

Long story short, US presidential politics are entering a terrifying era. In reality the only solution is to amend the Constitution and prevent convicted felons from holding office.

Stream Hawk wrote:I’m as anti Trump as they come, but his asshole supporters appear to be giving him even more support now. I’ve lost all hope for this country following the insurrection. This ahole BLATANTLY LIED about election results, managed to gain more sheep supporters with those lies, and now even more from this conviction.

Long story short, US presidential politics are entering a terrifying era. In reality the only solution is to amend the Constitution and prevent convicted felons from holding office.

I know mostly conservatives. They view this Trump trial as nothing more than politically driven, which it is. They have no intention of changing their support due to a politically driven trial when there are obviously Democrats like Bill Clinton who did the same thing as Trump in sleeping around and using fixers and pressure to silence the individuals who spoke out about Clinton's infidelity up to and including Bill Clinton himself committing blatant perjury on the stand on T.V. claiming he never had relations with Monica Lewinski, then nothing happening to him. Now to them this just seems like a very unfair attack on Trump for something politicians do all the time as there is no consistency in the American justice system, especially when it comes to the wealthy and powerful.

So not sure why Trump supporters should change their support over this. Hush money to women and hiding it is as common in politics as lying. All this looks like is Democrats using whatever political power they have to attack Trump.

There is no real motivation for either party to switch support for trials like this. Democrats and Republicans don't want a consistent justice system. They both overlook the criminality of their candidates and this is where it has led us.

Until both parties stop voting in these morally questionable people, this is not stopping and may just get worse.

Aseahawkfan wrote: But Trump picked a fight and the New York Democrats took up the fight likely fueled by Clinton connections

Lol, talk about reaching, and I thought you spoke in facts. Well the actual facts in this case are what doomed Trump. Paying for sex with a playboy model, or porn star isn't the crime here, albeit it makes the case sound more juicy and draws headlines. It's probably the only way he could get laid to be honest(just my opinion). The crime here is falsifying records to cover up money, and his signature is on those cheques issued to David Pecker, for the catch and kill on Karen McDougal. The Trump Tower meeting between Pecker and Cohen validates the purpose of these funds. I can on and on, but the "facts" are what they are and Trump now needs your money to keep campaigning. You can draw your conclusion this was a democratic political motive to convict Trump, well that is fine to feel that way, but facts are facts and he got caught.

Aseahawkfan wrote: But Trump picked a fight and the New York Democrats took up the fight likely fueled by Clinton connections

4XPIPS wrote:Lol, talk about reaching, and I thought you spoke in facts. Well the actual facts in this case are what doomed Trump. Paying for sex with a playboy model, or porn star isn't the crime here, albeit it makes the case sound more juicy and draws headlines. It's probably the only way he could get laid to be honest(just my opinion). The crime here is falsifying records to cover up money, and his signature is on those cheques issued to David Pecker, for the catch and kill on Karen McDougal. The Trump Tower meeting between Pecker and Cohen validates the purpose of these funds. I can on and on, but the "facts" are what they are and Trump now needs your money to keep campaigning. You can draw your conclusion this was a democratic political motive to convict Trump, well that is fine to feel that way, but facts are facts and he got caught.

Those aren't the only 'facts' in this case. Here's a few more:

The prosecutor, Alvin Bragg, is a registered Democrat. He ran and won as a Democrat in the position he now holds. He has a reputation, and has come under heavy criticism, for reducing felony charges to misdemeanor crimes. Bragg's predecessor had decided not to even bring charges let alone raise them to a felony. Trump had no previous convictions, and this was not a violent crime, rather a victimless one, so there was no reason other than a political one to pursue these charge as felonies.

New York is one of the most solid Democratic states in the nation. In 2020, Biden defeated Trump by 23%. They haven't voted for an R POTUS candidate since Reagan. If you're a prosecutor, that's a perfect pool from which to select a jury. The only way for Trump to get a fair trial would have been to move it out of the country, to the UK or Australia, and even then, there's still a huge potential for bias.

Having said that, I agree 100% with the verdict. There's not a doubt in my mind that Trump knew exactly what was going on and that what he was doing was illegal. But I was shocked that he was convicted.

Aseahawkfan wrote:My ideal outcome is Trump wins while in jail and governs from jail. The Republicans look incredibly stupid for voting in a president governing from jail. The Democrats look even dumber for losing to a president who is in jail.

If that does not provide enough of a wake up call to make America go, "What the hell are we doing and why do we have a two party system?", I don't know what will. If the Democrats lose to a guy they stuck charges and put in jail, my goodness that will look absolutely terrible.

