Will Biden Drop Out?

[River_Dog]

Nearly every objective observer felt that Sleepy Joe performed poorly in last Thursday's debate. Polls show that by a margin of 2-1, people thought that Trump won the debate. Biden's voice was weak and hoarse. He often times either closed his eyes or glanced at the floor, giving the impression that he was closing them, and the visual is more important than the actual. He frequently stuttered, was at a loss for words, got mixed up on several key points he was trying to make. The first lady had to hold his hand and escort him off the stage. For months, the Dem spinsters have been claiming that the multiple reports of Biden's mental decline were false, that most were inspired by Republicans seeking to gain an advantage. Thursday's debate reinforced what many of us already knew, that Joe Biden is in serious mental decline and is unfit to be the POTUS.

There aren't any more debates scheduled until September after the conventions. Even if the R's/Trump was stupid enough to agree to another before then, it's very unlikely that Biden could repair the damage done last Thursday and more than likely would bungle it even worse. Obviously, if the Dems are to change horses, they have to do it way before September.

So, assuming everyone agrees with the above and that the best move for the Democrats would be for Biden to bow down, will he, and if he does, who will or should take his place?

It's too late for a nominee to be selected via primary voting, so if Biden were to step down, it would be up to convention delegates to select a nominee. In some ways, that prospect appeals to me. I've felt for a long time that the primary system is broken, that it blindly selects the heir apparent, that it's all about money and volunteer networks, not about the pros and cons of various candidates. Sometimes, I think that we get better candidates via a smoke-filled rooms than through our primary system. Teddy Roosevelt and Harry Truman came to power by this method.

So, here is a short list of possible nominees: VP Kamala Harris, CA Governor Gavin Newsom, Illinois Gov. JB Pritzker, Michigan Gov. Gretchen Whitmer, Secretary of Transportation Pete Buttigieg, former nominee Hillary Clinton, even former first lady Michelle Obama has been mentioned.

I don't know much about Pritzker or Whitmer, but I do know that Hillary, even if she wanted it, would be an abortion. Gavin Newsom has some huge liabilities in the form of the current status of the state of California and would be an easy target. I don't think that the country is ready for a homosexual as their moral leader, so no to Buttigieg. To me, the only viable alternative is Kamala Harris.

My take is that I don't think there's any Democrat out there that can beat Trump, but it's becoming a foregone conclusion that Biden can't so they might as well dump him and hope for the best.

[curmudgeon]

So, here is a short list of possible nominees: VP Kamala Harris, CA Governor Gavin Newsom, Illinois Gov. JB Pritzker, Michigan Gov. Gretchen Whitmer, Secretary of Transportation Pete Buttigieg, former nominee Hillary Clinton, even former first lady Michelle Obama has been mentioned.

This list, including Biden, is a murder’s row, an embarrassment of riches even. No way the Democrats lose……

[Stream Hawk]

Nearly every objective observer felt that Sleepy Joe performed poorly in last Thursday's debate. Polls show that by a margin of 2-1, people thought that Trump won the debate. Biden's voice was weak and hoarse. He often times either closed his eyes or glanced at the floor, giving the impression that he was closing them, and the visual is more important than the actual. He frequently stuttered, was at a loss for words, got mixed up on several key points he was trying to make. The first lady had to hold his hand and escort him off the stage. For months, the Dem spinsters have been claiming that the multiple reports of Biden's mental decline were false, that most were inspired by Republicans seeking to gain an advantage. Thursday's debate reinforced what many of us already knew, that Joe Biden is in serious mental decline and is unfit to be the POTUS.

There aren't any more debates scheduled until September after the conventions. Even if the R's/Trump was stupid enough to agree to another before then, it's very unlikely that Biden could repair the damage done last Thursday and more than likely would bungle it even worse. Obviously, if the Dems are to change horses, they have to do it way before September.

So, assuming everyone agrees with the above and that the best move for the Democrats would be for Biden to bow down, will he, and if he does, who will or should take his place?

It's too late for a nominee to be selected via primary voting, so if Biden were to step down, it would be up to convention delegates to select a nominee. In some ways, that prospect appeals to me. I've felt for a long time that the primary system is broken, that it blindly selects the heir apparent, that it's all about money and volunteer networks, not about the pros and cons of various candidates. Sometimes, I think that we get better candidates via a smoke-filled rooms than through our primary system. Teddy Roosevelt and Harry Truman came to power by this method.

So, here is a short list of possible nominees: VP Kamala Harris, CA Governor Gavin Newsom, Illinois Gov. JB Pritzker, Michigan Gov. Gretchen Whitmer, Secretary of Transportation Pete Buttigieg, former nominee Hillary Clinton, even former first lady Michelle Obama has been mentioned.

I don't know much about Pritzker or Whitmer, but I do know that Hillary, even if she wanted it, would be an abortion. Gavin Newsom has some huge liabilities in the form of the current status of the state of California and would be an easy target. I don't think that the country is ready for a homosexual as their moral leader, so no to Buttigieg. To me, the only viable alternative is Kamala Harris.

My take is that I don't think there's any Democrat out there that can beat Trump, but it's becoming a foregone conclusion that Biden can't so they might as well dump him and hope for the best.

I know quite a bit about Gretchen Whitmer. I think she’s tough and seems to be an up-and-coming star for the Democrats. She could beat Trump. I do not think Hillary would be an abortion, but I like that analogy! I’m still of the mindset that Trump is so beatable as long as his opponent can put together a freaking sentence. Biden simply can’t and he’s not going to get better. I hope they are having serious discussions about opening the convention to this. Hopefully Barack and Jill can convince Joe to let this happen.

Also, Teddy Roosevelt became president because he was the VP to McKinley who was assassinated. Did you mean FDR?

[River_Dog]

I know quite a bit about Gretchen Whitmer. I think she’s tough and seems to be an up-and-coming star for the Democrats. She could beat Trump. I do not think Hillary would be an abortion, but I like that analogy! I’m still of the mindset that Trump is so beatable as long as his opponent can put together a freaking sentence. Biden simply can’t and he’s not going to get better. I hope they are having serious discussions about opening the convention to this. Hopefully Barack and Jill can convince Joe to let this happen.

The one advantage that Whitmer would have over Harris and Newsom is that she comes from a purple state and could help in the electoral college. California will vote Democratic no matter who the candidate is. Except for Hillary, anyone they pick is going to have a name recognition problem and not much time to 'advertise' themselves.

Trump is beatable, but only if they nominate the right candidate. Hillary is yesterday's news. She has a huge amount of baggage, can motivate Trump's base to turn out in November. Except for Trump, she had the highest negative rating of any major party nominee since they started doing surveys during Eisenhower's time. And don't forget, she had a stolen election conspiracy theory of her own, blamed her loss on Russian election interference.

As I said, the state of CA is in shambles, and much of it can be laid directly at Newsom's feet. Harris is also from CA, but as a Senator, she can't be held accountable for the state government. Buttigieg is a non-starter due to his sexual orientation.

Also, Teddy Roosevelt became president because he was the VP to McKinley who was assassinated. Did you mean FDR?

I meant TR. As you said, he succeeded McKinley after he was assassinated. Same with Truman who succeeded FDR when he died a couple months after the inauguration.

The reason they put TR, then governor of NY, on the ticket was to get him out of the way as he considered a pain in the ass. The party hated him and making him VP was a dead-end job and they could silence him for at least 4 years. A similar situation was at work with Truman. The party moderates wanted the liberal Henry Wallace out, and FDR didn't really care who ran with him and let the convention select his running mate. Truman was a compromise, a moderate that was relatively unknown at the time.

Both were 'accidental' presidents, picked in a smoke-filled room by party bosses and not expected to be a POTUS. They both turned out to be very good POTUS's IMO, although Truman was hugely unpopular when he left office, but history has been more kind to him than his contemporaries were.

[Stream Hawk]

Thanks for the history lesson. I admit I’m definitely not up on historical politics. I did hear that the Republican party thought TR was too much of a wildcard, and they hid him as a VP. I agree both were very good Presidents. I didn’t know that Truman had such a low popularity rating when he was done; do you know why?

