Presidential Debate

[River_Dog]

I generally tune out of political events like State of the Union and inaugural speeches, but I'm going to watch tonight's debate just to see which one of these old codgers screws up first and/or worse. Democrats have been complaining that the R's will take anything Biden says or does and twist it to make him look old, which they no doubt have been doing. Well, no one's going to be able to spin the actions and words of these two morons tonight if we watch it live as it happens. Nothing that happens is going to change the way I'm going to vote, but it's can't miss TV.

Will Biden start be reading exactly what his teleprompter says? Will he turn around and walk off in the wrong direction? Will he trip and fall? And will Trump lose his mind by going off on the moderator or stage crew? Will he get mixed up like he did when he confused Nikki Haley with Nancy Pelosi?

I wonder if Las Vegas is taking bets and giving odds on these question....

[NorthHawk]

A few weeks ago, Trump got lost when his Teleprompter had a glitch. It looked a little like he was having some type of seizure, so neither man is immune to those things.
I won't watch because I can't stand Trump going off with lies, half truths and innuendo that isn't factual. It just bothers me to listen to people blatantly lying to my face.
But it will be interesting to hear some of the highlights after it's done.

[River_Dog]

A few weeks ago, Trump got lost when his Teleprompter had a glitch. It looked a little like he was having some type of seizure, so neither man is immune to those things.
I won't watch because I can't stand Trump going off with lies, half truths and innuendo that isn't factual. It just bothers me to listen to people blatantly lying to my face.
But it will be interesting to hear some of the highlights after it's done.

Yeah, I saw that, Trump's really coming unglued at the technical staff. What a POS. I see where the candidates won't have live microphones when it's not their turn to speak because 4 years ago, Trump was constantly interrupting and had to be scolded by Fox's Chris Wallace.

I won't be paying much attention to the content from either of those two, one of the reasons being what you mentioned, integrity, particularly on Trump's part. I also don't like much of Biden's politics, either. Besides, I've already made my mind up that I'm not voting for Trump and whether or not Biden gets my vote depends on which independents are on the ballot, not on anything he might or might not say. I'm just going to watch and see if Biden can stay awake for 90 minutes or if Trump puts the Mexican border up by Colorado or if he puts Paris in Germany.

[Aseahawkfan]

I can't watch this national embarrassment. Biden almost seems like he was forced to run because the Dems just couldn't find anyone else and he would prefer to be retired. And I can't watch a guy like Trump that is continuing to run for president because he's an angry billionaire child mad because he lost and can't be considered as good as the other two term presidents. I know Trump only cares about himself and not the country, but he gets up there and spins his deceits while his followers think he really cares about America. It's frustrating.

[River_Dog]

I can't watch this national embarrassment. Biden almost seems like he was forced to run because the Dems just couldn't find anyone else and he would prefer to be retired. And I can't watch a guy like Trump that is continuing to run for president because he's an angry billionaire child mad because he lost and can't be considered as good as the other two term presidents. I know Trump only cares about himself and not the country, but he gets up there and spins his deceits while his followers think he really cares about America. It's frustrating.

When the R's first nominated Trump back in 2016, Cbob said something to the effect that they just nominated the best Democratic candidate in history, and he was exactly right. Extremists should be easy to beat. LBJ was opposed by a man by the name of Barry Goldwater who admitted to being an extremist and won easily. Nixon beat liberal extremist George McGovern like a drum.

The fact that the only candidate the Dems can produce that even has a shot of beating Trump is a feeble old man that can't remember within a few years when his son died speaks volumes about the sad state of affairs within that party. If they were to trot someone out there like Gavin Newsom, Trump would beat him by 50 electoral votes.

[Aseahawkfan]

When the R's first nominated Trump back in 2016, Cbob said something to the effect that they just nominated the best Democratic candidate in history, and he was exactly right. Extremists should be easy to beat. LBJ was opposed by a man by the name of Barry Goldwater who admitted to being an extremist and won easily. Nixon beat liberal extremist George McGovern like a drum.

The fact that the only candidate the Dems can produce that even has a shot of beating Trump is a feeble old man that can't remember within a few years when his son died speaks volumes about the sad state of affairs within that party. If they were to trot someone out there like Gavin Newsom, Trump would beat him by 50 electoral votes.

I don't like seeing a president like Biden pressed into service who didn't really want to run. I don't like seeing him ridiculed either for being old when he literally wasn't even interested in running until likely some Democrat power broker said, "We got no shot against Trump. We thought Hilary could beat him, but she couldn't. She likely won't be able to do so in the future. So we need you to come out of retirement and run." Now a man that already served enough time is running likely out of a sense of duty to try to stave off the lunacy that is Trump because the Democrats have gone so far left they can't find a moderate candidate with Biden being the closest, while the Democrats claim the Republicans are the looney ones who also can't find a moderate conservative or won't support one like Nikki Haley because they hate the Democrats so much for all the looney crap they are doing that they would rather vote in Trump just because "He'll fight the Democrats."

I don't even hear any love of Trump amongst my friends, just pure Democratic hate for all the weird stuff they are doing. Democrats seem to really be doing a lot of backdoor legislation and a lot of abuse of the legal system to bypass votes or any resistance. It's not a great look.

[curmudgeon]

Kabuki theatre. No way a Democrat loses the 2024 election…..

[NorthHawk]

This election boils down to traditional gov't vs batcrap crazy/dictatorship/revenge tour gov't, IMO.
I read part of Project 2025 and there's a lot to make you want to ask how the hell did it get to this point.