If Trump governs from jail, I can't wait to see SNL next season. It will be hilarious.

And I can say I've seen the first president of African descent, the fall of The Berlin Wall and Communist Russia, the rise of the internet and PC, many amazing movies, and a president governing from jail. This historical period will make for some great movies later, maybe after we're all dead they can make it look much cooler than it is to live watching this idiocy.

Yeah, that would be funny. Maybe he can hold cabinet meetings in the prison cafeteria. Visiting dignitaries having to visit him in his jail cell. It ain't going to happen, but it's funny to think about.

4XPIPS wrote:Lol, talk about reaching, and I thought you spoke in facts. Well the actual facts in this case are what doomed Trump. Paying for sex with a playboy model, or porn star isn't the crime here, albeit it makes the case sound more juicy and draws headlines. It's probably the only way he could get laid to be honest(just my opinion). The crime here is falsifying records to cover up money, and his signature is on those cheques issued to David Pecker, for the catch and kill on Karen McDougal. The Trump Tower meeting between Pecker and Cohen validates the purpose of these funds. I can on and on, but the "facts" are what they are and Trump now needs your money to keep campaigning. You can draw your conclusion this was a democratic political motive to convict Trump, well that is fine to feel that way, but facts are facts and he got caught.

I do deal in facts. The laundry of list of politicians that have done exactly what Trump has done or worse and successfully covered it up or avoided a felony conviction due to political connections and wealth is long and distinguished.

Only a complete Democratic sycophant, Trump hater, or fool would believe this was anything other than a politically motivated trial due to Trump not playing ball in D.C. Which is why in the history of this nation no president has had a felony conviction stuck on him like this even with multiple well-documented examples of similar crimes to Trump and worse.

There is a reason this is an historical trial and it isn't because Trump did something that hasn't been done many times before by many politicians. Trump's just too damn dumb to realize he is not as powerful or untouchable as he thinks he is and needs to play ball in D.C. because that place has a lot of people as powerful or more powerful than him with the ability pull strings for and against you in the legal system.

River_Dog wrote:Yeah, that would be funny. Maybe he can hold cabinet meetings in the prison cafeteria. Visiting dignitaries having to visit him in his jail cell. It ain't going to happen, but it's funny to think about.

Depending on what happens, this is going to be the most insane election in my lifetime.

I know you are in an even more conservative area than I am. My conservatives buddies see this as nothing more than a rigged trial that makes them hate the Democrats even more. It's done nothing to sway them against Trump and has done more to cause them to dig in even harder.

I'm hoping it doesn't get violent like Florida or Texas taking Trump in, seceding, and refusing extradition or something crazy. This is the kind of thing that could wrong in some very bad ways to the detriment of the nation during a very bad time in the world.

Not sure it was a smart political play by the Democrats, but only time will tell.

Worst case scenario is this leads to a real Civil War where Trump just says "Screw it all, If I'm going to jail I'm going to wind up my people and it see what happens." The nation rips apart. Russia sends support for Trump as so many people feared. China sits out watching America rip itself apart and takes Taiwan can stop them. The entire world order shifts as the outside world watches America rips itself apart and fall and everything America supports in this world collapses with it including the Middle Eastern power bloc as they shift their allegiance to China to sell their oil. I doubt this scenario occurs because too many powerful corporate figures would not allow it.

The most hilarious scenario is Trump is sentenced to prison. Still runs his campaign from prison or is allowed to campaign with an ankle bracelet. Still manages to win the national election and become president, pardons himself, and we see if that is even possible, then I don't know what happens after that, fights with Democrats for four more years getting nothing done unless Congress flips his way. The Democrats have to least look in the mirror and say, "We just lost to a guy we put in jail. What the hell?"

The best case scenario is Trump finally gives up, cuts a deal to quit running for president, and disappears from public politics so we don't see any more trials, hear any more crap from him, or have to think much about him and the Republican Party finally starts to wash the Trump stink out and find someone that knows how to operate in Washington and understand American political power internationally.

Who knows at this point. Another nutball election coming up that will probably be more nutball than the one in 2020 even without the pandemic.