For our current sh*t show, obviously there won’t be a smoke filled room, but I do think something might actually happen. Here’s a good article today from New York Times: https://www.nytimes.com/2024/06/29/us/p ... ticleShare

[Aseahawkfan]

I don't think Biden should step down. Debates in June do not decide elections in November. Debates rarely decide elections period.

People vote for a party, not a president. I expect a lot of bomb dropping near election time and the PACs start pushing out ads closer to the election.

I think the Democrats are waiting until closer to the election to pull out the big guns against Trump. And vice versa.

I fully expect another razor thin election unless something really bad is dropped on Trump or Biden.

I think it is hard to build a national profile which Trump had going into his election via his TV shows and still has via constant TV attention no one seems able to stop giving him. I don't count Biden out as soon as others. He was old the first time. He's old now. So is Trump. It's just come down to a battle of two old men and I almost feel it is the older people of the nation on both sides driving it as they go head to head through these candidates. Changing right now would just split the Democrat vote too much at this point.

[River_Dog]

Thanks for the history lesson. I admit I’m definitely not up on historical politics. I did hear that the Republican party thought TR was too much of a wildcard, and they hid him as a VP. I agree both were very good Presidents. I didn’t know that Truman had such a low popularity rating when he was done; do you know why?

Truman's conduct of the Korean War was a big issue, with most Americans wanting a more aggressive approach. He was seen as weak and ineffective. He fired a very popular WW2 general, Douglas McArthur, over a disagreement on how to prosecute the war. His popularity dropped to 33%, worse than Trump or Biden. Only Richard Nixon at the end of Watergate had a worse approval rating. Truman himself said that he couldn't be elected dog catcher. But most historians agree that Truman was right to have fired McArthur.

For our current sh*t show, obviously there won’t be a smoke filled room, but I do think something might actually happen. Here’s a good article today from New York Times: https://www.nytimes.com/2024/06/29/us/p ... ticleShare

Interesting article. I don't know how much impact the donors will have, but I do agree that something is likely to happen.

[River_Dog]

I don't think Biden should step down. Debates in June do not decide elections in November. Debates rarely decide elections period.

People vote for a party, not a president. I expect a lot of bomb dropping near election time and the PACs start pushing out ads closer to the election.

I think the Democrats are waiting until closer to the election to pull out the big guns against Trump. And vice versa.

I fully expect another razor thin election unless something really bad is dropped on Trump or Biden.

I think it is hard to build a national profile which Trump had going into his election via his TV shows and still has via constant TV attention no one seems able to stop giving him. I don't count Biden out as soon as others. He was old the first time. He's old now. So is Trump. It's just come down to a battle of two old men and I almost feel it is the older people of the nation on both sides driving it as they go head to head through these candidates. Changing right now would just split the Democrat vote too much at this point.

Back in February, the special council in the investigation into Biden's handling of classified documents decided not to press charges because any jury would be sympathetic to a “well-meaning, elderly man with a poor memory” who had “diminished faculties in advancing age” and giving examples, like not being able to remember within a few years when his son died. There's been others, mostly Republicans but also some objective observers, who have come out of meetings with him saying that he's in obvious mental decline. The Dems have spent the last 6 months on the defensive, trying to spin out of it. Biden himself has vociferously denied it. Trivialize it if you like, but Biden needed this debate to change that narrative, but instead, he's reinforced it.

Biden has held the fewest press conference of any POTUS for the past 100 years except for Nixon during Watergate and Reagan, our 2nd oldest POTUS, during Iran-Contra. He hasn't held a single press conference so far this year. Despite promising to “bring transparency and truth back to the government,” in his first three years, he's granted the fewest interviews since Reagan. Trump granted 4 times the number of interviews that Biden has. His staff has known for months if not years what we all were treated to Thursday.

There's only one more debate scheduled. All other appearances will be tightly choreographed. Biden might be able to reclaim some of the damage if he were to grant a no notes, no teleprompter live interview with an unbiased moderator, but unless he comes out and nails the September debate, we'll be left with the impression he gave us last Thursday.

[Aseahawkfan]

Back in February, the special council in the investigation into Biden's handling of classified documents decided not to press charges because any jury would be sympathetic to a “well-meaning, elderly man with a poor memory” who had “diminished faculties in advancing age” and giving examples, like not being able to remember within a few years when his son died. There's been others, mostly Republicans but also some objective observers, who have come out of meetings with him saying that he's in obvious mental decline. The Dems have spent the last 6 months on the defensive, trying to spin out of it. Biden himself has vociferously denied it. Trivialize it if you like, but Biden needed this debate to change that narrative, but instead, he's reinforced it.

Biden has held the fewest press conference of any POTUS for the past 100 years except for Nixon during Watergate and Reagan, our 2nd oldest POTUS, during Iran-Contra. He hasn't held a single press conference so far this year. Despite promising to “bring transparency and truth back to the government,” in his first three years, he's granted the fewest interviews since Reagan. Trump granted 4 times the number of interviews that Biden has. His staff has known for months if not years what we all were treated to Thursday.

There's only one more debate scheduled. All other appearances will be tightly choreographed. Biden might be able to reclaim some of the damage if he were to grant a no notes, no teleprompter live interview with an unbiased moderator, but unless he comes out and nails the September debate, we'll be left with the impression he gave us last Thursday.

Voter psychology indicates they care very little about debates which is why they have so few.

People are entrenched in their positions. Democratic voters won't be suddenly vote Republican because Biden is old and Republican Trump voters won't vote for Biden because Trump's a lying piece of trash.

Biden was old the first election. He's old now. Trump was banging pornstars and accused of hush money back in 2016 and 2020 and so much more had been revealed about him, still almost won in 2020. I think the pandemic hurt him more than anything else because it prevented him from working his salesman talk at rallies and his obvious public mishandling of the pandemic which it seems he's shoved Fauci in front of the bus for while his Republican attack dogs and brainwashed followers act like Fauci would override Trump or make decisions over everyone without approval. Trump badly managing the PR of COVID and then left Fauci to be beaten by his Republican sycophants to make sure none of the COVID crap stuck to Trump.

These campaigns will be managed by big party machines. If one of them decides Biden must be replaced, they'll do it. I don't think they will because replacing a president has other repercussions like making the Democratic Party look like they made a bad choice to start with and dividing the vote between the Biden supporters and the rest of the Democratic Party.

Even if Biden were on top of his game, Democrats have problems. They have a lot of divisions within their party at the moment. It's going to come down to the wire again. Even many Republicans seem not too greatly enamored of Trump. Democrats are dividing on certain key issues, but so are Republicans.

It will be another wild election in my opinion. I don't think you can call it this early at all. I think unless the Democrats truly believe behind the scenes Biden is done, then they won't replace him because that would worsen their chances against Trump who next month is getting sentenced and still has a lot of ammo against him when the attack ads showing January 6th remind America of what kind of person Trump is if he gets in office.

I'd call this pretty far from over after this first debate even with some Democrats acting like they've already lost.

[River_Dog]

Voter psychology indicates they care very little about debates which is why they have so few.

They don't care about the content of debates, but they do care about the one liners and the graphics.

People are entrenched in their positions. Democratic voters won't be suddenly vote Republican because Biden is old and Republican Trump voters won't vote for Biden because Trump's a lying piece of trash.

Biden was old the first election. He's old now. Trump was banging pornstars and accused of hush money back in 2016 and 2020 and so much more had been revealed about him, still almost won in 2020. I think the pandemic hurt him more than anything else because it prevented him from working his salesman talk at rallies and his obvious public mishandling of the pandemic which it seems he's shoved Fauci in front of the bus for while his Republican attack dogs and brainwashed followers act like Fauci would override Trump or make decisions over everyone without approval. Trump badly managing the PR of COVID and then left Fauci to be beaten by his Republican sycophants to make sure none of the COVID crap stuck to Trump.

These campaigns will be managed by big party machines. If one of them decides Biden must be replaced, they'll do it. I don't think they will because replacing a president has other repercussions like making the Democratic Party look like they made a bad choice to start with and dividing the vote between the Biden supporters and the rest of the Democratic Party.

Even if Biden were on top of his game, Democrats have problems. They have a lot of divisions within their party at the moment. It's going to come down to the wire again. Even many Republicans seem not too greatly enamored of Trump. Democrats are dividing on certain key issues, but so are Republicans.