[River_Dog]

I don't like seeing a president like Biden pressed into service who didn't really want to run. I don't like seeing him ridiculed either for being old when he literally wasn't even interested in running until likely some Democrat power broker said, "We got no shot against Trump. We thought Hilary could beat him, but she couldn't. She likely won't be able to do so in the future. So we need you to come out of retirement and run." Now a man that already served enough time is running likely out of a sense of duty to try to stave off the lunacy that is Trump because the Democrats have gone so far left they can't find a moderate candidate with Biden being the closest, while the Democrats claim the Republicans are the looney ones who also can't find a moderate conservative or won't support one like Nikki Haley because they hate the Democrats so much for all the looney crap they are doing that they would rather vote in Trump just because "He'll fight the Democrats."

I don't even hear any love of Trump amongst my friends, just pure Democratic hate for all the weird stuff they are doing. Democrats seem to really be doing a lot of backdoor legislation and a lot of abuse of the legal system to bypass votes or any resistance. It's not a great look.

You have a really good point about Biden. He was/is the only person capable of beating Trump, and I'll forever be grateful for him beating that POS. I would gain a whole lot more respect for him if he won this election then resigns a month or so after the inauguration.

I really like Nikki Haley. She has a solid resume, both in the international field as a UN ambassador as well as experience as a governor, and she sounds like she's going to do something about Social Security besides kick the can down the road like all the other pols from both parties have done.

The debate is about to get started. Time to go get my glass of wine. It's scheduled for 90 minutes, but I doubt that I'll be able to stomach much more than a half hour of Trump.

[Aseahawkfan]

This election boils down to traditional gov't vs batcrap crazy/dictatorship/revenge tour gov't, IMO.
I read part of Project 2025 and there's a lot to make you want to ask how the hell did it get to this point.

The Democrats are not offering traditional government or we would not be where we are now. I do not know why Democrats are selling themselves traditional government. That is not what they are doing at all.

The transgender push is a huge movement away from traditional government. When you have one party clear on what a woman is and another party that is engaging in this philosophy of gender confusion including pushing this into public schools, that is nothing like traditional government or the usual working class, union Democrats. It's pure, unbridled cultural destruction. Never has there in history been an argument over what a woman is to the point where even a liberal woman like a J.K. Rowling is being vilified as what...too conservative?...because she pushed back against the transgender narrative. For some reason each party cannot see the looney in their own party. It's a very big problem in politics right now.

Democrats are in no way pushing traditional government. They are engaged in cultural warfare in a way that many conservative voters are pushing heavily back against. And it's not just Trump followers like Democrats are trying to sell with their media arm. It's a lot of Americans that would love to vote for a moderate, but don't see any so they're picking a party based on this group seems to have fewer lunatics.

The Democrats may ignore their crazies same as the Republicans, but you have plenty of them which Fox News and conservative media are all too happy to point out whether It's Ilhan Omar calling anyone supporting Israel pro-genocide or the Democrats using Title 9 which was supposed to support women's sports to push transgender females into women's sports with a clear advantage from being formerly male to fearmongering and bad policy on environmental energy like these carbon taxes and natural gas banning to the soft on crime policies that turn former felonies into misdemeanors by changing the parameters of a crime rather than incarcerating the criminals. You may ignore it, but organized retail crime is a real thing and is very damaging to businesses. The anti-police stance of the Democrats that is leading to low hiring and understaffed police forces while drug crimes and associated violence are growing in urban areas and bleeding out.

These are real issues that the left wing media doesn't bother reporting so some Democrats can for some reason believe their party is more sane when it isn't and it's a problem leading to this divide. It's not just Republicans voting for Trump that is causing this, but the Democrats pushing far left over several issues many Americans do not want a part of.

I even see quite a few friends choosing to home school to avoid American public education because of the school is more concerned with pushing a re-socialization agenda when it comes to sexuality that many parents don't think schools should be pushing including this transgender push. It makes quite a few Americans not even want to participate if their choice is allow their children to have the Democrat ideology jammed down their throat or school them at home so they can keep an eye on what their kids are learning. Schools used for ideological demagoguery is a clear sign of extreme left policy. You see that in places like Communist China or other dictator nations, not supposed to be how schools are used in America.

Not by the left or right. They are supposed to be for preparing children for the building of work skills and not socialization other than basic understanding of their rights and legal standing in their nation. This clearly left wing school indoctrination is a problem as it is a vast over-reach of government power.

So no, it is not traditional government versus crazy. It's a double dose of crazy and angry and we need different leaders to get things moving in a different direction because the only people benefitting right now near as I can tell is corporate America getting tax cuts from the right and huge amounts of tax incentives and money to build from the left.

[NorthHawk]

The Dems are pushing for equality with the trans agenda. The Republicans are pushing for segregation like they did in the past.
The Dems continue to pledge allegiance to the constitution and the Republicans are pledging their allegiance to Trump.
That’s the basic difference. The other difference is the Republicans are being led by their fringe while the Democrats have control over their crazies - at least they aren’t having a big influence over party policy.

Start reading Project 2025 and it tells us what their plans are.

[Aseahawkfan]

The Dems are pushing for equality with the trans agenda. The Republicans are pushing for segregation like they did in the past.
The Dems continue to pledge allegiance to the constitution and the Republicans are pledging their allegiance to Trump.
That’s the basic difference. The other difference is the Republicans are being led by their fringe while the Democrats have control over their crazies - at least they aren’t having a big influence over party policy.

Start reading Project 2025 and it tells us what their plans are.

It's funny that a left leaning liberal is the first person to point out Project 2025 because none of my conservative voting friends even know about this thing likely because it is specifically created by a small branch of Republicans and is being used as a fear mongering tool to push Democrats to vote when the majority of Republican voters are focused on some key issue they care about or the economy.