It would be super interesting to see if a president can pardon himself since as far as I know that has never been done. We'll see how the swing voters see this whole trial. Right now the anti-Trump crowd is putting forth the smarmy idea this isn't political motivated as they try to ride their moral high horses, while looney right just see this as more political misuse of the legal system and law-enforcement by Democrats who have "weaponized the legal system" as they call it. Not sure how argue against that theory at this point given the number of Democratic politicians that have been involved in similar scandals where nothing happened to them with Bill Clinton as the Democrat Poster Boy for "I did not have relations with Monica Lewinski" at the top of the list, but more minor figures like Marion Berry and some of the Democrat politicians we have here accurse inappropriate sexual relationships like Ed Murray.

Just more back and forth as both sides insult the other and engage in smarmy claims of moral superiority while they have no leg to stand on given all the wrongdoing by Democrats that Democrats did nothing about and swept under the carpet or voted the guy in again and the Republicans supporting a guy who did do what he did and they acted all indignant concerning Clinton when that was clearly a politically motivated trial even though Clinton did do what he was accused of doing.

And the funny thing as bad and corrupt as America is, it could be worse when you look across the Sea at places like Russia and China, could be a whole lot worse.

I hope these dumbasses don't star a Civil War over the clown Trump. That would be real damn sad.

Trump can't pardon himself in this conviction. It's a state charge. The POTUS can only issue pardons for federal crimes. Same with the election interference case in Georgia. But I've been wrong before. We're entering uncharted territory. There's also a debate about whether or not he could serve jail time if he were elected. Most experts are guessing that he wouldn't have to serve any time until he was out of office.

I agree that it doesn't even move the needle with nearly all of the R's. There are legitimate points to be raised about the fairness of this trial, of which I've cited above. If it were anyone but Donald Trump, those charges would never have seen the light of day. This plays into Trump's witch hunt narrative very nicely, and his followers aren't going to abandon him.

But in a close election, it could sway some undecideds in the critical swing states where the election will be won or lost. It certainly isn't going to help Trump. We'll have to wait and see how it plays out.

Stream Hawk wrote:I’m as anti Trump as they come, but his asshole supporters appear to be giving him even more support now. I’ve lost all hope for this country following the insurrection. This ahole BLATANTLY LIED about election results, managed to gain more sheep supporters with those lies, and now even more from this conviction.

Long story short, US presidential politics are entering a terrifying era. In reality the only solution is to amend the Constitution and prevent convicted felons from holding office.

Yeah, there's no one in this forum that are more anti Trump than I am. I can't stand the SOB, and have made my position well known since 2016.

I agree that politics has entered a very terrifying era. The problem is that Americans are in general, stupid and gullible. I read surveys where 29% of young adults can't find the Pacific Ocean on a map and I just shake my head in disbelief. When people are that stupid, their minds are very subject to manipulation. We live in an age where there is too much information. People will believe what they want to hear and ignore everything else.

The other problem is the Democrats. There is no such thing as a conservative Dem anymore, that fact being highlighted today by Sen. Joe Manchin's announcement that he's leaving the party to become an independent. For many people, including myself, they are not a viable option to a Republican Party that has gone off the deep end. Their tent isn't big enough to accommodate a fiscal conservative and social moderate like me. There's a lot of people out there that don't care for Trump personally but view the alternative as being worse.

Here's something I saw that caused me to chuckle:

Countries around the world implement stringent entry requirements to protect their citizens and maintain national security. According to the World Population Review, G7 nations Canada, the United Kingdom and Japan have established policies that prohibit entry to individuals with felony convictions. Additionally, Israel and China also impose such bans. These regulations often result in automatic denial of visas or entry permits to convicted felons, potentially impacting Trump's ability to travel internationally.

Obviously, countries wanting to host a POTUS would make an exception for him, but the thought of Trump not being able to go to a conference because of his status as a convicted felon is hilarious.

I'm also seeing some surveys that say as many as 7% of Republicans might change their minds about Trump should he be convicted of a felony. If that's true, it could have a significant impact on the upcoming election. Trump won the 2016 election by something like 80k votes across 3 states, and losing 7% of his base would be huge.

River_Dog wrote:Here's something I saw that caused me to chuckle:

Countries around the world implement stringent entry requirements to protect their citizens and maintain national security. According to the World Population Review, G7 nations Canada, the United Kingdom and Japan have established policies that prohibit entry to individuals with felony convictions. Additionally, Israel and China also impose such bans. These regulations often result in automatic denial of visas or entry permits to convicted felons, potentially impacting Trump's ability to travel internationally.

Obviously, countries wanting to host a POTUS would make an exception for him, but the thought of Trump not being able to go to a conference because of his status as a convicted felon is hilarious.