It will be another wild election in my opinion. I don't think you can call it this early at all. I think unless the Democrats truly believe behind the scenes Biden is done, then they won't replace him because that would worsen their chances against Trump who next month is getting sentenced and still has a lot of ammo against him when the attack ads showing January 6th remind America of what kind of person Trump is if he gets in office.

I'd call this pretty far from over after this first debate even with some Democrats acting like they've already lost.

"Some" Democrats are acting like it's already lost? Have you been reading the headlines even from the most liberal of sources? Did you read Stream Hawk's article? Of course, very few of the elected Dems or those in the Administration that are going to come out and call for Biden to step down. But you can get the drift from all of the donors, former advisors, liberal leaning publications, and other credible sources that are calling on him to do the right thing and hand the baton to someone else.

I saw this first hand in the months just before Nixon resigned. Lots and lots of smoke with the POTUS and his supporters pretending that there wasn't a fire up until the last day or two. I have to believe that the higher ups in the Democratic party are in full panic mode.

[Aseahawkfan]

"Some" Democrats are acting like it's already lost? Have you been reading the headlines even from the most liberal of sources? Did you read Stream Hawk's article? Of course, very few of the elected Dems or those in the Administration that are going to come out and call for Biden to step down. But you can get the drift from all of the donors, former advisors, liberal leaning publications, and other credible sources that are calling on him to do the right thing and hand the baton to someone else.

I saw this first hand in the months just before Nixon resigned. Lots and lots of smoke with the POTUS and his supporters pretending that there wasn't a fire up until the last day or two. I have to believe that the higher ups in the Democratic party are in full panic mode.

They all pretend. Fact is Democrats have no good options or they would already have had someone other than Biden run.

The Democratic Party is as crazy as the Republicans and when sane voters look at them, they see an insane clown dressed as three genders handing out needles to drug addicts and calling cops names, but when Democrats look in the mirror they somehow see a sane person making sane decisions because the person they are comparing their party to is Donald Trump.

The Republican Crazies see Trump as some hard fighting, won't give up president who will make America great again, while sane voters see Trump as a selfish, narcissistic man who self-inflicted his legal problems and isn't tough for using all his donations to fight legal battles to keep him out of jail for screwing pornstars. He's an idiot whose mouth and entitled attitude keeps putting him in situations his lawyers (which he keeps changing) have to dig him out of.

The majority of people that will decide this election fall into camps that will vote for their candidate based on nothing other than the they think the other guy is death for America.

I literally hear the same stuff out of both of their mouths that If Trump wins, it's the end of Democracy. If Biden wins, we're all doomed by Democrats tyrannical abuse of the government system to punish anyone who disagrees with them.

If you're selling these candidates as the end of America if either wins, do you really care if one is old and the other is a narcissstic asshat? Seems not according to the last two elections.

I guess we'll see. I'm not sure what you're expecting RD. Some kind of landslide for Trump? I'm doubting that. If the Democrats change candidates, they get a landslide? I doubt it.

All see is another razor thin election that will lead to a bunch of handwringing and accusations and complaints like we've had the last two elections. Then four years of business as usual as long as we don't get another pandemic. I can survive four years of Trump and four years of Biden just as I've done and America has done already.

[NorthHawk]

Nearly every objective observer felt that Sleepy Joe performed poorly in last Thursday's debate. Polls show that by a margin of 2-1, people thought that Trump won the debate. Biden's voice was weak and hoarse. He often times either closed his eyes or glanced at the floor, giving the impression that he was closing them, and the visual is more important than the actual. He frequently stuttered, was at a loss for words, got mixed up on several key points he was trying to make. The first lady had to hold his hand and escort him off the stage. For months, the Dem spinsters have been claiming that the multiple reports of Biden's mental decline were false, that most were inspired by Republicans seeking to gain an advantage. Thursday's debate reinforced what many of us already knew, that Joe Biden is in serious mental decline and is unfit to be the POTUS.

There aren't any more debates scheduled until September after the conventions. Even if the R's/Trump was stupid enough to agree to another before then, it's very unlikely that Biden could repair the damage done last Thursday and more than likely would bungle it even worse. Obviously, if the Dems are to change horses, they have to do it way before September.

So, assuming everyone agrees with the above and that the best move for the Democrats would be for Biden to bow down, will he, and if he does, who will or should take his place?

It's too late for a nominee to be selected via primary voting, so if Biden were to step down, it would be up to convention delegates to select a nominee. In some ways, that prospect appeals to me. I've felt for a long time that the primary system is broken, that it blindly selects the heir apparent, that it's all about money and volunteer networks, not about the pros and cons of various candidates. Sometimes, I think that we get better candidates via a smoke-filled rooms than through our primary system. Teddy Roosevelt and Harry Truman came to power by this method.

So, here is a short list of possible nominees: VP Kamala Harris, CA Governor Gavin Newsom, Illinois Gov. JB Pritzker, Michigan Gov. Gretchen Whitmer, Secretary of Transportation Pete Buttigieg, former nominee Hillary Clinton, even former first lady Michelle Obama has been mentioned.

I don't know much about Pritzker or Whitmer, but I do know that Hillary, even if she wanted it, would be an abortion. Gavin Newsom has some huge liabilities in the form of the current status of the state of California and would be an easy target. I don't think that the country is ready for a homosexual as their moral leader, so no to Buttigieg. To me, the only viable alternative is Kamala Harris.

My take is that I don't think there's any Democrat out there that can beat Trump, but it's becoming a foregone conclusion that Biden can't so they might as well dump him and hope for the best.

Jimmy Carter only served 1 term.
Just sayin'...

[River_Dog]

They all pretend. Fact is Democrats have no good options or they would already have had someone other than Biden run.

The Democratic Party is as crazy as the Republicans and when sane voters look at them, they see an insane clown dressed as three genders handing out needles to drug addicts and calling cops names, but when Democrats look in the mirror they somehow see a sane person making sane decisions because the person they are comparing their party to is Donald Trump.

The Republican Crazies see Trump as some hard fighting, won't give up president who will make America great again, while sane voters see Trump as a selfish, narcissistic man who self-inflicted his legal problems and isn't tough for using all his donations to fight legal battles to keep him out of jail for screwing pornstars. He's an idiot whose mouth and entitled attitude keeps putting him in situations his lawyers (which he keeps changing) have to dig him out of.

The majority of people that will decide this election fall into camps that will vote for their candidate based on nothing other than the they think the other guy is death for America.

I literally hear the same stuff out of both of their mouths that If Trump wins, it's the end of Democracy. If Biden wins, we're all doomed by Democrats tyrannical abuse of the government system to punish anyone who disagrees with them.

If you're selling these candidates as the end of America if either wins, do you really care if one is old and the other is a narcissstic asshat? Seems not according to the last two elections.

I guess we'll see. I'm not sure what you're expecting RD. Some kind of landslide for Trump? I'm doubting that. If the Democrats change candidates, they get a landslide? I doubt it.

All see is another razor thin election that will lead to a bunch of handwringing and accusations and complaints like we've had the last two elections. Then four years of business as usual as long as we don't get another pandemic. I can survive four years of Trump and four years of Biden just as I've done and America has done already.

I'm not predicting anything. All I'm saying is that if Biden doesn't change the narrative, that he's not going to win the election, and that the Democrats know that. Sure, it's early. But in order for this narrative to be changed, Biden is going to have to perform a lot better than he did Thursday, and there is nothing anyone can say that would cause me to think that he has the ability to improve his performance.

It will be interesting to see how this story develops. My guess is that Biden will probably step down, but I wouldn't want to put a lot of money on it. If he doesn't, might as well strap yourself in for another 4 years of the orange baboon.

[Aseahawkfan]

I'm not predicting anything. All I'm saying is that if Biden doesn't change the narrative, that he's not going to win the election, and that the Democrats know that. Sure, it's early. But in order for this narrative to be changed, Biden is going to have to perform a lot better than he did Thursday, and there is nothing anyone can say that would cause me to think that he has the ability to improve his performance.

It will be interesting to see how this story develops. My guess is that Biden will probably step down, but I wouldn't want to put a lot of money on it. If he doesn't, might as well strap yourself in for another 4 years of the orange baboon.