The Title 9 push of transgender females into female sports is not equality, it's a complete destruction of what we know gender to clearly be. Male and female sports were separated to begin with due to the clear, documented differences between males and females or females would just be playing in the NBA and NFL making millions rather than Title 9 being created to establish female sports to provide them a safe, fair space to compete in athletics. Pushing transgender females exhibiting clear male advantages into female sports is not equality, but inequality. Democrats need to learn to say no because there will never be equality when the procedure to transition gender is mostly cosmetic. It doesn't alter bone structure or any of the advantages or biological differences between males and females that occurred due to the naturally occurring sexual differences in a sexual dimorphic species like humans.

You want to know what the biggest piece of evidence that this transgender female push into female sports is problematic: that males aren't even concerned at all about females transitioning to male entering their sports. Males can for the most part completely ignore this issue and it won't affect them at all. Men can say, "Sorry women, you're on your own. I'm going to go watch the NFL and NBA because none of you will ever be able to compete in male sports by transitioning. Sorry, gonna have to work this out on your own."

Republican moderates are pushing for reason, not segregation with the transgender movement. Being respectful in public environments like using appropriate pronouns at work and protections against discrimination is reasonable, but attempting to pretend a cosmetic procedure makes a male fully female is an unreasonable expectation by Democrats. It's literally an incredibly unscientific position given what we know of this procedure and its effects. Democrats that allow themselves to think this while female sports are getting wrecked by this belief is wrong, morally and scientifically. I don't know what it will take to make this obvious, but even marginally well performing males that transition are too much for a female to compensate for. I'm wondering if you need a Lebron James or a Tyson Fury to transition to absolutely destroy any semblance of thinking that a transgender female should be competing in female sports.

Democrats do not have control of their crazies. If they did, we wouldn't be having the culture war we're having right now or people voting for Trump like their life depends on it they are so scared of what Democrats are doing to this country.

And judging from your post, you're doing the same on the Democrat side reading some Project 2025 that the majority of Republicans likely don't know about or don't care about. I have not read Project 2025. I don't care about it. I want my country run in a sane manner.

I am tired of Democrats and Republicans pushing ridiculous crap like Republicans blaming immigrants for crime by pointing out every criminal act done by an immigrant or Democrats using Title 9 to push transgender females into female sports under the guise of equality when they clearly exhibit male advantages that we have already made great effort to protect female sports from so women can have as even a playing field as we can provide for their athletic endeavors.

Americans should not be pushing the insanity levels up any higher and should be making more sane decisions on government on both sides of the spectrum. And BS stuff like Project 2025 is more manipulation from small splinter groups to push people into voting less for a sane, well run, impartial government and more out of fear without bothering to really query what moderates on each side want.

[Stream Hawk]

It was awful. Trump will win for sure if Biden stays in. They need to have Joe retire this weekend and send in freaking anyone. Literally Kamala could beat Trump right now. After tonight’s fiasco, Biden is OBVIOUSLY too old.

[River_Dog]

It was awful. Trump will win for sure if Biden stays in. They need to have Joe retire this weekend and send in freaking anyone. Literally Kamala could beat Trump right now. After tonight’s fiasco, Biden is OBVIOUSLY too old.

That's how I saw it, too. Trump continued to spin his lies and spent the night as if he was a professional wrestler dissing his opponent. Most of the things he said were inaccurate, misleading, or a bold-faced lie. That part was expected and was nothing new.

But Biden confirmed the impression that most people had of him going into the debate, that he's a weak, feeble old man with a failing memory. The graphics were nothing short of horrible. He frequently acted confused, closed his eyes, his voice was at times very weak, he struggled to get out what he wanted to say. He didn't look good at all. It's no wonder that he's held so few press conferences during his term. The Republicans played it magnificently, challenging Biden to take a drug test before the debate to see if he was on speed, insisting that the candidates not be able to rely on notes or a teleprompter, took away his loin cloth.

Early polls indicate that two out of three people who watched the debate thought that Trump won. The election may have been decided by last night's performance.

[Aseahawkfan]

Biden was too old the first time. If not for the pandemic, Joe would have likely lost to Trump in 2020.

Kamala? I think she would lose and lose hard.

I'm not sure who Democrats got to take out Trump. Republicans tried hard to unseat Trump and couldn't do it. A lot of powerful Republicans and moderates don't want Trump. Mitch McConnell doesn't want Trump. Peter Thiel, the living Koch brother, Dick "Dark Lord of the Republican Party" Cheney and his daughter Liz don't want Trump, Mitt Romney doesn't want Trump. Republicans tried to field a candidate to take him out, no dice.

Democrats have so many issues right now, not sure how you solidify your party:

1. Democrats have alienated many Jewish voters due to the anit-Israel stance on many universities.

2. They've alienated Democratic voters who are anti-Israel and pro-Palestine who don't want to support Israel.

3. Democrats have pissed off the police unions.

4. Democrats alienated many female voters who don't like the Democrat stance on transgender women in sports and the misuse of Title 9.

5. Democrats aren't doing enough for the environment for voters whose main issue is the environment.

5. Democrats are doing too much for the middle voter who wants a slower move towards alternative energy.

I just don't get how Democrats can't look with open eyes at their party and see the problematic issues fracturing the Democratic Party. It's nearly as bad as Republicans, but Democrats pretend they're more united because that's what political parties seem to be doing nowadays as both of these political parties are not getting the job done.

What candidate can pull enough together to unseat Trump? Not sure. I really thought someone in the Republican Party could do it, but didn't happen. Now you think someone can come out of the woodwork and beat Trump with roughly five months to go? Good luck.

The best hope Democrats likely have right now is Biden pulling it together and Trump completely screwing up his VP pick. If Trump picks a quality VP candidate who can compete with Kamala and add the polish Trump lacks in quite a few areas, he will be hard to beat come November.

This is the worst election ever, by a mile.

[Aseahawkfan]

That's how I saw it, too. Trump continued to spin his lies and spent the night as if he was a professional wrestler dissing his opponent. Most of the things he said were inaccurate, misleading, or a bold-faced lie. That part was expected and was nothing new.