I'm also seeing some surveys that say as many as 7% of Republicans might change their minds about Trump should he be convicted of a felony. If that's true, it could have a significant impact on the upcoming election. Trump won the 2016 election by something like 80k votes across 3 states, and losing 7% of his base would be huge.

This gets funnier and funnier. I hope this dude doesn't win. It will be the ultimate embarrassment to elect a felon.

When did American politics become so terrible? We used to viewed as a great Democracy, an example to emulate. Now we're some joke of a nation electing reality TV stars, arguing over what a woman is, and ripping apart our Capital and cities.
I can't imagine what the rest of the world thinks looking at us right now. We look so ridiculous and pathetic. Definitely not our finest hour.

River_Dog wrote:Here's something I saw that caused me to chuckle:

Countries around the world implement stringent entry requirements to protect their citizens and maintain national security. According to the World Population Review, G7 nations Canada, the United Kingdom and Japan have established policies that prohibit entry to individuals with felony convictions. Additionally, Israel and China also impose such bans. These regulations often result in automatic denial of visas or entry permits to convicted felons, potentially impacting Trump's ability to travel internationally.

Obviously, countries wanting to host a POTUS would make an exception for him, but the thought of Trump not being able to go to a conference because of his status as a convicted felon is hilarious.

I'm also seeing some surveys that say as many as 7% of Republicans might change their minds about Trump should he be convicted of a felony. If that's true, it could have a significant impact on the upcoming election. Trump won the 2016 election by something like 80k votes across 3 states, and losing 7% of his base would be huge.

Aseahawkfan wrote:This gets funnier and funnier. I hope this dude doesn't win. It will be the ultimate embarrassment to elect a felon.

When did American politics become so terrible? We used to viewed as a great Democracy, an example to emulate. Now we're some joke of a nation electing reality TV stars, arguing over what a woman is, and ripping apart our Capital and cities.
I can't imagine what the rest of the world thinks looking at us right now. We look so ridiculous and pathetic. Definitely not our finest hour.

I just got off the phone with a friend of mine, a Japanese exchange student from high school that I've remained friends with for over 50 years. I'll be hosting him for a few days this September. It will be interesting to get his perspective.

I think a lot of this can be blamed on social media as there is no filter on it. It also allows all the moonbats to meet in one place and they can feed on each other. It used to be if a person were a nut, they were virtually isolated and sort of died on the vine.

I wouldn't want to put money on this election, certainly not this far out. Before this verdict, I felt pretty confident that Trump was going to win, but this conviction could change things. It has really outraged the far right and could be a dog whistle to them, but is it actually going to result in getting more people out to vote in the right states that wouldn't have otherwise voted?

River_Dog wrote:Trump can't pardon himself in this conviction. It's a state charge. The POTUS can only issue pardons for federal crimes. Same with the election interference case in Georgia. But I've been wrong before. We're entering uncharted territory. There's also a debate about whether or not he could serve jail time if he were elected. Most experts are guessing that he wouldn't have to serve any time until he was out of office.

I agree that it doesn't even move the needle with nearly all of the R's. There are legitimate points to be raised about the fairness of this trial, of which I've cited above. If it were anyone but Donald Trump, those charges would never have seen the light of day. This plays into Trump's witch hunt narrative very nicely, and his followers aren't going to abandon him.

But in a close election, it could sway some undecideds in the critical swing states where the election will be won or lost. It certainly isn't going to help Trump. We'll have to wait and see how it plays out.

Very few people are dumb enough to think this is anything other than political warfare.

Trump been a New York native for all his life. He was born in New York. He had a few investigations prior to running for president, but nothing like this and most he settled with no jail time or problems. Soon as the guy runs for president, wins, and pisses off the Dems including former New York Senator Hilary Clinton, he has investigations crawling up his ass in True Blue Democratic Bastion New York State and we're supposed to believe this was some fair and impartial trial. Not something I'm buying. It's pure political warfare and Trump pissed off enough people in the Democratic Party and in the Republican Party to leave him open for this. If he wants to drain his funds in legal battles and ruin his rep more, then that's his doing as far as I'm concerned.

Man needs to realize that there are other very powerful people out there that can punish him even with all his money. It's not good to piss them off. I especially think pissing someone like Dick Cheney off is a bad idea as a guy like Cheney is someone that can back Democrats off if he is on your side and certainly helped control the Democrats when he was Bush's VP due to his experience in D.C. I'm pretty sure Cheney's support has been pulled from Trump for Trump's treatment of his daughter. On top of all the other people that he's churned through in his cabinet and his former VP Pence and Mitch McConnell who may look sickly, but obviously has pull in D.C. to have maintained his power and lasted in D.C. for so long. And Romney who hasn't been a D.C. fixture for decades not having friends and pull in D.C.