I didn't stress much with the first four years of the orange baboon until the pandemic came and he handled it like a complete idiot out of his element. We needed real leadership and he was worried about the economy, his re-election, and how his ideas were being received by his constituents. It's a fricking pandemic. You have to actually lead without worrying about the other things. He couldn't manage it.

At least Biden got us to other side of the pandemic without causing a bunch of acrimony and division throwing his main doctors under the bus.

I tuned out for most of Trump's four years. I've tuned out for most of Biden's four years. I'll do the same if either one wins.

The fact we've already survived four years of Trump and four years of Biden, I don't worry much about it. The pandemic I think caused most of the crazy. People stuck in their houses during an election watching their lives wither. Some real bad stuff happened beyond the sickness, much of it due to the lockdown policies of the Democrats which I think led to higher rates of suicide, depression, PTSD, and kids having their education and lives stunted. And Trump helped create this total of lack of an intelligent response by using the pandemic as a means to further polarize American politics pushing everyone to take extreme positions. Bad person to have in office for certain during a pandemic.

The pandemic is over now. It will be four years of business as usual. Markets are up. Unemployment is down. Inflation is coming under control. Trump might actually be better for the economy, though maybe worse for international relations. Though in my opinion with no need to run again, Trump will likely just coast along doing whatever feels like doing since he doesn't have to run again or care about making his followers happy. First term he was more concerned with re-election, so was focused on doing everything to make that happen. Second term I think he'll focus more on rebuilding his reputation and making peace.

But who knows. The pandemic threw everything off and took us to crazy land. I don't see that happening again regardless of who wins. Too many people have too much to lose at this point and are too busy with their lives to do another January 6th.

I don't think replacing Biden gives the Dems a better chance to win unless there is some surprise candidate that can build a national profile and attract middle voters.

[River_Dog]

I don't think replacing Biden gives the Dems a better chance to win unless there is some surprise candidate that can build a national profile and attract middle voters.

Yeah, that's the problem with replacing Biden. Outside of Hillary, there isn't a Democrat with very good name recognition. Even Kamala Harris, despite being the sitting VP, isn't widely recognized. She would still have to come out of Biden's shadow and define herself. That's the problem with vice presidents. They don't make any policy decisions or vote on or propose legislation.

There are 7 swing states where the election will be won or lost: PA, MI, GA, AZ, WI, NV, and NC, so it would make sense to look for a candidate that could deliver their home state, and the two biggest are PA and MI, both with Democratic governors whose names have been tossed around as a possible replacement if Biden were to step down.

Josh Shapiro, age 51, who was just elected governor of PA in 2022, looks like he might appeal to moderates. He supports cutting the corporate tax rate in PA from 10% to 4%, proposed hiring 2,000 more police officers, opposes vaccine mandates and instead prefers educating the public about them, supports enhancing vocational programs at the high school level, wants to expand apprenticeships and union skills programs, etc. Those types of positions could appeal to the middle-class, blue-collar types that make up a good chunk of swing voters. But like most of the other names being thrown around, he doesn't have name recognition.

[Aseahawkfan]

Yeah, that's the problem with replacing Biden. Outside of Hillary, there isn't a Democrat with very good name recognition. Even Kamala Harris, despite being the sitting VP, isn't widely recognized. She would still have to come out of Biden's shadow and define herself. That's the problem with vice presidents. They don't make any policy decisions or vote on or propose legislation.

There are 7 swing states where the election will be won or lost: PA, MI, GA, AZ, WI, NV, and NC, so it would make sense to look for a candidate that could deliver their home state, and the two biggest are PA and MI, both with Democratic governors whose names have been tossed around as a possible replacement if Biden were to step down.

Josh Shapiro, age 51, who was just elected governor of PA in 2022, looks like he might appeal to moderates. He supports cutting the corporate tax rate in PA from 10% to 4%, proposed hiring 2,000 more police officers, opposes vaccine mandates and instead prefers educating the public about them, supports enhancing vocational programs at the high school level, wants to expand apprenticeships and union skills programs, etc. Those types of positions could appeal to the middle-class, blue-collar types that make up a good chunk of swing voters. But like most of the other names being thrown around, he doesn't have name recognition.

Josh Shapiro is Jewish. Wake up to reality. Religion still matters to the Democrats as much as they pretend it doesn't. A Jewish candidate while we're supporting a war with Israel would get destroyed as the Democratic candidate worse than Biden. Are you seriously not paying attention to the anti-Jewish, anti-Israel sentiment in the Democratic Party? You put a Jewish candidate as Democratic presidential candidate right now, you might as well tell Trump to just sit at home and wait for November while watching the Democratic vote split apart at the seams as the anti-Jewish and minority groups don't even bother to vote or vote for odd candidates or Trump. I would not be surprised if the anti-Israel branch of the Democratic Party costs Biden this election, much less if you put an actual Jewish candidate front and center while you have a growing anti-Israel, pro-Palestine voting bloc in the Democratic Party.

I'm not even sure a moderate would appeal to Democratic voters right now. You have to do two things as a presidential candidate which is what the Republican challengers to Trump couldn't pull off: keep most of your base while winning over swing voters. I think only Biden can do that right now because of how the Democratic Party has splintered.

You talk about me downplaying Biden's dementia, you seriously downplay religion in politics and how much it matters. Even back when Romney ran, I knew more than a few Republican voters who would not vote for him solely because he is Mormon. I still recall talking to one woman about Romney, first thing out of her mouth: "He's a Mormon. " You could tell she did not trust that religion.

A Democratic moderate has to be from a tolerable racial group with a middle of the road religion and enough crazy to to maintain the base with enough of a moderate view to attract swing voters. A woman could probably pull it off at this point, but I doubt a non-Christian can, especially not while we're supporting a war with Israel. Christians by default have become the peacekeeper between Muslims and Jews even though many Muslims view America as run by Jews.

That's one thing you do not pay much attention to: the way minorities view each other. You probably have no idea that there is beef between Jewish people and black folk. I'm surprised you don't recall the Jesse Jackson "Himeytown" incident from way back when. There are far worse anti-Jewish people within the black community than Jesse Jackson by far including Farrahkan and other quieter pastors teaching black folk they are the original Jewish people and other such stuff. That sentiment still exists though black folk tend to not talk it up much because it's a Democrat "dirty little secret" that you can learn about by digging into how these relations go.

It's why I laugh when the Democrats claim to be less racist or prejudice than Republicans. You only believe that if you don't know about their voting blocs or politician's histories.

[River_Dog]

Josh Shapiro is Jewish. Wake up to reality. Religion still matters to the Democrats as much as they pretend it doesn't. A Jewish candidate while we're supporting a war with Israel would get destroyed as the Democratic candidate worse than Biden. Are you seriously not paying attention to the anti-Jewish, anti-Israel sentiment in the Democratic Party? You put a Jewish candidate as Democratic presidential candidate right now, you might as well tell Trump to just sit at home and wait for November while watching the Democratic vote split apart at the seams as the anti-Jewish and minority groups don't even bother to vote or vote for odd candidates or Trump. I would not be surprised if the anti-Israel branch of the Democratic Party costs Biden this election, much less if you put an actual Jewish candidate front and center while you have a growing anti-Israel, pro-Palestine voting bloc in the Democratic Party.

I'm not even sure a moderate would appeal to Democratic voters right now. You have to do two things as a presidential candidate which is what the Republican challengers to Trump couldn't pull off: keep most of your base while winning over swing voters. I think only Biden can do that right now because of how the Democratic Party has splintered.

You talk about me downplaying Biden's dementia, you seriously downplay religion in politics and how much it matters. Even back when Romney ran, I knew more than a few Republican voters who would not vote for him solely because he is Mormon. I still recall talking to one woman about Romney, first thing out of her mouth: "He's a Mormon. " You could tell she did not trust that religion.

A Democratic moderate has to be from a tolerable racial group with a middle of the road religion and enough crazy to to maintain the base with enough of a moderate view to attract swing voters. A woman could probably pull it off at this point, but I doubt a non-Christian can, especially not while we're supporting a war with Israel. Christians by default have become the peacekeeper between Muslims and Jews even though many Muslims view America as run by Jews.