But Biden confirmed the impression that most people had of him going into the debate, that he's a weak, feeble old man with a failing memory. The graphics were nothing short of horrible. He frequently acted confused, closed his eyes, his voice was at times very weak, he struggled to get out what he wanted to say. He didn't look good at all. It's no wonder that he's held so few press conferences during his term. The Republicans played it magnificently, challenging Biden to take a drug test before the debate to see if he was on speed, insisting that the candidates not be able to rely on notes or a teleprompter, took away his loin cloth.

Early polls indicate that two out of three people who watched the debate thought that Trump won. The election may have been decided by last night's performance.

People don't give a flying crap about the truth. Never have, likely never will.

Trump uses his salesman skills to get people revved up to vote for him. They literally said he tests his views at rallies to see how the crowd reacts because Trump is more concerned with the crowd reaction than some attempt at being factual or honest. He as a salesman knows that people are not looking for factual or honest. They are looking to be sold a vision that fits what they want. He knows how to sell it.

I fact check my friends all the time. I fact check Democrats all the time. You know what you get for that? You get called a know it all or ignored. Learned people are not loved in America save when they produce technology that common people can use to entertain themselves. The vast majority of Americans, people period really, view excessive displays of intelligence and honesty in a negative fashion. They like salesman, which is why smart lawyers or yappers win elections versus the most competent possible politician or individual that would run the nation well.

The majority don't even understand the science they accept as true the vast majority of the time and are incapable of determining the accuracy of the information they hold as true. They often believe on faith and vote on feeling. That is why Trump doesn't waste his time with honesty or facts because he's known for a long time that is not what sells to people.

[River_Dog]

People don't give a flying crap about the truth. Never have, likely never will.

Trump uses his salesman skills to get people revved up to vote for him. They literally said he tests his views at rallies to see how the crowd reacts because Trump is more concerned with the crowd reaction than some attempt at being factual or honest. He as a salesman knows that people are not looking for factual or honest. They are looking to be sold a vision that fits what they want. He knows how to sell it.

I fact check my friends all the time. I fact check Democrats all the time. You know what you get for that? You get called a know it all or ignored. Learned people are not loved in America save when they produce technology that common people can use to entertain themselves. The vast majority of Americans, people period really, view excessive displays of intelligence and honesty in a negative fashion. They like salesman, which is why smart lawyers or yappers win elections versus the most competent possible politician or individual that would run the nation well.

The majority don't even understand the science they accept as true the vast majority of the time and are incapable of determining the accuracy of the information they hold as true. They often believe on faith and vote on feeling. That is why Trump doesn't waste his time with honesty or facts because he's known for a long time that is not what sells to people.

What you say is true, but that wasn't my point. All I was doing was summarizing my observations as to how the debate went. The visuals that Biden gave are horrible. Ever since the Kennedy-Nixon debates, looks and style means everything in these live TV appearances. It's hard to tell if Biden is actually closing his eyes or glancing down at the podium, but it sure looks as if he's closing them. He walks by taking short steps, looks as if he needs a walker, acts as if he's constipated. He struggles to get his words out, got Russia mixed up with Ukraine. Trump may have the same age-related problems that Biden has, but he doesn't look or sound nearly as old as Biden does. Although what Trump said was mostly BS, his words came out strong and clear.

There's no way that the Dems can put a positive spin this debate. Sure, Trump lied his ass off, but that's nothing new. Calling him out on it isn't going to gain them anything. Biden's age and weak stature is going to lose this election for the Dems.

And I disagree with Stream Hawk. Kamala Harris nor any other Dem can beat Trump. I saw a poll this morning that pitted Trump against Gavin Newsom, and Trump beats him by 17 points. If Biden drops out, we're screwed.

[Stream Hawk]

What you say is true, but that wasn't my point. All I was doing was summarizing my observations as to how the debate went. The visuals that Biden gave are horrible. Ever since the Kennedy-Nixon debates, looks and style means everything in these live TV appearances. It's hard to tell if Biden is actually closing his eyes or glancing down at the podium, but it sure looks as if he's closing them. He walks by taking short steps, looks as if he needs a walker, acts as if he's constipated. He struggles to get his words out, got Russia mixed up with Ukraine. Trump may have the same age-related problems that Biden has, but he doesn't look or sound nearly as old as Biden does. Although what Trump said was mostly BS, his words came out strong and clear.

There's no way that the Dems can put a positive spin this debate. Sure, Trump lied his ass off, but that's nothing new. Calling him out on it isn't going to gain them anything. Biden's age and weak stature is going to lose this election for the Dems.

And I disagree with Stream Hawk. Kamala Harris nor any other Dem can beat Trump. I saw a poll this morning that pitted Trump against Gavin Newsom, and Trump beats him by 17 points. If Biden drops out, we're screwed.

That is a calculated risk that the Dems must make. Trump is so polarizing, I even think Bernie could take out Trump right now. Kamala could at least string sentences together! All it takes is someone with a tiny bit of fire to take out that conman. Biden is just too weak and old, and that will cause undecideds to simply NOT VOTE.

[River_Dog]

The fit is starting to hit the shan this morning as the Dems are in a tizzy over Biden's performance last night. Even liberal commentators from sources like CNN and MSNBC are jumping ship:

CNN broadcast the debate and it was immediately followed by John King’s harsh analysis that the Democratic Party may face trouble with Biden as their nominee.

"This was a game-changing debate in the sense that right now as we speak, there is a deep, a wide, and a very aggressive panic in the Democratic Party," King said.

"It involves party strategists, it involves elected officials, it involves fundraisers. And they're having conversations about the president's performance, which they think was dismal, which they think will hurt other people down the party in the ticket. And they're having conversations about what they should do about it."
King was one of the first talking heads to jettison his former defenses of the president, but he was far from the only one.