This to me is just another example of how dumb Trump is. Guy is a New York fixture for decades. He has the majority of his assets and his name associated with New York City. Then decides to run for president against Hilary Clinton who was a Senator in New York and obviously had been supported by New York's Democratic political establishment and runs in a manner that insults and pisses her off. Then when in office he further pushes the buttons of New York Democrats. His assets and his businesses and his name and his family are all right there in New York, a Democratic power area, yet he still decides to fight. So the Democrats just said, "We're going to show you what we can do to you Mr. New York." The have turned all their power on him in New York and Federally to crush him crawling over all his assets and activities with a fine tooth comb with full access in the Democratic Blue State of New York.

This guy seems to think he's untouchable in New York where Democratic power is concentrated. That would be like a Democrat pissing off Republicans with all their assets in Texas or Florida. How dumb do you have to be to start a fight with another gang in their home territory and they got more people and power than you got there?

Trump is bad at D.C. politics. He's getting what he gets because of it. All those New York friends he once had are likely gone or won't help him so they don't have trouble from the Democrat power going after them. Dude FUBARed himself and possibly his family by making the very place where he made his name and built up most of his assets an enemy that wants him gone.

You shouldn't occupy the president's office if you're too dumb to know it is a bad idea to start a fight when your stuff is all located in your opponent's backyard so they can crawl up your ass and hand it back to you in a court of law.

River_Dog wrote:I just got off the phone with a friend of mine, a Japanese exchange student from high school that I've remained friends with for over 50 years. I'll be hosting him for a few days this September. It will be interesting to get his perspective.

I think a lot of this can be blamed on social media as there is no filter on it. It also allows all the moonbats to meet in one place and they can feed on each other. It used to be if a person were a nut, they were virtually isolated and sort of died on the vine.

I wouldn't want to put money on this election, certainly not this far out. Before this verdict, I felt pretty confident that Trump was going to win, but this conviction could change things. It has really outraged the far right and could be a dog whistle to them, but is it actually going to result in getting more people out to vote in the right states that wouldn't have otherwise voted?

I don't know how this will go either. Depends on the swing voters. The Republicans I know are all in on Trump. They hate Joe Biden for whatever reason Fox News or whatever conservative media they read fed them. Biden could cure cancer and someone would twist it to make it seem like he did it for bad reasons. Joe obviously has lots of chinks in his armor with his son and some of the really stupid Democrats selling garbage like Ilhan Omar and the far left protesting at schools and such.

But the right has a convicted felon as a presidential candidate. A loon who likes to start fights and create chaos. Not sure swing voters love that either.

The uncommitted swing voters are a huge wild card. The pro-Trump and anti-Trump groups are set. Democrats I think are mostly set. Republicans are a a mixed bag, but enough support Trump to be the majority. The swing voters are going to be a wild card in how they see this. I imagine we'll have to see how the economy is going and how it all feels.

Then we might have some last minute bombshells like a tape with Trump calling someone the N-word and seeing what his sentence is in July during an election year, then the eventual appeal to the Supreme Court due to the nature of the subject and this being an election year.

Going to be an eventful election. I hope it doesn't get violent. We saw what happened January 6th and Trump going to jail has nothing to lose anymore, those are the worst kind of people to push into a corner if they have any power.

Aseahawkfan wrote:I don't know how this will go either. Depends on the swing voters. The Republicans I know are all in on Trump. They hate Joe Biden for whatever reason Fox News or whatever conservative media they read fed them. Biden could cure cancer and someone would twist it to make it seem like he did it for bad reasons. Joe obviously has lots of chinks in his armor with his son and some of the really stupid Democrats selling garbage like Ilhan Omar and the far left protesting at schools and such.

But the right has a convicted felon as a presidential candidate. A loon who likes to start fights and create chaos. Not sure swing voters love that either.

The uncommitted swing voters are a huge wild card. The pro-Trump and anti-Trump groups are set. Democrats I think are mostly set. Republicans are a a mixed bag, but enough support Trump to be the majority. The swing voters are going to be a wild card in how they see this. I imagine we'll have to see how the economy is going and how it all feels.

Then we might have some last minute bombshells like a tape with Trump calling someone the N-word and seeing what his sentence is in July during an election year, then the eventual appeal to the Supreme Court due to the nature of the subject and this being an election year.