That's one thing you do not pay much attention to: the way minorities view each other. You probably have no idea that there is beef between Jewish people and black folk. I'm surprised you don't recall the Jesse Jackson "Himeytown" incident from way back when. There are far worse anti-Jewish people within the black community than Jesse Jackson by far including Farrahkan and other quieter pastors teaching black folk they are the original Jewish people and other such stuff. That sentiment still exists though black folk tend to not talk it up much because it's a Democrat "dirty little secret" that you can learn about by digging into how these relations go.

It's why I laugh when the Democrats claim to be less racist or prejudice than Republicans. You only believe that if you don't know about their voting blocs or politician's histories.

To be honest, I didn't realize that Shapiro was Jewish, and yes, you have a point about a Jewish candidate, or Arab as far as that goes, running during a time that there's a war going on of which we've already taken sides. Religion still makes a difference with some voters and could impact a close election. But it's not near the deal breaker that it used to be, and I think that you're overstating its effect.

You're going way back in time quoting Jesse Jackson and his "Himeytown" remark. That was 40 years ago. Luis Farrahkan is 91 years old. Surely you can come up with some more timely, contemporary examples instead of reaching back 4 decades to prove your point.

[Aseahawkfan]

To be honest, I didn't realize that Shapiro was Jewish, and yes, you have a point about a Jewish candidate, or Arab as far as that goes, running during a time that there's a war going on of which we've already taken sides. Religion still makes a difference with some voters and could impact a close election. But it's not near the deal breaker that it used to be, and I think that you're overstating its effect.

You're going way back in time quoting Jesse Jackson and his "Himeytown" remark. That was 40 years ago. Luis Farrahkan is 91 years old. Surely you can come up with some more timely, contemporary examples instead of reaching back 4 decades to prove your point.

We have had two Catholic presidents. Joe Biden is the second. Catholics are the second largest religious denomination in America.

The "Himeytown" Remark is from 1984, you can find more recent anti-Jewish talk in the black community. I used to sit on the bus on my way to work listening to a black dude talk to other black dudes he attended the same Church with talking about how black people are the real Jews and they were robbed of their position by the white Jews. This was about 7 years ago. You can spend time researching it, but the Jewish and black community have a weird relationship. Almost a love hate relationship. Islam is strong in the black community due to Farrahkan, which is why I bring him up. Guys you wouldn't know are Islam are people like Mike Tyson, Dave Chapelle, and Kyrie Irving. Then you have Asian prejudice towards folk of African descent even though they tend to vote Democrat as well. Once you dig into these categories, you see this weird web of voting blocs balanced by the W.A.S.P. group almost as go between in the Democratic Party.

Sure, I think I may see a Jewish president in my lifetime. Kamala is a Jamaican-Indian Vice President and we had Obama win with a Muslim father and name, but Obama was still a Christian as far as the Church and religion he claimed because even he understood religion mattered.

I think it's weird myself that it matters in the modern day, but it does. I didn't even think it mattered until Romney ran for president in 2012 and I suddenly have all these Republicans I chat with telling me his Mormon status is not something they like. I thought it was weird at the time. Then I look up our presidential history and find out we had one Catholic as president: JFK. He was the first and only Catholic with a huge Catholic following in the United States when Romney ran. I was raised Catholic. I would not even have thought being a Catholic was a negative in the United States, but apparently the majority Protestant United States has a problem with a Catholic president as idol worshipers or something because of all statues and Catholics pray to Mary, which most non-Catholics don't quite understand what that is about. I get it having been raised Catholic that you are not so much talking to Mary as the idea is that you pray to Mary and she talks to Jesus on your behalf, which I understand is a little weird when I grew old to understand this concept of thinking of Mary as up in Heaven with first hand contact with Jesus. I imagine it made sense to Romans who thought Mary is the Mother of Jesus and thus special to him, so she might convince him to help you out. Haha.

That's how uptight people can be about religion. Sure, it's not as bad as it was, but it's still there and will be there until some Jewish person breaks the barrier like Obama broke the barrier.

It should tell you something that we had a black president or half-black if you prefer before we had a Jewish or Mormon or non-Christian president in America though I guess Jefferson and Lincoln both did not claim any religion. It should tell you how serious America is about their religion or given Trump the appearance of religion because we all know Trump considers himself a God and I never seent that guy attend Church or talk about being Christian save when it makes him look good in public and I read his book The Art of the Deal. Not a damn mention of God in his book or his religious beliefs. You can't worship a god when you love yourself as much as Trump.

[River_Dog]

In a close election, yes, religion can make a difference, as can a lot of things. But I just don't see it being at the top of very many voters' list. If Donald Trump can cheat on multiple wives banging pornstars and that kind of behavior doesn't affect those of whom religion plays a big part of their lives, then I can't see it being a deal breaker with a candidate that they otherwise like.

Over the weekend, Biden spent time with his immediate family, who he regularly consults with when he's contemplating a big decision, and the obvious speculation was that either they were going to talk him into stepping down or that he was going to announce to them that he was doing so. Instead, they reportedly urged him to stay on, and felt that he should fire his advisors, holding them responsible for his face plant last Thursday:

Members of Joe Biden’s family privately trashed his top campaign advisers at Camp David this weekend, blaming them for the president’s flop in Thursday’s debate and urging Biden to fire or demote people in his political high command.

Among the family’s complaints about the debate practice: that Biden was not prepared to pivot more to go on the attack; that he was bogged down too much on defending his record rather than outlining a vision for a second term; and that he was over-worked and not well-rested.

https://www.politico.com/news/2024/06/3 ... e-00165970

If that report is true, then his family is in some serious denial if they're blaming anyone but Sleepy Joe for that performance. How in the hell can you blame his advisors for a weak, hoarse voice, or for failing to get words out of his mouth? It wouldn't have made any difference what the content of Biden's responses were if he couldn't verbalize a simple sentence. And over worked? I suppose that was possible, but he had secluded himself at Camp David a week before the debate with the intention of clearing his agenda so he could focus on preparing for the debate.

If Biden is being overworked by his staff, then it raises another question. Who's in charge? Doesn't Biden himself know the best way to prepare for a debate? This wasn't his first rodeo, so why didn't he say something like "you guys get out of here and let me work on my presentation"?

I'm not saying that his family should have talked him into stepping down, but blaming his aids for a performance that didn't even allow note cards is absurd.

[Aseahawkfan]

I think they are stuck with Biden. I can't see anyone else who can win.

Same as Republicans are stuck with Trump as they proved no one else could win as the Republicans want a rematch.

For whatever reason, the fates have chosen these two old men to oppose each other like some messed up movie.

[River_Dog]

I think they are stuck with Biden. I can't see anyone else who can win.

Same as Republicans are stuck with Trump as they proved no one else could win as the Republicans want a rematch.

For whatever reason, the fates have chosen these two old men to oppose each other like some messed up movie.

If Biden hasn't dropped out by now, after having had his heart-to-heart with his family this past weekend, then I think it's unlikely that he'll step down. The longer he stays in, the less likely he is to drop out.

One of the complaints Biden's family made was about the failure of the moderator to fact check Trump, that he was allowed to throw what ever chit on the wall he thought might stick and that it was up to Biden to call him out. I don't know of any debate, at least presidential debate, where there was someone fact checking what the candidates were saying. There have been other instances that I can recall where a candidate mis stated facts and it was up to the opposing candidate to call him out.

In 1976 during a televised debate, Gerald Ford made a false claim that Poland was not under Soviet domination, which drew a snicker out of Jimmy Carter and a stark glare from Ford, but once it was Carter's turn, he called him out. After the debate, Ford tried to spin his comment by saying that he meant that the will of the Polish people wasn't dominated by the Soviets, but the damage had been done.

I can't see things getting any better for Biden. He's been ducking the spotlight for the past couple of years because of these issues he's been having. He skipped a joint press conference with the President of France during the D-Day observance. The only appearances he makes is when he can have is notes or a teleprompter, and even then, he'll bungle things. His handlers have been keeping him under wraps.

The sad thing is that if it weren't for Biden, age and brain farts would be a huge issue for Trump. The man once had Paris in Germany and Colorado sharing a border with Mexico.

[Stream Hawk]

Things are really getting spicy now. The SC’s immunity ruling makes everything so much more important for the future and keeping Trump out of a monarchy. Sadly, IMO Biden seemed older than normal when he spoke tonight against the ruling. Fantastic. This is when we need a new leader that can actually speak to the American public. Panic level is pretty serious for this country and its future.