Here are three other Democratic political figures who are searching for solutions this morning.

Rachel Maddow, MSNBC
MSNBC host Rachel Maddow pushed back on special counsel Robert Hur’s assessment that Biden was an “elderly” man with a poor memory by highlighting Biden's ability to ride a bike.

In February, when Chris Hayes was discussing the fact that Biden’s age is a hard subject for his campaign as it’s not something he can necessarily run from, Maddow pointed out the presidency’s bike riding habits. “He rides a bike!” Maddow interjected, to which Hayes responded, “We should just be clear here, age is the central narrative question here that this all revolves around.”

Following the debate, Maddow contended it was hard to understand Biden due to weakness in his voice. “It was hard to hear what he was saying because his voice was so weak and his halting delivery in his first couple of answers has got to have put a shock into the campaign,” she said.

CNN anchor Abby Phillip had serious concerns about Biden’s fate as the Democratic nominee following the debate. She noted that Biden’s performance gave “some real damage done that cannot be undone,” to his reelection chances. “His answers in a lot of cases were not coherent,” Phillip said. “Deeply problematic that he was not able to take pretty straightforward answers, and answer them to the American public.”

“There’s a real concern here tonight that there’s been some real damage done that cannot be undone. Biden solidified the perception among voters, but especially among his base, they were hoping that tonight would be a game changer. They are now seeing a president who is in the White House who they do not necessarily believe can do this for another four years,” Phillip said.

Van Jones, a former Obama adviser turned CNN analyst, got choked up when talking about his personal feelings toward the president in relation to his debate performance. Last week, he said it was “game over” for Biden if he did not perform well at the debate.

“That was painful. I love Joe Biden. I worked for Joe Biden. He didn’t do well at all. He did not do well at all,” Jones said. “I love that guy. That’s a good man. He loves his country. He’s doing the best that he can, but he had a test to meet tonight to restore the confidence of the country and of the base. And he failed to do that.”

“We’re still far from our convention and there is time for this party to figure out a different way forward, but that was not what we needed from Joe Biden and it’s personally painful for a lot of people. It’s not just panic, it’s the pain of what we saw tonight,” Jones continued. Jones added that Biden lost the debate within “the first three minutes.”

Joy Reid, a host on MSNBC, also expressed concern about Biden’s performance. She said she spoke with sources and that her “phone really never stopped buzzing throughout” the debate from Democrats expressing concern about Biden seeming “weak.”

“Joe Biden’s job was to reassure them tonight. His job was to calm his party, to make them feel that, ‘Yes, I can do this. I have four more years in me. I have the ability and the stamina and the strength to do four more years.’ He did not do that,” Reid said. “He did the opposite of that. He made them more panicked. The people who were texting me were even more panicked," she said. "They actually expected it to be better than it was, and now they’re in, I won’t say a full-fledged panic, but it’s getting there."

The next debate is scheduled for Tuesday, Sept. 10, on ABC. The Biden campaign has said the president will participate in that event.

[River_Dog]

What you say is true, but that wasn't my point. All I was doing was summarizing my observations as to how the debate went. The visuals that Biden gave are horrible. Ever since the Kennedy-Nixon debates, looks and style means everything in these live TV appearances. It's hard to tell if Biden is actually closing his eyes or glancing down at the podium, but it sure looks as if he's closing them. He walks by taking short steps, looks as if he needs a walker, acts as if he's constipated. He struggles to get his words out, got Russia mixed up with Ukraine. Trump may have the same age-related problems that Biden has, but he doesn't look or sound nearly as old as Biden does. Although what Trump said was mostly BS, his words came out strong and clear.

There's no way that the Dems can put a positive spin this debate. Sure, Trump lied his ass off, but that's nothing new. Calling him out on it isn't going to gain them anything. Biden's age and weak stature is going to lose this election for the Dems.

And I disagree with Stream Hawk. Kamala Harris nor any other Dem can beat Trump. I saw a poll this morning that pitted Trump against Gavin Newsom, and Trump beats him by 17 points. If Biden drops out, we're screwed.

That is a calculated risk that the Dems must make. Trump is so polarizing, I even think Bernie could take out Trump right now. Kamala could at least string sentences together! All it takes is someone with a tiny bit of fire to take out that conman. Biden is just too weak and old, and that will cause undecideds to simply NOT VOTE.

Bernie is older than Biden, and even if he were 20 years younger, he's far too liberal to attract the swing voters who decide elections. The reason Biden was able to defeat Trump is because he was one of the few moderates in the party. Kamala Harris might fare a little better as at least she's younger and can run on Biden's record, but even amongst Democrats, 3 out of 5 of them say that she can't beat Trump head-to-head.

But I do agree that it looks like Biden is toast, and the Dems need to find another candidate and hope for the best.

[Aseahawkfan]

What you say is true, but that wasn't my point. All I was doing was summarizing my observations as to how the debate went. The visuals that Biden gave are horrible. Ever since the Kennedy-Nixon debates, looks and style means everything in these live TV appearances. It's hard to tell if Biden is actually closing his eyes or glancing down at the podium, but it sure looks as if he's closing them. He walks by taking short steps, looks as if he needs a walker, acts as if he's constipated. He struggles to get his words out, got Russia mixed up with Ukraine. Trump may have the same age-related problems that Biden has, but he doesn't look or sound nearly as old as Biden does. Although what Trump said was mostly BS, his words came out strong and clear.

There's no way that the Dems can put a positive spin this debate. Sure, Trump lied his ass off, but that's nothing new. Calling him out on it isn't going to gain them anything. Biden's age and weak stature is going to lose this election for the Dems.

And I disagree with Stream Hawk. Kamala Harris nor any other Dem can beat Trump. I saw a poll this morning that pitted Trump against Gavin Newsom, and Trump beats him by 17 points. If Biden drops out, we're screwed.