Going to be an eventful election. I hope it doesn't get violent. We saw what happened January 6th and Trump going to jail has nothing to lose anymore, those are the worst kind of people to push into a corner if they have any power.

I just got through reading several articles about how online forums are trying to dox the jurors and are threatening violence, that the FBI has said that it's reached a height last seen when FBI agents raided Trump's Mar a Largo resort looking for classified documents. This could be another 1968-1972 when MLK and Bobby Kennedy were assassinated, and George Wallace was shot and permanently paralyzed. I hope I'm wrong, but things could get really ugly. I sure hope that LE is on their toes.

I haven't watched a political convention from either party for over 30 years, but I might have to tune in to watch both this year. We all thought that 2020 was wild with the pandemic and the ensuing capitol riot. This one could be much worse.

The American Justice system is such a clown show.

Trump is going going to jail (maybe) for falsifying documents and making a payments to conceal an affair with a pornstar.

Deshaun Watson did far worse and is playing QB in the NFL and making millions.

Even Harvey Weinstein and BIll Cosby after the Metoo# movement has gone quiet have used what remaining connections and money they have to get out of prison.

Jeffrey Epstein is dead. Ghislaine Maxwell is doing jail time. Not a single other person that utilized Epstein's services has been prosecuted.

Here we are with some Americans purely by virtue of their political affiliation and anti-Trump hate are claiming Trump is in jail based on his crimes rather than his politics and actions as president for crimes far less than what others are walking free for. It is pretty ridiculous.

Just goes to show if a political party has the juice and wants you in jail, they can find a way to get it done. But if you play ball and wait for things to go quiet, you can evade a lot of punishments and charges.

All this while our prisons are filled with mostly poor people on drug crimes.

It sure seems like the American people are pretty huge failures at governing their own nation in any kind of sensible or just manner.

River_Dog wrote:
Yeah, there's no one in this forum that are more anti Trump than I am. I can't stand the SOB, and have made my position well known since 2016.

I agree that politics has entered a very terrifying era. The problem is that Americans are in general, stupid and gullible. I read surveys where 29% of young adults can't find the Pacific Ocean on a map and I just shake my head in disbelief. When people are that stupid, their minds are very subject to manipulation. We live in an age where there is too much information. People will believe what they want to hear and ignore everything else.

The other problem is the Democrats. There is no such thing as a conservative Dem anymore, that fact being highlighted today by Sen. Joe Manchin's announcement that he's leaving the party to become an independent. For many people, including myself, they are not a viable option to a Republican Party that has gone off the deep end. Their tent isn't big enough to accommodate a fiscal conservative and social moderate like me. There's a lot of people out there that don't care for Trump personally but view the alternative as being worse.

Totally agree, River. And I doubt you could despise Trump more than myself!. I am pretty far left - at least in this forum, but I do admit modern day Dems can be a little much. I’ll leave it there.

It sure seems like the American people are pretty huge failures at governing their own nation in any kind of sensible or just manner.

Yes. They have “We the People” just about where they want them. It won’t be long now…….

curmudgeon wrote:Yes. They have “We the People” just about where they want them. It won’t be long now…….

It hasn't been any different across the world save for the illusion or the dream of something different.

Humans cannot achieve consensus as a group, which is why the American system was supposed to be built to not even try save for a few issues of supreme importance. The American system was meant for competing beliefs to survive within the same nation without being able to take over the government and shove their beliefs down everyone else's throat. Which seems to have been lost on our modern day politicians who seem to all want to use the vehicle of government to push their beliefs.

When you think about this, you have to wonder if a bunch of powerful Republicans have signed off behind the scenes on this attack on Trump. He has pissed off many powerful Republicans. They can't seem to get rid of him because their voter base just keeps on supporting him. So they are maybe letting the Democrats take out their trash while they pretend to be outraged by the Trump verdict to protect themselves from the political fallout of publicly disliking Trump.

Not sure it will work as it seems according to my Republican friends Trump rose 6 points against Biden and has raised an immense amount of money to continue campaigning. They feel confident he will win come November. If he loses, we'll see what they do. I don't think the Republican voters have the juice to launch a coup, but I do think they have enough nutjobs to do some real bad violence. That could happen.