[c_hawkbob]

Things are really getting spicy now. The SC’s immunity ruling makes everything so much more important for the future and keeping Trump out of a monarchy. Sadly, IMO Biden seemed older than normal when he spoke tonight against the ruling. Fantastic. This is when we need a new leader that can actually speak to the American public. Panic level is pretty serious for this country and its future.

Well I guess 250 years was a decent run. Too bad this burgeoning oligarchy is what I have to leave my kids.

[Aseahawkfan]

President already had enormous immunity. The Supreme Court ruling changes nothing that did not exist before. It's Roberts and the Justices sending a clear message if you want to stick it to Trump, make sure you have a very precise case as presidents have a lot of leeway when in the office.

Presidents start wars that murder people. They sign drone assassination approvals absent due process. They are able to drop nuclear bombs. They can do executive orders to push through things with borderline illegality. Why are a bunch of people handwringing about a Supreme Court ruling that changed nothing that wasn't already there?

The only reason Nixon was hammered is Congress impeached him and voted to remove. The pardon was a protection from Federal prosecution.

Supreme Court ruling today was nothing more than a "If you want to prosecute a president, make sure it is something you can stick on them as they have a huge amount of leeway in carrying out the office." Always have had that leeway which is why Trump is the first president with a felony even though we know presidents have engaged in all types of bad behavior.

Why are you acting like this? Seriously, are you so uneducated on the history of the United States that this ruling seems like something unique? What about the historical actions of presidents makes you think what the Supreme Court did today is unique? Just ridiculous. Do more reading on what presidents have done and not been held accountable for. Trump is not even that high on the list of costing lives and real questionable actions.

I can't believe how badly educated our nation is on presidential history and our history in general.

[River_Dog]

President already had enormous immunity. The Supreme Court ruling changes nothing that did not exist before. It's Roberts and the Justices sending a clear message if you want to stick it to Trump, make sure you have a very precise case as presidents have a lot of leeway when in the office.

Presidents start wars that murder people. They sign drone assassination approvals absent due process. They are able to drop nuclear bombs. They can do executive orders to push through things with borderline illegality. Why are a bunch of people handwringing about a Supreme Court ruling that changed nothing that wasn't already there?

The only reason Nixon was hammered is Congress impeached him and voted to remove. The pardon was a protection from Federal prosecution.

Supreme Court ruling today was nothing more than a "If you want to prosecute a president, make sure it is something you can stick on them as they have a huge amount of leeway in carrying out the office." Always have had that leeway which is why Trump is the first president with a felony even though we know presidents have engaged in all types of bad behavior.

Why are you acting like this? Seriously, are you so uneducated on the history of the United States that this ruling seems like something unique? What about the historical actions of presidents makes you think what the Supreme Court did today is unique? Just ridiculous. Do more reading on what presidents have done and not been held accountable for. Trump is not even that high on the list of costing lives and real questionable actions.

I can't believe how badly educated our nation is on presidential history and our history in general.

Nixon was never impeached. The committee voted to approve several articles of impeachment but Tricky Dick resigned before it could be brought before the full House.

I actually agreed with the SCOTUS decision, that Trump isn't liable for 'official' acts as POTUS but that he is liable for unofficial acts even if he was in office at the time. To do so could open a Pandora's box. Without such protection, a person could have sued Obama for approving a drone strike that killed an innocent American. This SCOTUS is not in Trump's pocket.

IMO Trump's actions on Jan. 6th were not official acts and not covered by the SCOTUS decision.

[Aseahawkfan]

Nixon was never impeached. The committee voted to approve several articles of impeachment but Tricky Dick resigned before it could be brought before the full House.

I actually agreed with the SCOTUS decision, that Trump isn't liable for 'official' acts as POTUS but that he is liable for unofficial acts even if he was in office at the time. To do so could open a Pandora's box. Without such protection, a person could have sued Obama for approving a drone strike that killed an innocent American. This SCOTUS is not in Trump's pocket.

IMO Trump's actions on Jan. 6th were not official acts and not covered by the SCOTUS decision.

I did some reading recently. You are right, Nixon did resign to avoid impeachment. He received a pardon but was not really brought to trial because he resigned, the pardon just covered his bases.

I see the Dems handwringing over this and it literally changed nothing that wasn't already there. I keep trying to find what it actually changed and no Democrat or Republican can list what actually changed. The Dems are making up stuff that might fall under this vague ruling, when it was always vague and always this way. Because nether party has tried this hard to prosecute a sitting president and the Dems are mad because they can't get their way even while the Dems were calling Republicans names and doing exactly what Republicans are doing now when they were bending over backwards to make excuses for Bill Clinton when he lied on the witness stand on TV committing perjury.

Now that it's a Republican they hate, Democrats all in a tizzy over rulings that are vague as they always were in regards to presidential immunity. All that ruling says when you parse it is, "Make sure it's something you can stick on the president and not some act that we already know falls under the usual executive privilege protections." Now they're making stuff up like Trump can shoot someone and other stupid comparisons making themselves look dumb.

Politicians period have enormous protections. Kennedy's did all kinds of messed up stuff and covered it up. Both parties been doing this for ages, now the Dems are acting like this ruling is something new. Just now suddenly presidential protection have somehow changed. No examples or specifics, but they just know it changed because they were told it changed. Just ridiculous.

I don't know about you, but it is utterly infuriating to have your country look this stupid. I think that is what makes me hate Trump the most. It's like he's doing all this stuff like some jackass child rubbing it all in everyone's face and all the other children are joining in the rage, crazy, dumb fest over things that don't matter or haven't really changed. Trump is causing America to look like some whack job weird country that usually is hidden.

It's tiresome. I really hope he doesn't win so I don't have to hear this "end of America, we're all doomedm Democracy is over" garbage for another four years.

[River_Dog]

I did some reading recently. You are right, Nixon did resign to avoid impeachment. He received a pardon but was not really brought to trial because he resigned, the pardon just covered his bases.

I remember it as if it happened yesterday. Nixon almost certainly would have been impeached had he not resigned ahead of a vote by the full House, which needed just a simple majority, and it was controlled by the Dems. A delegation of Republicans, which included Barry Goldwater, the R nominee in 1964, met with Nixon. It was Goldwater that told him that in a Senate trial requiring 2/3's majority, that a smart lawyer could get him off on two of the three charges, but to the obstruction of justice charge, Goldwater said "I've been leaning that way (meaning guilty) myself." Nixon resigned the next day.

Politicians period have enormous protections. Kennedy's did all kinds of messed up stuff and covered it up. Both parties been doing this for ages, now the Dems are acting like this ruling is something new. Just now suddenly presidential protection have somehow changed. No examples or specifics, but they just know it changed because they were told it changed. Just ridiculous.

It wasn't covered up as much as it was ignored. Up until the Vietnam/Watergate era, the press did what it was told and didn't report on certain things about the POTUS. The press was instructed not to take any photographs of FDR in a wheelchair, being lifted in or out of a car, and to a person, they dutifully complied. The same was true of Kennedy. The press knew all about his almost nightly infidelities, but they didn't report on it.

I don't know about you, but it is utterly infuriating to have your country look this stupid. I think that is what makes me hate Trump the most. It's like he's doing all this stuff like some jackass child rubbing it all in everyone's face and all the other children are joining in the rage, crazy, dumb fest over things that don't matter or haven't really changed. Trump is causing America to look like some whack job weird country that usually is hidden.

It's tiresome. I really hope he doesn't win so I don't have to hear this "end of America, we're all doomedm Democracy is over" garbage for another four years.

It all goes back to what I've been complaining about for the past couple of decades. The American public is comprised of a pack of morons. I can remember 20 years or so a poll showing that 29% of young adults couldn't locate the Pacific Ocean on a map. It's this level of stupidity that has gotten us into trouble. Someone like Donald Trump shouldn't be able to get within spitting distance of the White House. Americans don't know how to separate fact from fiction, the wheat from the chaff.

[Aseahawkfan]

How are the Congressional elections looking I'm wondering. Everyone is focused on president, but in this election if Congress flips bad for whoever wins President would lead to some real crazy fights. If Congress flips Democrat if Trump wins, he's going to spend two years getting hammered. If Congress flips Republican and Biden wins, he'll probably spend his term getting investigated or blocked on everything. Are we going to stay split or is Congress going to flip all blue or all red?