What about Newsom? Can he sell on a national scale? One of my buddies thinks the Dems will push Newsom against Trump with five months to build a national profile.

I also think the Dems have some real heavy duty ammo coming to take Trump out via legal attacks and very bad reveals like possibly The Apprentice tape of him using a slur which will take out his undecided support in these razor thin elections. If Biden can do better in future debates, he can maybe get back on track. One debate won't decide things this early.

[River_Dog]

What you say is true, but that wasn't my point. All I was doing was summarizing my observations as to how the debate went. The visuals that Biden gave are horrible. Ever since the Kennedy-Nixon debates, looks and style means everything in these live TV appearances. It's hard to tell if Biden is actually closing his eyes or glancing down at the podium, but it sure looks as if he's closing them. He walks by taking short steps, looks as if he needs a walker, acts as if he's constipated. He struggles to get his words out, got Russia mixed up with Ukraine. Trump may have the same age-related problems that Biden has, but he doesn't look or sound nearly as old as Biden does. Although what Trump said was mostly BS, his words came out strong and clear.

There's no way that the Dems can put a positive spin this debate. Sure, Trump lied his ass off, but that's nothing new. Calling him out on it isn't going to gain them anything. Biden's age and weak stature is going to lose this election for the Dems.

And I disagree with Stream Hawk. Kamala Harris nor any other Dem can beat Trump. I saw a poll this morning that pitted Trump against Gavin Newsom, and Trump beats him by 17 points. If Biden drops out, we're screwed.

What about Newsom? Can he sell on a national scale? One of my buddies thinks the Dems will push Newsom against Trump with five months to build a national profile.

Have you seen what kind of shape the state of CA is in? It's approaching a budget deficit of close to $50 billion. They've taxed the crap out of the rich to the point where they've killed the goose that laid the golden egg as they're moving out in droves. All the stuff we complain about here in WA, ie carbon tax, cageless eggs, etc, originated in CA and was signed into law by Newsom. He would be an easy target for Trump or any other R candidate. Plus, since CA is as blue as they come, he doesn't deliver any electoral votes that they wouldn't otherwise get like some other governors might. The latest polls show that Trump would beat Newsom by 17%. They'd be better off to nominate Harris.

I also think the Dems have some real heavy duty ammo coming to take Trump out via legal attacks and very bad reveals like possibly The Apprentice tape of him using a slur which will take out his undecided support in these razor thin elections. If Biden can do better in future debates, he can maybe get back on track. One debate won't decide things this early.

There's only one more presidential debate scheduled, and that's in September. Biden spent weeks preparing for this one and fell on his face, so I don't see him doing any better than he did last night. Unless something completely unpredictable happens, like a war, I don't think there's anything that can save us from another 4 years of Trump. If being convicted of a felony isn't big enough ammo to take him out, I can't see some scandal doing the trick.

The Democrats have nearly two months until their convention. It will be interesting to see if they can talk Biden out of accepting the nomination and handing it to someone else. My guess is that if it happens, they'll go with Harris.

[Aseahawkfan]

I can't imagine Trump winning again after all he's done, but I guess I've seen a lot of history and one more thing to add to it I guess. As you get older and see more, Roy Batty's end speech in Blade Runner becomes all the more meaningful. You see a lot in a life. I guess this will be one of the weirder political times once it is in the history books.

Can Trump pardon himself, RD? Can he do it?

[River_Dog]

I can't imagine Trump winning again after all he's done, but I guess I've seen a lot of history and one more thing to add to it I guess. As you get older and see more, Roy Batty's end speech in Blade Runner becomes all the more meaningful. You see a lot in a life. I guess this will be one of the weirder political times once it is in the history books.

Can Trump pardon himself, RD? Can he do it?

He can't pardon himself of a state crime, such as the one he was convicted of in New York. Presidential pardons only apply to federal crimes. But he can probably delay serving time until after his term expires. Under existing precedent, he can probably delay his trial in the Georgia election interference case until after he leaves office. But I'm no lawyer, so you'll have to take my opinion for what it's worth.

Trump is scheduled to be sentenced on July 11th, but it's extremely unlikely that he'll see any time behind bars. He's appealing the decision, and unless a person is a threat to society, they almost always delay the carrying out of the sentence until all appeals are exhausted. Plus, this is his first conviction, so he's probably going to get sentenced to a certain number of hours of community service and probation.

This really is a whacky time, and I worry about our country's future.

[Aseahawkfan]

He can't pardon himself of a state crime, such as the one he was convicted of in New York. Presidential pardons only apply to federal crimes. But he can probably delay serving time until after his term expires. Under existing precedent, he can probably delay his trial in the Georgia election interference case until after he leaves office. But I'm no lawyer, so you'll have to take my opinion for what it's worth.

Trump is scheduled to be sentenced on July 11th, but it's extremely unlikely that he'll see any time behind bars. He's appealing the decision, and unless a person is a threat to society, they almost always delay the carrying out of the sentence until all appeals are exhausted. Plus, this is his first conviction, so he's probably going to get sentenced to a certain number of hours of community service and probation.

This really is a whacky time, and I worry about our country's future.

Only the state governor can pardon a state crime? It would take the New York governor to pardon Trump? What if Trump is in Florida and Desantis refuses to extradite? Can New York police force extradition? Can states fight each other on criminals in their state? I haven't spent much time on his since it was never relevant until now in regards to a president.

[River_Dog]

There was a good opinion piece in the NYT, a decidedly liberal publication, and since there's a pay wall, I'll copy and paste it in its entirety:

President Biden is a good man who capped a long career in public service with a successful presidential term. But I hope he reviews his debate performance Thursday evening and withdraws from the race, throwing the choice of a Democratic nominee to the convention in August.