I think the use of the legal system by the Democrats to take out a political opponent sets a bad precedent even if he did do most of what he is accused of. I hope it doesn't become the norm as both parties sifting every possible rock to find criminal charges they can stick on a political opponent is going to lead to a lot more problems with our political system and a lot more infighting because as I have listed, a lot of these people accused of crimes have done the crimes because America has a lot of crimes on the books. Usually this stuff gets settled behind the scenes and it's a bad idea for the parents to let the kids see all the bad stuff going on behind the scenes regardless if the bad stuff is true. The kids will have trouble handling if they see behind the curtain and it becomes commonplace to expose ourselves in this fashion.

I listened to Biden claiming this is proof the legal system holds everyone accountable and shows no one is above the law.

Yet I cannot help but listen to this man and think of him as a lying hypocrite when Hunter Biden seems to be very much above the law as he has done many well-documented illegal activities, yet is being well protected by his father and the Democratic establishment.

Hunter Biden was dirty. But to pretend he was so on even close to the Trump kids' scale is partisan hypocrisy.

c_hawkbob wrote:Hunter Biden was dirty. But to pretend he was so on even close to the Trump kids' scale is partisan hypocrisy.

They are dirty. The lot of them. If the justice system is ensuring no one is above the law, then Hunter Biden should go down like many others. A whole laundry list of Republicans and Democrats should be suffering the effect of the law if what Biden says is true.

It is partisan hypocrisy to try to decide who is dirtier. Which is why we are where we are at with Americans looking like fools trying to decide which party has dirtier politicians and listening to a president claim no one is above the law while his own son is protected and the other side defending a guy busted for paying off a pornstar while claiming to be this religious, moral, family matters group of American conservatives.

This has reached the point of incredible stupidity and hypocrisy with supporters of each party defending criminality based on partisan affiliation. Our legal system should not be like this. Nor our political system.

The political media is playing us for idiots and has been for quite a while. I think the American people need to find a way to bypass these manipulative people and talk to each other more rather than being wound up by political media against each other when they have far more common concerns they could address than the issues being thrust upon them by the established parties which are nothing but distractions to real issues that need some work.

That's a hard problem to solve. How do you bypass your representatives when they have been bought and paid for by wealthy, powerful voting blocs and individuals within your nation? I am not sure. A way has to be found.

c_hawkbob wrote:Hunter Biden was dirty. But to pretend he was so on even close to the Trump kids' scale is partisan hypocrisy.

ASF can speak for himself, but it didn't seem to me that he was comparing Hunter Biden to Trump's kids.

Corruption in government didn't start with Trump and isn't new and it's not going to go away once he does. What concerns me more that corrupt politicians is the stupidity and gullibility of the American public. Somebody like Trump shouldn't have ever gotten within spitting distance of the White House. Until that problem is fixed, I don't see us getting out of this conundrum we've been in for the past 8 years.

What I'm tired of is Democrats and Republicans deciding their candidates using some imaginary scorecard of who is dirtier like we all have some card we fill out based on points we add up for who is the dirtier politician while we pretend the other side is more moral based on this imaginary scorecard. Biden's kid Hunter scores 30 on the dirty meter and Trump's kids score 35. How do I use that to decide to my vote? How do you claim the American justice system has held no one above the law based on this imaginary scorecard?

You just can't keep voting based on who you view as a dirtier politician and expect American government to go well. If one guy is less dirty, he's still dirty. He's still committing legally and ethically questionable acts and it's still doesn't represent America well.

You can't keep keep letting Fox News and CNN base their entire political media on selling us the worst candidate. At some point if we as Americans are just being sold on whose the worst, then what is wrong with us? We're still ending up voting for bad people on a list that should not even include them.

Americans should be voting in people who are going to help them for real. Not tell them BS to their face while they do a bunch of behind the scenes wheeling and dealing to make the end result having done next to nothing for the majority of Americans while selling us it's the other party's fault. Where does that get us? Where we are now?

I have listened to his crap too long. I still remember when the Democrats were paining W. Bush and Cheney as war criminals and lied to us to get us in a war with Iraq. Now that is all forgotten because the Democrats have sold Trump as the worst devil to ever hold the presidency. It just keeps happening with both parties and their political media arms. They just keep selling their followers that each president from the opposition party is the worst thing to happen to America ever again and again and again. How long can Americans keep buying this and voting for these people before it rips the country apart? How long?

It's just a bad way to run a country, Since in America we the people govern with our vote, we really need to make some changes in both of these parties or in the system. This politics as sport approach where everyone treats the president like some sports figure for their favorite team while the opposition is some hated figure you have to boo and hate on is just a dumb, dumb way to run a nation. The American people have to step up their game and find a way to take back control of their government rather than letting these two parties give us these garbage candidates talking about both sides of their faces hoping we hate the other guy enough to give them our vote.