[River_Dog]

How are the Congressional elections looking I'm wondering. Everyone is focused on president, but in this election if Congress flips bad for whoever wins President would lead to some real crazy fights. If Congress flips Democrat if Trump wins, he's going to spend two years getting hammered. If Congress flips Republican and Biden wins, he'll probably spend his term getting investigated or blocked on everything. Are we going to stay split or is Congress going to flip all blue or all red?

I haven't paid much attention to them. I'm not even sure how many of the nominees have been determined. The primary in our state isn't until August.

But from reading a number of articles on my news feed, the Dems are worried that Biden's weak performance could hurt them in down ballot races. It's a little hard to tell from these news feeds I'm getting as the algorithms tend to feed you stories related to the ones you're clicking on, so it may not be an objective, unbiased sampling.

What I am seeing is that post debate, Trump is leading in all the swing states and even some states that were assumed to be Democratic, like NH and NM, are starting to wobble. This might not be as close of an election that we've been assuming.

I'm also seeing several stories claiming that Biden has been isolated by an inner circle of advisors who are feeding him very controlled, filtered information, based mostly on things he likes to see and not showing him info that might upset him. Some have characterized this filtering of info as a Rorschach test. This theory seems to have some credibility as Biden's immediate family blamed his poor debate performance on his advisors and had urged him to fire them.

There's a lot of smoke coming out of the Oval Office right now.

[River_Dog]

Here's another fact that would tend to support the contention that Biden is being tightly controlled by his staffers:

The Associated Press reported that he (Biden) has given 36 news conferences since taking office, lower than any since Ronald Reagan at the same point in his presidency. Martha Joynt Kumar, director of the White House Transition Project, told the AP that Biden has conducted 128 interviews. At the same point in their presidencies Donald Trump had done 369 and Barack Obama 497.

Here's another factoid, cut and pasted from a WSJ article published a couple weeks before the debate:

He (Biden) has had fewer small meetings with lawmakers as his term has gone on, visitor logs show. During his first year in office, even with pandemic restrictions, he held more than three dozen meetings of fewer than 20 lawmakers in the West Wing. That number fell to roughly two dozen in his second year, and about a dozen in his third year.

It's blatantly obvious that the White House staff is scared to death that Biden's cognitive decline will be exposed if he has to go in front of others in an unscripted situation as he had to during the debate.

[Aseahawkfan]

I haven't paid much attention to them. I'm not even sure how many of the nominees have been determined. The primary in our state isn't until August.

But from reading a number of articles on my news feed, the Dems are worried that Biden's weak performance could hurt them in down ballot races. It's a little hard to tell from these news feeds I'm getting as the algorithms tend to feed you stories related to the ones you're clicking on, so it may not be an objective, unbiased sampling.

What I am seeing is that post debate, Trump is leading in all the swing states and even some states that were assumed to be Democratic, like NH and NM, are starting to wobble. This might not be as close of an election that we've been assuming.

I'm also seeing several stories claiming that Biden has been isolated by an inner circle of advisors who are feeding him very controlled, filtered information, based mostly on things he likes to see and not showing him info that might upset him. Some have characterized this filtering of info as a Rorschach test. This theory seems to have some credibility as Biden's immediate family blamed his poor debate performance on his advisors and had urged him to fire them.

There's a lot of smoke coming out of the Oval Office right now.

If Congress flips badly, we all know what that will look like if opposite to the president.

Doesn't surprise me. We have two parties who never look in the mirror at how crazy they look. Democrats think they are all the sane educated folk fighting for equality and the working man even though their party now seems to be oriented to satisfy elite academics and environmentalists and alphabet sexuality folks more concerned about making sure everyone whether they can afford it or not moves to renewable energy, accepts the transgender movement, and follows every bit of social science or extreme left academic viewpoint whether it's good for people or not. Social science is not hard science and it has very low quality in its conclusions more often driven by unscientific agendas driven by ideology more than good rigorous use of the scientific process.

It is not the America we grew up in. Feels like Rome as its power was fracturing and the people were indulgent, spoiled folk having lived too long an easy life.

[River_Dog]

If Congress flips badly, we all know what that will look like if opposite to the president.

Doesn't surprise me. We have two parties who never look in the mirror at how crazy they look. Democrats think they are all the sane educated folk fighting for equality and the working man even though their party now seems to be oriented to satisfy elite academics and environmentalists and alphabet sexuality folks more concerned about making sure everyone whether they can afford it or not moves to renewable energy, accepts the transgender movement, and follows every bit of social science or extreme left academic viewpoint whether it's good for people or not. Social science is not hard science and it has very low quality in its conclusions more often driven by unscientific agendas driven by ideology more than good rigorous use of the scientific process.

It is not the America we grew up in. Feels like Rome as its power was fracturing and the people were indulgent, spoiled folk having lived too long an easy life.

The Dems in this state sure as hell care more about environmentalism than they do the working stiffs. Middle- and lower-class folks can't afford a new Tesla, and the working folks out here don't have mass transit to use, yet they've jacked up the price of gas by $.50/gallon and don't seem to care. That's one of the things that's driving this revolt, that the Dems are putting such a wide gap between themselves and rational conservatives that they're driving moderates to Trump and his pack of lunatics by pursuing these idiotic policies, like student loan forgiveness, reparations, cold turkey environmentalism, etc. Personally, I feel as if I've been given no option. It's like choosing between life in the frying pan or life in the fire.

Back to topic. The White House is in full retreat, pumping out some truly laughable excuses. The press secretary claims that Biden had a cold, although nothing of the ailment was known before the debate and he wasn't seen by a doctor for it until 4 days after. Biden himself claims to have been suffering from jet lag even though he was at Camp David for 6 days and had returned from his most recent overseas trip 12 days before the debate. Two weeks to recover from jet lag? Biden says that he's being overworked, that he needs more sleep. Those kinds of admissions aren't going to alleviate voter concerns about his age and flies in the face of supporters who use Biden's 'aggressive schedule' as evidence that he is up to the job.

This thing isn't going away, and I'm getting the feeling that it's reaching a critical mass, and that Biden will eventually step down. Every time he goes off script, he bungles something. He's always been subject to these gaffes, but not at this frequency. That's nothing new to a lot of us as he's been doing it quite often over the past year, but now, every slip up will be magnified by the press. Not much is being said out of the Trump campaign. Maybe they're staying quiet because they're hoping that Sleepy Joe stays in, that their best chance of winning is against Biden.

[River_Dog]

Biden had a short, 22-minute interview with George Stephanopoulos, a friendly face who used to be Bill Clinton's press secretary and advisor. Predictably, it went well as it was obviously heavily scripted. Lindsey Graham deridingly called it a "therapy session". But it did nothing to quell the anxiety many Democrats are feeling. Indeed, two more Democratic Congressmen came out and called on Biden to step down, bringing the total to 5 Dem Congressmen who have publicly gone on record as saying that Biden should step down.

Although Biden was obviously briefed and well prepared, to Stephanopoulos's credit, he asked some very tough questions, pointing out that no POTUS has ever been re-elected with a popularity rating as low as Biden's 36%. He also repeatedly pushed Biden about taking an independent medical exam that included a cognitive test, of which Biden steadfastly refused.

Some are comparing this situation with Biden's refusal to step down to Ruth Bader Ginsberg, at 81 years old in 2014, same age as Biden is now, and who had multiple health issues yet refused to retire from SCOTUS when the Dems controlled both the White House and the Senate as many were encouraging her to do. Had she followed their advice, instead of Amy Comey Barrett, Merrick Garland would be sitting on the nation's highest bench.

[Aseahawkfan]

They might get rid of Biden. The momentum to push him out seems to be rising. I wonder who will replace him. Sounds like Kamala is going to get her shot to be the first female president against Trump.

[River Dog]

They might get rid of Biden. The momentum to push him out seems to be rising. I wonder who will replace him. Sounds like Kamala is going to get her shot to be the first female president against Trump.