One of the perils facing this country, I believe and Biden believes, is the risk of a victory by Donald Trump. And after the debate, it’s hard to avoid the feeling that Biden remaining in the race increases the likelihood that Trump will move into the White House in January.

Biden has never been a great debater, but his voice and manner didn’t put to rest the doubts about his age and effectiveness. Rather, he amplified them. I happened to chat today with a woman who is undecided about whom to vote for — she says she distrusts both Trump and Biden but will choose based on who will do better for the economy — and I bet that now she will be supporting Trump.

In some sense, this may be unfair. This was one debate. A candidate’s physical frailty, hoarse voice and rambling responses may not be good predictors of how that person will govern. But in this election, they probably are good predictors that the candidate will lose in November and not have a chance to govern again.

We see the world through narratives, and one of the narratives about Biden is that he is too old. His performance reinforced that narrative when he needed to shatter it. Biden, unable to puncture Trump’s repeated falsehoods, allowed a convicted felon to win the debate.

Biden can resolve this by withdrawing from the race. There isn’t time to hold new primaries, but he could throw the choice of a successor to the Democratic National Convention in Chicago. The Democratic Party has some prominent figures who I think would be in a good position to defeat Trump in November, among them Gov. Gretchen Whitmer of Michigan, Senator Sherrod Brown of Ohio and Gina Raimondo, the secretary of commerce. And there are many others.

My phone has been blowing up with texts from people saying, as one put it: “Dear God. What are we going to do?” Another, also a fan of Biden, texted: “It’s imperative we change horses.” But Democrats have been reluctant to say this out loud and undermine Biden. So it will be up to Joe and Jill Biden to make this choice themselves.

This will be a wrenching choice. But, Mr. President, one way you can serve your country in 2024 is by announcing your retirement and calling on delegates to replace you, for that is the safest course for our nation.

[I-5]

What is the status of the presidential debates? Is it happening Sept 10 between the presumptive Democratic nominee Harris vs Trump, or will the wait until after it's official that Kamala is the nominee? Trump seems unsure whether debating Harris is a good idea or not. For once, I might agree with him, as I can see Harris putting her prosecutor hat on and treating Trump as a defendant, which she has promised she would. But if he doesn't debate her, how will he stop all the media attention her campaign is getting? I didn't expect this level of enthusiasm for her candidacy based on how quiet she's been the last 4 years, but reflecting on the current situation, it's an outlet for anyone who hates Trump, who was concerned about Joe's age, felt betrayed by the Supreme Court, or even republicans who can't stand Trump. Kamala benefits from each of those constituencies, and more.

[River Dog]

What is the status of the presidential debates? Is it happening Sept 10 between the presumptive Democratic nominee Harris vs Trump, or will the wait until after it's official that Kamala is the nominee? Trump seems unsure whether debating Harris is a good idea or not. For once, I might agree with him, as I can see Harris putting her prosecutor hat on and treating Trump as a defendant, which she has promised she would. But if he doesn't debate her, how will he stop all the media attention her campaign is getting? I didn't expect this level of enthusiasm for her candidacy based on how quiet she's been the last 4 years, but reflecting on the current situation, it's an outlet for anyone who hates Trump, who was concerned about Joe's age, felt betrayed by the Supreme Court, or even republicans who can't stand Trump. Kamala benefits from each of those constituencies, and more.

I don't think anything's been decided. Trump's handlers have been hedging. They may be waiting until after the DNC and see where the polls stand. They would have jumped at the opportunity had it been Sleepy Joe at the podium. If Trump is behind in the swing states, then he probably doesn't have a choice.

The campaign has definitely shifted. Whether or not the polls are accurate is debatable, but they can detect a shift in momentum. Harris has narrowed Trump's lead in the swing states. She has an opportunity to keep the ball rolling in her eventual VP selection and at the convention. I'm glad that she hasn't made her pick yet and hope that she holds off another week or so after all the i's have been dotted and t's crossed on her nomination, which they pretty much have.

I see where the NC Gov took his hat out of the VP ring. The lieutenant governor is an R so they'd be losing the governorship. There's been a lot of scuttlebutt over the MN governor, but I can't see him bringing more to the table than either Shapiro or Kelly.

[I-5]

Seems like the ideal running mate from Harris would be from a swing state, which would favor Josh Shapiro or Mark Kelly. I don't know how much the needle would move with Buttigieg as a running mate, but he is well spoken and knows how to connect with almost anyone that I won't be surprised if it's him. I'd say it's one of those 3, but we'll see.

[River Dog]

Seems like the ideal running mate from Harris would be from a swing state, which would favor Josh Shapiro or Mark Kelly. I don't know how much the needle would move with Buttigieg as a running mate, but he is well spoken and knows how to connect with almost anyone that I won't be surprised if it's him. I'd say it's one of those 3, but we'll see.

As I said, the MN Governor, Tim Waltz, has been popping up more and more, so I'd add his name to the list of possibilities. His characterization of Trump and Vance as being "weird" went viral and was repeated by Harris. I don't know much more about him.

Buttigieg is a bulldog, very well spoken, has a good command of the issues, and would be the perfect person to go on the attack during the campaign. But I'm convinced that the nation just isn't ready for a homosexual on a ticket that already has a woman of color at the top of it. It just looks too damn liberal to appeal to the moderates they're going to have to win over. Plus, Indiana isn't a swing state. If she takes him, she'll be making a big mistake.

[River Dog]

I read an interesting article about Florida possibly becoming a swing state.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics ... aeec&ei=11

Apparently, they have an issue on their November ballot that would protect abortion rights in their state constitution, which could draw voters more likely to vote Democratic, and they have a high-profile Senate race going on where the female challenger is showing some unexpected strength against the incumbent. Even before Biden dropped out, things were starting to move towards the D's, and now there's a lot of enthusiasm over Harris's candidacy.