On a side note, Hunter Biden is being prosecuted on some charges involving some handgun I guess. Maybe Biden can longer afford to protect Hunter as he has done all these years. The price of taking out Trump.

It is the coverup, as it often is. Nixon, Clinton, and, now Trump. All could come out better if they had come clean.

Old but Slow wrote:It is the coverup, as it often is. Nixon, Clinton, and, now Trump. All could come out better if they had come clean.

Nixon resigned in the face of almost certain impeachment, so yeah, he would have been better off coming clean. But Clinton didn't come out all that badly, having survived impeachment and finishing with a 61% job approval rating. Plus, think of all the cigar jokes that we would have missed out on.

As far as Trump goes, the cover-up worked, at least to this point. Had he not covered up his crime and a juicy story about him and a porn star and/or Playboy model came out, it almost certainly would have swayed enough voters to change the outcome of what was a very close election in 2016. So unless Trump actually does time as a result of these convictions, I would say that his cover-up was wildly successful.

Riverdog, are you sure enough Trump is going to win to put money on him in Vegas? I bet there are betting odds on the presidential election.

Aseahawkfan wrote:Riverdog, are you sure enough Trump is going to win to put money on him in Vegas? I bet there are betting odds on the presidential election.

I don't think it's legal to bet on the outcomes of elections in Las Vegas, but it does happen elsewhere:

Donald Trump remains the betting favorite to win the 2024 presidential election. But his odds have worsened after he became the first former American president to be convicted of a felony.

Trump moved from a -165 favorite over President Joe Biden to -130 at BetOnline.ag, an offshore sportsbook that is not regulated in the U.S. Biden’s odds improved from +140 to +110.

To answer your question, I don't feel confident enough to put a whole lot of money on the outcome of this election. But if I had to, I'd bet on Trump for a couple of reasons:

Biden's job approval rating sucks. The economy is not going to tip in his favor. Inflation isn't going away and will continue to be an issue into November. Biden's age is going to be an issue. The guy belongs in assisted living, not the White House. Trump is no spring chicken, either, but he doesn't show his age nearly to the same degree that Biden does his.

Even after his convictions. the polls show Trump ahead in all of the swing states as well as nationally, and as we saw in both 2016 and 2020, polls have a tendency to underestimate Trump's strength. He has a lot of closet supporters, people that are afraid to admit that they'll vote for them.

As we saw in the RvW decision, bombshell news has a shelf life. If Trump's convictions were going to make a big difference, we would have seen a major swing by now. It's not going to change enough votes to make a difference, and there's an argument to be made that it might actually help him.

The hush money convictions were nothing and can very easily be rationalized as a political hit job. The really big trials, ie the Georgia election interference case and the federal trial over the Jan. 6th riot, won't occur before the election if at all.

It looks like the Trump convictions have had a very minimal, if any, effect on the polls:

The polling averages have barely budged. At RealClearPolitics Trump led Biden in head-to-head matchups by 0.8 percent on May 30, the day of the guilty verdict. Now his lead is at 1.0 percent. In five-way surveys that include minor candidates, Trump’s lead at RCP was at 2.2 percent on May 30 and is exactly the same now. FiveThirtyEight’s average of polls that include Biden, Trump, and Kennedy show the Republican’s lead slipping marginally from 1.7 percent on May 30 to 1.6 percent now.

We have just two credible post-conviction battleground state polls, and they, too, don’t show any dramatic results. A Mitchell Research survey from Michigan shows a 49 - 47 percent Trump lead in May becoming a 48 - 48 percent tie on June 3. In a five-way race, Mitchell has an identical one-point Trump lead in May and June. Meanwhile, Quinnipiac has released a new post-conviction survey of Georgia showing Trump leading Biden by five points (49 - 44 percent) in a head-to-head matchup, and by six points (43 - 37 percent) in a five-way race. While this is Q-Pac’s first 2024 polling from Georgia, both results are nearly identical to the pre-conviction RCP polling averages from that state.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics ... d488&ei=14

The article goes on to say that there hasn't been any change in Trump's favorable/unfavorable rating, either. So far, the conviction is a big nothingburger as far as the election goes. Looks like we're heading towards another 4 years of the Orange Baboon.

No way Trump wins. It won’t be allowed. Unfortunately, the persecution of Hunter Biden is taking its toll on Joe. The greatest President since FDR may not be up to another four years. But Newsom or Michelle Obama are equally equipped to lead the country…..