I've been going back and forth. For the past week, I had thought that it was unavoidable that he'd concede, that senior Dems would have a meeting with Sleepy Joe and force him to step down, similar to what happened in 1974 when a defiant Richard Nixon was talked to resigning by Barry Goldwater and other bigtime R's. But the further we get into summer, the more likely he is to remain. Especially after the events of this weekend, that the only chance for the Dems to beat him is for Biden to drop out.

The Democrats have only themselves to blame for this dilemma. For years, they've scoffed at the many stories coming out of the White House about Biden's obvious mental decline, wrote them off as all a bunch of partisan malarky. The White House staff has been hiding him and his problems from the public for years. And while the conservative press has been reporting on his age-related problems, the mostly liberal mainstream news saw the same thing but did not report on it, did not ask the tough questions, until it was unavoidable. Now, they're all over the story like a chicken on a June bug. They should have taken on this issue 6 months ago, before the primaries. But somewhat understandably, they all told themselves that things would be alright. Having these kinds of conversations are extremely difficult to do even with close family and friends, and this was the President of the United States.

Most of the polling data shows Trump leading by a healthy margin. Trump is ahead in all the battleground states and is even making headway into some blue states like NM and NJ. If Biden stays in the race, he'll get beat badly, likely take some Dems with him.

[River Dog]

Things are starting to heat up. The Biden campaign and those who support him are trying to expedite the nomination ahead of the convention, perhaps as early as next week. A lot of Dems are pushing back as more and more of them have come out and called on Biden to step down, at least 20 so far. The word is that Chuck Schumer, the Senate Majority Leader, told Biden privately that he should step down, and since he hasn't come out and denied it, one would have to give credence to it. Most of those who have come out publicly are from purple districts where they're worried about Biden dragging them down to defeat, too.

At this point, Joe Biden is in serious denial. He's convinced himself, or others in his family have convinced him, that his age isn't a problem even though surveys show that 80% of all voters and 69% of Dems think that he's too old. He made another big gaffe at a union convention the other day, misreading his teleprompter saying that under his plan, rents won't go up more than $55 when it should have been 5%. It's clear that he is not in control, that his handlers are running the country.

I keep going back and forth on this, whether or not Biden is going to step down, but I'm getting the sense that it's starting to come to a head. I don't know how much more evidence is necessary for people to conclude that he's too old and will get beaten in November if he doesn't step down.

Edit: And now, they've disclosed that Biden just tested positive for Covid, canceling an event in Las Vegas. He looks like death warmed over walking up the stairs of AF1. I'm saying that Biden steps down before the end of next week.

[Aseahawkfan]

Yep. Looks like Biden is cooked. He did the job to get through the pandemic, so he has his place. Country wants a more active and stronger appearing president in these times and likely better at making sure the economy doesn't go off track.

[River Dog]

Yep. Looks like Biden is cooked. He did the job to get through the pandemic, so he has his place. Country wants a more active and stronger appearing president in these times and likely better at making sure the economy doesn't go off track.

Yeah, it's not just a bunch of 'haters' that are pining for Biden to step down. It's coming from the highest ranks of the Democratic party, people like Chuck Schumer, Adam Schiff, and Nancy Pelosi, along with major donors who are pulling their money from the Biden campaign. And if anyone has any doubt that Biden's chances of winning is getting worse, the fact that the Republicans have been pulling in their guns is very telling. They want Biden to stay in.

The recent graphics for the Dems are just horrible. A weak, frail Biden gingerly walking up and down the stairs to AF1 while a defiant Trump sports a huge bandage over his right ear as a result of an attempted assassination while accepting the nomination. And now, when Biden should be on the campaign trail hitting back, he's holed up in isolation battling Covid.

I've been reading reports that Biden has been a little easier to talk to, that his hard exterior shell is starting to crack a little. So we'll see how good my instincts are. I say that Biden drops out by the end of next week at the latest. It could happen any day. The earlier, the better as far as I'm concerned. No way do I want another 4 years of the Orange Baboon.

[Aseahawkfan]

Yeah, it's not just a bunch of 'haters' that are pining for Biden to step down. It's coming from the highest ranks of the Democratic party, people like Chuck Schumer, Adam Schiff, and Nancy Pelosi, along with major donors who are pulling their money from the Biden campaign. And if anyone has any doubt that Biden's chances of winning is getting worse, the fact that the Republicans have been pulling in their guns is very telling. They want Biden to stay in.

The recent graphics for the Dems are just horrible. A weak, frail Biden gingerly walking up and down the stairs to AF1 while a defiant Trump sports a huge bandage over his right ear as a result of an attempted assassination while accepting the nomination. And now, when Biden should be on the campaign trail hitting back, he's holed up in isolation battling Covid.

I've been reading reports that Biden has been a little easier to talk to, that his hard exterior shell is starting to crack a little. So we'll see how good my instincts are. I say that Biden drops out by the end of next week at the latest. It could happen any day. The earlier, the better as far as I'm concerned. No way do I want another 4 years of the Orange Baboon.

I think with Trump's VP pick, that is an inevitability. I don't know who the Dems could field with that appeal to the swing voters in the Rust Belt and other working class states. Dems are so disconnected from working people at this point.

They have their base of old Democrats who are driven mostly by hate towards Republicans, but the younger crowd is going to listen to strong messaging from Trump and Vance. I listened to that Vance speech. That youthful energy and his call to working class Americans sounds more like a Democrat than a Republican.

The whole messaging of Trump is weirdly like a Democrat. We won't send your kids to war. We're going to fight for working class Americans. God and country. Other than the God and country, most Republicans do not talk like this. It must be really throwing the Democrats off to have Trump and Vance using usual Democratic messaging to voters. Even their immigrant arguments are about job protection and protecting working class voters from corporations outsourcing to China. Trump is talking tariffs as well to protect working class voters from cheap Chinese products competing with American made products to keep more American jobs at home.

I always knew Trump was more of a Democrat than a Republican in his platform, which is why he is attracting the voter base he is attracting. It's very different messaging than the usual Republican messaging.

The left tends to focus heavily on his immigrant talk and anything that can make Trump look bad, but if you listen to his actual speeches and his platform it is surprisingly pro-worker.

Vance was even saying he supports collective bargaining. When is the last time you heard a Republican support collective bargaining? Almost never.

[River Dog]

I think with Trump's VP pick, that is an inevitability. I don't know who the Dems could field with that appeal to the swing voters in the Rust Belt and other working class states. Dems are so disconnected from working people at this point.

They have their base of old Democrats who are driven mostly by hate towards Republicans, but the younger crowd is going to listen to strong messaging from Trump and Vance. I listened to that Vance speech. That youthful energy and his call to working class Americans sounds more like a Democrat than a Republican.

The whole messaging of Trump is weirdly like a Democrat. We won't send your kids to war. We're going to fight for working class Americans. God and country. Other than the God and country, most Republicans do not talk like this. It must be really throwing the Democrats off to have Trump and Vance using usual Democratic messaging to voters. Even their immigrant arguments are about job protection and protecting working class voters from corporations outsourcing to China. Trump is talking tariffs as well to protect working class voters from cheap Chinese products competing with American made products to keep more American jobs at home.

I always knew Trump was more of a Democrat than a Republican in his platform, which is why he is attracting the voter base he is attracting. It's very different messaging than the usual Republican messaging.

The left tends to focus heavily on his immigrant talk and anything that can make Trump look bad, but if you listen to his actual speeches and his platform it is surprisingly pro-worker.

Vance was even saying he supports collective bargaining. When is the last time you heard a Republican support collective bargaining? Almost never.

We need to analyze some of the things in Trump's platform from an economic standpoint. First, his nationalism/isolationism might be great to attract votes from people who see China as an existential threat, but his plan to raise tariffs is going to bring back inflation. He keeps talking about the jobs that go overseas while not recognizing the fact that we have far many more job openings than we do unemployed. If China can make lawn chairs cheaper than we can here, let them sell them here. Besides, having a solid economic relationship with them will reduce the likelihood of a military conflict.

His anti-immigration rhetoric will do the same thing. Love them or hate them, immigrants, including illegal immigrants, are for the most part wage earners who contribute to our work force while not taking a whole lot in benefits as they tend to be younger than native born Americans. That, too, is going to be inflationary as it will further constrict the labor market and cause wages to rise.

Even if I sat aside his personality, I could not accept his politics.