Flipping Florida would be huge. Only Texas and California have more electoral votes. It would widen Harris's path to the 270 needed to win the election. If nothing else, with Florida back in play, it would force Trump to spend more time and resources shoring up his support there.

We just passed the 100-day mark until the election, and a lot could happen. But the momentum is definitely heading towards Harris and away from Trump. Someone needs to send a thank you note to Sleepy Joe.

[I-5]

Yes, I think Florida is always an interesting one, and HUGE as for electoral votes. I probably agree with you on the nation not being ready for a gay VP, but if there was ever a gay VPOTUS that nearly everyone would have a hard time not liking, it really is Buttigieg. Indiana isn't a swing state, but being a midwesterner is good as a balance to Harris' west coast roots. I'm not expectying him to be nominated, though I think he has a great demeanor. It would be pretty wild. Maybe next presidential election cycle.

[River Dog]

Yes, I think Florida is always an interesting one, and HUGE as for electoral votes. I probably agree with you on the nation not being ready for a gay VP, but if there was ever a gay VPOTUS that nearly everyone would have a hard time not liking, it really is Buttigieg. Indiana isn't a swing state, but being a midwesterner is good as a balance to Harris' west coast roots. I'm not expectying him to be nominated, though I think he has a great demeanor. It would be pretty wild. Maybe next presidential election cycle.

Don't get me wrong, I like Buttigieg, too, especially after seeing him being interviewed on Fox News Sunday. They need an attack dog on that ticket, especially going up against a lying trash talker like Trump in order to call him on all that garbage he throws out there. I'm just being pragmatic, that the country isn't ready for such a liberally oriented double whammy.

I could certainly see myself voting for someone like Buttigieg, but at this point, I don't know enough about his politics to say whether or not I'd want him in 2028, not to mention who his opponent might be. I'm hoping that by then, the R's will have finally given themselves an enema and rid themselves of Trump and Trumpism and I can go back to voting for Republicans.

[Aseahawkfan]

Trump has to debate Harris or he'll look weak and he hates to look weak.

[I-5]

What did you guys think of the debate? Did it move the needle? Personally, I don't think debates move the needle that much, but it was good to se them toe to toe. The first thing I noticed was that right away, Harris walked into Trump's space to shake his hand. Then she spent the whole night looking at him and calling him by name, and I never saw him look directly at her nor use her name. That was no accident on her part. Do I think either of them convinced the undecided voter? I only saw one that was trying, and it wasn't him.

[Aseahawkfan]

Didn't seem to move the needle, but that is good as all Harris had to do was maintain the status quo to win. Last time Biden was in there, he nuked himself.

Not sure they need another debate given less than two months left. Both have to hit the ground and win the votes in the swing states. No more time to waste jawing at each other.

[c_hawkbob]

Objectively Kamala kicked his arse. Didn't move the needle on the republican side but it did bump the needle among undecideds, which in this close a race shouldn't be discounted. The major impact came after the debate with Taylor Swift's endorsement, because that involves previously uncategorized voters from off the couch. And potentially a bunch of them.

[Aseahawkfan]

Right wing media saying polls show the undecideds moved more with Trump, specifically on the immigration issue, after the debate.

CNN saying debate did not move the needle much at all.

Man, I wonder how much the AI tracks. Conservative media polls now indicating Trump did badly during debate, but still not moving the needle much for election. We just discussed this and my article choices already changing. Man, the AI seem to be reading almost everything you are discussing at all times at this point.

[River Dog]

I didn't watch the debate as we were out of town and didn't have a good enough internet connection to be able to stream anything. My wife recorded it, but I'm unlikely to watch it.

From what I can gather, Trump lost the debate more than Harris winning it, that Harris didn't slam dunk him, that Trump hung himself by continuing to promote these idiotic and outlandish claims, like immigrants eating people's pets, and his continued personal attacks on his opponent that even his Republican advisors have tried to steer him away from doing may have turned off some undecided voters. It's going to take a few days for voters to digest the debate, but the sense I'm getting from the variety of news articles I've read on it is that while the consensus is that Trump lost the debate, that it hasn't moved the needle much.

Forget about the national polls. They're irrelevant. In all likelihood, Harris will win the popular vote, which is kinda like winning an office Christmas party gag gift. What we need to keep an eye on is 6-7 swing states, specifically the two big swing states, PA and MI. I've been watching the polls in those states closely, and what concerns me is that it's a dead heat. All of the swing state polls are well within the 3-4% margin of error, and when one considers the proven bias that exists in polling methods, particularly the fact that Republican voters and specifically Trump supporters, are less likely to respond to a pollster's question than a Democrat, it gives me a great deal of discomfort.

[I-5]

For not watching the debates, Riv, I think that's a pretty fair summary of how it went. Harris was definitely baiting him when she told him that he was fired by 81 million people, and mentioned his small crowd sizes and people leaving early out of boredom. If it was a cartoon, Trump's ears would have been steaming. Trump's handlers saw that coming a mile away, but could do nothing to stop him from taking the bait. What it says though is how easily he loses his composure, a quality no one wants to see in the most powerful office on earth. It was also interesting that despite the rules, ABC left Trump's mic on when he wouldn't finish his turn...which ended up showing more of his anger. So i the end, both Trump and Kamala got what they wanted - live mics.

The Taylor Swift endorsement after the debate is significant, as were the 330k new voter registrations that were recorded the next day using the special URL she posted on her Instagram. I'm guessing Travis Kelce is a Trump guy, but who knows? That would make for an interesting endorsement if he decides to come out with one. If anything, Kamala needs to work on the bro vote. If she can do that, she's well on her way. Unfortuantely, a lot of young males I think are attracted to the toxic appeal of Trump as a pretend strongman.